Smash Back Room Weekly Character Discussions! FINAL UPDATES: Ness + Lucas. All done!!

[Intercept]

It doesn't say Up-B, it says recovery, which would include Falco's illusion.

 

[Popertop]

It doesn't say their Up-B, it says their recovery.
Due to it's buffs, people mainly recover with Falco Phantasm instead of Fire Bird.
And toon link's is punishable on the ground, so it's not him.
Pikachu, Falco, or Zelda.
Although I'm not really leaning toward Zelda because you can just clank with Din's fire...

 

[Godhand_Soup]

I say Pit. The recovery on the ground thing sounds like his wing cancel stuff. Lucas also fits the bill, so either one.

 

[chubas]

My bet on Pit or Falco.

 

[Antinegative]

If you think its anybody but pit or dedede you're nuts

I lean towards Pit....everyone was going bonkers over this guy up until recently, his recovery is a big plus, and arrow spam means he has a great projectile game.

 

[redgreenblue]

*cough* uh... hello Falco Phantasm? Sooooo hard to gimp and insane range and speed. You can't really punish a properly placed phantasm on stage at all, and off stage the only way to punish would be fast reflexes with a spiking dair or a slow smash attack. Fire bird is only useful for certain things... vertical recovery and being unpredictable with your recovery. Using it as an attack at sub 100% is just stupid, and even at above 100% another attack could accomplish the same thing or more.

Let's see how Falco matches up with the week 7 requirements:

This week's character is someone who nearly everyone thinks is a very strong competitor,

I have yet to find anyone who says Falco is not strong in most, if not all, regards.

but strangely isn't placing as well in tournaments as some would expect.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954 is proof.

Perhaps nobody has tapped into the character's true potential yet?

Every Falco video on youtube is garbage. Not a single tolerable combo video, the only decent Falco videos are a few from sethlon and bombsoldier. We need more Falco players stepping up his metagame, god **** it he has so much potential, stop ignoring him!

One way or another, this character can be frustrating to approach with the character's great projectile game,

PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW

but is no slouch when you get in close.

Falco is one of the best comboing characters in Brawl. Most of his moves, both on ground and in the air, come out fast and have decent to awesome knockback + damage. Falco is one of those characters you never want to be below or above.

Couple that with a recovery that is hard to punish,

Phantasm is easily one of the best horizontal recovery moves in the game (apart from perhaps MK, and at least equal to DK, Wario, Pit, Fox and R.O.B.). Once again, it's very hard to punish a well timed phantasm.

whether you use it in the air or on the ground,

Phantasm has SO much use on the ground. It interrupts your opponents flow completely and instantly transports you by half of final destination. A SH'd immediate phantasm spikes your opponent into the ground, bouncing them up for you to combo them. A phantasm from off the edge onto the stage can get a surprise spike on your opponent from any percentage (one of the reasons Falco can gimp so well). This particular part is what makes me think Falco is the best candidate for #7, since Zelda and Toon Link don't have much use for their recovery on land. Pikachu is hopeful for this since I suppose QAC counts, however that's not the recovery doing the damage, is it?

and you have a character that only very few would enjoy playing against.

Might explain his tournament placings, people are scared of fighting Falco players so they ignore them.

Most of this could refer to Pikachu or Toon Link as well (and Zelda I suppose), but I think Falco is the strongest bet.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I dont really see how Zelda fits that well, since their projectile game is aparrently what makes them hard to approach, Dins fire is slow as hell, and if you can avoid it while being close enough to Zelda...its a free hit. Her recover definitely does fit though, but not as well as Pikachu since she can still be outprioritized on return, whereas pikachu has a bajillion options from his quick attack cancel, both moves sweetspot about as well though, but I find quick attack to be much more useful in the air not as a recovery than Zeldas recovery.

Lucas would also fit, but his up b is really only a recovery when its used for pkt2, and its not nearly as good as either Zelda's or Pikachu's recovery, but its possible that the back room still considers it a recovery move even when its not used as such. Also the whole grabbing thing really does hurt his matchups a lot. While its not devastating, getting grabbed means a free tilt with a lot of characters, and a free smash with others, not to mention that with a number of characters you can pile on some damage before you get to the edge and Lucas can escape. Its just not a lot of fun for him, he can still be good, but I dont see how he can be top 10 material with his matchups.


