Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[T-Donor66]

Again. It wasn't the point or reason for Cloud's inclusion.
Cloud was added as a FINAL FANTASY characters. Not as FINAL FANTASY VII characters. Why do you think his logo is FF instead of the Meteor?
And yeah, look, Nintendo hate Square Enix so much that they're willing to let them publish Tons of Final Fantasy games after this "Betrayal" if you knew your History, you would know that Square went to Sony because the N64 cartridge couldn't launch the FMV video-
And you would also know that FFVII was also on PC at the same time-
It wasn't a "betrayal" it was just technical issues. There wasn't any beef between Square and Nintendo ever.

Lol you act as if they went back to completely supporting Nintendo after the “technical issues” with Final Fantasy 7. Please, go ahead and look at what mainline FF games Nintendo got after FF7. Not a single one. Just a bunch of cheap spinoff titles.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

http://boards.4chan.org/vp/thread/35546212#p35546310

Just for reference of what I'm talking about.

If this is true? Eevee is advanced enough of a character for Sakurai to consider. It's also a very popular Pokemon with many evolutions. All Sakurai would have to hear is ''We're focusing on Eevee this time." from Gamefreak and he'd most likely know what to do just from prior knowledge of the other games it's appeared in.

If right, then I'm gonna feel reeeeeeaaaal smug about setting up the Eevee support thread.

 

[Nekoo]

Does it mean half of the Roster will be FE characters to please everyone?
Or that all of the Pokédex will be added?
All of Kirby Friends?
DK crew?
Call of duty dude is finally in?
Finally the ultimate Smash bros roster-

Lol you act as if they went back to completely supporting Nintendo after the “technical issues” with Final Fantasy 7. Please, go ahead and look at what mainline FF games Nintendo got after FF7. Not a single one. Just a bunch of cheap spinoff titles.

Try to launch FFVIII, IX, X, XI, XII, XIII, XIV, XV on a N64/Gamecube/WII and then call me back.
A game shouldn't be held back by it's sytem.
Nintendo also got the Final Fantasy Tactics Sequel AND EVEN A FFXII GAMES LOOK THE BIG BETRAYAL TO SONY! TACTICS WAS JUST A PS1 TITLESSS!!!111!!!
Kingdom Heart got some of the most important Games story-wise on Nintendo Systems, they're ain't spin-off: Chain of memories, Re-codec, Dream Drop Distance.
Nintendo got the Bravely Default Series too and Octopath Traveler, Bravely Default being a spiritual FF.
And the "cheap spinoff titles" all sold pretty good and got multiple sequel like Theathrym and the Cristal Chronicles.
So please, don't talk without knowing what you're talking about.

I'll close the discussion now because honestly, it's not worth it to see someone make gaming revisionism.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Cloud was absolutely meant to represent FFVII first and foremost.

He wasn't simply chosen cause "lol we need a FF character". He's the biggest character and most recognizable. Nobody came close. He's still designed to be directly based upon his own game and at best a couple of spin-offs with slightly noting the Dissidia games. Heck, his costumes reference his movie.

Even if FF didn't start on Nintendo? He'd still have gotten in any way as long as he was a severe juggernaut like he is now. FF starting on Nintendo was beyond irrelevant to his reasoning. It's being a huge and popular franchise is what mattered, and shaping gaming as a whole.

Sakurai also, notably, made it clear he doesn't care about console wars. He chose Cloud knowing he isn't relevant to Nintendo itself. He didn't want anyone else because they weren't as big. About the closest thing he said related to Nintendo was that he might have not chosen him if he had no Nintendo appearances. In other words, a maybe. That already tells you he wasn't interested in these pointless console wars alone. Besides him outright stating it as well.

His goal is to make it the "best character game in the world". He has no time for petty stuff like being "relevant to Nintendo". That only outright makes it significantly harder to add fun characters and gather more players. The rest of Smash can represent Nintendo without 3rd party being important to Nintendo specifically.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

http://boards.4chan.org/vp/thread/35546212#p35546310

Just for reference of what I'm talking about.

