Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[Sasha]

According to PMD (which we're now accepting as "outer-canon," like the Paper Mario Series), Pokemon can use TM's on themselves. Seeing how Mewtwo existed during Generation I, he could very easily have used the TM on himself at that time, while using other, not-as-of-yet-made TM's, in future generations.

 

[missingnomaster]

I don't have any counter argument right now, so ok.

But how is Mewtwo suppose to follow Bowser with teleport if Bowser is constantly moving? I don't think teleporting on top of Bowser would be a very good idea.

 

[REL38]

Teleport takes you to a set destination.
ie. Pokemon Center, out of battle.

It doesn't take you in the middle of the sky.

Don't suggest teleporting on top of Bowser's head because that's just screwing Mewtwo over and probably isn't even possible anyways.

 

[Sasha]

But how is Mewtwo suppose to follow Bowser with teleport if Bowser is constantly moving? I don't think teleporting on top of Bowser would be a very good idea.

Hmm. I suppose that depends on how fast the Clown Car can move.

Slow = M2 can use an attack after he Teleports close to Bowser.
Fast = M2 has to keep Teleporting to keep up with Bowser. Assuming the Clown Car has enough fuel to keep moving away from M2 (and I see no reason why it shouldn't, unless someone knows something that I don't), Bowser wins after M2 runs out of PP for Teleport. Or someone could throw in the whole "precognitive" argument by saying that M2 can predict where Bowser will go. Or Maybe Mewtwo can warp to the side of the Clown Car and grab on?

This Match-Up hurts my head. Can we just call it a draw and move on?

--

Also, there was an argument a bit ago about M2's AI.

A couple people were saying that M2's "wild" AI makes him use random moves. Well, Bowser's "stupid boss" AI makes him attack fairly haphazardly and not altogether intelligently, making even Mario (who in most cases can only Jump, Punch, Spin, and throw stuff) capable of beating him handily. I say let's throw out the whole AI concept and make these people sentient enough to know when to use which move.

EDIT:
@REL38: Please credit me with a little intelligence before you post. Also, go back and read the OP for rules on characters with the ability to teleport/escape/warp/etc...

 

[REL38]

@Sasha

Just trying to prevent.
You don't know some of the rediculous stuff people suggest sometimes >__>

What I was getting at was Mewtwo's teleport will be limited to the ground.
Mewtwo can try to teleport near Bowser while he flies upward, out of range, but that gives Bowser the time to use an item to damage Mewtwo.

So Mewtwo would need to either:

a. Use Embargo, right off the bat, but risk Bowser flying too high for attack.

b. Teleport near Bowser to prevent his ascent, but risk being hit by an item.


The Koopa Clown Car is rather fast for what it is.
It can get him high into the sky in mere seconds.

 

[Sasha]

@Sasha

Just trying to prevent.
You don't know some of the rediculous stuff people suggest sometimes >__>

What I was getting at was Mewtwo's teleport will be limited to the ground.
Mewtwo can try to teleport near Bowser while he flies upward, out of range, but that gives Bowser the time to use an item to damage Mewtwo.

So Mewtwo would need to either:

a. Use Embargo, right off the bat, but risk Bowser flying too high for attack.

b. Teleport near Bowser to prevent his ascent, but risk being hit by an item.


The Koopa Clown Car is rather fast for what it is.
It can get him high into the sky in mere seconds.

The words "rather," "high," and "mere" are far too subjective for my taste.

Also, why exactly can M2 only Teleport to the ground?

EDIT: I'm off to sleep.
@Raizen: I think that if PT is allowed to have at least one Pokemon out at the beginning of the match, he can easily win. He's done for if not. Clarification would be nice.

G'night.

EDIT 2: He's Pokemon Trainer, not Red. Unless the rules are stating otherwise, he could be any Pokemon Trainer from any generation with any pokemon, yes?

 

[REL38]

@Sasha

I'll post a vid of its speed tomorrow (technically later today).

Mewtwo only teleports on the ground because:

1. It's shown as such in-game

2. Mewtwo only hovers above the ground. That doesn't mean he floats 100ft in the air if that's what you're suggesting.

Also, Pokemon Trainer is Red due to them looking exactly the same.

 

[Samochan]

So then why is he hit in the game? Because LEVITATE is not his ability. And as such, he gets hit by Earthquake. Also, he's not levitating in the more recent games. Aren't the more recent Stadium-like games retcons of PS1?

Mewtwo never showed levitation in the actual Pokemon Stadium fights. I'm speaking of his intro screen where he is definitely seen floathing on empty sky. On pokemon Mystery Dungeon, he floats down from the top of his dungeon cave very quickly, but he's able to fully control his descend speed.

Also, just because one game features something and another doesn't mean that one ability is now bogus. Many characters (or basically everyone) here are allowed abilities that do not happen on any other game besides one maybe.

Prove he is. He uses random moves when you fight in PMD1-2 when he's supposed to be sentient and intelligent, and he does the same in every game you fight him in. Now, trainers are supposed to be smart, right? It would've been an easy task to give Mewtwo a trainer AI, which would demonstrate his intelligence. But he isn't smart. I'm only using AIs as a way to demonstrate intelligence in-game, as Trainers are smarter than Wild Pokemon, since they don't use random moves.

I'm sorry to say, but did you think this argument through even before you came here and typed it out?

By this notion, it means every character not player controller is only capable of AI controlled patterns or movements, even if they are known to be sentinent beings. This means Ganondorf, Zelda... yea.

Just because a player cannot control a character doesn't mean they are now restricted to AI. AI doesn't exist on this conversation.

Moving on...

Interesting that it fails on Protect and Detect if used on the same turn. It also activates after three-turns... Mewtwo's only means of attack is a slow move that can fail. That's pretty bad.

