Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[BlondeLombax]

So...Dark Pit's inclusion aside, by this argument...Kid Icarus is still overrepresented considering it has
5 items,
2 assist trophies(which isn't excessive but bigger series like Donkey Kong don't even have a single one),
The sheer amount of effort put into Palutena's Guidance
A frankly ridiculous 17 Smash Run enemies,
2 brand new stages,
1 returning stage,
11 trophies
1 Mii outfit
And the only character outside the Miis to get completly different custom moves?

All this for a three game series if we're generous and not pointing out literally everything included is representing Uprising primarily.

I remember reading somewhere that Smash on 3DS utilized an engine similar to that of Uprising, and since it they were both SORA games, they had access to the models from the game. Therefore, I think that it's less out of bias and more out of convenience, but then again, I'm the kind of guy who never pays attention to what's going on in the community.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Sakurai did go on record saying that the large amount of KI enemies and trophies were because he could get them super easily.

 

[YoshiandToad]

They were done by the same team and they had a lot of the models already in hand so it's not really suprise or a big effort that it got items, assists, enemies, trophies or a Smash Taunt.

Also, why are we arguing Palutena's customs were special treatment? Samus was the only character with two Final Smashes in Brawl and Zelda was the only transforming character in Melee. There is always a character who "shows off" a mechanic of the game and Palutena was simply ore suited to it than the other newcomers.

I'd argue that the Mii fighters, who's entire point is being customisable are far more suited to show off custom moves than Palutena who seemed to get it "just cos".

Fair point with the porting of Smash Run enemies and trophies for the 3DS but it's not like the items and assists didn't take a heap of work to make still and Palutena's guidance is still most likely a hefty undertakings.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Is there anyone who initially disliked a character but know loves them?

I definitely warmed up to R.O.B and Wolf after the initial chaos of their unofficial reveals blew over, but it's more that I just think they're cool enough now, I've never played them on a regular basis.

There are characters who I didn't have much of a relation to that I've ended up loving, like Captain Falcon and Ike, but no one has really made the jump from disliked to loved for me. My initial opinion on a character tends to stick, largely because I always take a character's origins and design into equation, so moveset alone can't really win me over. This goes both ways of course, I'll never play Cloud regularly despite his fun moveset, because I just don't dig the character himself, but I still love playing as Dedede despite being absolutely trash with him, just because I'm a big Kirby fan.

 

[osby]

I'd argue that the Mii fighters, who's entire point is being customisable are far more suited to show off custom moves than Palutena who seemed to get it "just cos".

Fair point with the porting of Smash Run enemies and trophies for the 3DS but it's not like the items and assists didn't take a heap of work to make still and Palutena's guidance is still most likely a hefty undertakings.

Palutena got them as a actual character, rather than an avatar one, but I get why people found it as extra.

Items and assists did take work time but far less than other ones with no models or animations and Sakurai even admitted he designed some of them in Uprising with Smash in mind (understandably, they work extremely similar).

Palutena's Guidance was only voice acting and writing. There's not much in the game that needs staff doing this. Also if it wasn't Kid Icarus, it would be... Fire Emblem? Nintendo doesn't have much history of substantial voice acting apart from those two.

 

[Polan]

everyone was expecting palutena's guidance to be in the game and if they for some reason weren't in, people would have probably been pissed. but they happened so now its more concrete proof of sakurai bias™.

 

[osby]

everyone was expecting palutena's guidance to be in the game and if they for some reason weren't in, people would have probably been pissed. but they happened so now its more concrete proof of sakurai bias™.

Well, I wouldn't object changing it (if we are definitely going to get something similar to it) with a different series, if it's going to make sense. But Kid Icarus's voice actors and actresses will likely return, so there's not much point in changing what is essentially one of the most entertaining voice acting in the game.

Writing wasn't stellar but it was one of the rare cases I prefered English dub over the original.

 

[NintendoKnight]

I missed the whole clone debacle? Dagnabbit. I even drew an entire comic over it:

Spoiler: Took me 'bout an hour

That being said, the discussion of Emily's leaks and the stuff about The Pokemon games is highly interesting. Not that I'd be super happy with another Kanto remake. HOWEVER, after Fire Red and Leaf Green added a ton of content, I'm sure GameFreak (though nostalgia pander for real) knows what they're doing gameplay-wise.

