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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion
- Thread starter IntelliHeath1
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![C7aNt[1].jpg](https://smashboards.com/data/attachments/181/181983-c6c6e423a1592c0a41d735c21197efa5.jpg "C7aNt[1].jpg")
beans
Smash Lord
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Honestly, everytime I butted heads with Vergeben's claims during Ultimate, I always got ****ed.
Yeah no, cant beat em, join em.
Vergeben has been right so far and Vergeben himself never claimed the character.
Hitagi did, someone who Vergeben's acknowledged. Xeno did, someone who claims he is buddys with Verge.
Verge never did. He left that door open, the door of confirming Steve.
He has been cautious this entire run, if you follow most of his record, it was sad how smug and wrong he was.
If he gets wrong atleast one claim in Ultimate, his reputation would take even more blow.
He wouldnt say a thing if he wasnt completely sure of it. And if he has a certainti on it, then I'll join.
Yeah no, cant beat em, join em.
Vergeben has been right so far and Vergeben himself never claimed the character.
Hitagi did, someone who Vergeben's acknowledged. Xeno did, someone who claims he is buddys with Verge.
Verge never did. He left that door open, the door of confirming Steve.
He has been cautious this entire run, if you follow most of his record, it was sad how smug and wrong he was.
If he gets wrong atleast one claim in Ultimate, his reputation would take even more blow.
He wouldnt say a thing if he wasnt completely sure of it. And if he has a certainti on it, then I'll join.
D
Deleted member
Guest
There’s a link to the stream above. Guy playing the game
John Dylan Smith
Banned via Warnings
Please Heavenly father let them be wrong!
Almost NOBODY ASKED FOR STEVE TO BE INCLUDED IN THE GAME (HE WOULD BE A VILLAGER ECHO WHO'S MOVESET IS BEYOND CRAPPY)!
THE ONLY REASON PEOPLE ARE DEMANDING FOR HIM TO GET IN IS BECAUSE ONE SMALL LEAK DETAIL VERGE SAID (STEVE WOULD BE EVEN WORSE THAN STUPID PLANT)!
GIVE US BANJO AND KAZOOIE! SORA FROM KINGDOM HEARTS! RYU HAYABUSA FROM NINJA GAIDEN! ANOTHER FIGHTING GAME CHARACTER THAT COMES FROM TEKKEN/SOUL CALIBUR/MORTAL KOMBAT/FATAL FURY! NOT THIS WASTE OF INDIE SPACE!!!!!!
D
Deleted member
Guest
oof I've never seen that H2H then. That's pretty ****ty, especially since Tora is the strongest character in the game so he's always in my team. At least it's just a throwaway line and isn't shoved in your face then
CHILL WITH THE CAPS LOCK PLEASE
Last edited by a moderator:
Paperchampion23
Smash Champion
- Joined
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- 2,031
Or you know, just play some vs matches and see what rate characters unlock there.
Even classic mode and see the rewards there.
We still have no idea how to unlock characters beyond vague moments in WoL
Teeb147
Smash Legend
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And youre sure you saw multiple save slots? I was hoping there'd be.
TheCJBrine
Smash Legend
I'd love Banjo-Kazooie; however, I'd also love Steve, and no, he wouldn't be a Villager echo.
and Villager has a nice moveset :[
Shroob
Sup?
Weren't you infracted, or banned, I forgot, for being a huge annoyance?
Can you not POST IN ALL CAPS LIKE YOU'RE PRETENDING TO SHOUT?
It doesn't make us take you anymore seriously, it does the exact opposite.
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Okay guys, I figured I'd just put this into one relatively lengthy theory post. To cut straight to the point, I believe that there may be some very circumstantial evidence pointing toward Celica being a DLC character.
As I said, this is, of course, mostly circumstantial evidence. It could all just be a bunch of silly coincidences that happen to line up. But hey, what's the harm in speculation?
For this theory to stand, one major assumption does need to be made, and that is that having a spirit in the base game eliminates the chance of a character becoming DLC. Some may point out that Lucas and Mewtwo had trophies in Smash 4 but still became DLC, but a major difference is that trophies don't affect gameplay while spirits do. This, in my mind, makes them relatively incomparable.
