Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Weeman]

What if there are no newcomers besides the Inklings and Ekans???!!!

 

[osby]

King K. Rool can't even get back into his own series. The ballot votes may make Nintendo request Retro readd him to the series since he has fan popularity but I still can't see him making it this time.

I know this is Smashboards suicide but surely I'm not the only one who thinks he's not getting in until he puts an appearance in modern DK? Nintendo is a business at the end of the day, and each iteration seems to celebrate the previous generations achievements with the token retro thrown in to celebrate 'Nintendo's history'.

It's why I doubt we'll ever see an Advance Wars character, a Golden Sun one, etc despite wanting both.

Chibi-Robo still put an appearance in last generation but this really does feel like his last chance, at least to me...I hope he makes it, that little robot deserves a second chance at success.

I'd like to see Chibi-Robo as well. And, agreed with the rest, too. Smash actually have a small amount of retro characters and all of them are protagonists of their own games. Also they all seem to represent hardwares of Nintendo:

NES: Ice Climbers
Arcade: Little Mac
Zapper: Duck Hunt
Mr. Game & Watch and R.O.B. are practically hardwares themselves.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I like how all the people who think K. Rool can't get in because of his "irrelevancy" ignore the fact that Geno of all characters was not just considered but wanted by Sakurai. Not that I think K. Rool is some shoo-in or anything like that (far from it) but people aredefinetly overestimating how much "relevancy" would hurt his chance.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I'd like to see Chibi-Robo as well. And, agreed with the rest, too. Smash actually have a small amount of retro characters and all of them are protagonists of their own games. Also they all seem to represent hardwares of Nintendo:

NES: Ice Climbers
Arcade: Little Mac
Zapper: Duck Hunt
Mr. Game & Watch and R.O.B. are practically hardwares themselves.

Little Mac is also hardly a retro rep because his series got a revival. (Edit: I stand very corrected. Actually makes sense considering the trend of retro + historical. Idk why I thought there was a different retro rep...)

But yea, to take your point to another character sugestion I'm personally not a fan of, I don't get why people suggest Ganon as a "retro" rep. We've never had a retro character presented from a series that has other viable character options and he's not the protagnonist like you said. Heck, Ganon is even still present in games just not in the way people want him represented in smash.

Unfortunately King K. Rool is in a similar situation, with just his popularity giving him a chance.

I like how all the people who think K. Rool can't get in because of his "irrelevancy" ignore the fact that Geno of all characters was not just considered but wanted by Sakurai. Not that I think K. Rool is some shoo-in or anything like that (far from it) but people aredefinetly overestimating how much "relevancy" would hurt his chance.

Geno actually is a retro rep however. That and there aren't more viable characters from his game. King K. Rool's biggest competion is Dixie Kong, who is also very popular. It would be great to have them both though.

 

[Cosmic77]

King K. Rool can't even get back into his own series. The ballot votes may make Nintendo request Retro readd him to the series since he has fan popularity but I still can't see him making it this time.

I know this is Smashboards suicide but surely I'm not the only one who thinks he's not getting in until he puts an appearance in modern DK? Nintendo is a business at the end of the day, and each iteration seems to celebrate the previous generations achievements with the token retro thrown in to celebrate 'Nintendo's history'.

It's why I doubt we'll ever see an Advance Wars character, a Golden Sun one, etc despite wanting both.

Chibi-Robo still put an appearance in last generation but this really does feel like his last chance, at least to me...I hope he makes it, that little robot deserves a second chance at success.

Well, you're not wrong.

Despite having an enormous amount of popularity, timing is just undeniably terrible for K. Rool. To make matters worse for his case, there are three other characters from the DK franchise that have done something noteworthy in recent years, and any of them would be an understandable inclusion. K. Rool has the popularity, but he doesn't have the relevancy to support him. I definitely see that as an obstacle for him.

I like how all the people who think K. Rool can't get in because of his "irrelevancy" ignore the fact that Geno of all characters was not just considered but wanted by Sakurai. Not that I think K. Rool is some shoo-in or anything like that (far from it) but people aredefinetly overestimating how much "relevancy" would hurt his chance.

The only problem with your argument is that Geno didn't get in Smash, despite Sakurai considering and wanting him. A comparison like this doesn't exactly make a good case for K. Rool.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I like how all the people who think K. Rool can't get in because of his "irrelevancy" ignore the fact that Geno of all characters was not just considered but wanted by Sakurai. Not that I think K. Rool is some shoo-in or anything like that (far from it) but people aredefinetly overestimating how much "relevancy" would hurt his chance.

Yes but Geno also wasn't added.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Little Mac is also hardly a retro rep because his series got a revival.

