Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[CrusherMania1592]

Maybe they should focus on a Gen 8 game that has heavily relies on Get 2 and 5 Pokemon? More of them to hit the spotlights

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Main story, it functionally was if I'm to be honest, especially if we're talking about the Pokémon options. The only time you were allowed to get non-Gen 1 Pokemon was once you beat the league, beforehand there were no new Pokémon in the main game and if you wanted any other Pokémon you were out of luck.
-Evolution? Nope, they block it.
-Pre-evolutions? No, you can't breed.
-Transferring? Unless you traded it to a completed FRLG cartridge that wasn't an option.

And so on and so forth. FRLG are counterexamples to what your point is since they're loyal to the originals to a fault, and if these new games are like FRLG, then the dissenters would be right in that case since it would be 'original 151 or bust' until you've completed the game like they've been worried about.

Ahhhh. I see what you mean now.

Yeah, I just meant that it wasn't just "let's keep the games mostly the same" and all. It did have some actual story differences, but it was small. Not unlike HG/SS or OR/AS. Anyway, I think remaking 'em more like the DS and 3DS games make more sense. Change it up a little, make it the new canon, give more options. At least we finally got another playable character with FRLG. However, I could see it being an all new story too if the rumor is true. Pikachu is Red/Ash's Pokemon, but Eevee is Blue/Gary's signature Pokemon as well. That would be a perfect way to reinvent the story. You could also add the options of using Green(now called Leaf) and Yellow(from the Manga) if possible. This gives you the main protagonists and their proper counterparts(Red to Yellow and Blue to Green) as options. Maybe make Pikachu edition solely Red/Yellow and Eevee edition Blue/Green? I dunno. There's just a lot of potential.

 

[Pazzo.]

Snake was cut because he was asked in on a favor.

Sometimes favors last one game.

The likely cuts are the clones. 3rd party may be likely for cuts but we'd need Smash 5 and 6's roster to make any sort of consistent guess. Brawl -> 4 isn't enough.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

My boy Roy BETTER not get cut again

Or the world is gonna burn

 

[Tree Gelbman]

The clones last game were Lucina, an extremely popular character in her home franchise.

Dr. Mario, a character from a franchise and spin-off that Nintendo used as recently as 2015. Just 3 years ago.

And Dark Pit, who is really the only divisive character from a series with an uncertain future.

Dark Pit is the only one I'm worried about and even as someone who liked Kid Icarus Uprising. Oh well. No big loss.

 

[Deleted member]

The clones last game were Lucina, an extremely popular character in her home franchise.

Dr. Mario, a character from a franchise and spin-off that Nintendo used as recently as 2015. Just 3 years ago.

And Dark Pit, who is really the only divisive character from a series with an uncertain future.

Dark Pit is the only one I'm worried about and even as someone who liked Kid Icarus Uprising. Oh well. No big loss.

I doubt Dark Pit is getting cut.
My reasoning is that Kid Icarus is still popular and doing well, especially with hype building up and Kid Icarus Uprising. I think Sakurai really likes Kid Icarus, how he represented them a lot in Smash 4. I think Dark Pit will most likely stay.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Kid Icarus does not need 3 characters. Not yet. Palutena and Pit were enough.

Just focus your attention on making Palutena actually fun to play.

 

[Pazzo.]

Dark Pit is likely so low in priority though.

I'd say Lucas may actually be low priority too, as much as it pains me.

 

[SlickWylde]

Ganondorf isn't exactly the best example either, since the same time he got a different body frame (more stout than beefy), a lot of his moves changed accordingly to fit the body type.
As well as the fact that Ganondorf is a very special case in that even while near completely cloned, he had a entirely different style to his moves despite sharing most animations. Focusing on raw power as opposed to quick, explosive hits.
Being a clone when he first entered Smash and being adjusted later to fit with his new design is also something important to note. He wouldn't have been a semi-clone in Brawl with the TP design if it weren't for his inclusion in Melee with a design closer to Falcon's build.

In comparison, just by not being a hunched over hulking brute by default, most of DK's attacks would have to be replaced.
And that's not getting into the main appeal to the overall concept of Funky as a playable fighter; the surfboard.