I would say the best options by far are Pikachu and Toon Link. Toon link a bit stronger with the projectiles preventing an opponents approach side of things, and Pikachu by a landslide with the recovery. But dont forget that Thunder is still a projectile, even if it doesnt really originate from Pikachu himself, and it does do quite well at preventing an approach.

just a comment on the din's fire: it's slow, but it can be scary strong, and if the zelda against which you are playing can read you well, well then, she'll actually hit quite often with the beastly projectile.

 

[biohazard930]

As others have said, it has to be Falco. Phantasm is hard to punish anytime. His lasers are amazing, and his close range attacks are very quick and have little lag.

As Redgreenblue stated above, http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954 is in favor of Falco.

That same link puts Pikachu as "A Rank," albeit at the bottom. Pikachu seems to fit the description almost as well as Falco, yet I think Falco's projectile game beats Pikachu's. That, along with the tournament evidence, puts my guess with Falco.

Zelda seems like too much of a stretch. I haven't much experience with or against Zelda, but Din's Fire seems like a pretty weak projectile (when compared to, say, Falco's laser). Her recovery is good, though. People say she's better, but is she really thought to be "a strong competitor?" (I'm not entirely sure.) She fits the whole package, but it seems weaker than Falco or Pickachu to me.

DeDeDe has a very predictable recovery, and Pit's is stupid on the ground. Lucas's seems reasonably avoidable (and somewhat gimpable offstage.) Toon Link would be good, too (Better than Zelda, probably), but his recovery seems a bit punishable. Well, then again, his tether makes his recovery harder to gimp... That sudden thought brings him ahead of Pikachu for me (especially because of tournament placement), but I think I'm gonna stick with Falco.

 

[Kitamerby]

It's Zelda. Strong can be seen as both physically strong and strong as a character. Gender ambiguous terms are ambiguous. Zelda's almost IMPOSSIBLE to approach if they know what they're doing with Din's Fire, not as much as Falco, but thenagain, the link they've been using to support Falco really really REALLY favor's Zelda more, with Zelda being at the BOTTOM of the list, and Falco in the top quarter almost.

 

[redgreenblue]

It's Zelda. Strong can be seen as both physically strong and strong as a character. Gender ambiguous terms are ambiguous. Zelda's almost IMPOSSIBLE to approach if they know what they're doing with Din's Fire, not as much as Falco, but then again, the link they've been using to support Falco really really REALLY favor's Zelda more, with Zelda being at the BOTTOM of the list, and Falco in the top quarter almost.

Weren't all the hints for each week gender ambiguous? Regardless, of course Zelda is at the bottom of the tournament list. That would mean it should be her right? Except... remember that people weren't expecting her to place highly in tournaments... requirements say people expect her to place highly.

Do you expect her to place highly? Especially when she's up against characters like metaknight? Din's Fire is useless against him. He's far too small for really any project to gimp him, combined with his speed and aerial abilities make him a fearful character for a Zelda.

And once again, you MUST remember that the hint states the recovery cannot be punished, on ground or air. I suppose you could say that the inability to detect where the Zelda will reappear on stage could count as "hard to punish", but she was able to do that in the last game and I seem to remember punishing that quite easily. Now that I think about it, it wouldn't be that hard to punish it in Brawl either. Especially with moves like phantasm.

 

[AlexX]

The problem with Falco people seem to be forgetting is that Phantasm isn't his only form of recovery... in order to get any kind of vertical distance, he must use his up-B, which is far easier to gimp (and I somehow doubt the clue we were given would only apply to part of their recovery power rather than all of it).

 

[redgreenblue]

The problem with Falco people seem to be forgetting is that Phantasm isn't his only form of recovery... in order to get any kind of vertical distance, he must use his up-B, which is far easier to gimp (and I somehow doubt the clue we were given would only apply to part of their recovery power rather than all of it).

No, the problem is that people are forgetting that phantasm IS a recovery move. Most, if not all, of the discussion against Falco being the #7 is that Fire Bird is an awful move. Yes, it is! Gimped easily, hard to recover with from under a stage (especially on FD).

The thing is though, a good Falco player shouldn't ever be under the stage. Phantasm should comprise a good 75% of your recoveries, which can be quite unpredictable if you factor direction (right into the ledge, onto ground/into a character, or over a character) and distance (regular vs. various levels of canceling the move). If they [SBR] are talking about gimping recovery, surely they would take the recovering method preferred by the character's community as his standard. Unless you are trying to tell me Falco's main recovery is Fire Bird, I don't see much of a problem with his recovery in regards to the hint.