It means if protect and detect is used on the exact same turn future sight is used, future sight is then protected against. It will not help if you only later use those moves when future sight is going to hit.

I still think Mewtwo shouldn't get TMs. Seriously... >_>
Bowser might try to attack first. If he attacks while Mewtwo Embargo's, Mewtwo will get hit for heavy damage and be hardpressed to keep up. I see most of Bowser's moves being an OHKO or a 2HKO, since he resembles Groudon who can teabag Mewtwo anyway.

What is allowed is allowed. I did go through many arguments to allowe Mewtwo even a modicum of of his max potential to be used...

But hey, Groudon is a pokemon that shapes entire continents, Tyranitar basically topples mountains with bare fists alone and Gyarados destroyes cities. Yet none of these is capable of OHKO'ing mewtwo. Bowser doesn't even come close to groudon's size anyway.

--

As proved on pokemon PMD, Mewtwo is able to float on free will and very quickly too with precision, thus meaning Bowser is hard pressed to escape using Clown car. And as someone wisely pointed out, Mewtwo is also capable of Teleporting on Generation 1 and only unable to learn it on further games because that TM doesn't exist anymore. But simply being able to float very fast is enough to keep up with Bowser.

Also on Clown car, Bowser is unable to use any physical attacks on Mewtwo, sadly making him a lot more restricted he was on ground. He can neither use teleport whe using Clown car.

As it appears, Clown car actually HINDERS Bowser and doesn't even benefit him any, cause he cannot outrange mewtwo by flying alone.

--

I will get to Mewtwo's other possible movesets when I get back from my dad's bday party. Being up till 6 am is not fun though. >_>

 

[Diddy Kong]

Okay so Bowser get's the Clown Car? Nice.
Mewtwo get's TMs? Even better.

Now, Mewtwo first would use Embargo. No items and Star Rod for Bowser.
Bowser flies up with the Clown Car. Mewtwo floates up uses Gravity, and the Clown Car crashes.
GG Bowser.

 

[Technologikall]

Ah lol Mewtwo obviously wins for reasons stated in other posts so ignore this.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Of coarse Mewtwo gets hits by Earthquake... if he stands on the ground.
If he's not, then he doesn't get hit <_< Easy as that really.

 

[justaway12]

@Justaway: Metaknight summons them himself, Mario calls not summon. (Unless I'm wrong here.)

They are both in-game abiltys, he summons the star spirits and Meta-knight summons his ship.

Mewtwo never showed levitation in the actual Pokemon Stadium fights. I'm speaking of his intro screen where he is definitely seen floathing on empty sky. On pokemon Mystery Dungeon, he floats down from the top of his dungeon cave very quickly, but he's able to fully control his descend speed.

Also, just because one game features something and another doesn't mean that one ability is now bogus. Many characters (or basically everyone) here are allowed abilities that do not happen on any other game besides one maybe.

But NOTHING contradicts it >_>
He is shown to get hi by earthquakes and ground abilities.
Why is PD canon again =/

Seriously, can we bring non-canon now? Because then Bowser gets his go-kart and I remember one game allowed you to get an item, he'll just come in with a star and drive.

Because we added PD, which you except is outer-canon.
And nobody knows the canon for mario.

Many franchises have official canons established by creators of the series, companies owning franchise trademarks, and other sources of authority. Unlike many other franchises, the Super Mario series and its many spin-offs do not have an officially recognized canon.

By that logic, this should be allowed =/

What is allowed is allowed. I did go through many arguments to allowe Mewtwo even a modicum of of his max potential to be used...

What is allowed shouldn't always be allowed >_>

But hey, Groudon is a pokemon that shapes entire continents, Tyranitar basically topples mountains with bare fists alone and Gyarados destroyes cities. Yet none of these is capable of OHKO'ing mewtwo. Bowser doesn't even come close to groudon's size anyway.

http://wiimedia.ign.com/wii/image/article/803/803385/super-mario-galaxy-20070711110619818.jpg
http://static.gamesradar.com/images...mparison/Finished/Mario642--article_image.jpg
http://static.gamesradar.com/images...omparison/Finished/Bowser3--article_image.jpg

O rly =/

As proved on pokemon PMD, Mewtwo is able to float on free will and very quickly too with precision, thus meaning Bowser is hard pressed to escape using Clown car. And as someone wisely pointed out, Mewtwo is also capable of Teleporting on Generation 1 and only unable to learn it on further games because that TM doesn't exist anymore. But simply being able to float very fast is enough to keep up with Bowser.

This really SHOULDN'T be allowed =/
one apperance doesn't mean omg HE CAN FLY!
But whatever, Bowser just gets out his mechatroopas.

Also on Clown car, Bowser is unable to use any physical attacks on Mewtwo, sadly making him a lot more restricted he was on ground. He can neither use teleport whe using Clown car.

Restricted =/
http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp143/justaway12/5x7/Bowser-battle-hurt.jpg
There is plenty of room.

As it appears, Clown car actually HINDERS Bowser and doesn't even benefit him any, cause he cannot outrange mewtwo by flying alone.

Again, Mechakoopas, fire, etc.

Oh and lets not forget, when he is flying, he can just be turned to stone, Bowser can also summon big boo and use terrorise, that should obviously distract mewtwo =/

@Missingnomaster: I know is that post was a long time ago, but Mario can just use his boo sheet/repel gel, then go to Pokemon Trainer.

If we are going to extremes, Bowser goes on his time machine, then attacks Mewtwo in the back =/

 

[Technologikall]

You're right. We should only allow canon. So why does Bowser have Paper Bowsers items again?
Also PMd is canon

 

[justaway12]

Because they are the same person =/

 

[Diddy Kong]

Mario can't use Repel Gel, infact Mario can't use items at all.
Embargo can both be used by Mewtwo and... some random Pogeyman the trainer uses.