The idea that characters from the NES era no longer counts as retro "reps" because of a new game is just a fan assumption. Excitebiker was one of the characters considered for an NES representative in Melee despite the fact he already had an upcoming game that was revealed to people back in May 12, 1999.

 

[mario123007]

I would bet money on Elma being playable. I don't even like Xenoblade. But it makes a lot of sense.

I highly suspect that a lot of the characters will be pulled from the Wii U and 3DS generation.

Um yeah... Elma or Cross I think they are more likely but Rex is my personal wish and hus inclusion can make people more hype in my opinion.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Yes but Geno also wasn't added.

Doesn't matter. Of all the reason why he didn't make it in, Sakurai never rejected him due to "irrelevance"

Of course, the biggest difference is that K. Rool isn't owned by a third-party company that would have to (and for obvious reasons in the case of Geno, wouldn't) approve of the idea of him being playable in Smash. K. Rool's a first-party character, so the only one who needs to approve of him would be Sakurai. Thus any assumption that he would reject K. Rool just because of "irrelevancy" is just that, a fan-based assumption.

And this is coming from someone who isn't that confident in K. Rool's chance.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

What if there are no newcomers besides the Inklings and Ekans???!!!

People said they want Snake back, so I'm sure they'd take it even if it's a bit of a backwards way of going about it.

Honestly though, I'd like that roster more than what we have like a 70% chance of getting, since Ekans would be unorthodox but not overdesigned in the way most new pokemon are (e.g. owlboi). Literally the only character that has a chance that I care about is Waddle Dee, and even then there are several characters from Kirby I'd rather have over him.

Sir Kibble for Smash

 

[Pacack]

Little Mac is also hardly a retro rep because his series got a revival.

Not related to the rest of your post, but I figure I should mention this.

While I thought this at first too, apparently Sakurai considers him more of an arcade/Famicom retro than anything.

Punch-Out!!” arcade machines were in operation thirty years ago. The game was copyrighted in 1983–the same year that saw the birth of the Famicom.

Everything about the game was incredible to me: the wire-frame avatar and the cartoonishly exaggerated opponents, the multi-screen display reminiscent of the Nintendo DS, the synthesized speech. In a genre that tends toward launching punches at random, this game stood out as one that encouraged you to logically consider how to attack the opponent.

I suppose the Famicom version of the game is far more popular–which I of course understand, but its arcade predecessor is a classic in its own right.

Source

So, that gives us one retro and one historical character per game:




Regarding Duck Hunt:

The Duck Hunt "franchise" first saw a Nintendo release in 1976...as a toy. And it's not the first of the games they made featuring a light gun. Nintendo's first series of light gun toys were released as early as 1970 (potentially the first commercial Light Guns ever sold). I only bring it up because I think Duck Hunt is a representation of more than just the Famicom Light Gun series of games - he's a representative of the pre-Famicom era too.

The Light Gun toys were made by a number of people who moved on to become some of Nintendo's biggest names, like Masayuki Uemura (Nintendo R&D2 Director until 2004), Takehiro Izushi (former Nintendo R&D1 Director, retired this year), and Gunpei Yukoi himself. These toys became a benchmark for the company and helped to shape its very philosophy - a focus on reconsidering norms of one's field and, in particular, on innovative hardware designs. Everything from R.O.B. and the Power Glove to the DS, Wii, and Switch has stemmed from this point in Nintendo's history.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Obviously relevancy plays a huge part in choosing new characters, but I think it's worth pointing out that the amount of marketable options they can add are fairly limited in comparison to last time. Like, how many heavy hitters have come out between Smash 4 and when Smash 5's roster was likely decided? A few for sure, but not as many as they would have hoped, the Wii U's last few years were pretty barren and even the 3DS really doesn't have too much to pick from, so unless we get very few newcomers this time they can't fill out every newcomer spot with just marketable characters and a sprinkle of retro this time.

That doesn't mean they have to include K. Rool or other non-relevant characters, but I think it at least means there's a decent chance they were taken into serious consideration because of a lack of good options.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Like, how many heavy hitters have come out between Smash 4 and when Smash 5's roster was likely decided?

Just one, really, and they were already confirmed to be in Smash Switch.

 

[Pacack]

Obviously relevancy plays a huge part in choosing new characters, but I think it's worth pointing out that the amount of marketable options they can add are fairly limited in comparison to last time. Like, how many heavy hitters have come out between Smash 4 and when Smash 5's roster was likely decided? A few for sure, but not as many as they would have hoped, the Wii U's last few years were pretty barren and there really isn't too much to pick from, so unless we get very few newcomers this time they can't fill out every newcomer spot with just marketable characters and a sprinkle of retro this time.