The surfboard alone is enough to give Funky his own identity as something other than a DK clone.

Okay, you disagree with me, therefore you must be wrong. Let's just leave it at that (Obviously kidding)

I don't really have a horse in this race, I just wouldn't be surprised if it ended up happening. And I bet Sakurai could make it work. But I understand your points about design, and don't totally disagree!

 

[CroonerMike]

Kid Icarus does not need 3 characters. Not yet. Palutena and Pit were enough.

Just focus your attention on making Palutena actually fun to play.

Just like smash doesn't need as many third parties as we have...but here we are.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Kid Icarus does not need 3 characters. Not yet. Palutena and Pit were enough.

Just focus your attention on making Palutena actually fun to play.

I'd love Medusa. >.>

I think the issue is more not the amount of characters, but how Dark Pit lacks a coherent moveset to separate him enough from Pit to have people bother thinking up new strategies. Lucina's difference in design isn't great, but there's a bit more thought put into how to play them differently overall. Dark Pit and Pit are practically impossible to create separate strategies for. Change it up a little, and that issue is resolved. Could be a few stat differences(though it makes sense why they're not), some weapons, perhaps Gliding(that'd be a great gimmick for Dark Pit!), or whatever. I don't think he's necessarily getting cut, but I fear he won't get some changes to keep him interesting. I mean, I'd take as much as Toon Link even(who arguably is the clone in Smash 4 changed the least from his counterpart).

 

[Deleted member]

Kid Icarus does not need 3 characters. Not yet. Palutena and Pit were enough.

Just focus your attention on making Palutena actually fun to play.

I think it is okay for Kid Icarus to have three characters.
The amount of characters should not be based off popularity. Pokemon, Legend of Zelda are more popular than FE and yet FE has more representatives than they do. I think Kid Icarus having three is fine, it is not going to harm anything or ruin any balance.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Fire Emblem, Zelda, and Pokemon have been franchises for years.

Kid Icarus kind of wasn't a franchise to even consider until Sakurai did Uprising and right now? We don't even know if it has a future outside of Sakurai deciding to do another once he's done with Smash Switch.

That's the only reason I say it doesn't need more than Palutena and Pit.

I think Uprising had a very vibrant cast of characters though that all have Smash potential for the future.

 

[Roberk]

Just want to make something clear: character slots on the CSS are not equivalent to overrepresentation in Smash. Characters aren't everything, a lot of dev time also goes into items, assist trophies, stages, and other miscellaneous stuff like trophies, etc. While most put a lot of focus on the playable characters, it doesn't necessarily mean that a franchise is being slighted if they don't seem to have "enough" slots or if a franchise is being overrepresented because they take up "too many" slots.

KI has 3 characters, yes, but it's been stated many times: Dark Pit is a glorified alternate costume. Barely any development goes into him compared to unique characters. To better justify his spot make significant changes to the properties of his moves with as little development as possible. If all they do is shift a few numbers and put a little effort into balancing him to be an alternate playstyle to Pit, then the dev time put into him would still be acceptable while making him a bit more enjoyable. While Lucina's execution can be considered unfavorable by some, she takes absolutely minimal dev time while providing an alternate playstyle to Marth's defined moveset. Dark Pit should be more like Lucina, minimal work but can still be justified gameplay wise.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Arguing the likelihood of cuts again? Provide your factual evidence for why a character is actually likely to be cut, then. Sakurai hates cutting any character, and there's no distinguishing factor making anyone more likely than another. Everyone has positives and negatives. Someone is bound to be cut, but none of ya have a real legitimate reason for the cut beyond personal bias.

 

[Yooran]

I'm not expecting much, but I'd love to see a lot, here's praying for the return of Wolf and Snake

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Just want to make something clear: character slots on the CSS are not equivalent to overrepresentation in Smash. Characters aren't everything, a lot of dev time also goes into items, assist trophies, stages, and other miscellaneous stuff like trophies, etc. While most put a lot of focus on the playable characters, it doesn't necessarily mean that a franchise is being slighted if they don't seem to have "enough" slots or if a franchise is being overrepresented because they take up "too many" slots.