That pretty much leaves Mario only able to use his hammer or jump abilities, while being pretty strong I doubt he's able to take down 6 uber strong Pokemon creatures trained in combat. And even if Embargo isn't used, a Pokemon using Whirlwind would be enough to blow Mario away from the range of the trainer.

Mewtwo uses Embargo on Bowser, so Bowser can't use items. Then Bowser would likely try and use his strongest move... which is, Idunnowhat. Mewtwo predicts this, uses Me First and Bowser receives 1.5x damage. Next, Mewtwo attacks, and Bowser's dead.

 

[justaway12]

wat =l

You don't play a lot of Mario games, do you?

Just use Ultra jump on PKMN trainier, it goes on forever, I doubt Pokmon trainer could handle it =/
His ultra flame too.

If Whirlwind is used, that would be a good thing, enough time to take Embargo off.

And don't just say what happens to Bowser =/
Me first would work if Bowser attacks, but instead he can fly on his Koopa kar =/
Or teleport, or turn Mewtwo into an inanimate objects.
And again, crusher comes out in a split second, enough to push Mewtwo back.

And Raizen? answer my question please about the star spirits, my rebuttal is in the first quote of my last post.

 

[Technologikall]

Because they are the same person =/

So is the Mewtwo from both games as proven earlier.

 

[justaway12]

That isn't the point.

I'm not denying that they might be the same person.
Bowser from Mario Kart and Mario Party is the same person as Bowser from Super Mario 64, yet he isn't allowed to use anything from party/sports games.

I'm saying there is a lot of holes that make it uncanon

 

[Technologikall]

That isn't the point.

I'm not denying that they might be the same person.
Bowser from Mario Kart and Mario Party is the same person as Bowser from Super Mario 64, yet he isn't allowed to use anything from party/sports games.

I'm saying there is a lot of holes that make it uncanon

Like? Pokémon turning Paper? Sorry wrong game.

Seriously Mario Paper might be canon but PMD certainly is as well. Nothing contradicts the main games in PMD.

 

[justaway12]

Ok, ignoring the fact that it's a place full of pokemon living in houses, buyining things.

How did Mewtwo get there? ~*Magic*~? Imagination?
It may have a story and ****, but so does Mario Party =/
I remember Bowser flying in Mario Party 5

You know what, why doesn't Bowser get his airship? That is sure to be better than the clown car.

Wait a minute! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS3TgDF9bww#t=4m
Much faster than 64

 

[Technologikall]

Ok, ignoring the fact that it's a place full of pokemon living in houses, buyining things.

How did Mewtwo get there? ~*Magic*~? Imagination?
It may have a story and ****, but so does Mario Party =/
I remember Bowser flying in Mario Party 5

You know what, why doesn't Bowser get his airship? That is sure to be better than the clown car.

Pokémon live in houses and talk because it's the Pokémon world. The main character is send from the human world to the pokemon world. He's also surprised that pkmn can talk which means that pkmn can not talk in his own world. PMD also speaks of trainers in the human world which makes perfect sense since the world in the main games is the same world as the human world in PMD.

Also legends can move. One of the three Spirit legends moves in D/p while the other two remain in the same place. Becaue they can do both. Mewtwo even moves in the main games to some cave after he escaped from that labaratory. That's a long travel. So obviously Mewtwo is free to run around towns because he did so in the main games story.
So what would prevent him to travel to the Pokémon World?

 

[justaway12]

Pokémon live in houses and talk because it's the Pokémon world. The main character is send from the human world to the pokemon world. He's also surprised that pkmn can talk which means that pkmn can not talk in his own world. PMD also speaks of trainers in the human world which makes perfect sense since the world in the main games is the same world as the human world in PMD.

I think pokemon can communitcate with other pokemon, that's why he can communicate, but that isn't the point, it goes away sooooo much from the main story, we have to find single quotes, vague or not to prove that it is canon, even though it is noramally regarded as non-canon =/

Also legends can move. One of the three Spirit legends moves in D/p while the other two remain in the same place.

But how did they get to the magical pokemon world?

Becaue they can do both. Mewtwo even moves in the main games to some cave after he escaped from that labaratory. That's a long travel. So obviously Mewtwo is free to run around towns because he did so in the main games story.
So what would prevent him to travel to the Pokémon World?

He move, obviously, but why would he go out and purposely look for TMs =/
Besides, I doubt he would go out in the open, where people are and look for TMs =/

HOw does he even know how to get to the Pokemon world =/

 

[Technologikall]

How he got to the pkmn world? even PMD doesn't tell that about its main char. But it happened. I could ask how bowser got the clown car. Is Bowser that technical? Who made it?
The game says he has it so he has it. The game says Mewtwo can travel around Kanto and to the pkmn world so he can.

And what do you mean with quotes? Many legendaries have quotes to show that they are from the main games. Like Mewtwo being created in a laboratory.

 

[justaway12]

He makes a lot of his own things, he even made a time machine.

It's not that easy, you know =/
If it was then everything would be banned =/
But this is travelling to another world, you can't just say "The game says he has it so he has it", there needs to be an explanation.

Getting a weapon =/= travelling to other worlds somehow.

 

[Technologikall]

But this is travelling to another world, you can't just say "The game says he has it so he has it", there needs to be an explanation.

Yes you can.

If all smash characters were true to their games. R2/M3 [POKEMON VS. MARIO] 11/07/09

If Mewtwo was true to his own games then he could freely travel between the islands and towns (As he did in R/B/Y/LF/FR) and to the Pokémon World (As he did in PMD).

 

[missingnomaster]

But hey, Groudon is a pokemon that shapes entire continents, Tyranitar basically topples mountains with bare fists alone and Gyarados destroyes cities. Yet none of these is capable of OHKO'ing mewtwo. Bowser doesn't even come close to groudon's size anyway.