That doesn't mean they have to include K. Rool or other non-relevant characters, but I think it at least gives them a better chance of having been taken seriously into consideration.

Just one, really, and they were already confirmed to be in Smash Switch.

Characters from games between Smash 4 and Smash 5's roster selection include:

Inklings (duh), Captain Toad, Dixie Kong, Decidueye, Wolf, Bandana Waddle Dee, Elma, Celica, and Chibi Robo.

I think all of those characters have a decent chance, with Celica and Chibi Robo being significantly less likely than the others.

EDIT: My mistake on when SoV came out (I recalled it coming out earlier than it did for some reason), disregard Celica from this list.

 

[Cosmic77]

Doesn't matter. Of all the reason why he didn't make it in, Sakurai never rejected him due to "irrelevance"

Sakurai never gave an official reason why Geno was rejected. He acknowledged Geno's popularity and agreed that a playable Geno sounded cool, but admitted that he wasn't able to make it happen. For all we know, Geno's irrelevance might have actually been what held him back.

Inklings (duh), Captain Toad, Dixie Kong, Decidueye, Wolf, Bandana Waddle Dee, Elma, Celica, and Chibi Robo.

I think all of those characters have a decent chance, with Celica and Chibi Robo being significantly less likely than the others.

Just wanted to point something out.

SoV started its development shortly after Fates was finished. If you think Celica has a small chance, then why don't you think Spring Man or Rex are very likely? Unless the team for both games worked at godspeed, development for both games should have started AT LEAST around the same time SoV started, if not long before then.

 

[Pacack]

Sakurai never gave an official reason why Geno was rejected. He acknowledged Geno's popularity and agreed that a playable Geno sounded cool, but admitted that he wasn't able to make it happen. For all we know, Geno's irrelevance might have actually been what held him back.



Just wanted to point something out.

SoV started its development shortly after Fates was finished. If you think Celica has a small chance, then why don't you think Spring Man or Rex are very likely? Unless the team for both games worked at godspeed, development for both games should have started AT LEAST around the same time SoV started, if not long before then.

You're right. It was a mistake on my part; I thought SoV came out before that. Disregard her from that list.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Geno actually is a retro rep however. That and there aren't more viable characters from his game. King K. Rool's biggest competion is Dixie Kong, who is also very popular. It would be great to have them both though.

A Mario series character from a 1996 game counts as "retro" (despite the franchise he comes from still being active) but a character that made his debut 2 years earlier isn't "retro" by the same logic? That makes no sense!

Also, there are several Square Enix characters who could and would take priority over Geno. So he still has competition.

SoV started its development shortly after Fates was finished. If you think Celica has a small chance, then why don't you think Spring Man or Rex are very likely? Unless the team for both games worked at godspeed, development for both games should have started AT LEAST around the same time SoV started, if not long before then.

I think the biggest difference is that SoV was intended to be released in 2016 before being delayed, making her situation more comparable to Lucas in Brawl if anything. This key detail could very well save her as Sakurai could consider her with the assumption that SoV would release soon. Sakurai did work on Roy with the assumption that Binding Blade was to be released before Melee.

 

[Pacack]

I think the biggest difference is that SoV was intended to be released in 2016 before being delayed, making her situation more comparable to Lucas in Brawl if anything. This key detail could very well save her as Sakurai could consider her with the assumption that SoV would release soon. Sakurai did work on Roy with the assumption that Binding Blade was to be released before Melee.

Oh, that's why I thought the game came out in 2016. I didn't realize that it was delayed.

 

[Antimatter042]

Characters from games between Smash 4 and Smash 5's roster selection include:

Inklings (duh), Captain Toad, Dixie Kong, Decidueye, Wolf, Bandana Waddle Dee, Elma, Celica, and Chibi Robo.

I think all of those characters have a decent chance, with Celica and Chibi Robo being significantly less likely than the others.

No offence to Chibi-Robo fans, but after Zip Lash crashed and burned so spectacularly I have no idea why he's considered to be even feasible for this game, let alone likely. Zip Lash's negative impact on its series was leagues worse than Star Fox Zero, and I still think added SF representation hangs solely on Wolf being a veteran. People bring up that Sakurai takes a wait and see approach with unrepresented IPs, which is why Spring Man is deemed less likely, but Sakurai was effectively given ample time to wait and see Chibi-Robo's franchise blow itself to bits unceremoniously right before starting a new Smash. I wouldn't be opposed to the little guy, but a lot of people saying 2014-2016 games are getting represented with this game often forget Nintendo don't want to advertise games that people don't enjoy. One tweet of a niche character on fire isn't saving him, especially when the last thing Nintendo publicly set ablaze was Mother 3's localisation prospects 4 years ago.