 

[AlexX]

The thing is though, a good Falco player shouldn't ever be under the stage. Phantasm should comprise a good 75% of your recoveries, which can be quite unpredictable if you factor direction (right into the ledge, onto ground/into a character, or over a character) and distance (regular vs. various levels of canceling the move). If they [SBR] are talking about gimping recovery, surely they would take the recovering method preferred by the character's community as his standard. Unless you are trying to tell me Falco's main recovery is Fire Bird, I don't see much of a problem with his recovery in regards to the hint.

But the problem there is... Well, I'll put it this way. Ike's Aether is a recovery move that is hard to gimp despite going almost entirely vertical, and because of that, most Ike players try to get in a position to use it over the much more easily interrupted Quick Draw. However, that doesn't change the fact his recovery to be pretty poor, even if his vertical recovery is hard to gimp.

I'm not saying Falco's is bad, but you can't disregard the fact Fire Bird is considerably easier to punish just because Phantasm is superior anytime the chance to use it comes up.

 

[BEES]

Nobody ever uses anything other than Phantasm to recover. End of debate.

It's Zelda anyway.

 

[Tetsuro]

I have to agree that this is Falco, yes Zelda has strong projectile game, but in my opinion it isn't as strong as Falco's. Din's Fire is also quite easy to avoid if you know what you're doing. I also don't think many people are expecting Zelda to place all too high, whereas many are expecting Falco to do rather well.

 

[MiraiGen]

You don't know where Zelda's going. And even when you do, the landing of Faore's Wind causes a fire burst.

Din's Fire is strong at close range, beastly at medium to long.

She's extremely floaty, and people have been praising how much she's been improved since Melee where her gender-ambiguous alter-ego used to rule.

Also, seriously, "Recovery" ballparks every recovery-style move. Falco's got one good one and one lousy one. Zelda has one fantastic recovery move.

It's gotta be the Princess.

 

[mirkdddlhppr]

I think this points to TL.

 

[Talvi]

Toon Link or Lucas

 

[C@sH Mooney]

Toon Link.

 

[DarkRenji]

This time its Toon Link...

 

[Inuashakent]

Ike or falco.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Weren't all the hints for each week gender ambiguous? Regardless, of course Zelda is at the bottom of the tournament list. That would mean it should be her right? Except... remember that people weren't expecting her to place highly in tournaments... requirements say people expect her to place highly.

Do you expect her to place highly? Especially when she's up against characters like metaknight? Din's Fire is useless against him. He's far too small for really any project to gimp him, combined with his speed and aerial abilities make him a fearful character for a Zelda.

And once again, you MUST remember that the hint states the recovery cannot be punished, on ground or air. I suppose you could say that the inability to detect where the Zelda will reappear on stage could count as "hard to punish", but she was able to do that in the last game and I seem to remember punishing that quite easily. Now that I think about it, it wouldn't be that hard to punish it in Brawl either. Especially with moves like phantasm.

get your facts straight before you post.

only n00bs think Zelda is anything lower than mid-to-upper high tier.

and, BTW zelda is one of MK's tougher matchups... in fact, the only top tier characters she has trouble with are G&W and Marth.

her farore's wind is now much harder to punish, tags dissapear when she does and she damages upon reappearing.

seriously, this post is a joke.

I'm not saying you HAVE to think that #7 is zelda (I'm personally more inclined to think it's pikachu), but, if your are going to try to shoot down people who think it IS zelda, then do so with facts instead of lies.

 

[ph00tbag]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954 is proof.

Sure, if you think B Rank is all that bad. Look for Lucas and Zelda. They are in the middle of C Rank. Both of them have fairly good recoveries, which are difficult to punish on an off the stage. In fact, Lucas' off stage recovery is among the best in the game. Both of them are very good up close. (Zelda's jab is amazing, and she has great smashes. Lucas has fast SH aerials and a dtilt that trips at any percent.) Din's fire is amazing if you didn't realize, and Nayru's love is a much better reflector than Falco's, which has a lot of cooldown. Then, Lucas has PSI Magnet, which doubles as an attack with very little lag, plus PK Thunder and PK Fire are almost impossible to approach against with their range.

I'd concede that it could be Zelda, but it's definitely not Falco. He's doing too well, and honestly, he's much easier to approach than Zelda or Lucas.

 

[redgreenblue]

get your facts straight before you post.

only n00bs think Zelda is anything lower than mid-to-upper high tier.

