Smash 64 Speed running Discussion

[GhllieShdeKnife]

Just a reminder I'm the only person in this thread who has a console run in the top 5 on the twitch leader-board.

Real talk I have the fastest recorded speedrun of smash 64 with a time of 5:43.77 real time. I dont have a top 5 time on VH 1 Stock cause the category doesn't interest me. I have been involved in smash 64 speedrunning since last year and I can say that it's not just about random luck to get a fast run, you also need very good execution and reaction. The fact you need LSD in order to do RTA attempts honestly makes any of your opinions on the matter less respectable in my mind.
If your referring to the srl leaderboards lolololololol, those are only from races and dont include any RTA attempts.

 

[Cobrevolution]

the only run worth doing is very hard 1 stock wtf is wrong with you guys

and in my theorycrafting mind - random luck plays one hell of a part in 1p mode. i can kill link in like 5 seconds. sometimes fox just dashes towards me and upbs off the stage, sometimes pika just upbs into the crevice. giant DK has fallen off and died in 4 seconds.

if you get hammers on multi-char stages, that's lucky as all hell. same with healing items.

 

[KnitePhox]

speedrunning is about dealing with RNG/AI or else it's fake, ROB-E

 

[Cobrevolution]

so the dude who gets time shaved off for RNG hammerpwns gets the record over the dude who doesn't use items

damn

 

[AthensHorseParty]

Right okay dude... Im really impressed by a time you got in a totally different category.

And no I'm talking about SRL you dumb****s there was a spread sheet sent to me by pikashy on twitch listing the PBs of all the runners on there in the VH 1 stock category. You realize the reason you think "luck doesn't matter" is because there are fewer items on the lower difficulties and a more beneficial assortment of items spawns.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...4bnFrRk1pSTZzYWgwNHdwSnc&usp=drive_web#gid=18

This is pretty up to date although my run hasn't been added. But as you can see the only other verified console runs with a better time than mine were by pikashy, xatmamune, and dkr_paddy. Not that there aren't probably more now. I'm not saying that I'm the best in the world or anything, just that I'm the only person here who even has a video of a sub-9 VH 1 stock.

Racing is an entirely different matter though because of the luck factor it's true, but I'm comparing PBs achieved over literally thousands of attempts.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

That's exactly why I like 5 stock very easy, there are substantially less random elements and actual optimization can occur. My PB run has less than 20 seconds of optimization that is even possible with TAS and I believe about 5-10 seconds possible when you assume perfect execution and amazing but not perfect luck. With the 1 stock very easy categories little actual optimization can occur and anyone can come in with no knowledge and get their run and claim WR and wave their **** around to show everyone else how big it is and how good they are at smash 64. The point of a speedrun is to go fast, not impose limitations that make it substantially harder to go fast so you can brag about how good at the game you are. I am perfectly aware that im not amazing at this game in any technical or competitive sense but I have the fastest speedrun and that's all that matters from a speedrunning perspective(disclaimer: the smash 64 speedrunning community has not come to a decision on IQue legality and until a decision is reached Pikashy still technically has overall fastest time with his US-N64 kirby 5 stock very easy time of 5:43.98).

 

[KeroKeroppi]

Real talk I have the fastest recorded speedrun of smash 64 with a time of 5:43.77 real time. I dont have a top 5 time on VH 1 Stock cause the category doesn't interest me. I have been involved in smash 64 speedrunning since last year and I can say that it's not just about random luck to get a fast run, you also need very good execution and reaction. The fact you need LSD in order to do RTA attempts honestly makes any of your opinions on the matter less respectable in my mind.
If your referring to the srl leaderboards lolololololol, those are only from races and dont include any RTA attempts.

lmaooooo your gamer tag ****ing sucks ahaahaha

 

[AthensHorseParty]

Also hammers kill off the top so they can actually cost as much time as they save.

 

[AthensHorseParty]

That's exactly why I like 5 stock very easy, because I'm a giant *****

I get the point already you don't have to keep telling me over and over!