If this is true? Eevee is advanced enough of a character for Sakurai to consider. It's also a very popular Pokemon with many evolutions. All Sakurai would have to hear is ''We're focusing on Eevee this time." from Gamefreak and he'd most likely know what to do just from prior knowledge of the other games it's appeared in.

It fits nicely with all of the Kanto 2.0 rumors we've heard. Not quite sure what to make of it in regards to Smash, it'd be a new situation having a pre-existing Pokémon made into a mascot for a new generation, and it'd obviously help Eevee tremendously, but it's still hard to say anything for certain. Whether it'd make the base roster or appear as DLC would depend a lot on whether Game Freak are making any sweeping changes I feel, there have been suggestions from leakers (credible or not) that Gen 8 could be a reboot, and so we don't know if the Pokémon we all know will be changed significantly, Eevee included of course.

 

[T-Donor66]

Does it mean half of the Roster will be FE characters to please everyone?
Try to launch FFVIII, IX, X, XI, XII, XIII, XIV, XV on a N64/Gamecube/WII and then call me back.
A game shouldn't be held back by it's sytem.
Nintendo also got the Final Fantasy Tactics Sequel AND EVEN A FFXII GAMES LOOK THE BIG BETRAYAL TO SONY! TACTICS WAS JUST A PS1 TITLESSS!!!111!!!
Kingdom Heart got some of the most important Games story-wise on Nintendo Systems, they're ain't spin-off: Chain of memories, Re-codec, Dream Drop Distance.
Nintendo got the Bravely Default Series too and Octopath Traveler, Bravely Default being a spiritual FF.
And the "cheap spinoff titles" all sold pretty good and got multiple sequel like Theathrym and the Cristal Chronicles.
So please, don't talk without knowing what you're talking about.

I'll close the discussion now because honestly, it's not worth it to see someone make gaming revisionism.

Man, stop acting like your take on the situation is more valid than mine. It’s really not. Only Sakurai 100% knows his intentions so let’s stop pretending we know why.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

On this SE talk

Nintendo and Square never had a full falling out. Their business priorities clashed as Nintendo shied away from the Graphics race and Square's flagship FF games were sold on how beautiful they looked (yes, FF7 looked gorgeous back in it's day.) and how large they were (Nintendo didn't use full size disks until the Wii) so it didn't make sense to develop them for Nintendo consoles.

What made less sense was the push for XBox in the FF13 era but that's another tale.

On this Emily "leak" all we can glean from it is the implication that it's not just gonna be Inlkings and that's it. It's the corporations that are meant to tease, not the insiders.

 

[YoshiandToad]

To be fair at least Eevee is a heavily marketed Pokémon with a strong fanbase that is always at least a little relevant.

As much as I'm iffy about the evolution gimmick(since Eevee is more like a Digimon in the proposed movesets I see evolving and devolving into various forms) I can't argue Eevee's popularity and longevity is legit opposed to say Sceptile/Zoroark/Genesect's fleeting popularity during Sm4sh.

And for all his comments about making characters feel like they do in the game, Sakurai is fine bending rules and personalities to suit a move set so de-evolution not being a proper Pokémon game mechanic probably won't be an issue?

 

[T-Donor66]

Anyways, that Emily Rogers leak really makes me wonder. She must have a pretty crazy high level contact if she is able to find out the ENTIRE roster for the new game, which is usually extremely confidential information. That’s pretty insane if it’s true.

 

[Chandeelure]

Anyways, that Emily Rogers leak really makes me wonder. She must have a pretty crazy high level contact if she is able to find out the ENTIRE roster for the new game, which is usually extremely confidential information. That’s pretty insane if it’s true.

Or maybe she just knows about, I don't know, Ridley and Crash, and that's enough for her to say the roster is hype.