This is further bolstered by the presence of Fighter Spirits, or spirits of playable characters. These spirits are not able to be equipped, and seem to be the equivalent of fighter trophies here.
However, it should be noted that Piranha Plant, a confirmed DLC character, does NOT have any spirits dedicated to itself. As well, some may point out that certain fighters have regular spirits based on themselves. These include a Mario Tennis Aces version of Luigi, Kaptain K. Rool, and the Wii Fit Trainer doing various yoga poses. However, these are considered variants separate from the fighter spirits. It's not listed as "Luigi," but as "Luigi (Mario Tennis Aces)." It's not "King K. Rool," it's "Kaptain K. Rool." It's not "Wii Fit Trainer," it's "Tree." It's not "Delivery," it's "DiGiorno."
In essence, this theory assumes that if a character's spirit is listed as it's normal name, and not a variant, the character is out of the running for DLC.
Now that we've established the ground rules of the theory, let's move onto the character in question: Celica.
For those unaware, Celica is one of the Fire Emblem franchise's main lords. She stars alongside Alm in the second game in the series, Fire Emblem Gaiden, as well as its remake, the fifteenth game, Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia. As of now, the latter is the most recently released mainline Fire Emblem title. She utilizes both offensive and support based magic, as well as swordplay, though she is far more adept at the former, and, save for Warriors where she was a last minute addition, she has always focused more on magic over swordplay.
Additionally, her magic is very unorthodox when compared to other mages in other games in the franchise. Gaiden and Shadows of Valentia didn't have its magic users cast through the use of tomes; the casting was done freehand. Instead, magic used its caster's own life force as its fuel. The stronger the spell, the stronger the toll it would take on the caster's health. This further accentuated the glass cannon status mages had in the series.
So, what points to Celica being DLC?
Simply put, there's a veritable dearth of Shadows of Valentia content in the game, which is odd for the most recent entry in the series. The game came out only five months after Pokémon Sun and Pokémon Moon, and a good amount of time before ARMS, Splatoon 2, and Xenoblade Chronicles 2, all of which have considerably more content in the game.
And it's not as though Fire Emblem itself was hurting for content in general. The franchise received a whopping new ten remixes, numerous spirits, and even a newcomer in the form of Chrom as an Echo Fighter. And yet, Gaiden and Shadows of Valentia received almost nothing.
The games received only two spirits, being an evolving spirit set: a joint spirit of Young Alm and Celica, and the evolved Alm and Celica joint spirit. In the music department, the games got the Brawl remix of With Mila's Divine Protection and the Smash 4 remix of the Gaiden Fight Theme, as well as four ported songs from Shadows of Valentia. These were March to Deliverance, Lord of a Dead Empire, The Scions' Dance in Purgatory, and Those Who Challenge Gods. Notably missing is the fan favorite final map theme, Twilight of the Gods.
But...the choice of music to port over is incredibly suspicious. March to Deliverance is Alm's first map theme, mirroring Celica's, With Mila's Divine Protection. Lord of a Dead Empire and The Scions' Dance in Purgatory are the fight themes for Emperor Rudolf and Berkut, respectively...two bosses on Alm's side. The final song, Those Who Challenge Gods, is the variant of the fight theme that plays in Acts V and VI, making them not tied to either Alm or Celica.
In other words, three of the four songs ported from Shadows of Valentia are specific to Alm's route, with the fourth song being neutral. None of the songs are tied to Celica specifically. The Shadows of Valentia version of With Mila's Divine Protection is absent, as well as another fan favorite song, The Sacrifice and the Saint (Celica's second map theme), both of which are integrally tied to Celica.
Why does this matter?
One big reason why this matters has to do with what each DLC pack contains. Each of the five packs of DLC in the Fighter Pass contains one character, one stage, and several songs. It's entirely possible that the "missing" songs are not present because they are tied to Celica's DLC pack. We could very easily get, say, a music pack that includes With Mila's Divine Protection, The Sacrifice and the Saint, and Twilight of the Gods, all fan-favorite songs, as well as maybe The Ark of Dawn and Unity to round it off to a nice five.