Leak also states Pokemon Go Pokeball throwing gimmick

...Yeah, I don't actually buy that. How would that work with the Switch when it's docked?

Either way, we won't know anything for sure until E3 rolls around.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

everyone was expecting palutena's guidance to be in the game and if they for some reason weren't in, people would have probably been pissed. but they happened so now its more concrete proof of sakurai bias™.

Part of the reason people were expecting it was because Sakurai was director to be fair, had the director been someone with absolutely no relation to Kid Icarus I'm not sure we'd have gotten it.

 

[BlondeLombax]

I missed the whole clone debacle? Dagnabbit. I even drew an entire comic over it:

Spoiler: Took me 'bout an hour

That being said, the discussion of Emily's leaks and the stuff about The Pokemon games is highly interesting. Not that I'd be super happy with another Kanto remake. HOWEVER, after Fire Red and Leaf Green added a ton of content, I'm sure GameFreak (though nostalgia pander for real) knows what they're doing gameplay-wise.

That's a creative way of tackling the subject, calling out the existence of clones in actual fighting games (which still eventually become unique from the original characters that they're based off of). Nicely done!
And yeah, I'm more than positive that the Pokemon leak is fake, especially considering the Go-inspired mechanics. I've witnessed a few fakes here and there, and I never believe anything until the truth gets out there for good, so I'll just keep my distance for now.

 

[NintendoKnight]

That's a creative way of tackling the subject, calling out the existence of clones in actual fighting games (which still eventually become unique from the original characters that they're based off of). Nicely done!
And yeah, I'm more than positive that the Pokemon leak is fake, especially considering the Go-inspired mechanics. I've witnessed a few fakes here and there, and I never believe anything until the truth gets out there for good, so I'll just keep my distance for now.

Thank you, good sir.

I found it interesting that of all the fighting games that have clones, Smash seems to be the only one that gets hate for it. If anything, clones make Smash feel like a proper fighting game.

Edit: Though, to be fair, other fighting games have a bit more variation than what Dark Pit, Lucina, and Meleedorf got. Here's hoping Smash Switch kicks it up several notches.

 

[TheSpitefulWolf]

Sun and Moon was such a great step in the right direction and really changed up the series, please for the love of god don't bring us back to Kanto game freak

yes, such a good step, like getting rid of the national dex

and also deciding that diamond/pearl/platinum battle speeds were just peachy and needed a second try. **** that ****. why do they insist on making everything so slow nowadays, black/white had perfect battle speeds.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

yes, such a good step, like getting rid of the national dex

and also deciding that diamond/pearl/platinum battle speeds were just peachy and needed a second try. **** that ****. why do they insist on making everything so slow nowadays, black/white had perfect battle speeds.

I think the slow battles were a side effect of their instance on using way too high poly models in battles at all times.
Honestly, in double battles it chugs harder than college students at a keg party.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Is there anyone who initially disliked a character but know loves them?

If pre-reveal to post reveal: Bowser Jr. I was pretty concerned about a paintbrush set. Seemed a bit dull and from an era gone by. The fans kept spouting about how cool it'd be to transform into Shadow Mario.

When transforming into a character already on the roster is considered the character in questions biggest draw you can bet I was unenthusiastic at the premise.

Luckily the Koopa Mech was chosen instead. Combine that with the Koopalings and Sakurai managed to turn my most disliked character idea into one of my most loved Sm4sh newcomers.

If we're on about anyone I disliked post trailer reveal and then played to warm up to them Wii Fit Trainer is about the only one I flipped from negative to positive.

 

[Deleted member]

I agree with what Tree Gelbman said about how Sakurai needs to focus more on Palutena being fun to play. Palutena just feels a bit too sluggish and unoriginal in my taste. But..... cutting Dark Pit will remove the diversity that the game feels. I think that there could be cuts, but it will be a mistake to cut too many. Plus, Kid Icarus is Sakurai's franchise and whenever it is alive or dead in the future is unknown, and I think Smash Bros. representing three characters for it is great.