--

Umm, the gameplay is not supported by the Pokedex AT ALL. How unimaginably strong must pokemon be if Tyranitar, a pokemon who's body cannot be harmed, can take damage from a level 1 Ratata?

@the Repel Gel/Boo Sheet argument: Would either of these prevent Embargo from working?
Other item related moves Red has access to just for thinking on:
Trick
Theif
Covet
Knock Off

 

[justaway12]

Yes you can.

If you can, you know, back it up =/

If Mewtwo was true to his own games then he could freely travel between the islands and towns (As he did in R/B/Y/LF/FR) and to the Pokémon World (As he did in PMD).

Yet he never was seen savenging for TMs =/

@Master: Not that big of a problem, Mario can just use Ultra Jump on Pokemon trainer, it could techinacally go on forever, if PKMN is repeatedly jumped on, that would probably kill him/break his neck, and Mario shoots to the sky and is off-screen when that happens, so it's not like he is hopping.

What Pokemon does he have?

 

[Samochan]

But NOTHING contradicts it >_>
He is shown to get hi by earthquakes and ground abilities.
Why is PD canon again =/

*clears throat*

Gardevoir on pokemon is shown both graphically on every instance (from main series to artwork to 3D) to be levitating above ground level and pokedex states "this pokemon doesn't apparently feel the pull of gravity because it supports itself with psychic powers" and on pokemon ranch, gardevoir displays the ability levitate. HOWEVER, gardevoir in game doesn't possess levitate ability but trace and synchronize, nor does gardevour learn any move that would lift gardy above ground level and thus be immune to earthquake in-game.

Pokemons have many abilities that cannot be even displayed in game (obviously for gameplay reasons), yet are very much canon.

Seriously, can we bring non-canon now? Because then Bowser gets his go-kart and I remember one game allowed you to get an item, he'll just come in with a star and drive.

Because we added PD, which you except is outer-canon.
And nobody knows the canon for mario.

By that logic, this should be allowed =/

Paper Mario is allowed. Because Paper Mario contradics the mario universe by making Mario paperised, by your logic Paper Mario wouldn't be canon. Yet Paper Mario is allowed.

Also lol at Bowser restricting himself to simple go-kart & star.

What is allowed shouldn't always be allowed >_>

By your reasoning, which isn't something that in the end decides whether something is legit in this thread or not. <_< I did go through all that trouble, went through all the arguments against it and provided legitimate reasons why PMD should be allowed in this conversation and Raizen accepted it. But all you basically do is still whine. Stop it please, I'm not happy either because Meta lost due to ganondorf invincibility and all kinds of things, but I accept other people's logic if they are reasonable and I cannot refute them.

http://wiimedia.ign.com/wii/image/article/803/803385/super-mario-galaxy-20070711110619818.jpg
http://static.gamesradar.com/images...mparison/Finished/Mario642--article_image.jpg
http://static.gamesradar.com/images...omparison/Finished/Bowser3--article_image.jpg

O rly =/

Okay, maybe I should've used Wailord example then, 14,5m in height whee. >_> Groudon still weights 950kg aka 2094lbs, lol.

This really SHOULDN'T be allowed =/
one apperance doesn't mean omg HE CAN FLY!
But whatever, Bowser just gets out his mechatroopas.

One very clear appearance means omg he really can use his psychic powers to levitate such as Gardevoir, Alakazam, every other psychic pokemon... and one appearance of Star Rod apparently is enough lol. Among smaller things.

Restricted =/
http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp143/justaway12/5x7/Bowser-battle-hurt.jpg
There is plenty of room.

And how is he gotta actually physically hit anyone from inside a flying vehicle? >_>

Again, Mechakoopas, fire, etc.

Oh and lets not forget, when he is flying, he can just be turned to stone, Bowser can also summon big boo and use terrorise, that should obviously distract mewtwo =/

If we are going to extremes, Bowser goes on his time machine, then attacks Mewtwo in the back =/

Levitation in itself doesn't restrict the usage of substitute nor other attacks. Flying does, because you basically need to flap your wings and as we well know, it would be very broken in gameplay if you were able to do attacks safely when flying in such semi-invulnerable state. Psychic Levitation doesn't require anything else besides psychic support, which does not restrict the usage of other psychic powers. (see gardevoir example, no levitation ability but is is able to levitate canonically).

Mechakoopas are frail, mario jumps/kicks em and bam. Their flames are not much either. In any case, if Bowser uses Clown car, he's thereby resricted in using either magic or dropping stuff from the car, as he'll have hard time physically hitting anyone from there.

Boos, gengar... what's the difference? >_> Oh yea, gengars are muuuuch worse, they overtake you with your own shadow, laugh at your fright, steal the heat from your body and apparently life force as well. It would take much more than a Boo to scare Mewtwo enough for him to be unable to battle lol (if he even gets scared at all, he's a savage combat machine). Even Luigi who's nervous wreck can deal with haunted house.

Time machine would count as leaving the field, you cannot go before in time at the battle before it has actually started as you cannot finish it then, not forgetting a doubleyou would create many problems in such situation among with legality issue in this thread. Besides, where does he get a time machine anyway? (liek what game) <_< Can he even carry such thing in his.. koopa shell pockets?

Ok, ignoring the fact that it's a place full of pokemon living in houses, buyining things.

How did Mewtwo get there? ~*Magic*~? Imagination?
It may have a story and ****, but so does Mario Party =/
I remember Bowser flying in Mario Party 5

You know what, why doesn't Bowser get his airship? That is sure to be better than the clown car.