 

[Nekoo]

Man, you are so knowledgeable and smart! Your point of view is way better than mine! Again, Cloud represents Final Fantasy 7. Please don’t talk without knowing what you’re talking about.

I'll just leave this for you. Because really now? Being that condescending?
He talk about how FF is a famous worldwide and wanted to represent it, without caring if it was a Nintendo exclusive character or not. He just took the most iconics and famous one WITHING THAT SERIES.
Yes, he represent FFVII.
But he also represent FF as a whole, as a gift for all of it's fan, and also note how there not a lot of third Party franchise left that are as big now. And that he doesn't give a crap about console wars...

Final Fantasy VII (FFVII below) has never been released on a Nintendo console, so how did Cloud end up appearing in Smash?

Sakurai: Final Fantasy (FF below) is one of the few uniquely Japanese game series revered by players around the world. I think fans across the globe have hoped a character from one of those series would appear in Smash, so it was only a matter of time. At the same time, there are only so many big-name titles we can work with at this point—mainly because we’ve covered most of those bases. Aside from the major globally-recognized franchises already featured in Smash, there really aren’t that many left.

—That’s true. No other franchises come to mind.

Sakurai: Exactly. And within the FFfranchise, Cloud is without question the most popular choice. A number of people fixate on the fact his original game was never released on a Nintendo console, but if we were to limit our choices to characters who appeared on a Nintendo console, we’d end up with Bartz from FFV or the Onion Knight from FFIII—how would that work? Maybe they could change jobs or something… Actually, that would be kind of interesting (laughs).

(Everyone laughs)

Sakurai: At the same time, I think it’s only natural to prioritize the character who enjoys worldwide popularity. I might have had misgivings if Cloud had never appeared on a Nintendo console in any form, though.

—Recently, he’s shown up in theTheatrhythm and Kingdom Hearts series. He’s even branching out to the PS4 now with the FFVII remake.

Sakurai: Which is why I think we should forget about console wars and focus on what’s really important: enjoying the games themselves.
Source: https://sourcegaming.info/2016/02/23/nintendo-dream-interview-with-sakurai-part-2/

Anyway, about that Emily Rogers Leak? Well, my problem with her is that she have as much right as wrong in general. And just saying that the Roster is hype is way too safe in my opinion ot really give attention to it.

What's interesting however is that she says that the Next Pokémon game will be revealed before the end of this month? Or "very soon"?

 

[T-Donor66]

Man, stop acting like your opinion is more valid than mine. It’s really not. Only Sakurai 100% knows his intentions so let’s stop pretending we know exactly why.

I'll just leave this for you. Because really now? Being that condescending?
He talk about how FF is a famous worldwide and wanted to represent it, without caring if it was a Nintendo exclusive character or not. He just took the most iconics and famous one.
Yes, he represent FFVII.
But he also represent FF as a whole, as a gift for all of it's fan, and also note how there not a lot of third Party franchise left that are as big now

Yeah, I edited it to make it less condescending. Haven’t had my cup of coffee yet lol. My opinion still stands though.

 

[Nekoo]

Yeah, I edited it to make it less condescending. Haven’t had my cup of coffee yet lol. My opinion still stands though.

True, no big deal-
My point was how you talked that Square Betrayed Nintendo or hated it whatsoever which is something I don't believe- but as for why Cloud is here, i'm willing to agree- What's the problem when we talk about roster or "why this character is here" in general. We can only guess what's inside Sakurai's head until he himself give us an answer.

 

[Cosmic77]

Or maybe she just knows about, I don't know, Ridley and Crash, and that's enough for her to say the roster is hype.

Forget Crash! Just give me Ridley and I'll be happy, Sakurai!

I don't know, it's just hard to take vague "leaks" like this very seriously. Assuming Emily actually knows a majority of the newcomers and she's right about them being "hype", I still don't know if the characters would be something that I'd personally want to get in Smash. Third-parties would be a huge deal to most people, but I honestly could care less.

