Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Llort A. Ton]

So I would like to survey about third-parties to get some different perspectives:

1. Do you think all of the third-parties will be heavily determined by ballot results?

2. Do you think there will be special cases for third-parties to where demand is not a factor, such as Sakurai possibly working with Bandai Namco to negotiate a character like Heihachi?

3. In your opinion what are the chances of Smash Switch getting a Western third-party?

4. Is there a chance we will be seeing 3+ third-parties for this new Smash Switch game?

5. Which third-parties do you feel are in the brink of getting cut?

I would appreciate in-depth answers.

1. Most will for sure, but I do expect 1 or 2 to be based on other reasons (advertisement, Sakurais buddies, sheer iconicness etc).

2. Yes. Notable examples are Heihachi (Namco helping with Smash bros) and Rayman (ubisoft partnerships), and of course, Snake in Brawl. Or, Sakurai could just really want a particular character with rights easy to obtain (maybe he's a huge Joe & Mac fan or something ?)

3. Very high. It just makes too much sense to include characters that originated from different parts of the world to have a more worldwide appeal. Sooner or later, there will be no more iconic japanese 3rd parties to include in the game, and I really don't see Sakurai including someone like Blaster Master over Crash Bandicoot in the future just because Crash isn't Japanese.

4. Considering how many 3rd parties we saw last game, I think it is a safe bet to say we will see 3 3rd party newcomers base game.

5. I think each 3rd party has enough merits to say they have at least a decent shot at returning, so I'll give my analysis 1 by 1.

- Through thick and thin, Sonic's popularity will never fade. He will come back.
- As long as Nintendo funds Bayonetta games, she will not leave.
- Too iconic to just throw away. The ONLY way I see Pac Man getting cut is if Namco isn't helping out with this game, and that somehow gets them upset and deny Pac Man rights.
- It pains me to say this, but he isn't as iconic as Pac Man or Sonic. HOWEVER, he is very popular among the hardcore Nintendo crowd. The demand for and success of his inclusion in 4 has made Capcom more invested in the series (See Megaman 11).
- Most iconic 3rd party behind Pac Man and Sonic. With Street Fighter games being on switch, he's more "relevant" to Nintendo than he was when he actually got included.
- Final Fantasy is very popular, and SE has been very supportive of Switch. Unless Square changed their minds for some reason, he is also safe.
- Tricky to say for sure, but he has some things going for him. We still don't know why Snake was cut for sure from Smash Bros 4. The roster was decided before any Konami vs Kojima issues, and even during that period, Kojima was still rooting for Snake to return. All we can say is that either Sakurai or someone high up at Nintendo didn't want Snake in the game. Maybe Sakurai & Kojima aren't the buds they used to be? I think they still are. With no clear reason as to why he sneaked away, Konami being supportive of the Switch at launch and his veteran status likely bringing him high ballot support, I say he is more likely than most would think. But, most in danger of getting cut (again).

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Personally I don't think we have solid basis to believe any of the current third parties are in any form of danger. Any suggestion that one of them is in danger is just because they're the third party someone least wants to return.

 

[Phaazoid]

was reading 'ivy' like Ivysaur returning and was very confused for a few seconds

 

[SonicMario]

Personally I don't think we have solid basis to believe any of the current third parties are in any form of danger. Any suggestion that one of them is in danger is just because they're the third party someone least wants to return.

I don't want any of the 3rd parties to go myself, I was just suggesting if there was one that might have a slight risk. Cloud's the most likely. But I certainly don't want Cloud to leave. He was actually my favorite out of all the DLC characters, and that includes the veterans.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Personally I don't think we have solid basis to believe any of the current third parties are in any form of danger.

I agree. Then again, it's not as if Snake had any reason to be cut from Smash, especially back in 2012 and all the reasons commonly cited by detractors back before Smash 4 was released were already invalidated by him being in Brawl. Ultimately, because Snake was cut (despite no real explanation why as well as the fact that Kojima still wanted Snake in Smash 4) I don't think we can say with 100% certainty that no third-party character is going to be cut from Smash Switch.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Cloud's situation is probably the most questionable, due to the way that Smash 3DS / Wii U represented Final Fantasy VII; the lack of remixes can easily show how strict Square Enix is with its property.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I agree. Then again, it's not as if Snake had any reason to be cut from Smash, especially back in 2012 and all the reasons commonly cited by detractors back before Smash 4 was released were already invalidated by him being in Brawl. Ultimately, because Snake was cut (despite no real explanation why as well as the fact that Kojima still wanted Snake in Smash 4) I don't think we can say with 100% certainty that no third-party character is going to be cut from Smash Switch.