That is my stance.

 

[osby]

I agree with what Tree Gelbman said about how Sakurai needs to focus more on Palutena being fun to play. Palutena just feels a bit too sluggish and unoriginal in my taste. But..... cutting Dark Pit will remove the diversity that the game feels. I think that there could be cuts, but it will be a mistake to cut too many. Plus, Kid Icarus is Sakurai's franchise and whenever it is alive or dead in the future is unknown, and I think Smash Bros. representing three characters for it is great.

That is my stance.

I think Palutena still a blast to play but yeah, balancing all of her moveset around Lightweight wasn't a good idea, since people just didn't add it. She's fairly unique, with her sweeping attacks, shield dash and up smash. I just hope next game gives her specials that actually add to each other, rather than just being useful tools on themselves.

 

[Deleted member]

I missed the whole clone debacle? Dagnabbit. I even drew an entire comic over it:

Spoiler: Took me 'bout an hour

That being said, the discussion of Emily's leaks and the stuff about The Pokemon games is highly interesting. Not that I'd be super happy with another Kanto remake. HOWEVER, after Fire Red and Leaf Green added a ton of content, I'm sure GameFreak (though nostalgia pander for real) knows what they're doing gameplay-wise.



...Yeah, I don't actually buy that. How would that work with the Switch when it's docked?

Either way, we won't know anything for sure until E3 rolls around.

This comic is so good because it is so true. Everyone likes to complain about Smash Bros. clones rather than other fighting game clones, but that is because Smash Bros. has a larger fanbase and all have more different opinion than other fighting game ones in general for Smash Bros. Considering Smash Bros. has more characters and more character potential than most fighting games. I said most.

 

[osby]

I missed the whole clone debacle? Dagnabbit. I even drew an entire comic over it:

Spoiler: Took me 'bout an hour

That being said, the discussion of Emily's leaks and the stuff about The Pokemon games is highly interesting. Not that I'd be super happy with another Kanto remake. HOWEVER, after Fire Red and Leaf Green added a ton of content, I'm sure GameFreak (though nostalgia pander for real) knows what they're doing gameplay-wise.



...Yeah, I don't actually buy that. How would that work with the Switch when it's docked?

Either way, we won't know anything for sure until E3 rolls around.

Also other fighting games add characters just to expand the roster or giving alternate approaches to commonly used characters. Smash clones (and semi-clones) sometimes is there to just add that character as fanservice, like Toon Link or Lucina.

 

[T-Donor66]

So did you all hear that Smash 5 will be playable June 16-17 in certain Japanese stores? Could we maybe be seeing something like this in other parts of the world? https://twitter.com/Nintendo/status/996648239846768641?s=20

 

[Staarih]

Smash uses characters from other franchises rather than having its own, original ones. Those characters, of course, have pre-existing fans within their own circles who know what the characters are capable of, so to see them represented as clones in Smash will understandably upset some people. Other fighting games’ clones are essentially all new characters so it doesn’t really bother many people.

So did you all hear that Smash 5 will be playable June 16-17 in certain Japanese stores? https://twitter.com/Nintendo/status/996648239846768641?s=20

Cool, it’ll probably be a similar build used for the E3 tournament? We’re bound to get something similar in the west as well, and definitely some type of demo or ”testfire” before release at least, if something like Aces of all things is having one (and Smash 3DS got one).

 

[Zinith]

So did you all hear that Smash 5 will be playable June 16-17 in certain Japanese stores? https://twitter.com/Nintendo/status/996648239846768641?s=20

That is like Exhibit A for Smash being ready by this year. It looks like there's not gonna be a delay this time around

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Same here. Considering my most wanted are Xenoblade, Fire Emblem and Zelda characters. Have little hope for Zelda characters and Xeno/FE will get the "more anime >" crowd in a frenzy.

But we already have enough anime characters as it is!

The clones last game were Lucina, an extremely popular character in her home franchise.

Dr. Mario, a character from a franchise and spin-off that Nintendo used as recently as 2015. Just 3 years ago.

And Dark Pit, who is really the only divisive character from a series with an uncertain future.

