Smash UK Discussion Thread - Check first post for tournaments, facebook info and videos!

[gm jack]

Same. It sounds like it shouldn't make much of a difference, but then you realise that the timings isn't that hard, but getting the trigger down in a single frame can be a pain.

As for Fox/Falco, they're pretty much the same. Fox gets off harder on the characters below them, but falco may have the edge in the fox vs falco match up.

Though falcos shine is far more gay. You can try and SDI out of shine combos etc, but falco's has so much stun all you can do is DI so that they can't keep up or you're off stage 60% later or so.

 

[jjlinyard]

How is there any debate about the shines?? Fox > Falco. Imagine if they gave falco fox's shine.

 

[Heartstring]

ew, falco with waveshining across the stage, i dont like the sound of that
or falco with shine edgguarding either for that matter
but imagine the kill setups fox would have with falco's shine

 

[VA]

Unreal, do you and adam want to come to brighton soon?

 

[Fuzzyness]

look who im teaming with at genesis 2

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=304401

 

[smakis]

I'm not too big of a fan of the "hold-trigger-while-plugging-in-your-controller" trick, dunno why x)

also falco ftw... ; )

 

[Unreal91]

Unreal, do you and adam want to come to brighton soon?

Yeah im definitely up for that, how soon are we talking?

 

[gm jack]

How is there any debate about the shines?? Fox > Falco. Imagine if they gave falco fox's shine.

I think he'd be a far worse character. Falco's combo game relies upon being able to hit people up and down a stupid amount. He doesn't have fox's speed to chase people everywhere from the slide or forced tech off fox's shine.

 

[Fuzzyness]

Yeah im definitely up for that, how soon are we talking?

same here

and if you dont mind robby can I practise teams with swizzy a lot if he's coming? obvious reasons why

 

[Unreal91]

Btw robby, will it be on a weekend? becuase that'll be way easier for me.

If swizzy comes ill make my way with him considering how close he lives to me now, and any idea how much a return to Brighton is on the train?

 

[Jolteon]

fox's shine is without a doubt better vs waveshineable characters (guaranteed combo setups AND gimps), but falco's shine gives him guaranteed combo set-ups from ZERO % vs basically every character in the game (shine waveland is stupid good), fox does have thunder's but that's SDI'able so he has to work a lot harder to combo characters that can tech his shine. then again, fox's shine has easy mode edgeguards and his tech chasing is really impressive.

I dunno, both are really good lol. Fox's shine is 100% better in teams though, no debate about that. Quick edgeguards are vital.

 

[Unreal91]

Charles, you normally pre-book tickets right?

When you book for Brighton if you come can you get me one and ill pay you back? would be much appreciated.

Also, how was the kebab? =)

 

[Alpha Dash]

Cba to read the last couple of pages and catch up.
Was a good *** fest needs to be done again!
I haven't switched main, I just wanted to test my secondary for this lil fest but at least with this little praise I will be confident to use Falco in tournament. But you know we'll see what happens.
Also Dujuan better start learning the Marth match up with ice climbers quick cos next time **** it I refuse to lose due to inconsistent tech skill with fox!

I'm going to destroy you!

 

[VA]

Btw robby, will it be on a weekend? becuase that'll be way easier for me.

If swizzy comes ill make my way with him considering how close he lives to me now, and any idea how much a return to Brighton is on the train?

yeah I suppose I can do it at the weekend, maybe swizzy will come too but I don't know the details yet. I've just finished uni and am too lazy to think at the moment.

 

[Fuzzyness]

yeah no problem unreal

can I come round tomorrow night? :D I might be drinking a little bit cause its my last hand in lol. Im totally up for loads of smash

also

http://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/irn-bru-six-three-free-packs-for-1-50-asda/948275?page=2

9 cans for £1.50, 16p a can of irn bru

 

[rustediron]

look who im teaming with at genesis 2

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=304401

I totally pointed that out liek 2 pages ago biatch

 

[j3ly]

Good luck with that, along with becoming 'second best in UK this summer with fox'. Just hope you can back your chat or it could be embarrassing.

It is kinda interesting that there seems to be a strong pro-fox bias in the UK compared to falco, in principle at least.

silence, you who has been playing twice as long as me yet probably wont ever take a single game off me with any of my characters. enjoy never catching up with any of tesco crew's falcos, especially mine, despite me not maining him anymore.

falco would't be good with foxes shine
fox is a much better character
falco's worst matchup is fox. falco can combo fox, but fox can control falco for an entire stock, 0-death, with 100% consistency from a single shine on any part of the stage. nobody in the uk is really good enough to do it 100% of the time, but it's there. even crabman etc show momentary glimpses of realizing fox can near always follow up. sometimes you need to deliberately sacrifice a chance to follow up, and instead watch where they tech.
also, whether or not they stand/fall from a shine doesn't make a huge difference. GF people who still haven't realized they can cover every option by cornering an opponent laying close to the edge on the floor. It's important, a chance to do it comes several times every game.

learn it.

so much noobery on the last 2 pages. falco.