Oh, I'm not trying to suggest that they're all definitely coming back. I'm merely stating that the only reasons for us to say one will be cut over the other are arbitrary at best because there is absolutely nothing tangible going against any of the current third parties.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

People are so hung up on the oddest thing to make it seems like Cloud is getting cut to me. Like there's so much to Cloud's situation people tend to forget. So he didn't have a lot of music or trophies.

He had an alternate costume, stage with multiple hazards and while unlike Ridley most changed the terrain of his stage, a Chocobo costume (who is a separate likeness to negotiate), a Geno costume (another separate likeness to negotiate).

The Limit Break system which required all his moves be made twice and balanced/tested twice. Honestly. There was a lot of stuff with Cloud. It wasn't just the stuff you guys wanted it seems. Music and trophies are nice, but Cloud wasn't really lacking content outside of an English voice, music, and trophies.

 

[Pazzo.]

People are so hung up on the oddest thing to make it seems like Cloud is getting cut to me. Like there's so much to Cloud's situation people tend to forget. So he didn't have a lot of music or trophies.

He had an alternate costume, stage with multiple hazards and while unlike Ridley most changed the terrain of his stage, a Chocobo costume (who is a separate likeness to negotiate), a Geno costume (another separate likeness to negotiate).

The Limit Break system which required all his moves be made twice and balanced/tested twice. Honestly. There was a lot of stuff with Cloud. It wasn't just the stuff you guys wanted it seems. Music and trophies are nice, but Cloud wasn't really lacking content outside of an English voice, music, and trophies.

The same argument can be made for Snake.

New stage, multiple musical tracks, a whole new mechanic in the Codex conversations, a stage with multi-game references...

He had Cloud's content and more. So while a lack of content doesn't mean cutting, an abundance of it doesn't either.

 

[SSBBDaisy]

Right now I don't care about new content. I care about safe approaches and safe shield pressure and movement options.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

The same argument can be made for Snake.

New stage, multiple musical tracks, a whole new mechanic in the Codex conversations, a stage with multi-game references...

He had Cloud's content and more. So while a lack of content doesn't mean cutting, an abundance of it doesn't either.

Snake also has a company who was a little *****.

Square Enix isn't a little ***** when it comes to Nintendo at the moment.

They've also abundantly said they jumped at having Cloud in Smash.

So like....again? Apples can not be compared to oranges, my friend.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Cloud is welcome to come back in my book, as long as he gets the nerfs he deserves. I don't understand why he's able to manually charge his Limit Gauge, nor do I understand why a fully charged gauge increases his stats.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

We also don't know why Snake was actually cut. Remember, Sakurai didn't ask Kojima for him back. Not that he owned him anymore, but we don't know the situation at all. It's possible it was Konami saying no. But there could be something else we're missing. We have little information. That's why it's useless to mention him when it comes to cut 3rd parties. He doesn't mean anything till we know the context of what happened.

Cloud has a good chance to stay, and while the overall content was obviously small(but so was Ryu, remember), it's clear a lot of work was put onto him. And even then, licensing isn't that cheap either way. So it's understandable what happened. The DLC Budget is probably not that big, and it was easiest to get a lot from Bayonetta due to Nintendo connections and all, plus Sega being far more buddy-buddy with Nintendo than many companies. That helps a lot.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I'm wagering Nintendo told him no Snake since Konami all but stopped supporting Nintendo during the Wii U era.

 

[Pazzo.]

Snake also has a company who was a little *****.

Square Enix isn't a little ***** when it comes to Nintendo at the moment.

They've also abundantly said they jumped at having Cloud in Smash.

So like....again? Apples can not be compared to oranges, my friend.

Straight from Kojima's mouth: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/new...y-to-Return-in-Super-Smash-Bros-4-Says-Kojima

That means around 2012 when Sakurai was planning SSB4, he wasn't contacting Konami. Consider that Cloud was probably sought after by Sakurai himself instead of Square coming to Nintendo.

Konami's misconduct wasn't brought to public attention until 2015, and if Kojima had told Sakurai about the issues with his employee earlier, why ask for Snake in Melee?

I think this has to do with Snake and Cloud being very unconventional newcomers, and if we're going by what the past shows, Cloud's far from safe.