Even I could build a house made from sticks or leaves lol. And other "houses" in PMD consists of a Cave and a Tent pitched above a tunnel thingy on a cliff. And if they have currency (lol pokedollar is a golden button lookalike thingy, so probably just metal such as gold), what's the big deal? You gotta have money if you wanna have a working economy and as pokemon have co-existed so long with humans, they have assimilated stuff from humans to their own lifestyles as well. >_>

Mewtwo can uh, float and move around as we very well know. In fact, he escaped Cinnabar island (which is an island surrounded by water and no ship travels there) to all the way in Cerulean frigging cave. He's very well able to travel if he can make that distance rofl.

And if you were gonna use an airship (do you mean the one in Super Mario Galaxy?), be my guest but be aware, such a ship can be crashed with the simple usage of Gravity. Such thing would also pull Bowser right with it.

The why's or how's of random human turned poke popping up in PMD is not relevant in this discussion anyway.

But anyways, you are basically grasping (or trying to) any tiny straw you might be able to reach to try and refute these, yet you've never provided any good argument why something couldn't happen when a person is obviously capable of doing so and even does it ingames. Are you gonna ask next whether Mewtwo can move his arms at all because obviously he doesn't graphically moves his arms on the main handheld games, thus mewtwo being able to have mobile arms is uncanon? That kind of questions.

I'm fairly sure Bowser for example is perfectly capable of breathing or even picking his nose if he so wished, even when I don't see him picking his nose ingame.

If someone has the ability to do something, they can do it. I'm not asking myself how I can walk or breathe lol. Also, I'm not askign how Bowser managed to build himself a ****ing working time machine. He must be a ****ing genious then, cept he's obviously not.

Missignomaster, that rattata would be dead before he could do any damage unless he used quick attack/sucker punch (rattata can't learn that on lv1 unles bred). And it basically deals 1 hp lol, that's pathetic. Besides, it only speaks of it's armor body, everything else is free to go alongside of using special attacks.

But hey, did you know this stuff about Raticate: "It whittles its constantly growing fangs by gnawing on hard things. It can chew apart cinder walls."

Rattata and Raticate have powerful and sharp front teeth which are used to gnaw very hard objects like rocks to keep em from growing too long.

If you recruit Mewtwo into your team, you're free to go scavenge tm's anyway. >_>

 

[missingnomaster]

If you can, you know, back it up =/




Yet he never was seen savenging for TMs =/

@Master: Not that big of a problem, Mario can just use Ultra Jump on Pokemon trainer, it could techinacally go on forever, if PKMN is repeatedly jumped on, that would probably kill him/break his neck, and Mario shoots to the sky and is off-screen when that happens, so it's not like he is hopping.

What Pokemon does he have?

So far the following have been brought up for this matchup
Kyogre(For largeness and power)
Lugia(for being able to Fly Red)
Dusclops/Dusknoir (for Embargo, and perhaps Curse, but I haven't mentioned that yet)
Articuno (Mind REader + Sheer Cold, though that might not work on Mario)

Doesn't really matter now though, because Super Jump is pretty quick.


@Samochan: So? Going by the Pokedex, Tyranitar's body is invincible. Yet here's these level 1 pokemon pokemon slowly chipping away with physical attacks.

 

[Samochan]

So onto Mewtwo's possible moveset... finally. <_<;

For item, Mewtwo gets a Lum berry (very available, just get a berry tree), which will cure him from stoning/tumbleweed if Bowser gets at him on some point.

Taunt is fun to use. The foe is taunted into a rage that allows it to only use attack moves for 2-4 turns. Basically Bowser would be forced to attack mewtwo then when Mewtwo taunts. Furthermore, if a non-attacking move was used on the turn tautn was used, the move will fail to work at all and wastes a turn. Even when items force the foe to use only one move (choice items) that's not an attacking move, then the actual move fails and the foe uses struggles until taunt wears off. Taunt also disables Bowser from using status moves, so turned into stone is completely disabled when taunt is working. =) Using an item is definitely a non-attack move, alongside that it could be also counted into stat up moves.

As mewtwo is faster, this works as a setup for the following.

Embargo is obvious choice for this matchup here. Cause taunt prevents status moves and lum berry is there for insurance and after toxic, mewtwo is free to just stall and wait it out for a little while. I doubt mewtwo needs additional protection against status moves with this moveset.

Toxic is a nasty piece of work, as it first chips away 1/16 of your health, next turn 2/16, next turn 3/16 and so on. The amount of poison damage can also exceed your current health. And I've yet to hear Bowser having status ailment curing moves, so this should prove to be very effective against Bowser before he manages to use the invincibility of the star rod. I also really doubt Star Rod would save him from getting KO'ed by toxic anyway, cause toxic happened before invincibility and it won't simply go away if you wish for being invincible against attacks.

Recovery is for obvious purposes.

 

[justaway12]

*clears throat*

Gardevoir on pokemon is shown both graphically on every instance (from main series to artwork to 3D) to be levitating above ground level and pokedex states "this pokemon doesn't apparently feel the pull of gravity because it supports itself with psychic powers" and on pokemon ranch, gardevoir displays the ability levitate. HOWEVER, gardevoir in game doesn't possess levitate ability but trace and synchronize, nor does gardevour learn any move that would lift gardy above ground level and thus be immune to earthquake in-game.

Is it maybe because she was floating too close to the ground =/
You're just breaking Canon right now =/

Pokemons have many abilities that cannot be even displayed in game (obviously for gameplay reasons), yet are very much canon.

Really? Because I think placing mewtwo above the ground would, you know, help

Paper Mario is allowed. Because Paper Mario contradics the mario universe by making Mario paperised, by your logic Paper Mario wouldn't be canon. Yet Paper Mario is allowed.

Also lol at Bowser restricting himself to simple go-kart & star.