 

[Opossum]

the inklings didn't get in more so having to do with the fact the systems to properly do them weren't in smash 4. bayonetta had witch time already in the game. cloud already had equipment for limit. there were no water effects in 4.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, there was Mario's FLUDD and Greninja.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

A Mario series character from a 1996 game counts as "retro" (despite the franchise he comes from still being active) but a character that made his debut 2 years earlier isn't "retro" by the same logic? That makes no sense!

Also, there are several Square Enix characters who could and would take priority over Geno. So he still has competition.

This kind of goes back to my uncertainty surrounding the term "retro rep" that I discussed several pages back. Like, several pages lol.

For example I didn't consider Little Mac a retro rep because of his recent revival, however Sakurai clearly did. For me Geno, a character that hasn't had an actual appearance since that game (not counting cameos) does count as a retro rep. Just because King K. Rool debuted in 1994 doesn't make him a retro rep in my oppinion, I mean by that logic is Ridley considered a retro rep? Toad?

Now whether King K. Rool is considered a retro rep because he hasn't had an canon appearance since N64, that's where I think it's debatable. I still stand by that we haven't had a "retro" character added to an already represented series when there are other viable options. If we think of King K. Rool as a retro character I think his chances of getting in before Dixie diminish. Retro picks are a more confusing conversation than I thought.

 

[Nekoo]

A Mario series character from a 1996 game counts as "retro" (despite the franchise he comes from still being active) but a character that made his debut 2 years earlier isn't "retro" by the same logic? That makes no sense!

Yeah- I sure loved playing Geno in the last Mario RPG on 3DS- Always nice to see him.

 

[Pacack]

No offence to Chibi-Robo fans, but after Zip Lash crashed and burned so spectacularly I have no idea why he's considered to be even feasible for this game, let alone likely. Zip Lash's negative impact on its series was leagues worse than Star Fox Zero, and I still think added SF representation hangs solely on Wolf being a veteran. People bring up that Sakurai takes a wait and see approach with unrepresented IPs, which is why Spring Man is deemed less likely, but Sakurai was effectively given ample time to wait and see Chibi-Robo's franchise blow itself to bits unceremoniously right before starting a new Smash. I wouldn't be opposed to the little guy, but a lot of people saying 2014-2016 games are getting represented with this game often forget Nintendo don't want to advertise games that people don't enjoy. One tweet of a niche character on fire isn't saving him, especially when the last thing Nintendo publicly set ablaze was Mother 3's localisation prospects 4 years ago.

Fair, but the fact that the series had a (international) release puts it in a better place than several (see: Golden Sun, Advance Wars).

I don't expect him, but he's a possibility that I think ought to be considered.

 

[APC99]

I think the cut-off point for choosing characters was around mid-2016, imo. And before I hear about Champion Link, we've known about BotW since E3 2014, before Smash 3DS / Wii U even launched. I have no doubt Sakurai went into Smash Switch's development knowing that the Zelda cast would be based on BotW. I think the newest character on base roster will probably be a Gen 7 Pokemon.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I think the cut-off point for choosing characters was around mid-2016, imo. And before I hear about Champion Link, we've known about BotW since E3 2014, before Smash 3DS / Wii U even launched. I have no doubt Sakurai went into Smash Switch's development knowing that the Zelda cast would be based on BotW. I think the newest character on base roster will probably be a Gen 7 Pokemon.

If that is the case I'll be fine with that. I do hope we get a decent number of ballot choices.

 

[Pacack]

Characters from games between Smash 4 and Smash 5's roster selection include:

Inklings (duh), Captain Toad, Dixie Kong, Decidueye, Wolf, Bandana Waddle Dee, Elma, Celica, and Chibi Robo.

I think all of those characters have a decent chance, with Celica and Chibi Robo being significantly less likely than the others.

EDIT: My mistake on when SoV came out (I recalled it coming out earlier than it did for some reason), disregard Celica from this list.

Oh, duh.

Isabelle too. She's super popular, and I could see her being considered. Like, my friends who are only casually Nintendo fans still know and love Isabelle.

 

[Antimatter042]

Fair, but the fact that the series had a (international) release puts it in a better place than several (see: Golden Sun, Advance Wars).

I don't expect him, but he's a possibility that I think ought to be considered.