KI has 3 characters, yes, but it's been stated many times: Dark Pit is a glorified alternate costume. Barely any development goes into him compared to unique characters. To better justify his spot make significant changes to the properties of his moves with as little development as possible. If all they do is shift a few numbers and put a little effort into balancing him to be an alternate playstyle to Pit, then the dev time put into him would still be acceptable while making him a bit more enjoyable. While Lucina's execution can be considered unfavorable by some, she takes absolutely minimal dev time while providing an alternate playstyle to Marth's defined moveset. Dark Pit should be more like Lucina, minimal work but can still be justified gameplay wise.

Indeed. Of course, Sakurai has noted why he doesn't add characters for the reason of "overrepresentation" before. What is notable, that said, is that slots didn't mean anything anyway. Zelda/Sheik are 1 slot, but are treated as two separate characters. Smash 4 is the first time since Smash 64 to have every slot be equal to a single playable character.

People need to look less at slots and how Sakurai feels about the series as well as various other factors. It's like Pokemon Gen V, except it's not completely black and white.

 

[Roberk]

Arguing the likelihood of cuts again? Provide your factual evidence for why a character is actually likely to be cut, then. Sakurai hates cutting any character, and there's no distinguishing factor making anyone more likely than another. Everyone has positives and negatives. Someone is bound to be cut, but none of ya have a real legitimate reason for the cut beyond personal bias.

Not wanting cuts to slight characters, but I'm open to them if it allows new stuff to come in. While this is a bit of personal bias, I'd argue that new Smash games should try to use more new games and characters to appeal to new audiences. Unfortunately, development resources aren't infinite, so that's why I'm conflicted on keeping everything and getting more stuff.

 

[Pazzo.]

Hey, I'll take 3 versions of Dark Pit and 4 versions of Smash Tour if Little Mac can get some recovery power.

I'm only half joking.

 

[MysticKnives]

I am up for another go at Kanto if:

It's a sequel.
The region changes somewhat but remains familiar in areas.
Backstory to whereabouts to the old style gym leaders, Oak, Blue, E4, Bill, etc.
We have access to Johto and it has changes due to time as well.

I am a Johto man myself but nobody can deny the pull Gen 1 has. It's THE generation of Pokemon: at its hypest, at its peak. It would be a no-brainer to set the theme around Kanto on their first big title on home consoles.

This I'd love. Especially since Blue is my favorite Pokemon character in the games, and it's great that when you like at the games as a whole, he's gone through some development as a character as he has gotten older and matured as a person. You start to see it in his quotes when you meet him at Cinnabar Island once he's finally a Gym Leader (still a little bitter over his L to Red), then in Gen 5, his quotes have him genuinely acknowledge your strength when you beat him, and in Gen 7, he's a completely chill dude. Definitely would love to see Blue in a large capacity again.

With that said, give me Kabutops for this Smash then. I think Kabutops would epic in Smash.

 

[osby]

Is there anyone who initially disliked a character but know loves them?

 

[Radical Bones]

I wonder if there'll be any Pokemon Go representation in the new game, even as a stage.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Is there anyone who initially disliked a character but know loves them?

Wii Fit Trainer. When I first heard of her, I thought it was a bad joke. I saw it then changed my mind almost immediately. Especially after I saw how fun the roster was.

 

[MysticKnives]

Can't say I do as I dislike very few characters of something in general. I'm indifferent to a fair amount though. Like I was indifferent towards Corrin, Marth, ZSS, Jigglypuff, Falco, Dedede, and Bayonetta but when I played them, I became fans of them, especially Jigglypuff, Marth, and ZSS.

 

[N3ON]

Arguing the likelihood of cuts again? Provide your factual evidence for why a character is actually likely to be cut, then. Sakurai hates cutting any character, and there's no distinguishing factor making anyone more likely than another. Everyone has positives and negatives. Someone is bound to be cut, but none of ya have a real legitimate reason for the cut beyond personal bias.