 

[Arcanir]

The thing to remember about Konami is that the issues we have with the company didn't become apparent until after 2012, beforehand everything seemed fine. You could argue that things were going wrong behind the scenes, but without a proper timeline or statements it's really anyone's guess when things started to fall apart for the company. We can't assume that was the reason for Snake's exclusion when it was never alluded to being the case outside of our speculation on the matter, it could've been, but it's not a certainty.

I'm wagering Nintendo told him no Snake since Konami all but stopped supporting Nintendo during the Wii U era.

Konami was supportive of the 3DS until 2013 at least considering they put Snake Eater and Castlevania on the system. They didn't support the Wii U that much, but that's third parties in general as support in general was awful for the system, you can't blame Konami for an issue that was present with multiple other companies.

If there was any ill will between the companies, it wasn't really reflected in support until after the project plan was drafted. If Snake was planned for the game, then I think Sakurai would've asked for him before anything went wrong with the companies.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Snake also has a company who was a little *****.

That factor wasn't relevant back in 2012 since there were no indication at the time that Konami would have been unreasonable when it came to the idea of Snake in Smash 4. Especially since Kojima still wanted Snake in Smash even back before we learned he had been cut from Smash.

The thing to remember about Konami is that the issues we have with the company didn't become apparent until after 2012, beforehand everything seemed fine. You could argue that things were going wrong behind the scenes, but without a proper timeline or statements it's really anyone's guess when things started to fall apart for the company. We can't assume that was the reason for Snake's exclusion when it was never alluded to being the case outside of our speculation on the matter, it could've been, but it's not a certainty.



Konami was supportive of the 3DS until 2013 at least considering they put Snake Eater and Castlevania on the system. They didn't support the Wii U that much, but that's third parties in general as support in general was awful for the system, you can't blame Konami for an issue that was present with multiple other companies.

If there was any ill will between the companies, it wasn't really reflected in support until after the project plan was drafted.

This post nails it.There is no evidence Snake was cut due to Nintendo or Konami. I guess the only reason Snake was cut is because Sakurai didn't want him back. At the very least, it's the only explanation that remotely makes sense.

 

[Cosmic77]

Even if Square Enix isn't an issue like we think they are, I'm still putting Cloud at the back of my list for returning third-parties.

What can I say? Out of the six third-parties we have right now, it seems like Cloud has the least going in his favor. He doesn't have the wild fan demand like Sonic and Mega Man. He lacks the extreme iconicness that Pac-Man has. He doesn't have the support from Nintendo like Bayo is getting.

If Nintendo were to drop one third-party character, I'd have a hard time picturing it be anyone besides Ryu or Cloud. Between the two, it seems like Ryu and his franchise would be the bigger priority for obvious reasons. Cloud and Final Fantasy just doesn't offer Nintendo as much as the other five.

 

[Sonic Poke]

I think Roy, Mewtwo and Lucas are in more risk of being cut than Cloud. Square Enix wouldn't let him be playable if there was an issue with it. And as far as we know, SE could have asked for it.

Mewtwo and Roy didn't make the cut twice, and are only in the game because of DLC.

If I had to order the chance of cut from more likely to less likely I would put it like this:


Anyway, I'd rather have any of those three over Cloud any time to be honest.

 

[Pazzo.]

It may be Sakurai wanted Brawl Snake to be exclusive.

Probably not, but why else would he pass over the first 3rd party character?

We just can't know.

 

[Cosmic77]

If I had to order the chance of cut from more likely to less likely I would put it like this:


Anyway, I'd rather have any of those three over Cloud any time to be honest.

If Sakurai deems three niche clones more important than a completely unique character who happens to be one of the most popular and most iconic Pokémon of all time, then he really needs to get his priorities straight.

Seriously, regardless of whether or not he'd take longer to make, Mewtwo should definitely be at the top of that list.

 

[Blargg888]

If Sakurai deems three niche clones more important than a completely unique character who happens to be one of the most popular and most iconic Pokémon of all time, then he really needs to get his priorities straight.

Seriously, regardless of whether or not he'd take longer to make, Mewtwo should definitely be at the top of that list.

I can maybe agree on Roy, but since when are Lucas and Mewtwo "niche clones"? They're not even clones.
Well, I suppose Mewtwo is, but that's not the point.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

If Sakurai deems three niche clones more important than a completely unique character who happens to be one of the most popular and most iconic Pokémon of all time, then he really needs to get his priorities straight.

Seriously, regardless of whether or not he'd take longer to make, Mewtwo should definitely be at the top of that list.