 

[Jolteon]

yeah falco doesn't have the speed to properly utilise fox's shine :[

 

[gm jack]

But on the same point, fox doesn't have to move set to properly abuse falco's shine.

 

[Unreal91]

It would be even more gay because fox could constantly do shine uair lol

 

[Alpha Dash]

think how easy a gimp could be if falco had foxs shine though. the only time it would be useful however would be to shine off edge to Dair especially if it were ntsc

 

[jjlinyard]

I wouldn't say much better if he is better. Yes fox can control the match up for a entire stock but same can be said for falco.

 

[Unreal91]

Very true JJ, momentum is so back and forth in high level smash regardless of the matchups

 

[Heartstring]

so you guys say that fox and falco would not have good shines shoud they have been switched
but i reckon that if fox and falco had each others shines, the metagame would have developed in a different direction utilizing the shines in a different fashio,n because the whole shine cancelling thing is still so very good

 

[Jolteon]

no i reckon they would genuinely suck a lot more for obvious reasons

 

[Fuzzyness]

falcos up tilt <3

 

[L-J]

silence, you who has been playing twice as long as me yet probably wont ever take a single game off me with any of my characters. enjoy never catching up with any of tesco crew's falcos, especially mine, despite me not maining him anymore.

falco would't be good with foxes shine
fox is a much better character
falco's worst matchup is fox. falco can combo fox, but fox can control falco for an entire stock, 0-death, with 100% consistency from a single shine on any part of the stage. nobody in the uk is really good enough to do it 100% of the time, but it's there. even crabman etc show momentary glimpses of realizing fox can near always follow up. sometimes you need to deliberately sacrifice a chance to follow up, and instead watch where they tech.
also, whether or not they stand/fall from a shine doesn't make a huge difference. GF people who still haven't realized they can cover every option by cornering an opponent laying close to the edge on the floor. It's important, a chance to do it comes several times every game.

learn it.

so much noobery on the last 2 pages. falco.

Lol doesn't even cover this. Rofl maybe? The only tournament set I played against you was 2-1. You clearly have a short memory. And the only other member of Tesco Crew I've lost to in tournament ever was King's link, playing worse than I've done in any other tournament for 4 years. And yes I've played over a longer timespan, but I guarantee you've played more and against better competition in yours which is what matters. You are currently better than me, well done.

As for the fox vs falco debate I was of course being SUPER SERIAL *in that South Park Al Gore voice* in everything I said. And now this thread has turned into a serious discussion on the matter, as if that's never been done before olololo. I will myself be serious for a moment.

Fox is of course a better character in super theory bros and very few deny that. Where all this shine swapping business came from I have no idea but I can't think of a much more pointless debate.

All I will say is no fox main has ever been dominant in Melee in Europe or USA. If he's clearly better than every other character at that very highest level, once he's been 'mastered' as it were (as if anyone can ever 'master' fox), is this just coincidence? Over a lifespan of 10 years no-one has been able to become the best player with the apparently clearly best character. It could be coincidence. But I don't believe so, because theory and application are not the same things. And when I talk about the 'best' character, I will take what matters over what doesn't. Theory does not matter. Application does matter. That is my opinion and now I am returning to revision (ffs).

 

[Global Gaming]

In case anyone is interested, I am having a monthly/tournament at my house in Leicester on June 18th, I am hoping some of you Londoners will be interested in attending this.

Here is a link to the thread; http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=304379

Cheers guys

- Willz

 

[gm jack]

Rich, didn't you lose to deathdazer at sny?

 

[rustediron]

But theory is subject neutral, whereas application implies that there is someone doing the applying

Willz - **** going all the way to Leicester to play some players in a region represented by some piece o' **** falcon that can't even get his techchases consistently lol

EDIT: I take that back actually, Yeniths is pretty legit

 

[Global Gaming]

I don't care about the game bro, I've played Melee 3 or 4 times since my last London monthly in September. I'm hosting for the community

You can hate on my melee skill idc, although Yeniths has never beaten me in tourney and anyone at the Birmingham monthly in January knew what I did to George was just, ****.

 

[L-J]

God yeah I forgot about Deathgazer - where's he at recently? Haven't seen him on the boards or at a tourney for a while.

Hugo yes that is true. However the game has had such a long lifespan by now that I feel basing judgements off the play and results of the best players throughout that span leads to sounder judgements than theory. Potential of a character is very important in such discussions and the tier list, but I hate everyone harping on all the time about how Fox is 'clearly the best' and spouting rubbish like 'every 1 frame shine can be followed up by **** and he's super fast and has a gun so who stands a chance' to back it up. If it were that simple a Fox player WOULD have dominated at some point over the last ten years, and should certainly be dominating now with the metagame at it's most advanced which should favour such a deep and technically difficult character.