But what about the Alm & Celica spirit?
As stated above, this would be considered a variant spirit. There is an "Alm & Celica" joint spirit, but NOT a "Celica" spirit. If one assumes that spirits cannot become DLC, then Celica is still in the running.
Why would Nintendo, who is picking the DLC, pick Celica over someone from Three Houses?
There are two main reasons why a Three Houses character, like Edelgard, Byleth, Dimitri, or Claude, may be skipped over. The first of which is that, like with Rex in Xenoblade Chronicles 2, a Three Houses character may, in fact, be too new to make the cut. If a late 2017 release got a mere consolation prize, then it's possible that a game that won't release until spring of 2019 may also be far too late.
The second reason is one of popularity. Putting in a character from an unreleased game could be considered a gamble. There is no guarantee that the game or character will be well received. And with something like DLC, which needs to stand and sell on its own, it's better to go for something with proven popularity.
...And Celica is INCREDIBLY popular. According to the second Choose Your Legends poll held for Fire Emblem Heroes, in which players could vote for their favorite characters so they could get special alternate variants in the game, Celica received an astounding 36,302 votes. This put her first in the Women's Division, and second over all, only behind Hector by about 2,000 votes. While Ike, Lucina, Lyn, and Roy were excluded from the second poll due to winning the first poll, Celica managed to out-score Marth, Chrom, Robin, and Corrin, all of whom are in Smash already. She also received nearly double the amount of votes that her costar, Alm, did.
This was likely not due to Recency Bias, either, as Alm and Celica were the exceptions, and not the rule. Most other Shadows of Valentia characters scored comparatively lower, as the poll was conducted more than half a year after the game released. The poll was also held in January of 2018, long before Ultimate was even announced, for reference. Celica also has three versions of herself playable in Heroes: the normal version, her Choose Your Legends fan-voted variant, and a Fallen Heroes variant. Comparatively, Alm only has his normal version playable, and no other Shadows of Valentia-based character has an alternate version. As a gacha game, the developers know that popularity sells, so Celica having additional variants is proof of her popularity.
And most notably of all, this wouldn't be the first time Celica was added to a crossover roster by Nintendo's request. During an interview focused on Fire Emblem Warriors, the developers specifically stated that certain characters were added late into development at the request of both Intelligent Systems and Nintendo themselves. In a later interview, it was revealed that Celica was a last-minute addition, which is seen by her utilizing Marth's moveset with magical special attacks and how she has no story presence in the game, as well as a few unpolished animation quirks.
By connecting the dots, we can see that Nintendo specifically requested that Celica be added to Fire Emblem Warriors. Seeing as Nintendo is also picking the DLC characters, and that Ultimate has, thus far, been seemingly avoiding things relating to Celica and Shadows of Valentia in general, this is a point in her favor.
So in review, Celica:
Is a proven popular character
Is not disconfirmed by the Spirits DLC theory
Has been added to a game at Nintendo's request in the past
Is from a game that has little content in Ultimate, especially in the music department, and even more so in music related to her specifically
Add onto all of these that Shadows of Valentia has numerous locales that can be used as stages, such as Duma Tower, the Temple of Mila, the Zofian Seaway, Grieth's Citadel, Ram Village, the Sluice Gate, the Swamps of Duma, Fear Mountain, the Altar of Duma, and Zofia Castle, and I think Celica is a prime candidate for DLC.
As stated above, all of this is based on, admittedly, circumstantial evidence. Celica is far from a lock for DLC, but at the very least, I believe she is a strong option, even with my obvious biases aside. I do think she's a character people are heavily sleeping on.
And hey, if all of this is just a series of coincidences, that's fine. Speculation is all in good fun, after all.
Thoughts?
As I said, this is, of course, mostly circumstantial evidence. It could all just be a bunch of silly coincidences that happen to line up. But hey, what's the harm in speculation?
For this theory to stand, one major assumption does need to be made, and that is that having a spirit in the base game eliminates the chance of a character becoming DLC. Some may point out that Lucas and Mewtwo had trophies in Smash 4 but still became DLC, but a major difference is that trophies don't affect gameplay while spirits do. This, in my mind, makes them relatively incomparable.