What? That's a very faulty premise. There are dozens of potential candidates that have positive and negative points in their favour, that doesn't mean they lack distinguishing factors that make some likelier than others. Not all factors are equal. And it works the same way for cuts. Some reasons why a character might not return, such as them being low priority in the past, carry more weight than other factors, such as, for example, being a less popular character. Just because the circumstances may be unfortunate doesn't mean there isn't a logical and historical, albeit loose, hierarchy in terms of cuts.

And of course some have legitimate reasons for being cut. Maybe they ran out of development time. Someone has to be prioritized last. Maybe licensing didn't pan out. Third party litigation is no doubt complicated. Don't dismiss peoples' reasoning to bias, that's reductionist. In the past I've argued why my favourite character could be cut (Cloud - though I doubt it) while defending the security of one of my least favourites (WFT). People can be objective.

 

[Zinith]

Is there anyone who initially disliked a character but know loves them?

Little Mac. At first I was on the "Oh, you ain't no air fighter Little Mac" mocking runs, but now I feel bad for him and his mains...

 

[KingBroly]

I can't see how you make Eevee a playable character, tbh. Even if you brought transformations back

 

[viewtifulduck82]

I wish people would stop assuming that Dark pit is going to come back the same. If he comes back he's getting luigi-fied. Same as literally every other clone to ever return.

Anyone that played uprising or understands how that game works should be excited. There are sooooo many things they can do with the source material and weapons from the game. Dark pit doesn't even use his weapons from the game in smash. (yes there's more than just the staff )

In spite of him getting changed up, he's still extremely likely to return seeing as his model is a slight change from pit's, and a lot of animations can be reused. I think he's one of the most safe choices in the roster outside of the OG 12

 

[Bowserlick]

Eevee could play like a permanent Shulk.

Your playstyle (delivering damage, taking damage, evasion) could result in three separate enhanced clones (Flareon, Vapereon, Jolteon) that you evolve into per stock.

 

[NintenRob]

I'd be ok with Kanto on one condition.


Johto is the post game. It makes too much sense.

Sequel story would be ideal too. But Johto should be there.

 

[Darkraid]

I'd be ok with Kanto on one condition.


Johto is the post game. It makes too much sense.

Sequel story would be ideal too. But Johto should be there.

I think DLC expansion is on their minds.

Sun and Moon was such a great step in the right direction and really changed up the series, please for the love of god don't bring us back to Kanto game freak

Ugh Sun & Moon is my least fav main pokemon games ever. The Z-Moves, trials and UBs really sucked for me. The only thing great was the Pokeride.

 

[MrRoidley]

Is there anyone who initially disliked a character but know loves them?

Pac-Man and Ryu I think. Wasn't too keen with them getting in Smash initially but they proved to be really fun characters

 

[PSIGuy]

Does anyone else think the whole "clones don't take effort" thing is a double-edged sword when using it to say they should be in? Sure, they didn't take much time... but they also don't really change anything meaningfully. They're lazy additions. You can take them or leave them but you can't say leaving them is the wrong choice.

To reimagine a restaurant analogy that Sakurai himself has used to defend clones, it's like having a masterfully made 5 course meal. Each course is made well and presented well, forming a cohesive memorable meal. And at the end of the meal, they bring you some slightly burnt souffle and tell you it's free, it didn't take much time to make, compliments of the chef, it's yours. Well thanks, but after the expertly made food this kind of looks terrible. Talk about leaving a bad taste in your mouth.

Sakurai doesn't believe that weak elements in a product drag down the whole product (see his comments on FE Fates) but it's valid to think that a poor addition can remove more than it adds. It's not the only way to think or the *right* way to think, but it's valid.

 

[BlondeLombax]

Only four more weeks, y'all guys!

Hooray, we're exactly one non-leap-year February from E3!

I'm gonna say it right now. If what Emily says is true--that most people would be happy with the roster--then my most wanted character wouldn't be there because his reveal would have Sakurai's head on a spike the next day...

Out of curiosity, which character are you talking about, exactly? If you're worried about backlash, try finding the "Unpopular Opinions" thread and post them there instead, it's against the rules to bash on that thread.

On another note, to everybody expressing concern with leaks, just remember that it's May, of course the dam is going to burst with tons of "insider info." Just ignore it, it's most likely a bunch of peck necks trying to get a rise out of the fans for their own twisted entertainment.