That's very mature of you. Not once did I say any thing about tiers. How about you get your facts straight before YOU post?

and, BTW zelda is one of MK's tougher matchups... in fact, the only top tier characters she has trouble with are G&W and Marth.

If you care to explain how it's a tough matchup for MK, I'd be glad to listen (as long as you don't try to insult me as you did with this post)

her farore's wind is now much harder to punish, tags dissapear when she does and she damages upon reappearing.

It still has extremely limited use on ground.

seriously, this post is a joke.

Insulting me is not a nice way to argue. My points are very valid and obviously you ignored them.

I'm not saying you HAVE to think that #7 is zelda (I'm personally more inclined to think it's pikachu), but, if your are going to try to shoot down people who think it IS zelda, then do so with facts instead of lies.

What lies? Zelda is an amazing character, I never said she wasn't. But I don't remember many people saying "Oh man, Zelda is SO going to be top tier" when Brawl came out. I remember people saying "She'll be high-mid tier or low-high tier".

Sure, if you think B Rank is all that bad. Look for Lucas and Zelda. They are in the middle of C Rank. Both of them have fairly good recoveries, which are difficult to punish on an off the stage. In fact, Lucas' off stage recovery is among the best in the game. Both of them are very good up close. (Zelda's jab is amazing, and she has great smashes. Lucas has fast SH aerials and a dtilt that trips at any percent.) Din's fire is amazing if you didn't realize, and Nayru's love is a much better reflector than Falco's, which has a lot of cooldown. Then, Lucas has PSI Magnet, which doubles as an attack with very little lag, plus PK Thunder and PK Fire are almost impossible to approach against with their range.

I'd concede that it could be Zelda, but it's definitely not Falco. He's doing too well, and honestly, he's much easier to approach than Zelda or Lucas.

B Rank is bad considering people were expecting him to be at least A rank. I suppose Lucas and Zelda are doing worse than originally thought, but they don't fit a lot of the criteria. Sure Zelda has a great projectile, but can be countered by SHDL. And Lucas' projectile? I mean it's okay at a close distance. But it's nowhere near as good as Din's Fire. His recovery is also easy to punish if you take too long to Thunder2 on stage into somebody.

I don't see how reflection moves have any relevance. Of course Zelda and Lucas have better projectile countering moves. But those were never mentioned in the hint.

You do make some valid points though.

 

[BEES]

Laughing at everyone voting for Toon Link and his 'amazing' recovery.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

That's very mature of you. Not once did I say any thing about tiers. How about you get your facts straight before YOU post?

placing highly inferrs tiers does it not? Or, if you meant placing high in tournies... isn't this predicted by tiers?

If you care to explain how it's a tough matchup for MK, I'd be glad to listen (as long as you don't try to insult me as you did with this post)

Well, she's got a few things going for her here:
-Din's fire forces the approach, not that MK has a bad appach, but zelda's beter on defense, so when she can force an apporach, she fares better... normally.
-Zelda's Usmash alone causes a LOT of problems for MK: it outpriotitizes pretty much all, if not all of his moves. It doesn't stop him from approaching on the ground, but it can completely punish any air-to-ground attack attempt made by MK as well as punishing shuttle loop.
-Zelda's attacks not only outprioritze, but also normally outrange MK, a lot of her attacks can rip him out of his mach tornado or other approaches.
-MK is a featherweight and zelda is a heavy hitter. it doesn't take to darn much from her to send MK realing
-any time he tries to glide, he's Din's fire fodder.

Now, don't get me wrong, if this matchup favours zelda, it's only very slightly because MK's speed pretty easily punishes any whif zelda makes (besides maybe Dsmash, nair, etc) but that alone isn't enough to counteract how much dominance zelda has in other facets of the match.

It still has extremely limited use on ground.

true, this is what makes me lean towards pikachu. Farore's wind isn't useless on the ground, but it is, as you said, extremely limited in use on the ground... but I gues the OP didn't say "usefull" he said "hard to punish" whih farore's can be unless you are forced to recover in front of someone

Insulting me is not a nice way to argue. My points are very valid and obviously you ignored them.

I'm sorry. forgive me, but it just gets me in a bad mood to hear people underrated zelda so badly. I know my belief that she's low top tier (or very high tier in my tier list since I separated snake and MK into their own) is maybe a little extreme, but there is absolutely no reason for zelda to be anything lower than mid-high tier.