Either way, grain of salt. Not holding my breath for this being a Ridley or K. Rool hint.

 

[Nekoo]

For all we know- It could be Ridley, like it could be Mickey or Goku-
That's way too easy to make a leak and say "It's hype"

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

...Cloud doesn't have anything to represent FF as a whole anyway. All of what he does is pure FFVII entirely. He's just the most popular character in the franchise, which is about as close to "repping FF as a whole" as you can get.

You'd have a better argument with the Chocobo Costume, though that also is not even from a proper FF game, but the same-named series spin-off(about a Chocobo no less). There was no intention whatsoever to really represent the FF series in general so much as a specific game(and its movie, of course). I'd have loved more content to show off the series, but they stuck to one game. Likely due to both budget and time constraints.

As for the Emily leak, might be real? The Pokemon rumor is looking more and more real.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

If Eevee gets in because of this. I'll be hype.

I actually have wanted Eevee for a really long time and thought it'd make such a cool Pokemon rep. It and Meowth or what I wanted to unlock in the original Smash instead of Jigglypuff. Lol.

 

[T-Donor66]

...Cloud doesn't have anything to represent FF as a whole anyway. All of what he does is pure FFVII entirely. He's just the most popular character in the franchise, which is about as close to "repping FF as a whole" as you can get.

You'd have a better argument with the Chocobo Costume, though that also is not even from a proper FF game, but the same-named series spin-off(about a Chocobo no less). There was no intention whatsoever to really represent the FF series in general so much as a specific game(and its movie, of course). I'd have loved more content to show off the series, but they stuck to one game. Likely due to both budget and time constraints.

As for the Emily leak, might be real? The Pokemon rumor is looking more and more real.

Why is the Pokémon leak looking more and more real? Just curious, since I’m really looking forward to the reveal.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

If Eevee gets in because of this. I'll be hype.

I actually have wanted Eevee for a really long time and thought it'd make such a cool Pokemon rep. It and Meowth or what I wanted to unlock in the original Smash instead of Jigglypuff. Lol.

Eevee never interested me as playable, at least compared to Meowth.

Either way, my worry is there's not much of a fun way to put Eevee in while making the Eeveelutions relevant as well. However, I could see them being used as variant costumes not unlike the Koopalings. That'd be fun. A really fun moveset isn't as much a hard part as trying to incorporate the Eeveelutions, since Pokemon aren't like Digimon. They can't evolve and de-evolve, or slide evolve, at will. That's a key factor that really separates the franchises.

Why is the Pokémon leak looking more and more real? Just curious, since I’m really looking forward to the reveal.

https://twitter.com/Junichi_Masuda/status/994760320101957632/photo/1 Because of this. Also because it matches up with the other Pokemon leak about the "Pikachu and Eevee additions" thing.

 

[Cosmic77]

If Eevee gets in because of this. I'll be hype.

I actually have wanted Eevee for a really long time and thought it'd make such a cool Pokemon rep. It and Meowth or what I wanted to unlock in the original Smash instead of Jigglypuff. Lol.

Eevee is one of the most iconic Pokemon in existence.
Eevee is extremely popular.
Eevee is almost always being pushed by Game Freak and TPCI.
Eevee will have a high amount of relevancy if these leaks are true.

That being said, if Eevee was the next Pokemon rep, I'd be incredibly and undeniably disappointed. Aside from me thinking Eevee would be less exciting than other popular contenders, we had such a good thing going with Lucario and Greninja. I REALLY don't want to see a fifth (technically seventh) Gen I Pokemon added to the roster.