This is further bolstered by the presence of Fighter Spirits, or spirits of playable characters. These spirits are not able to be equipped, and seem to be the equivalent of fighter trophies here.
However, it should be noted that Piranha Plant, a confirmed DLC character, does NOT have any spirits dedicated to itself. As well, some may point out that certain fighters have regular spirits based on themselves. These include a Mario Tennis Aces version of Luigi, Kaptain K. Rool, and the Wii Fit Trainer doing various yoga poses. However, these are considered variants separate from the fighter spirits. It's not listed as "Luigi," but as "Luigi (Mario Tennis Aces)." It's not "King K. Rool," it's "Kaptain K. Rool." It's not "Wii Fit Trainer," it's "Tree." It's not "Delivery," it's "DiGiorno."
In essence, this theory assumes that if a character's spirit is listed as it's normal name, and not a variant, the character is out of the running for DLC.
Now that we've established the ground rules of the theory, let's move onto the character in question: Celica.
For those unaware, Celica is one of the Fire Emblem franchise's main lords. She stars alongside Alm in the second game in the series, Fire Emblem Gaiden, as well as its remake, the fifteenth game, Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia. As of now, the latter is the most recently released mainline Fire Emblem title. She utilizes both offensive and support based magic, as well as swordplay, though she is far more adept at the former, and, save for Warriors where she was a last minute addition, she has always focused more on magic over swordplay.
Additionally, her magic is very unorthodox when compared to other mages in other games in the franchise. Gaiden and Shadows of Valentia didn't have its magic users cast through the use of tomes; the casting was done freehand. Instead, magic used its caster's own life force as its fuel. The stronger the spell, the stronger the toll it would take on the caster's health. This further accentuated the glass cannon status mages had in the series.
So, what points to Celica being DLC?
Simply put, there's a veritable dearth of Shadows of Valentia content in the game, which is odd for the most recent entry in the series. The game came out only five months after Pokémon Sun and Pokémon Moon, and a good amount of time before ARMS, Splatoon 2, and Xenoblade Chronicles 2, all of which have considerably more content in the game.
And it's not as though Fire Emblem itself was hurting for content in general. The franchise received a whopping new ten remixes, numerous spirits, and even a newcomer in the form of Chrom as an Echo Fighter. And yet, Gaiden and Shadows of Valentia received almost nothing.
The games received only two spirits, being an evolving spirit set: a joint spirit of Young Alm and Celica, and the evolved Alm and Celica joint spirit. In the music department, the games got the Brawl remix of With Mila's Divine Protection and the Smash 4 remix of the Gaiden Fight Theme, as well as four ported songs from Shadows of Valentia. These were March to Deliverance, Lord of a Dead Empire, The Scions' Dance in Purgatory, and Those Who Challenge Gods. Notably missing is the fan favorite final map theme, Twilight of the Gods.
But...the choice of music to port over is incredibly suspicious. March to Deliverance is Alm's first map theme, mirroring Celica's, With Mila's Divine Protection. Lord of a Dead Empire and The Scions' Dance in Purgatory are the fight themes for Emperor Rudolf and Berkut, respectively...two bosses on Alm's side. The final song, Those Who Challenge Gods, is the variant of the fight theme that plays in Acts V and VI, making them not tied to either Alm or Celica.
In other words, three of the four songs ported from Shadows of Valentia are specific to Alm's route, with the fourth song being neutral. None of the songs are tied to Celica specifically. The Shadows of Valentia version of With Mila's Divine Protection is absent, as well as another fan favorite song, The Sacrifice and the Saint (Celica's second map theme), both of which are integrally tied to Celica.
Why does this matter?
One big reason why this matters has to do with what each DLC pack contains. Each of the five packs of DLC in the Fighter Pass contains one character, one stage, and several songs. It's entirely possible that the "missing" songs are not present because they are tied to Celica's DLC pack. We could very easily get, say, a music pack that includes With Mila's Divine Protection, The Sacrifice and the Saint, and Twilight of the Gods, all fan-favorite songs, as well as maybe The Ark of Dawn and Unity to round it off to a nice five.
But what about the Alm & Celica spirit?