What lies? Zelda is an amazing character, I never said she wasn't. But I don't remember many people saying "Oh man, Zelda is SO going to be top tier" when Brawl came out. I remember people saying "She'll be high-mid tier or low-high tier".

zelda boards thought she could be top... I know that's biased but still Din's fire was thought to be maybe the game's best projectile until it's range got figured out. Serious gamers tend to see zelda as a force to be reckoned with, the majority of the ... (how do I say scrubs without saying scrubs?) underrate her tremendously.

comments in blue.

 

[Finch]

Laughing at everyone voting for Toon Link and his 'amazing' recovery.

Toon link has pretty stupidly good recovery, especially with his bombs.

I really don't know why anyone would be saying zelda or dedede or lucas. Those three characters fit all of the descriptions except their recovery being good and hard to punish on the ground. I'm sure when you play zelda or dedede you Up B on the ground all the time, but if you were not ******** then you might play differently. The only characters who fit the description completely are falco and Toon Link, and TL's up can be kind of easy to punish on the ground so I'd say it's probably Falco.

 

[KonoK]

My guess is Toon Link, Lucas, or Pikachu

 

[1170]

There are several characters that could be in next week: Pit, Toon Link, Link, and Samus being the most likely.

 

[MiraiGen]

Toon Link stalls out so hard when he's doing his recovery up B anyway that it pretty much leaves him with bombjumping and Hookshot. Everything else is too easy to gimp.

In fact a quick ledgegrab could shut down his recovery too.

 

[ForteEscape]

My guess is Toon Link, Lucas, or Pikachu

My exact guesses.

 

[redgreenblue]

placing highly inferrs tiers does it not? Or, if you meant placing high in tournies... isn't this predicted by tiers?

Well I don't think it does at all, which is why I'm so confused at Falco's placing in tournament lists. Captain Falcon was one of the most played characters of melee, but he was mid tier wasn't he? If you want more proof, go take a look at Diddy Kong's (candidate for High to Top tier) tournament rankings.

Well, she's got a few things going for her here:
-Din's fire forces the approach, not that MK has a bad appach, but zelda's beter on defense, so when she can force an apporach, she fares better... normally.
-Zelda's Usmash alone causes a LOT of problems for MK: it outpriotitizes pretty much all, if not all of his moves. It doesn't stop him from approaching on the ground, but it can completely punish any air-to-ground attack attempt made by MK as well as punishing shuttle loop.
-Zelda's attacks not only outprioritze, but also normally outrange MK, a lot of her attacks can rip him out of his mach tornado or other approaches.
-MK is a featherweight and zelda is a heavy hitter. it doesn't take to darn much from her to send MK realing
-any time he tries to glide, he's Din's fire fodder.

Now, don't get me wrong, if this matchup favours zelda, it's only very slightly because MK's speed pretty easily punishes any whif zelda makes (besides maybe Dsmash, nair, etc) but that alone isn't enough to counteract how much dominance zelda has in other facets of the match.


Now that I read that, it seems you are right. Zelda is a great match against MK. But remember that tiers don't have a ton to do with match ups. My friend is at par with my Falco when he uses MK, but when I played him with my secondary (Donkey) today, I two stocked him.

true, this is what makes me lean towards pikachu. Farore's wind isn't useless on the ground, but it is, as you said, extremely limited in use on the ground... but I gues the OP didn't say "usefull" he said "hard to punish" whih farore's can be unless you are forced to recover in front of someone

I suppose. I personally would find it hard to NOT punish a Zelda using her Farore's Wind on anywhere other than FD and like... Bridge of Eldin .

I'm sorry. forgive me, but it just gets me in a bad mood to hear people underrated zelda so badly. I know my belief that she's low top tier (or very high tier in my tier list since I separated snake and MK into their own) is maybe a little extreme, but there is absolutely no reason for zelda to be anything lower than mid-high tier.

Thank you for being nice. I guess she could be high tier, but I feel top is a stretch. More metagame development for her is needed, I think.

zelda boards thought she could be top... I know that's biased but still Din's fire was thought to be maybe the game's best projectile until it's range got figured out. Serious gamers tend to see zelda as a force to be reckoned with, the majority of the ... (how do I say scrubs without saying scrubs?) underrate her tremendously.

I face the same ordeal when I play as DK, so I understand where you're coming from. I don't think she's the best in the game, however. Just really good.

response in light blue

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

response in light blue

accepted, though to your last comment, at least DK is starting to gain recognition.

 

[manhunter098]

Its not Zelda, if you can avoid Dins fire on your approach or if you have a fast character...Zelda even using Din's Fire just invites punishment.