FYI I do think Fox deserves no. 1 in the singles tier list and edges Falco in a few key match ups BUT paradoxically I also believe Falco may be the best singles character in the game when it comes to application in the current metagame and at the highest level. And no that's not because of Dr PP, I have thought it for some time, in fact while Hungrybox was dominating with Puff. It's also not why I switched to Falco - that was because I felt my Fox had stagnated and I personally had more potential with Falco, which I think is starting to come to fruition given my playstyle.

Does anyone want to take my exams for me? Hugo I'll give you a crash course in Latin and Ancient Greek and twenty quid. Go on. You know you want to.

Edit - Willz start caring about Melee again man. It's worth caring about! I want to play you sometime soon and have some good games anyhow. And Hugo is a permanent troll in these boards so don't take anything he says seriously lol.

 

[VA]

Adrian is in Hong Kong I think.

 

[Unreal91]

Yeah he's in hong kong lol. Good games today Charles apart from the sluggish ones at the end

 

[Yeniths]

I don't care about the game bro, I've played Melee 3 or 4 times since my last London monthly in September. I'm hosting for the community

You can hate on my melee skill idc, although Yeniths has never beaten me in tourney and anyone at the Birmingham monthly in January knew what I did to George was just, ****.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U4RmOhKZhY

4:05....Niiiiiice 4 stock.

 

[Global Gaming]

obvious sandbag

now come my monthly on the 18th june and beat me scrub

 

[rustediron]

Hugo yes that is true. However the game has had such a long lifespan by now that I feel basing judgements off the play and results of the best players throughout that span leads to sounder judgements than theory. Potential of a character is very important in such discussions and the tier list, but I hate everyone harping on all the time about how Fox is 'clearly the best' and spouting rubbish like 'every 1 frame shine can be followed up by **** and he's super fast and has a gun so who stands a chance' to back it up. If it were that simple a Fox player WOULD have dominated at some point over the last ten years, and should certainly be dominating now with the metagame at it's most advanced which should favour such a deep and technically difficult character.

I actually mostly agree with you; I feel the subject neutrality of theory is precisely what makes it almost irrelevant, as for any particular case where a character is being used, there will be someone using that character. An account of how 'good' a character is which simply ignores this fact seems to me to be incomplete.

The best way to consider it is, then, like you said, to specify some level of play; then you can generate a hypothetical player with generalised attributes taken from a sample of players at that level, and meaningfully talk about what a hypothetical match at that level would be like.

Also you're not allowed to believe contradictions lol, DESIST
Unless you mean something like Fox deserves no. 1 because of the wide range of levels of play where he does have an edge over Falco?

Does anyone want to take my exams for me? Hugo I'll give you a crash course in Latin and Ancient Greek and twenty quid. Go on. You know you want to.

I'm getting ****ing ***** by my own exams lol, definitely don't need more

 

[VA]

I actually mostly agree with you; I feel the subject neutrality of theory is precisely what makes it almost irrelevant, as for any particular case where a character is being used, there will be someone using that character. An account of how 'good' a character is which simply ignores this fact seems to me to be incomplete.

The best way to consider it is, then, like you said, to specify some level of play; then you can generate a hypothetical player with generalised attributes taken from a sample of players at that level, and meaningfully talk about what a hypothetical match at that level would be like.

Also you're not allowed to believe contradictions lol, DESIST
Unless you mean something like Fox deserves no. 1 because of the wide range of levels of play where he does have an edge over Falco?

I'm getting ****ing ***** by my own exams lol, definitely don't need more

How many commas do you need to use? You write the most complicated sentences evar.

Also basing the potential of a character on tournament results is lame. It's what led many idiots into saying jigglypuff is the best character in the game, clearly she is not. Why do people complain about rest when fox has SHINE? Which happens to be without a doubt the best move in the game.

Oh and lasers which are also pretty good.

Also did you ever see that tier list that Ankoku put together which was based on tournament placing? Fox was still number one due to the high presence of fox mains in later stages of large tournaments. I think jigglypuff was second.

 

[Jolteon]

In retrospect, 10 years is really not that long of a lifespan.

 

[Unreal91]

http://uk.wii.ign.com/articles/117/1171214p1.html

Has anyone seen this?

"A curious thing has happened to Smash Bros. over the past 10 or so years. Despite having a very, very strong tendency towards a party-like atmosphere and more casual gameplay, a group of very dedicated fans has shifted toward a very hardcore style of playing."

But tbh i just wanna see the next console bring on june 7-9.