Paper doesn't add a lot of things to the game, SSBB/M proved it was canon, it still has a similar story, and the paper does not add a lot. Seriosly, it was only a gimmick >_>

Who said he would only get that? He is free to get other things and he is in the star nothing can effet him, he is free to transform

By your reasoning, which isn't something that in the end decides whether something is legit in this thread or not. <_< I did go through all that trouble, went through all the arguments against it and provided legitimate reasons why PMD should be allowed in this conversation and Raizen accepted it. But all you basically do is still whine. Stop it please, I'm not happy either because Meta lost due to ganondorf invincibility and all kinds of things, but I accept other people's logic if they are reasonable and I cannot refute them.

I'm free to express my opinion, yet that isn't you still haven't explained how Mewtwo came in here, how the pokemon get the resources, there were even reliable sources that showed PMD NOT being canon?
Remember earliear on in the thread? When Mewtwo lost that round, you whined yourself, complaining that he lost because you had to sleep =/

Okay, maybe I should've used Wailord example then, 14,5m in height whee. >_> Groudon still weights 950kg aka 2094lbs, lol.

Does size REALLY matter? If so Bowser is bigger then Mewtwo.

One very clear appearance means omg he really can use his psychic powers to levitate such as Gardevoir, Alakazam, every other psychic pokemon... and one appearance of Star Rod apparently is enough lol. Among smaller things.

It's not one apperance. it was beased of thethe whole storyline

And how is he gotta actually physically hit anyone from inside a flying vehicle? >_>

Fire, Mechakoopas, etc.

Levitation in itself doesn't restrict the usage of substitute nor other attacks. Flying does, because you basically need to flap your wings and as we well know, it would be very broken in gameplay if you were able to do attacks safely when flying. Psychic Levitation doesn't require anything else besides psychic support, which does not restrict the usage of other psychic powers. (see gardevoir example, no levitation ability but is is able to levitate canonically).

He has to concentrate, if something distracts him, he would lose his train of thought and not focus not flying.

Mechakoopas are frail, mario jumps/kicks em and bam. Their flames are not much either.

They would still be enough to distract Mewtwo.

In any case, if Bowser uses Clown car, he's thereby resricted in using either magic or dropping stuff from the car, as he'll have hard time physically hitting anyone from there.[/QUOTE]

http://www.koopatorivm.com/deco/manhua/sma33-3.jpg
O rly =/

Boos, gengar... what's the difference? >_> Oh yea, gengars are muuuuch worse, they overtake you with your own shadow, laugh at your fright, steal the heat from your body and apparently life force as well. It would take much more than a Boo to scare Mewtwo enough for him to be unable to battle lol (if he even gets scared at all, he's a savage combat machine). Even Luigi who's nervous wreck can deal with haunted house.

It's a HUGE ghost standing in his way =/
His scream also makes people flee from battle, like roar or something.

Time machine would count as leaving the field, you cannot go before in time at the battle before it has actually started as you cannot finish it then, not forgetting a doubleyou would create many problems in such situation among with legality issue in this thread. Besides, where does he get a time machine anyway? (liek what game) <_< Can he even carry such thing in his.. koopa shell pockets?

Time Machine counts as going back in time, how about flying all over the stage counts as leaving the field =/

He got it in Marios time machine.

Even I could build a house made from sticks or leaves lol. And other "houses" in PMD consists of a Cave and a Tent pitched above a tunnel thingy on a cliff. And if they have currency (lol pokedollar is a golden button lookalike thingy, so probably just metal such as gold), what's the big deal? You gotta have money if you wanna have a working economy and as pokemon have co-existed so long with humans, they have assimilated stuff from humans to their own lifestyles as well. >_>

Look at typhlosions house, or what ever his de-evolved self is, it's not just sticks =/

Mewtwo can uh, float and move around as we very well know. In fact, he escaped Cinnabar island (which is an island surrounded by water and no ship travels there) to all the way in Cerulean frigging cave. He's very well able to travel if he can make that distance rofl.

How does he even know where it is? It's in another world =/

And if you were gonna use an airship (do you mean the one in Super Mario Galaxy?), be my guest but be aware, such a ship can be crashed with the simple usage of Gravity. Such thing would also pull Bowser right with it.

Bullet Bills would keep him occupied before he gets a chance, or, you know, crusher.

That random human popping up in PMD is not relevant in this discussion anyway.

What?

But anyways, you are basically grasping (or trying to) any tiny straw you might be able to reach to try and refute these, yet you've never provided any good argument why something couldn't happen when a person is obviously capable of doing so and even does it ingames. Are you gonna ask next whether Mewtwo can move his arms at all because obviously he doesn't graphically moves his arms on the main handheld games, thus mewtwo being able to have mobile arms is uncanon? That kind of questions.

I'm not saying that, you basically say, oh Mewtwo can just go out Where people are and go scavanging for TMs, because even though PEOPLE are there, it could happen =/
And what about you finding little technicalities and quotes saying "oh, I was manufactured", that's not grasping at straws =/

If someone has the ability to do something, they can do it. I'm not asking myself how I can walk or breathe lol. Also, I'm not askign how Bowser managed to build himself a ****ing working time machine. He must be a ****ing genious then, cept he's obviously not.

Yes, they can, that's why I haven't been saying Mewtwo can't move his arms =/
yet, what your saying, a pokemon who, doesn't want to be seen by humans or something like that go out all willy-nilly only to look for TMs =/

Again, I could use the same arguments for Mario Party, Mario Sports, Links Crossbow Training, maybe. Hell, why not just add Pokemon Pinball =/

EDIT:

So onto Mewtwo's possible moveset... finally. <_<;

For item, Mewtwo gets a Lum berry (very available, just get a berry tree), which will cure him from stoning/tumbleweed if Bowser gets at him on some point.