I was thinking Toon Link as a possible behind Pikachu, but I took a closer look at his recovery when its used on the ground and its really not all that great. If you miss, then its time to get punished.


Ive pretty much narrowed down the two that I think it is to Pikachu being the most likely, because NOTHING says their special needs to even do damage on the ground, but QAC into a rising n-air...is just a great tech and next to impossible to punish, and Falco, who I think still falls behind because QAC is just amazing...and quick attack used to recover has great horizontal and vertical possibilities, not to mention you can put some variation into your path of travel to make sure your opponent has even less of a chance to intercept you. Plus you can QAC on the edge of some stages and then quick attack again to recover, meaning you pretty much have so many options, your opponent is going to have to guess what you are going to do to recover.


Something to note about the Phantasm as well...its predictable, if you use it to recover...you HAVE to use it at or above the level of the edge.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Its not Zelda, if you can avoid Dins fire on your approach or if you have a fast character...Zelda even using Din's Fire just invites punishment.

I was thinking Toon Link as a possible behind Pikachu, but I took a closer look at his recovery when its used on the ground and its really not all that great. If you miss, then its time to get punished.


Ive pretty much narrowed down the two that I think it is to Pikachu being the most likely, because NOTHING says their special needs to even do damage on the ground, but QAC into a rising n-air...is just a great tech and next to impossible to punish, and Falco, who I think still falls behind because QAC is just amazing...and quick attack used to recover has great horizontal and vertical possibilities, not to mention you can put some variation into your path of travel to make sure your opponent has even less of a chance to intercept you. Plus you can QAC on the edge of some stages and then quick attack again to recover, meaning you pretty much have so many options, your opponent is going to have to guess what you are going to do to recover.


Something to note about the Phantasm as well...its predictable, if you use it to recover...you HAVE to use it at or above the level of the edge.

1. Zelda loves watching you approach, it's a big part of her game....defense
2.agree on pikachu, but i wish his hint is cooler (idk how, but it should be more awesome-talking about his thunder and thunderbolt)

Well I don't think it does at all, which is why I'm so confused at Falco's placing in tournament lists. Captain Falcon was one of the most played characters of melee, but he was mid tier wasn't he? If you want more proof, go take a look at Diddy Kong's (candidate for High to Top tier) tournament rankings.

The tier list is all about how well the top players do, thus it's based off of tournament placings....

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Tier_list
"A tier list is a ranking of each character's metagame, based on tournament settings. It is an indicator of how each character is expected to perform, under tournament settings"

 

[barnes]

i think it is either zelda or pikachu

 

[manhunter098]

I suppose Zelda does have some good defense at close range with all of her disjointed high priority hitboxes. But I still see her getting punished easily by faster characters when trying to force an approach with Din's Fire. Pikachu has Thunder and Thunder Jolt. The first pretty much makes a wall which forces the opponent to stop their approach, especially if you use it with some backwards momentum, plus Pikachu recovers pretty quickly after the Thunder strikes now, so you can pretty much fire a Thunder Jolt right after and then sit back to see what they do. Then spamming Thunder Jolts is about as effective at disrupting your opponent as Falco's laser and makes approach rather annoying for your opponent, plus you can hit them with it from the air for a bit of knockback if thats what you want.

I just see Pikachu's camping game as a bit more versatile than Zelda's which cant really be adapted as well for faster characters and its a bit more predictable.

 

[biohazard930]

Something to note about the Phantasm as well...its predictable, if you use it to recover...you HAVE to use it at or above the level of the edge.

I'm no expert, but couldn't you mix up Falco's Phantasm recovery with a Firebird to the ledge if you thought an opponent was becoming wary? And how punishable is the Phantasm in the middle of the move? If it's not, then to punish it, the opponent would need to be farther from the edge, giving Falco the time needed to safely Firebird.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I've lightning kicked a phantasm once, and in melee, I once got a kill by jiggly resting the middle of a phantasm once....BTW I know it's hard to punish... I just thought I mention this for fun

 

[itsthebigfoot]

zelda's up is very punishable when used as recovery, it has a long start up time and, when combined with her slow fall speed, gives the other player a big opportunity to punish unless they land directly on the stage or on the ledge, which usually won't happen if they are coming from below the stage

EDIT: Falcos up b is the easy move in the game behind ganons utilt to punish, seriously, you can punish it mid move because it has no priority and it was not talking about phantasm, which is a sideb. not falco