Falco was a "niche clone" and he was prioritised over Mewtwo. It wouldn't be completely shocking if Lucina ended up higher priority than him.

Also, I laugh at the idea that Lucas is a clone.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Snake and Cloud being called ''unconventional" is also another thing I have an issue with.

Neither are unconventional. Just because you deem them so by the standards of ''relevancy" to Nintendo. That's not why they got in.

Sakurai put Snake in for his friend, sure. But he also more than likely did it because he knew that Snake is the poster face for his particular genre of gaming.

Cloud is the very same way. He is the modernized JRPG.

There's nothing unconventional about either of them. If you think they're unconventional then I guess Ryu is as well?

 

[Sonic Poke]

If Sakurai deems three niche clones more important than a completely unique character who happens to be one of the most popular and most iconic Pokémon of all time, then he really needs to get his priorities straight.

Seriously, regardless of whether or not he'd take longer to make, Mewtwo should definitely be at the top of that list.

Agreed.
But unfourtunately it didn't happen twice.
Niche clones were added over Mewtwo at least three times.
In 64:
In Brawl:
In 4:
Of course in Brawl they were reworked and in Sm4sh it was last minute, so it wasn't exactly prioritized. But anyway, it happened.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I just don't see why Mewtwo would be low priority again after fans clamored for his return for so long and that he's surely been well received in his return in the latest game.

I mean, yeah, he wasn't part of the base game, but he was the very first character available as downloadable content. I think that still speaks volumes in it's own right.

I mean, sure, we can't assume just yet, but I find it hard to believe that Mewtwo won't be higher in priority than minimal effort clones like DP and Lucina this time.

 

[PLATINUM7]

Why even cut Mewtwo again when you bring him back as the first DLC character due to his popularity?

And **** you guys, why cut Cloud when he's ****ing Cloud Strife.

 

[Gumzilla]

The truth

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I just don't see why Mewtwo would be low priority again after fans clamored for his return for so long and that he's surely been well received in his return in the latest game.

I mean, yeah, he wasn't part of the base game, but he was the very first character available as downloadable content. I think that still speaks volumes in it's own right.

I mean, sure, we can't assume just yet, but I find it hard to believe that Mewtwo won't be higher in priority than minimal effort clones like DP and Lucina this time.

Because despite always being insanely popular as a Pokemon and a highly demanded character for Melee (which Sakurai was aware of), Sakurai still felt for some reason that Mewtwo should be low priority for Brawl which got him cut on the end. In addition, despite the huge fan demand for Smash 4 (which again, Sakurai was aware of) Mewtwo was not made high priority enough to make it to the base roster of Smash 4.

Given all that, the fact he was already cut and only made it to Smash 4 as DLC means that his popularity won't help him since he was always popular. Whatever factor made him low priority hasn't changed.

And yeah, the same kind of deal (but with the biggest difference being the level of popularity) is applicable to Roy and Lucas too.

 

[Tetra_________________]

SOOOOOOOOO this is a thingShrekBoards: Home

 

[PLATINUM7]

Because despite always being insanely popular as a Pokemon and a highly demanded character for Melee (which Sakurai was aware of), Sakurai still felt for some reason that Mewtwo should be low priority for Brawl which got him cut on the end. In addition, despite the huge fan demand for Smash 4 (which again, Sakurai was aware of) Mewtwo was not made high priority enough to make it to the base roster of Smash 4.

Given all that, the fact he was already cut and only made it to Smash 4 as DLC means that his popularity won't help him since he was always popular. Whatever factor made him low priority hasn't changed.

And yeah, the same kind of deal (but with the biggest difference being the level of popularity) is applicable to Roy and Lucas too.

If the DLC did well enough and people were excited enough is it not possible Mewtwo's priority could have changed?

It's not like Sakurai has static opinions of each character.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

You need to add some text to this post to prevent yourself from being infracted.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

If the DLC did well enough and people were excited enough is it not possible Mewtwo's priority could have changed?

It's not like Sakurai has static opinions of each character.

Maybe. But I extremely doubt it. Heck, an argument can perhaps even possibly be made that Mewtwo might be low priority because of how profitable he is.

That being said, I don't want any Pokemon cuts. Even though I expect cuts, I really don't see any good reason why any of the Pokemon we got should be cut. If anything we should have more in addition to the 6 we got.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Because despite always being insanely popular as a Pokemon and a highly demanded character for Melee (which Sakurai was aware of), Sakurai still felt for some reason that Mewtwo should be low priority for Brawl which got him cut on the end. In addition, despite the huge fan demand for Smash 4 (which again, Sakurai was aware of) Mewtwo was not made high priority enough to make it to the base roster of Smash 4.