Dark Pit is the only one I'm worried about and even as someone who liked Kid Icarus Uprising. Oh well. No big loss.

Dr. Mario was already cut in Brawl due to low priority, so he could get cut again in Smash Switch for the same reason.

 

[Kamikazek]

The "think of how silly it would be if other fighting games treated clones like Smash" points are really weird to me because waaaay back when I actually followed Street Fighter fandom in the late 90s they were. There were very vocal portions of the fanbase who hated clones, while others were pro clone or just didn't care. Characters like Sakura and Sean who really only had special moves and general design/story aspects in common with existing characters got a bunch of backlash. Speaking of, there was also endless bickering about what exactly constituted a "clone" and whether Sakura and Dan were clones, semi-clones or not clones at all of Ryu was a hotly debated topic. When I first got into Smash fandom it felt right at home with my SF experience in terms of clone discussion.

And Mortal Kombat had a similar deal going on with all the Ninjas and Ermacs. And KoF with all the literal kyo clones lol.

I've been almost completely out of the loop on traditional fighters for almost 20 years (sweet Jesus) though so from what people here are saying I guess that's changed? I'm couldn't say why though. But this is by no means something that has only happened in Smash fandom.





(Also for the record I was pro clones then and I'm pro clones now)

 

[Guybrush20X6]

BTW, is anyone going to E3?

If so are you prepared for the barrage of questions that we all sorta know the answers to but need confirmation on that'll follow?

Things like "wavedashing?", "can Ice Climbers chain grab?" "was Helix an assist trophy?"

 

[Cosmic77]

So did you all hear that Smash 5 will be playable June 16-17 in certain Japanese stores? Could we maybe be seeing something like this in other parts of the world? https://twitter.com/Nintendo/status/996648239846768641?s=20

Welp, time to wait in line at Best Buy for half an hour so I can beat everyone with one of the most insulting newcomers.

 

[Pazzo.]

Sakurai has a bias, but not in the way you think.

His bias is towards content. If he has the chance to add more content, he will. If that avatable content is Mario, Kirby, Kid Icarus, or even Fire Emblem, he'll want to add it.

He hasn't worked on any Switch games, so don't expect any sort of bias towards his undeveloped Switch game.

 

[monadoboy]

And yeah, I'm more than positive that the Pokemon leak is fake,

https://twitter.com/pixelpar/status/996699426600247297?s=21
Seems like the Pokemon leak is real.

So did you all hear that Smash 5 will be playable June 16-17 in certain Japanese stores? Could we maybe be seeing something like this in other parts of the world? https://twitter.com/Nintendo/status/996648239846768641?s=20

Still hoping for a testfire/punch (test Smash?) like Splatoon and ARMS.

 

[Dr. Jojo Phantasma]

https://twitter.com/pixelpar/status/996699426600247297?s=21
Seems like the Pokemon leak is real

That settles that then. Being a Kanto remake/reimaging helps the Puff's chances to not be low priority.

 

[Cosmic77]

Sakurai has a bias, but not in the way you think.

His bias is towards content. If he has the chance to add more content, he will. If that avatable content is Mario, Kirby, Kid Icarus, or even Fire Emblem, he'll want to add it.

He hasn't worked on any Switch games, so don't expect any sort of bias towards his undeveloped Switch game.

If Sakurai thinks he's being biased towards modern Kirby content, then by all means, I want him to be even MORE biased.


Saying that Sakurai's bias is adding new content is a little too broad, especially if you're discussing Smash 4. Compare the treatment Donkey Kong got in Smash to KI. Both were in a fairly similar position back during the beginning of Smash 4's development. Both had made a recent comeback (DKCR 2010 and KI:U 2012), and the Smash fanbase vocalized wanting more content from both series. One series got milked, the other got curb stomped.

Now I can't get mad at Sakurai for not including a third DK newcomer in Smash 4, as Returns didn't really feature anyone aside from DK and Diddy (I guess Cranky would've worked, but I can see why Sakurai may have hesitated. Cranky probably needed a larger role like he had in TF). Regardless, Sakurai had plenty of material to work with to represent the DK series in other ways. The series only got a single new stage, no Assist Trophies, no items, a handful of trophies, and two remixes. Meanwhile, KI got two new stages, two Assist Trophies, about five or six items, an insane amount of trophies in the 3DS version, and four remixes.