Taunt is fun to use. The foe is taunted into a rage that allows it to only use attack moves for 2-4 turns. Basically Bowser would be forced to attack mewtwo then when Mewtwo taunts. Furthermore, if a non-attacking move was used on the turn tautn was used, the move will fail to work at all and wastes a turn. Even when items force the foe to use only one move (choice items) that's not an attacking move, then the actual move fails and the foe uses struggles until taunt wears off. Taunt also disables Bowser from using status moves, so turned into stone is completely disabled when taunt is working. =) Using an item is definitely a non-attack move, alongside that it could be also counted into stat up moves.

As mewtwo is faster, this works as a setup for the following.

Embargo is obvious choice for this matchup here. Cause taunt prevents status moves and lum berry is there for insurance and after toxic, mewtwo is free to just stall and wait it out for a little while. I doubt mewtwo needs additional protection against status moves with this moveset.

Toxic is a nasty piece of work, as it first chips away 1/16 of your health, next turn 2/16, next turn 3/16 and so on. The amount of poison damage can also exceed your current health. And I've yet to hear Bowser having status ailment curing moves, so this should prove to be very effective against Bowser before he manages to use the invincibility of the star rod. I also really doubt Star Rod would save him from getting KO'ed by toxic anyway, cause toxic happened before invincibility and it won't simply go away if you wish for being invincible against attacks.

Recovery is for obvious purposes.

Toxic won't work, Bowser has a ring that cures all status ailments, that includes Toxic.
Taunt and Disable also won't.

 

[Samochan]

@Samochan: So? Going by the Pokedex, Tyranitar's body is invincible. Yet here's these level 1 pokemon pokemon slowly chipping away with physical attacks.

"Its body can't be harmed by any sort of attack, so it is very eager to make challenges against enemies."

"According to the FireRed and LeafGreen Pokédex descriptions, Larvitar is the Rock (Rock Skin) Pokémon, Pupitar is the Hard (Hard Shell) Pokémon, and Tyranitar is the Armor Pokémon. Put together, this says "Rock Hard Armor," one of Tyranitar's most notable traits."

"They are extremely strong, and their thick, rocky hides give them a good resistance. Because of this, they are always looking forward for a battle, and will not flinch at anything."

Basically Tyranitars built their rock hard armor by eating minerals from mountains. Invincible is not the term used here, but it does say the same thing. However, even if the outer region of Tyranitar is invincible, physical attacks can still damage him internally and Tyranitar has gaping holes in his defence as well (literaly). For example, if you were in a car crash and your seatbelt prevented you from gaining any external injuries, the speed you were being hit with basically moved your inner organs from their sockets, thus causing fatal internal damage. And for gameplay reasons, rattata's able to take 1 hp from tyranitar lol.

 

[Technologikall]

About the floating thing, look at Magneton. Gets ***** by EQ very badly, yet it's hovering.

So getting hit by EQ is not a valid reason.

 

[Samochan]

Is it maybe because she was floating too close to the ground =/
You're just breaking Canon right now =/

I just proved it was canon. <_<

Really? Because I think placing mewtwo above the ground would, you know, help

Levitation is not limited to floathing just above ground level you know.

Paper doesn't add a lot of things to the game, SSBB/M proved it was canon, it still has a similar story, and the paper does not add a lot. Seriosly, it was only a gimmick >_>

This "gimmick" is such an excuse, I could say that for a whole lot of things. =) Kinda liek game mechanics.

Who said he would only get that? He is free to get other things and he is in the star nothing can effet him, he is free to transform

On mario kart games, you need those boxes to get items from and they're always randomized. You cannot find these boxes here. Provide proof Bowser could get a guaranteed star without a box.

I'm free to express my opinion, yet that isn't you still haven't explained how Mewtwo came in here, how the pokemon get the resources, there were even reliable sources that showed PMD NOT being canon?
Remember earliear on in the thread? When Mewtwo lost that round, you whined yourself, complaining that he lost because you had to sleep =/

Do you require fanfiction to make you happy? >_> How's is not important because Mewtwo is capable of doing it and thus he can.

Leaves grow in forests, pokemon resources consist of natural ingredients (just how humans do, we've manufactured things before we even had machines, much less being able to even speak a language or be moderately intelligent).

I also jokingly whined, but cause I had to sleep, I couldn't even explain why he shouldn't have lost. So it escaped me and now I have to do this. :/

Also, how about you explain how Bowser managed to locate himself to whichever place he's been then, like space and stuff, in turn. How about explain where Bowser gets his items too.

Does size REALLY matter? If so Bowser is bigger then Mewtwo.

Well size doesn't matter much, but ability.

It's not one apperance. it was beased of thethe whole storyline

Among smaller things that are allowed.

Fire, Mechakoopas, etc.

He throws those out from his car to ground.

He has to concentrate, if something distracts him, he would lose his train of thought and not focus not flying.

Proof? Gardevoir certainly doesn't need much concentration if gardy is able to just float and do attacks at the same time. Levitation would be like walking to Mewtwo lol, the most powerful psychic in the pokeverse.

Mewtwo is not earthbound character. >_>

They would still be enough to distract Mewtwo.

http://www.koopatorivm.com/deco/manhua/sma33-3.jpg
O rly =/

Hardly. <_<

It's a HUGE ghost standing in his way =/
His scream also makes people flee from battle, like roar or something.

Mewtwo can use Roar too. And Bowser hasn't yet summoned a Big Boo out of Clown car to my understanding. And Big boo basically is sentinent and roams his haunted houses and whatnot. Wouldn't that be back-up then?

Time Machine counts as going back in time, how about flying all over the stage counts as leaving the field =/

He got it in Marios time machine.

http://www.mariowiki.com/Timulator

It doesn't work like that lol. It has many restrictions like that it requires Mushrooms that are collected via surfing in fabric of time. Timulator is also big and probably not too durable.

Look at typhlosions house, or what ever his de-evolved self is, it's not just sticks =/

It's cyndaquil. But it either was a tent or wood house, which both use natural ingredients.