 

[monadoboy]

Emily also said this:View attachment 144384

This might be the hypest thing that could happen, but it's soooo easy to be disappointed by believing this. I wouldn't even consider it, just in case. I'm ready for the Lucina cut and bringing any hopes up then dashing them might kill the game for me.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Eevee is one of the most iconic Pokemon in existence.
Eevee is extremely popular.
Eevee is almost always being pushed by Game Freak and TPCI.
Eevee will have a high amount of relevancy if these leaks are true.

That being said, if Eevee was the next Pokemon rep, I'd be incredibly and undeniably disappointed. Aside from me thinking Eevee would be less exciting than other popular contenders, we had such a good thing going with Lucario and Greninja. I REALLY don't want to see a fifth (technically seventh) Gen I Pokemon added to the roster.

It doesn't mean Eevee would be the ONLY Pokemon rep though? We could easily get Eevee and Decidueye, Eevee/Mimikyu, etc.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It doesn't mean Eevee would be the ONLY Pokemon rep though? We could easily get Eevee and Decidueye, Eevee/Mimikyu, etc.

I think it's more some just want to not continue to have the Gen 1 size grow even more.

I can understand that. Though I do find it funny that most of the cuts are Gen 1 as well. Anyway, it being the most iconic Gen is always going to play a role.

Also, it depends if we're talking 2 on the base roster or not. If 2, with Eevee and a Gen 7, that gives a Gen 8 Pokemon for DLC as an option. That'd be interesting, but once we saw that 4 got only one newcomer for Pokemon, it makes one wonder if the Pokemon series is getting fairly big and Sakurai doesn't want it to grow too big on the roster or something. We definitely knows he cares about not overrepping a series. I don't think this'll be an issue necessarily, but it'd something to keep in mind.

 

[Roberk]

While Eevee would be cool, I'd be a bit dissapointed if we got another gen 1 rep. Gen 1 and Eevee are iconic and cool and all but Gen 1 is already so prevalent in Smash it is. If Eevee is put in to go along with the rumored Gen 1 remake then I guess it's ok within the context of Smash, but I kind of wanted something new from Pokémon anyway. It could be a Kanto sequel and be completely different, that would be neat.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Eh. If anyone complains about Pokemon or Mario getting more reps than other franchises and complains at Sakurai for it. He has a right to start a grease fire in their house.

They are the two biggest Nintendo franchises that everyone knows worldwide. If he wanted to have 12 Pokemon and 12 Mario. Let him.

That's just how I feel on the matter though. It just feels like and I've used this analogy before walking into a Disney theme park and complaining that Mickey Mouse and Disney Princesses are everywhere.

 

[T-Donor66]

Um, ew. So I just researched the Pokémon Switch leak and it looks horrifyingly accurate to what Emily Rogers is saying about the “head scratching branding” of the new game. “Pokémon let’s go Pikachu” and “Pokémon Let’s go Eevee”??? What?

 

[Geno Boost]

If the roster is that great? Smashboards better be like a nuclear bomb dropped on it after E3.

I can expect a lot of salty people complaining about the last minute clones of smash switch

 

[MysticKnives]

Wouldn't mind Eevee. Though if we were to get another Gen I rep, I'd want Kabutops or Alakazam. Personally, I want Breloom, Hydreigon, or Haxorus more than any other Pokemon though.

 

[Cosmic77]

It's not that I'm entirely against another Gen I Pokemon. I just don't want to see one steal away the only planned spot from a newer Pokemon who comes from a newer Gen.

If we were to get Eevee in addition to a Gen VII Pokemon, I'd be content. Granted, I still wouldn't care much about Eevee's inclusion, but at least the current Gen would still get a rep.

 

[Nekoo]

As long as we finally get something akin to a true postgame in this new version of Pokémon and no more handholding in everycity full of cutscenes, I don't mind what's the next version of Pokémon is.

The "Battle frontier project begin" salt from ORAS
And the 6 hours of mandatory cutscene in Sun/Moon alongside a barebone postgame still make me mad to this days.