As stated above, this would be considered a variant spirit. There is an "Alm & Celica" joint spirit, but NOT a "Celica" spirit. If one assumes that spirits cannot become DLC, then Celica is still in the running.
Why would Nintendo, who is picking the DLC, pick Celica over someone from Three Houses?
There are two main reasons why a Three Houses character, like Edelgard, Byleth, Dimitri, or Claude, may be skipped over. The first of which is that, like with Rex in Xenoblade Chronicles 2, a Three Houses character may, in fact, be too new to make the cut. If a late 2017 release got a mere consolation prize, then it's possible that a game that won't release until spring of 2019 may also be far too late.
The second reason is one of popularity. Putting in a character from an unreleased game could be considered a gamble. There is no guarantee that the game or character will be well received. And with something like DLC, which needs to stand and sell on its own, it's better to go for something with proven popularity.
...And Celica is INCREDIBLY popular. According to the second Choose Your Legends poll held for Fire Emblem Heroes, in which players could vote for their favorite characters so they could get special alternate variants in the game, Celica received an astounding 36,302 votes. This put her first in the Women's Division, and second over all, only behind Hector by about 2,000 votes. While Ike, Lucina, Lyn, and Roy were excluded from the second poll due to winning the first poll, Celica managed to out-score Marth, Chrom, Robin, and Corrin, all of whom are in Smash already. She also received nearly double the amount of votes that her costar, Alm, did.
This was likely not due to Recency Bias, either, as Alm and Celica were the exceptions, and not the rule. Most other Shadows of Valentia characters scored comparatively lower, as the poll was conducted more than half a year after the game released. The poll was also held in January of 2018, long before Ultimate was even announced, for reference. Celica also has three versions of herself playable in Heroes: the normal version, her Choose Your Legends fan-voted variant, and a Fallen Heroes variant. Comparatively, Alm only has his normal version playable, and no other Shadows of Valentia-based character has an alternate version. As a gacha game, the developers know that popularity sells, so Celica having additional variants is proof of her popularity.
And most notably of all, this wouldn't be the first time Celica was added to a crossover roster by Nintendo's request. During an interview focused on Fire Emblem Warriors, the developers specifically stated that certain characters were added late into development at the request of both Intelligent Systems and Nintendo themselves. In a later interview, it was revealed that Celica was a last-minute addition, which is seen by her utilizing Marth's moveset with magical special attacks and how she has no story presence in the game, as well as a few unpolished animation quirks.
By connecting the dots, we can see that Nintendo specifically requested that Celica be added to Fire Emblem Warriors. Seeing as Nintendo is also picking the DLC characters, and that Ultimate has, thus far, been seemingly avoiding things relating to Celica and Shadows of Valentia in general, this is a point in her favor.
So in review, Celica:
Is a proven popular character
Is not disconfirmed by the Spirits DLC theory
Has been added to a game at Nintendo's request in the past
Is from a game that has little content in Ultimate, especially in the music department, and even more so in music related to her specifically
Add onto all of these that Shadows of Valentia has numerous locales that can be used as stages, such as Duma Tower, the Temple of Mila, the Zofian Seaway, Grieth's Citadel, Ram Village, the Sluice Gate, the Swamps of Duma, Fear Mountain, the Altar of Duma, and Zofia Castle, and I think Celica is a prime candidate for DLC.
As stated above, all of this is based on, admittedly, circumstantial evidence. Celica is far from a lock for DLC, but at the very least, I believe she is a strong option, even with my obvious biases aside. I do think she's a character people are heavily sleeping on.
And hey, if all of this is just a series of coincidences, that's fine. Speculation is all in good fun, after all.
Thoughts?
D
Deleted member
Guest
Yep. Three slots
JacobLeBeauOFFICIAL
Smash Lord
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Chill out there, mate. When I have to be the one who tells people to chill out, then you know you need to chill out.
Also, I seen people want Steve in. They exist, they're in the minority.
BlondeLombax
Smash Master
Off topic, but who's Katalina? Is she from Dragalia Lost? I would expect either the dude or the girl on the promo art to be reps (though the girl is probably her, I haven't played the game yet).