While we can't say why he was low priority in Brawl, I think the fact that he was left out of it to begin might've factored into why he wasn't high priority for Smash 4. Sakurai was likely focused fires and foremost on Brawl's veterans and newcomers. When they started trying out for DLC, Mewtwo seemed to be their first pick. Again, I think that speaks volumes in it's own right. He might not have been part of the default roster, but he was picked over any other choice for the first DLC character. He was the first character since the game's initial release to join the roster.

Given all that, the fact he was already cut and only made it to Smash 4 as DLC means that his popularity won't help him since he was always popular. Whatever factor made him low priority hasn't changed.

We can't be certain that it hasn't or not for the next game yet. We can say this about a lot of things right now, but we just don't have enough information yet.

We won't know either way until we're told that Mewtwo is part of the base game again or has to wait for DLC yet again, whatever the reason may be.

Maybe. But I extremely doubt it. Heck, an argument can perhaps even possibly be made that Mewtwo might be low priority because of how profitable he is.

I will however admit that I'm kind of afraid he'll be stuck as DLC again because of that, forcing people to pay extra money for a beloved character to earn Nintendo some extra profit.

Still, we can only wait for the time being. There's nothing we can be certain of just yet.

 

[Cosmic77]

People didn't realize what they had until it was gone.

Yeah, Mewtwo's history isn't very pretty, but after seeing the massive fan demand that it took to get him back in the game, I'm convinced that he's not going anywhere. I can't imagine a scenario where Sakurai wouldn't prioritize Mewtwo enough to be in a Smash game after how vocal the fans have been. There's just too much demand for the character now, unlike Brawl when people always complained about how bad he was and completely took him for granted. It's no wonder Sakurai made him a lower priority back then.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

People didn't realize what they had until it was gone.

Yeah, Mewtwo's history isn't very pretty, but after seeing the massive fan demand that it took to get him back in the game, I'm convinced that he's not going anywhere. I can't imagine a scenario where Sakurai wouldn't prioritize Mewtwo enough to be in a Smash game after how vocal the fans have been. There's just too much demand for the character now, unlike Brawl when people always complained about how bad he was and completely took him for granted. It's no wonder Sakurai made him a lower priority back then.

A better way to look at it is this; is he high priority for GameFreak and the Pokemon Company? I could see the various others being higher priority at this point. That is, the Smash 4 options, plus maybe a Gen 7(or 8). I still think he's coming back too, hopefully base roster. But it's clearly not as simple as "Sakurai thinks the character should be high priority" at this point either.

Also, I think many are forgetting that Mewtwo was unable to be created easily for 4 due to Melee's data being too old. He wasn't finished in Brawl either. Makes us wonder if it was just entirely because Sonic was agreed to be in or if there's more to it than that.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Also, I think many are forgetting that Mewtwo was unable to be created easily for 4 due to Melee's data being too old. He wasn't finished in Brawl either. Makes us wonder if it was just entirely because Sonic was agreed to be in or if there's more to it than that.

You know, that is a VERY interesting point. I guess with Dr. Mario, it was easier for Sakurai to create from Melee to Smash 4 due to his clone feasibility status. Mewtwo being a unique character who has not been in the game for while could cause problems.

Can the same be said about Ice Climbers? Or not really since Sakurai already had working models for them back in the testing phase?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

You know, that is a VERY interesting point. I guess with Dr. Mario, it was easier for Sakurai to create from Melee to Smash 4 due to his clone feasibility status. Mewtwo being a unique character who has not been in the game for while could cause problems.

Can the same be said about Ice Climbers? Or not really since Sakurai already had working models for them back in the testing phase?

I wouldn't be surprised if the Ice Climbers only returned as DLC characters. In that case they better be thrice as powerful as they were in Brawl!

 

[Curious Villager]

In Snake's codec in Brawl it was kind of alluded that him being able to fight Mario was a "once in a lifetime chance". Considering that Sakurai never contacted Kojima during Smash 4's development and that the whole drama with Konami didn't really start until a year or two later. It could be that Sakurai didn't have any plans to bring back Snake when the roster was decided, at least for Smash 4. It was a favor for Kojima to please his son initially after all and may have been planned to be a one time deal back then.

 

[Pazzo.]

I think DLC is practically guarenteed for SSB5.

The problem is if the next game adds 12 or more, how much bigger can the roster get?