Obviously Sakurai wants to add more content, but he doesn't always distribute the new content fairly. I know it's difficult to show blatant attention to every franchise, but the lack of love given to the iconic DK series after an incredible game like Returns is just abysmal. Seeing a niche series like KI get almost three times as much new content just adds insult to injury.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

https://twitter.com/pixelpar/status/996699426600247297?s=21
Seems like the Pokemon leak is real.



Still hoping for a testfire/punch (test Smash?) like Splatoon and ARMS.

There's still the chance that they won't be the ones they use for the game take the rights to them anyway as they've been known to do that before.
That said, looks like a new Kanto game on some kind is the way they're going.

That settles that then. Being a Kanto remake/reimaging helps the Puff's chances to not be low priority.

Still don't think that was an issue in the first place.

And now come the people saying Lucario and Greninja will be cut.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I can't see how you make Eevee a playable character, tbh. Even if you brought transformations back

Eevee's situation is a lot like what Lycanroc has to deal with. Eevee and its evolutions are purely quadrupedal, and have no real way to carry two-handed items. At least Lycanroc's Midnight form doesn't have that issue, but last I've heard, it's on the lower end of the popularity scale.

 

[TumblrFamous]

This upcoming Pokemon game likely has no bearing on the base roster. Jigglypuff, Lucario, Mewtwo, and Greninja are in the same boats that they were in a few days ago.

I'm trying to warm myself up to these Kanto-reimagines, but it'll probably take some time. I'd rather see Gen 4 Remakes or a new generation before this. But here I am being Boo-Boo the Fool and expecting the Pokemon Company to not disappoint me.

As for KI content, I am of the opinion that there was too much, as most people have pointed out, we got an updated veteran, two newcomers, two new stages and assist trophies, Smash Run enemies, 5 items, etc. Don't get me wrong, it was easy for Sakurai to transfer those items over from KI:U, but seeing a series like DK get next to nothing is stinging.

I'm hopeful the only big change to the KI group is an updated Palutena. And with DKCTF plus the ballot likely showing how beloved characters like K. Rool and Dixie are, we get a lot of new DK content this next game.

And please enough with the Jungle levels for DK. They're getting stale. Give us one of those silhouette levels!

 

[Cosmic77]

Eevee's situation is a lot like what Lycanroc has to deal with. Eevee and its evolutions are purely quadrupedal, and have no real way to carry two-handed items. At least Lycanroc's Midnight form doesn't have that issue, but last I've heard, it's on the lower end of the popularity scale.

At least Lycanroc has geokinesis. There's not much else Eevee can do to carry items asides from picking them up in its mouth.

That being said, I still say that quad Pokemon aren't a problem for Sakurai. If he really wants to make a quad Pokemon playable, he'll do it, and I doubt something as insignificant as being unable to hold a two-handed item is gonna stop him from accomplishing his goal.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

At least Lycanroc has geokinesis. There's not much else Eevee can do to carry items asides from picking them up in its mouth.

That being said, I still say that quad Pokemon aren't a problem for Sakurai. If he really wants to make a quad Pokemon playable, he'll do it, and I doubt something as insignificant as being unable to hold a two-handed item is gonna stop him from accomplishing his goal.

My biggest problem with quad Pokemon getting attention is that one of the most frequent arguements against Mimikyu is that "I can't see how they would work as a fighter". It's like only humanoid Pokemon work, but if Sakurai wanted a quad Pokemon to work he can make it happen. Why not the same for Mimikyu :/

Also this isn't directed at you I don't know your stance on Mimikyu. People might not even be hypocrites like I pointed out, I just hate seeing Mimikyu won't work because body shape, but then Lycanroc will work if Sakurai wants him to. Sakurai can make anyone work lol.

 

[osby]

Just to have a different topic:
Who are your favourite veteran and newcomer for each game?