How does he even know where it is? It's in another world =/

*facepalm* He was kinda created in Cinnabar and then went to Cerulean cave in main story. But we do not know the timeline in PMD and relocation is entirely possible. Actually, probable because in GSC the Cerulean cave entrance is totally blocked.

Bullet Bills would keep him occupied before he gets a chance, or, you know, crusher.

Crusher from his ship? <_> How about crush his ship with that then? =)

I'm not saying that, you basically say, oh Mewtwo can just go out Where people are and go scavanging for TMs, because even though PEOPLE are there, it could happen =/
And what about you finding little technicalities and quotes saying "oh, I was manufactured", that's not grasping at straws =/

In PMD the tm's are not found from human sites, but dungeons and you can buy em too. <_< But basically the routes where the tm's are located aren't always occupied by whatever trainer that suffer from permanent insomnia lol.

And it's not a straw, but a legit quote that can prove validity, among other things I had pointed out.

Yes, they can, that's why I haven't been saying Mewtwo can't move his arms =/
yet, what your saying, a pokemon who, doesn't want to be seen by humans or something like that go out all willy-nilly only to look for TMs =/

Now where's your proof? =) Pokedex and stuff only state Mewtwo escaped the lab, then went to cerulean cave hideout and that's he's savage pokemon. It doesn't say Mewtwo doesn't want to be seen by humans and thus he went and hid.

Again, I could use the same arguments for Mario Party, Mario Sports, Links Crossbow Training, maybe. Hell, why not just add Pokemon Pinball =/

Not much of a storyline iirc.

Toxic won't work, Bowser has a ring that cures all status ailments, that includes Toxic.
Taunt and Disable also won't.

Well **** ring then. <.< But is it an item that works automatically whenever Bowser is status ailmented or does he need to activate it? If he needs to, embargo should work.

And explain why taunt or disable wouldn't work, this conversation doesn't work this way. >_>

Techno, Magneton is not even using levitate but it floats via electromagentic waves, like Brongzong and Metang. Magneton and Metang and friends can learn magnet rise, which makes them immune to ground attacks however. And gardy gets hit by EQ too, so guess you just gotta go higher from the ground (which mewtwo is able to do).

 

[Technologikall]

If you can, you know, back it up =/




Yet he never was seen savenging for TMs =/

@Master: Not that big of a problem, Mario can just use Ultra Jump on Pokemon trainer, it could techinacally go on forever, if PKMN is repeatedly jumped on, that would probably kill him/break his neck, and Mario shoots to the sky and is off-screen when that happens, so it's not like he is hopping.

What Pokemon does he have?

Seriously but if you're going to follow the story that closely then Bowser can not have the Star Rod + an item from another game. He got and lost the star Rod in the same game, right? Where do we see Bowser retrieving it again?

I don't see why Bowser could go back and pick up the Star Rod even though besides not happening in any game, it even contradicts the Mario story line.

At least Mewtwo getting TMs won't contradict the story as a whole since he did in PMD which story involves the main games story and, unlike Bowser and his Star rod, Mewtwo being able to getting TMs but just not wanting to doesn't contradict anything. It's not like someone is preventing Mewtwo to get the TMs by force.

 

[Samochan]

Seriously but if you're going to follow the story that closely then Bowser can not have the Star Rod + an item from another game. He got and lost the star Rod in the same game, right? Where do we see Bowser retrieving it again?

I don't see why Bowser could go back and pick up the Star Rod even though besides not happening in any game, it even contradicts the Mario story line.

At least Mewtwo getting TMs won't contradict the story as a whole since he did in PMD which story involves the main games story and, unlike Bowser and his Star rod, Mewtwo being able to getting TMs but just not wanting to doesn't contradict anything. It's not like someone is preventing Mewtwo to get the TMs by force.

<3 Mucho love.

 

[missingnomaster]

So what moves will Mewtwo have? I've heard mention of Gravity, Embaro, Taunt, and a lot of others.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

They are both in-game abiltys, he summons the star spirits and Meta-knight summons his ship.

Yes, but take a look here:

* Meta Quick: Speeds up Meta Knight and his Helper.
* Heal: Fully heals Meta Knight and his Helper with the use of black magic.
* Summon Knight: Summons a Sword Knight or Blade Knight. Acts as a Helper. It should be noted that Sword Knight can use an upwards thrust, but Blade Knight cannot.
* Mach Tornado: Functions similarly to Crash but does slightly more damage.

There's a difference between summoning and calling upon.

@Sasha: Well, to clarify, I'd have to say no. In almost every Pokemon game, trainers called their Pokemons out.

These being examples: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNmKNhm-1Js

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkF7Xjxn9jc&feature=fvw

 

[Samochan]

Raizen, what's your take on this TM debate?

I'm getting very tired of explaining over and over again, this takes many many hours and I don't wanna end up staying up all night again and I'd really really like to move up with the actual debate of Mewtwo vs Bowser and the current debate as well. <_< There's plenty of stuff to read, hope you've managed to keep up.

 

[missingnomaster]

Yes, but take a look here:

* Meta Quick: Speeds up Meta Knight and his Helper.
* Heal: Fully heals Meta Knight and his Helper with the use of black magic.
* Summon Knight: Summons a Sword Knight or Blade Knight. Acts as a Helper. It should be noted that Sword Knight can use an upwards thrust, but Blade Knight cannot.
* Mach Tornado: Functions similarly to Crash but does slightly more damage.

There's a difference between summoning and calling upon.

@Sasha: Well, to clarify, I'd have to say no. In almost every Pokemon game, trainers called their Pokemons out.

These being examples: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNmKNhm-1Js

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkF7Xjxn9jc&feature=fvw

Yellow version clearly shows that there's nothing wrong with keeping a pokemon out at all times though.

Plus, whenever he calls out his first pokemon, he does it before the match starts.