John Dylan Smith
Banned via Warnings
I was mainly banned for spamming, thank you!
Teeb147
Smash Legend
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That's great.
Now I'm wondering how spirits work tho. I wonder if the slots have different spirits or if it's the shared across the whole game.
Dyllybirdy
Smash Hero
She's from Granblue Fantasy.
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Cutie Gwen
Lovely warrior
Oh I think you missed the part I said we don't see it, Poppi merely talks about it which raises some eyebrows and makes I believe Pyra and Baguette stare at False Nopon, with Brittany wondering about his views on women, Sorry I wasn't clear enough
D
Deleted member
Guest
then stop spamming lmao
The DanMan051
Banned via Warnings
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He's also 13/14 himself, for what it's worth.
lightdrago
Smash Ace
I believe your caps lock button is broken.
JacobLeBeauOFFICIAL
Smash Lord
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Were you here yesterday? If not, datamining has been happening and leaks
TaichiYaegashi
Smash Ace
I apologize for what I linked previously talking about DLC characters being leaked as it didn't amount to anything. I was thinking it most likely wouldn't anyway though so I should have knew better.
Anywho! Is there a confirmed list of all bosses found in the game? If there is...is Vergeben trying to some reason drive his reputation back into the bottom of the trash?
Anywho! Is there a confirmed list of all bosses found in the game? If there is...is Vergeben trying to some reason drive his reputation back into the bottom of the trash?
NintendoKnight
Smash Lord
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Holy crap guys, the dude streaming the game just dumped the data for it in his stream.
Ramen Tengoku
Meiniac
So... If we're going by that logic...
Banjo Kazooie would be a Duck Hunt Echo
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D
Deleted member
Guest
That IS true, I guess it's not weird for a 13/14 year old to like what appears to be a 12 year old looking robot...
doesnt make tora any less annoying tho
John Dylan Smith
Banned via Warnings
User was warned for this post; trolling(and drug references)
Why in the heck do people want Steve so badly (Is it same individuals who are on drugs who thought that moronic/waste of space plant was an awesome idea)!?
Please? Just give me a reason to why we should all go out of our to a spend a junk ton of dollars on this guys if he get's confirmed?
segillav
Smash Apprentice
The person who is streaming the game currently unlocked
I don't know if who you unlock is randomized.
Ness after finishing Classic Mode with Kirby.
The DanMan051
Banned via Warnings
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Shroob
Sup?
No one's holding a gun to your head to buy it.
kirbsmash
Smash Champion
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Sarcasm. Yes. I has been here, What I meant to ask for are there any more data mining?
D
Deleted member
Guest
Banjo is a Steve alt.
Guh-Huzzah!
Totally humorous voice over and YouTube guy.
The fella running the stream posted a link in chat to a download. It's taking quite a while...Maybe it's Ultimate's files?
(Probs shifty crap, but hey, I'll check it out...)
(Probs shifty crap, but hey, I'll check it out...)
RyuhoFox
Smash Lord
I would assume they would be shared since you use them outside the adventure mode too tmk
Idon
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You ever wonder why it's called an antidote when there's no dote to begin with?
o-oh, you meant on Celica. Uhh, yeah, she's got a fair shot.
Shroob
Sup?
Also, Marx makes me go EWWWWWWWWWWW really hard. I dunno what it is, but seeing him inflate his own eyes, only for multiple eyes to split off from his original eye and giving him massive, bug-like human eyes is a huge.........**** this makes my skin crawl.
D
Deleted member
Guest
YOU don't have to spend any money on him if you don't want to
but just to humor an obvious troll, Steve comes from Minecraft, which is literally the second best selling video game franchise of all time. i personally don't care about him, but he 100% "deserves" to be in. Granted, "deserves" is a ****ty way to describe Smash characters and whether or not they should be in, but you really can't diss Steve and then say Isaac, Geno, or Banjo "deserve" to be in more then Steve. Steve is a ****ing icon
Guh-Huzzah!
Totally humorous voice over and YouTube guy.
Because he could have a fun and interesting moveset using the items in Minecraft, and it's freaking Smash, we trust Sakurai to make him fun.
Pyra
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you should be banned again
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