Mine:
64: Ness
Melee: Jigglypuff/Peach
Brawl:Zelda/Olimar
For:Zero Suit Samus/Wii Fit Trainer

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Actually if Eevee does get in?

A trailer with it and Mimikyu both being revealed has potential because it'd be a play on the new Let's Go! games.

And Sakurai does love to play around with things like that.

 

[Troykv]

If Sakurai thinks he's being biased towards modern Kirby content, then by all means, I want him to be even MORE biased.


Saying that Sakurai's bias is adding new content is a little too broad, especially if you're discussing Smash 4. Compare the treatment Donkey Kong got in Smash to KI. Both were in a fairly similar position back during the beginning of Smash 4's development. Both had made a recent comeback (DKCR 2010 and KI:U 2012), and the Smash fanbase vocalized wanting more content from both series. One series got milked, the other got curb stomped.

Now I can't get mad at Sakurai for not including a third DK newcomer in Smash 4, as Returns didn't really feature anyone aside from DK and Diddy (I guess Cranky would've worked, but I can see why Sakurai may have hesitated. Cranky probably needed a larger role like he had in TF). Regardless, Sakurai had plenty of material to work with to represent the DK series in other ways. The series only got a single new stage, no Assist Trophies, no items, a handful of trophies, and two remixes. Meanwhile, KI got two new stages, two Assist Trophies, about five or six items, an insane amount of trophies in the 3DS version, and four remixes.

Obviously Sakurai wants to add more content, but he doesn't always distribute the new content fairly. I know it's difficult to show blatant attention to every franchise, but the lack of love given to the iconic DK series after an incredible game like Returns is just abysmal. Seeing a niche series like KI get almost three times as much new content just adds insult to injury.

I can understand that is harder to work with the DK Stuff because their current developers are western, and KI:U was a game that Sakurai had a easier time translating to Smash because he was the Director of that project (and use of similar engine ended up making many of the content easy to import).. But damn, DK deserved at least a Assist Trophy (Rambi).

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Eevee's situation is a lot like what Lycanroc has to deal with. Eevee and its evolutions are purely quadrupedal, and have no real way to carry two-handed items. At least Lycanroc's Midnight form doesn't have that issue, but last I've heard, it's on the lower end of the popularity scale.

This is still inane. Eevee can just have it on its back, and it will make just as much sense as Pikachu bending over backwards to carry a crate. Sakurai would never reject an anatomically unique fighter over something like that, it's absurd.
Also since Eevee would definitely evolve, Espeon, Vaporeon, and maybe a few others have much easier methods, so even if it's so offensive, it would only be that way some of the time.

 

[Cosmic77]

My biggest problem with quad Pokemon getting attention is that one of the most frequent arguements against Mimikyu is that "I can't see how they would work as a fighter". It's like only humanoid Pokemon work, but if Sakurai wanted a quad Pokemon to work he can make it happen. Why not the same for Mimikyu :/

Also this isn't directed at you I don't know your stance on Mimikyu. People might not even be hypocrites like I pointed out, I just hate seeing Mimikyu won't work because body shape, but then Lycanroc will work if Sakurai wants him to. Sakurai can make anyone work lol.

I don't want Mimikyu nearly as much as Lycanroc, but I'm not seeing a problem with how it could play in Smash. It can still move around on its own and grab things with its ghost hand thingy, so I think Sakurai could easily work something out.

Actually if Eevee does get in?

A trailer with it and Mimikyu both being revealed has potential because it'd be a play on the new Let's Go! games.

And Sakurai does love to play around with things like that.

I could see that, but only if Sakurai was coincidentally already working on Mimikyu when he decided to add Eevee. I doubt he'd be thinking that far ahead when he was finalizing the roster.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Eevee's situation is a lot like what Lycanroc has to deal with. Eevee and its evolutions are purely quadrupedal, and have no real way to carry two-handed items. At least Lycanroc's Midnight form doesn't have that issue, but last I've heard, it's on the lower end of the popularity scale.

Using my idea of Eevee using it's Z-Power to summon it's big bros (Eevee Thread, where this kinda talk should be happening) Eevee could summon Sylveon to use it's flesh bows to carry heavy things.