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

the record you are referring to was actually counting ingame time only, we no longer use ingame time because of the extra real time it takes to calculate the bonus after each stage. my dk run is the fastest run real time. Also that document was produced originally by Dkr_paddy and predates the leaderboards I posted, the only reason it is outdated is cause noone is submitting.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

I got on this thread again to encourage people to submit to that leaderboard so it could replace that document and we can build a community around speedrunning this game.
edit: Kero if you mean GhillieShdeKnife ya it's really bad, If you mean GhillieGuide it's not great but it is the name I chose and I have grown to like it

 

[Cobrevolution]

if speedrunning consists of very hard 1 stock then sure go for it

anything else is weak and should be ignored on principle

 

[AthensHorseParty]

Well why did you think a good way to do that would be by ****-talking me even though I have a record in a way harder category that you've never even attempted? I mean the only reason I'm ****ing with you is that I think it's hilarious that somebody who competes in such a wimpier category is trying to wave their **** at me while complaining about how VH makes it into a **** waving contest. Or something. Lol

 

[AthensHorseParty]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFs1glw2Nj0 Wow look how hype it is when the enemies walk back and forth in place and DK casually strolls over and throws them off the level. The optimization is so real.

 

[Cobrevolution]

so i just did a very easy 5 stock

yeah don't even try to make that the standard, it was ******** simple. most of the opponents didn't even try to upb back on stage.

i then did very hard 1 stock

****ing giant dk wrecks me every time

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

I resent being called a ***** just cause I actually want a speedrun of this game where viewers cant pick out 10-15 second portions that could be improved. I have no illusions about being good at this game(for ****s sakes I play DK) but I have done over 5000 attempts at my category and have gone to a lot of effort to promote the speedrunning of this game. I have run comparisons, and bought many different versions of the game in an attempt to figure out differences for speedrunning. I found the fastest system and completed the fastest speedrun and I am going to push to beat that time over the next couple months.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

The run is very easy to complete, and doesn't show that I have more skill than others. The difficulty lies in the ability to analyze every possible option and calculate the most reliable fast option. Its easy to complete a run but try getting sub 6 minutes and you will soon realize how hard it is to optimize the category. I obviously insulted you(not even directly) but you have insulted me multiple times in this discussion. Obviously most people find my DK 5 stock VE runs either boring or showing a lack of skill but I find it painful to watch even the fastest VH 1 stock runs due to the improvement that is possible. Part of the challenge of doing an RTA on a category like 5 stock very easy is being able to keep your attention over such a long, repetitive process. I attribute my mindset around speedrunning to my specific developmental differences from the neurotypical population.

 

[AthensHorseParty]

Yeah but just to reiterate, you're the one who "called me out" while admitting that 1) you suck at the game and 2) you play the easiest ****ing category. Your only point is that "speed runs should be about going fast." Okay, sonic the hedge hog that's not gonna stop me from making fun of you for being such a tool.

 

[AthensHorseParty]

Think about this, dude: if you tried a VH 1 stock run the way you play you probably couldn't even complete it without a game over, playing the way you do. Whereas I could easily press up-B at the top of the stage or just cargo throw everyone off with DK if there's just walking back and forth not doing anything. If we ever played on console I could destroy your DK and I'm sure if I raced you on Very Easy 5 stock you'd barely beat me by a few seconds if you even won. The optimal strategy is so ****ing trivial to execute, who cares if you improve it by 5 - 10 seconds or not?

 

[Shears]

The fact you need LSD in order to do RTA attempts honestly makes any of your opinions on the matter less respectable in my mind.

You've never dropped acid then. You haven't truly seen something unless you've seen it under the influence of LSD.

 

[caneut]

so i just did a very easy 5 stock

yeah don't even try to make that the standard, it was ******** simple. most of the opponents didn't even try to upb back on stage.

i then did very hard 1 stock

****ing giant dk wrecks me every time

rob talking **** about things he doesnt understand yet again

 

[Cobrevolution]

translation cane is a punk

 

[Battlecow]

Bullllll ****. If you want a WR record run it really is a matter of luck because you will almost invariably wanna use an aerial with set knock back and end up taking several trades. It's all item luck. If you get a maxim tomato or heart at the right time you can take like 20 seconds off that stage. I feel like the thing you don't realize until you're competing for an RTA is that there's a huge difference between playing "safe" and playing fast. Getting a "no-damage" on polygons would not be an optimal way to do the speed run. You have to just go for broke and have the patience to eat the resets over and over and over again or you're not getting a good time.