He's in a better spot than Isaac and Ray, that's for sure (some insane Golden Sun renaissance via the Ballot notwithstanding), but I think the character in a position most comparable to Chibi-Robo is probably Henry Fleming. Maybe not the most perfect analogy given Robo's backlog of games that Fleming lacks, but both had otherwise primetime Smash releases that simply failed to gain momentum.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Sakurai never gave an official reason why Geno was rejected. He acknowledged Geno's popularity and agreed that a playable Geno sounded cool, but admitted that he wasn't able to make it happen. For all we know, Geno's irrelevance might have actually been what held him back.

I'm pretty sure it's been well-established that Geno's most likely issue is licencing.

 

[Pacack]

He's in a better spot than Isaac and Ray, that's for sure (some insane Golden Sun renaissance via the Ballot notwithstanding), but I think the character in a position most comparable to Chibi-Robo is probably Henry Fleming. Maybe not the most perfect analogy given Robo's backlog of games that Fleming lacks, but both had otherwise primetime Smash releases that simply failed to gain momentum.

The best chance for Chibi Robo that I see is that Sakurai wants to save the series from dying. (It was said by the creators that Whiplash was the series' last chance, so without a Smash nod, Chibi Robo is probably dead.)

 

[Cosmic77]

I'm pretty sure it's been well-established that Geno's most likely issue is licencing.

And yet we got a Geno costume in Smash 4?

 

[Nekoo]

And yet we got a Geno costume in Smash 4?

Yeah with Cloud. Y'know- that nobody from Square Enix, not as famous as Geno from that unknown Game Dragon Quest VII
I Don't know why Sakurai decided to take Cloud when he could have discussed for Geno R I G H T?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

And yet we got a Geno costume in Smash 4?

There's a world of difference between Square-Enix approving of the idea of Geno as a costume vs a fully playable character. Keep in mind that Square-Enix didn't even include him in the two Mario sports games they collaborated with Nintendo on, despite how easily they could. It's clear they have little interest in Geno.

 

[Deleted member]

What if there are no newcomers besides the Inklings and Ekans???!!!

Not CHAAAABAKA?

Surely you must be joking.

 

[Originality]

The best chance for Chibi Robo that I see is that Sakurai wants to save the series from dying. (It was said by the creators that Whiplash was the series' last chance, so without a Smash nod, Chibi Robo is probably dead.)

Chibi Robo is my most wanted for this exact reason. I just hope his recent use in advertising is indicative of a spot in the roster, but I recognize the chances are very slim.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Yeah with Cloud. Y'know- that nobody from Square Enix, not as famous as Geno from that unknown Game Dragon Quest VII
I Don't know why Sakurai decided to take Cloud when he could have discussed for Geno R I G H T?

Is it wrong that I'm imagining an alternate reality where Geno is the most iconic JRPG character and Cloud is just a minor character from a Legend of Zelda RPG?

 

[Nekoo]

Is it wrong that I'm imagining an alternate reality where Geno is the most iconic JRPG character and Cloud is just a minor character from a Legend of Zelda RPG?

It means In that Reality that the Nintendo x Sony Console happened and that Nintendo is probably the only Console Maker on the market.
I dunno- if I should be affraid or not of a reality where Nintendo is the Disney of Video Games

 

[Antimatter042]

It means In that Reality that the Nintendo x Sony Console happened and that Nintendo is probably the only Console Maker on the market.
I dunno- if I should be affraid or not of a reality where Nintendo is the Disney of Video Games

Given Nintendo's capacity to innovate is one of their defining traits and that monopolies naturally lead to stagnation, I think Nintendo games (and honestly video games as a whole) would be far worse in that reality than they are in this one. No amount of strong and lovable IPs, even with high quality products, takes away from the fact that a company as powerful as Disney (or more so in relative terms) would be pretty unhealthy for gaming.

 

[Pacack]

Given Nintendo's capacity to innovate is one of their defining traits and that monopolies naturally lead to stagnation, I think Nintendo games (and honestly video games as a whole) would be far worse in that reality than they are in this one. No amount of strong and lovable IPs, even with high quality products, takes away from the fact that a company as powerful as Disney (or more so in relative terms) would be pretty unhealthy for gaming.

While I understand the sentiment, I've always felt that Nintendo's innovations were done due to their core design philosophy rather than because of their competition. Even when they have had little to no competition, they've continued innovating for the sake of creating something novel and new (see: handheld game market).

 

[domriver]

Just a thought I wonder if they will use Bayonetta's REAL name or at least have the option to using it. Cereza.

 

[MrReyes96]

I had a dream that there was a mario tennis trailer and both Waluigi and Isabelle were confirmed
The trailer ended with Isabelle smashing an assist trophy case with her tennis racket