 

[Zinith]

Out of curiosity, which character are you talking about, exactly? If you're worried about backlash, try finding the "Unpopular Opinions" thread and post them there instead, it's against the rules to bash on that thread.

It's Boshi, and oh don't worry, I have been on that thread and made my thoughts QUITE clear on a number of topics (60% of them Yoshi related)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Please do not double post. Edit your messages instead.

 

[osby]

Does anyone else think the whole "clones don't take effort" thing is a double-edged sword when using it to say they should be in? Sure, they didn't take much time... but they also don't really change anything meaningfully. They're lazy additions. You can take them or leave them but you can't say leaving them is the wrong choice.

To reimagine a restaurant analogy that Sakurai himself has used to defend clones, it's like having a masterfully made 5 course meal. Each course is made well and presented well, forming a cohesive memorable meal. And at the end of the meal, they bring you some slightly burnt souffle and tell you it's free, it didn't take much time to make, compliments of the chef, it's yours. Well thanks, but after the expertly made food this kind of looks terrible. Talk about leaving a bad taste in your mouth.

Sakurai doesn't believe that weak elements in a product drag down the whole product (see his comments on FE Fates) but it's valid to think that a poor addition can remove more than it adds. It's not the only way to think or the *right* way to think, but it's valid.

The thing is, clones are modelled after perfectly playable and fun characters. If you like playing as Pit, you'll probably have fun as Dark Pit too. There are a lot of people who prefers playing as him, Lucina and Dr. Mario rather than their counterparts. They aren't badly designed characters.

Weak elements can bring them a game down but a few characters in a 50+ roster shouldn't be a problem, since they have no negative impact on the game balance. Restaurant analogy: If you don't like dessert, leave it on your plate and move on. Other customers might enjoy it.

 

[Radical Bones]

Is there anyone who initially disliked a character but know loves them?

Cloud for me. I didn't hate him or anything, just didn't really care for him and not into FF all that much. He is so satisfying to play as though. I've always loved Ike for his big old sword but he's just a touch too slow. Cloud fixed that.

Corrin is the character to me whose reveal was disappoint and followed up to be disappointing to play as.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Just want to make something clear: character slots on the CSS are not equivalent to overrepresentation in Smash. Characters aren't everything, a lot of dev time also goes into items, assist trophies, stages, and other miscellaneous stuff like trophies, etc. While most put a lot of focus on the playable characters, it doesn't necessarily mean that a franchise is being slighted if they don't seem to have "enough" slots or if a franchise is being overrepresented because they take up "too many" slots.

So...Dark Pit's inclusion aside, by this argument...Kid Icarus is still overrepresented considering it has
5 items,
2 assist trophies(which isn't excessive but bigger series like Donkey Kong don't even have a single one),
The sheer amount of effort put into Palutena's Guidance
A frankly ridiculous 17 Smash Run enemies,
2 brand new stages,
1 returning stage,
11 trophies
1 Mii outfit
And the only character outside the Miis to get completly different custom moves?

All this for a three game series if we're generous and not pointing out literally everything included is representing Uprising primarily.

 

[osby]

So...Dark Pit's inclusion aside, by this argument...Kid Icarus is still overrepresented considering it has
5 items,
2 assist trophies(which isn't excessive but bigger series like Donkey Kong don't even have a single one),
The sheer amount of effort put into Palutena's Guidance
A frankly ridiculous 17 Smash Run enemies,
2 brand new stages,
1 returning stage,
11 trophies
1 Mii outfit
And the only character outside the Miis to get completly different custom moves?

All this for a three game series if we're generous and not pointing out literally everything included is representing Uprising primarily.

They were done by the same team and they had a lot of the models already in hand so it's not really suprise or a big effort that it got items, assists, enemies, trophies or a Smash Taunt.

Also, why are we arguing Palutena's customs were special treatment? Samus was the only character with two Final Smashes in Brawl and Zelda was the only transforming character in Melee. There is always a character who "shows off" a mechanic of the game and Palutena was simply ore suited to it than the other newcomers.