Just a reminder I'm the only person in this thread who has a console run in the top 5 on the twitch leader-board. (Which I did before I even knew about z-cancels. God help you all if I can get my hands on some more LSD)

Aiight I've never tried to speedrun before, but I really doubt that "going for broke" and getting hit a lot is faster than just doing smart stuff and not getting hit, flying around takes a long time

I also really doubt that top 5 on whatever is hard if you can do it without z cancelling

You could be totally right though, because again, I have never tried it.

 

[caneut]

translation cane is a punk

that may be, but you still have no idea about what makes a category of speedrunning in a game good, and you continue to flap your mouth.

 

[Cobrevolution]

I'm still correct.

 

[AthensHorseParty]

Aiight I've never tried to speedrun before, but I really doubt that "going for broke" and getting hit a lot is faster than just doing smart stuff and not getting hit, flying around takes a long time

I also really doubt that top 5 on whatever is hard if you can do it without z cancelling

You could be totally right though, because again, I have never tried it.

Yeah well I mean I never got a sub 8 so there's that. I don't really see how your logic makes sense though. When players are being defensive does it generally take them longer to beat their opponent than if they're playing aggressively? Multiply that by 30 for polygon team, 20 for yoshis and 8 for kirby. You are right about "flying around" though, at a certain percentage you have to stop taking trades unless you can get a healing item. E.G. there is a "random" aspect to it that if you get more healing items on polygons you can get a better time. Q.E.D.

http://www.twitch.tv/xatmamune/c/3844909
This is the first ever sub 7 run with kirby. Look at his polygon team fight. You know as good as I do that kirby's up air is a garbage move that you would never normally approach with over and over and over but it has set knock back and with the scaled up knock back on polygon team it kills in one hit every time, off the side which is extremely important as I mentioned before. If he hadn't gotten that tomato and heart there would be know way he'd have such a good time.

 

[AthensHorseParty]

90% of a normal speed run z-cancelling makes not a bit of difference, but on the yoshi, kirby, and polygon stages its super important. If you looked at the spits for my sub - 9, I beat Giant DK earlier than he does because I used a skip that he had never seen before. But he still makes up the time on polygons easily because I didn't know about z-cancelling.

 

[The Star King]

An interesting argument.

 

[Sedda]

I'm still correct.

sup stud

 

[Cobrevolution]

why bother doing something on easy mode to prove you can do it fast? That's like draw one solitaire. Ty.

 

[Battlecow]

Yeah well I mean I never got a sub 8 so there's that. I don't really see how your logic makes sense though. When players are being defensive does it generally take them longer to beat their opponent than if they're playing aggressively? Multiply that by 30 for polygon team, 20 for yoshis and 8 for kirby. You are right about "flying around" though, at a certain percentage you have to stop taking trades unless you can get a healing item. E.G. there is a "random" aspect to it that if you get more healing items on polygons you can get a better time. Q.E.D.

http://www.twitch.tv/xatmamune/c/3844909
This is the first ever sub 7 run with kirby. Look at his polygon team fight. You know as good as I do that kirby's up air is a garbage move that you would never normally approach with over and over and over but it has set knock back and with the scaled up knock back on polygon team it kills in one hit every time, off the side which is extremely important as I mentioned before. If he hadn't gotten that tomato and heart there would be know way he'd have such a good time.

I mean OK but if you don't get hit you don't need to run around and grab healing items in the first place

The "defensive" strategy isn't that defensive, just a little more ledge play.

and obv. you need set KB moves, GL trying to get through polygons with grabs

 

[Mr Bushido]

sup battlecow

 

[The Star King]

why bother doing something on easy mode to prove you can do it fast? That's like draw one solitaire. Ty.

Speedruns aren't "to prove you can do it fast" - for many people they're to compete. A game (or mode of a game in this game) can be easy to clear but difficult and interesting to optimize a speedrun for or to best others at. I don't know anything about SSB speedrunning so I don't know if this is the case for this game specifically, but yeah.

tbh cane is right you don't know what you're talking about

 

[Cobrevolution]

considering how different the Ai is on the different modes, just look at athens' post. There's no reason to devise an optimal strategy to beat stationary opponents in low risk environments.

further, if you think it's interesting to optimize a speedrun for an extremely easy mode, then you might think it's even more interesting to do it on the hard modes. Which obviously takes much more skill.