 

[Roberk]

Eh. If anyone complains about Pokemon or Mario getting more reps than other franchises and complains at Sakurai for it. He has a right to start a grease fire in their house.

They are the two biggest Nintendo franchises that everyone knows worldwide. If he wanted to have 12 Pokemon and 12 Mario. Let him.

That's just how I feel on the matter though. It just feels like and I've used this analogy before walking into a Disney theme park and complaining that Mickey Mouse and Disney Princesses are everywhere.

Wanting a rep of a gen other than gen 1 doesn't equal not wanting a pokemon rep. It's not like people are complaining about Pokémon representation, it's people complaining about Gen 1 representation.

 

[Bebe Mignon]

I'd vastly prefer Eevee over any Generation VII Pokemon. I just don't find any of them appealing to me at all.

Edit: If I'm understanding this correctly, Emily is sorta implying that the Pokemon Go! Pikachu and Pokemon Go! Eevee leak is real.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Wanting a rep of a gen other than gen 1 doesn't equal not wanting a pokemon rep. It's not like people are complaining about Pokémon representation, it's people complaining about Gen 1 representation.

Gen 1 is still the most popular rep. You might not personally like that. I think there's some nifty Pokemon post that Gen that deserve it as well.

But it's like Smash isn't made with only the hardcore in mind. Nothing is. And that's the problem gamers in general have and why we can get so entitled. We forget we're not the only one playing these games. They're not just for us.

 

[Nekoo]

Insert sad Gen 3 Trumpet and Sad Gen 5 Techno for no playable Representation in Smash ever.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

If Sakurai does try to avoid tons of newcomers or is starting to make bigger limits on a franchise size, Pokemon will probably stop getting Gen 1 Newcomers. Fire Emblem would be another series he'd slow down on characters too.

We already know the roster size isn't going to severely increase over and over again. So decisions has to be made. He's unlikely to cut 1-character series bar extreme circumstances, so it makes sense why stuff like Pokemon has gotten multiple cuts. So who knows how it'll go. But it's not unbelievable he'll stop giving lots of Pokemon and mostly give 1-2 max per game, including DLC.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

The only thing I'm choosing to gleam from Emily's tease is that there will be a good amount of newcomers, at least average. I can't see anyone seeing just adding Inklings and a couple other characters to the already existing roster and calling it The Ultimate Smash Roster. That would basically mean we've already had the ultimate roster lol.

Eevee is both an interesting and kind of impossible character idea. I'd love it because Sylveon is one of my favorite Pokemon but I don't know how the Moveset would work. The defining trait of Eevee is the evolutions but I don't expect a character with 8-9 different move sets lol.

 

[Opossum]

My issue with Eevee is that it's a Gen I Pokémon that isn't Marowak, Snorlax, or Venusaur.

 

[T-Donor66]

I'd vastly prefer Eevee over any Generation VII Pokemon. I just don't find any of them appealing to me at all.

Edit: If I'm understanding this correctly, Emily is sorta implying that the Pokemon Go! Pikachu and Pokemon Go! Eevee leak is real.

Kinda sounds like she’s giving herself an easy out in case it doesn’t get announced this month tbh.

 

[Pazzo.]

It's easy to hedge your bets with a "leak" like that.

I'll believe it when MOTHER 3 releases.

 

[Roberk]

Gen 1 is still the most popular rep. You might not personally like that. I think there's some nifty Pokemon post that Gen that deserve it as well.

But it's like Smash isn't made with only the hardcore in mind. Nothing is. And that's the problem gamers in general have and why we can get so entitled. We forget we're not the only one playing these games. They're not just for us.

Oh of course, Gen 1 is definitely the most popular and I'm not trying to knock that. If it gets reps I completely understand. The point is that I was defending people who wanted reps of gens other than gen 1. In your original post you were comparing Pokémon as a franchise getting reps over other franchises, which wasn't the point with the expressed dissapointment of a potential Eevee/Gen 1 Pokémon.