I've done my fair share of running levels asap un time trials and whatnot, and I stand by my statement: doing something easy quickly is wack.

 

[AthensHorseParty]

The competition in VH 1 stock was pretty fierce earlier this year. When I got my first sub 9 I was only a few weeks away from having the world record. And shortly after that Xatmamune got the first sub 7. I think Pikashy has a newer run now that beats his by a certain amount of seconds

I mean OK but if you don't get hit you don't need to run around and grab healing items in the first place

The "defensive" strategy isn't that defensive, just a little more ledge play.

and obv. you need set KB moves, GL trying to get through polygons with grabs

I'm sure you are way better than me in 1 on 1 but I promise you, it's better to just take trades. It's not just an issue of being safe or not getting hit, it's also about forcing the AI into a situation where it's response doesn't matter. If you pause for even a few frames to try to bait an AI polygon into an attack, not only do you have to multiply that delay by all 30 polygons but you're not considering that the "tree" of options that the three simultaneous AIs can engage in grows exponentially every frame that they are on the map and you're not forcing them into a situation where their response doesn't matter.

That's why jumping in with random up-airs always saves so much time. Because A) even if it answers with a move fast enough to make you trade it still gets the KB and flies off the screen. This means effectively that it is a "forced" play in game theory terms. The other consideration is B) the longer you sit there doing nothing trying to bait the situation where you have a forced safe option the less in control you are of what the other AIs do. They could potentially randomly move to a position where they are separation you from a really dangerous item like a bomb or hammer or fire flower. Also you have to move around the map so much anyway "running around to grab an item" is not really an issue. Either way they time you gain back from being able to do another 10 trades makes it way more worth it.

Also most of the levels are so "forced" already that playing it safe is irrelevant. My strats on Link, Fox, Giant DK, Pikachu, and Metal Mario are set up so that they each take a few seconds and happen basically the same way every time unless you **** something up (which I did a lot). The ones with more characters on the map at once -- Mario Bros, Yoshi's, Kirby, and Polygon Team are way more dependent on good RNG. Master Hand is too to an extent because he can randomly pick moves where he flies off the screen for a long time being unable to take damage.

So yes, RNG is a huge factor in getting a good RTA. That's not to say it doesn't take skill or execution at all, which it obviously does, but once you try grinding for an RTA you'd have to be insane not to realize how much totally random factors can influence a run.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

lmao does anybody even read these long ass posts

 

[AthensHorseParty]

I got **** to say about game theory, son. Deal with it.

 

[AthensHorseParty]

And either way nothing about this dude's argument makes sense. LttP is so broken by the Exploration Glitch that you can beat it in under an hour but people still compete in the glitchless category. Wtf. Putting "arbitrary boundaries" that "just make you go slower" can have really cool benefits sometimes, like the fact that a VH 1 stock run is way more impressive and fun to watch than somebody throwing around mindless dummies for 5 minutes.

 

[Combo Blaze]

And no I'm talking about SRL you dumb****s there was a spread sheet sent to me by pikashy on twitch listing the PBs of all the runners on there in the VH 1 stock category.

lol spreadsheet. Use this: http://www.speedrun.com/ssb64 I was just confused because I've never heard of a twitch leader board, only SDA, SRL, and recently speedrun.com. Also various game specific sites.

speedrunning is about dealing with RNG/AI or else it's fake, ROB-E

RNG dependent games are ****. Watching werster run pokemon is pree fun tho

@very easy vs very hard argument
Some games have the option to play in easy mode but most of the time they play in normal mode I believe. I see nothing wrong with having VE/N/VH categories though. But if you want to argue about a standard, then it should be Normal which is the default setting.

@Rob
Speed running is about optimization. Most games people speedrun can be completed very easily but the challenge comes from optimizing, RNG/AI manipulation, and plenty of other stuff.

 

[Morin0]

Rob was last seen:
Aug 26, 2002