Smash 64 Makes A New Tier List After 4 Years

[Cobrevolution]

I didn't say the rest of her kit was bad. I said it wasn't enough to compensate for the areas where bair isn't her best option, at least not to the degree better characters have better options.

If you're capable of talking about the game, then why did your initial post detract me as an "outsider," with no real knowledge of how long I've played the game or how many matches I've won or lost, or analyzed in depth? True, I may have missed some huge shift in perception of some move's ability to cover options. But by and large, Samus has the same main weakness she's always had, in every smash game--full coverage requires over-extension on hard reads in several key areas, and I don't see how that can have changed too much.

you act like dair and fair aren't good spacing tools...or being able to start tech chases with jabs.

the reason i called you an outsider is because you 1) made an obviously ignorant comment and 2) have no recognizable name to me. you clearly aren't a member of the 64 community and don't participate in 64 events in your area, and if you do, your area must be very bare because i'm fairly knowledgeable about who's who where.

why is it such a far off conclusion for me to draw, that you're not anyone notable? and my ability to talk about the game has nothing to do with that. i could give you a lot of information on matchups, if you want. or you could watch my matches and see what i'm talking about.

"every smash game" doesn't mean anything. the only thing that matters about samus and this conversation is how she performs in this game. yes, you need hard reads. yes, you need good spacing. no, you don't need to over extend. no, you don't only have bair as an option.

just don't talk about the game if you aren't up to date on its meta. simple.

 

[Champ Gold]

People being underrating Samus in almost any game, home girl is great in right hands and her setup can be pretty damaging


Also, I still see Luigi is useless like before

 

[PhantomShab]

luigi does suck, but you're showing your ignorance if you were to simply imply that smash 4 is somehow more balanced that 64.

lol

I never implied anything.

lol

 

[ph00tbag]

1) made an obviously ignorant comment

Hyperbole is something I do a lot. It doesn't mean I'm ignorant. The original statement was exaggerated as a joke, but it does reflect a firm belief that Samus's tools just don't cohere in the way other characters' do.

I'm not saying any of the moves you bring up don't have the properties you say they do. In most cases, you'll probably find me agreeing, in fact. I just think you overstate their relative strength in the greater context.

 

[Saikyoshi]

64 Ness: the steady decline from third-best to third-worst, in the same game that hasn't received and cannot receive any balance changes whatsoever.

 

[AllysonWonderland]

Lastly, a game so balanced and dug out should NOT need a tier list (hypocritical statement, I know), but only because of the two aforementioned things I said about it being balanced and dug out. Anyone can win tournaments now.


Not hypocritical! I don't know too much about 64, but if it's so balanced, I don't see why (besides the anomalies you mentioned) a tier list is necessary. How great are the differences between any two characters anyhow?

 

[Sedda]

Lastly, a game so balanced and dug out should NOT need a tier list (hypocritical statement, I know), but only because of the two aforementioned things I said about it being balanced and dug out. Anyone can win tournaments now.


Not hypocritical! I don't know too much about 64, but if it's so balanced, I don't see why (besides the anomalies you mentioned) a tier list is necessary. How great are the differences between any two characters anyhow?

Smash 64 is pretty balanced, but it would be very silly to deny that some matchups are way tougher than others and that some characters simply have better properties (in the context of this game) that helps them excel in a bunch of different situations.

From my point of view, I think that an amazing fighting game would never be truly balanced because of character variety, but some matchups at most should be like 60:40. ssb64 doesnt even have that. You have Luigi who imo has a negative matchups against most of the cast and Pikachu has no negative matchups (imo fairly even with Falcon on DL).

 

[DrizzyDrew]

id say kirby is the better character...how is pika better? Kirby has a gret recovery, quick smashes, really good down air...cant see pika matching that

 

[Zad]

64 4 Lyfe!

 

[Cobrevolution]

id say kirby is the better character...how is pika better? Kirby has a gret recovery, quick smashes, really good down air...cant see pika matching that

pika's recovery is miles better than kirby's. "quick smashes" don't really mean anything. pika's two primarily used smash attacks are usmash and fsmash - the former of which is stupid strong and the latter being extremely disjointed.

kirby's dair is good, but if you're pulling dumb stuff like trying to dair them from above the stage, they're just gonna DI, tech and punish.

pika's uair alone destroys the cast. utilt is a close second. kirby is weak if you air camp him, because he has no move that can cover those options.

pika has better matchups against the cast than kirby does (kirby only bests pika in falcon, yoshi, and ness) and lays the smackdown on kirby in the pika-kirby matchup.

 

[ZGE]

Kid my skill in the year 2000 was good enough to beat you many times over with my Dk, especially against that samus of yours. Unfortunately I stopped playing 64 when melee came out and other games came out, but the skill I had in 64 was more than I had in any other game I've ever played due to how much time I put into the game, I could pull up the games played from my old 64 game right now, which hasn't been touched since 2001, and you would be amazed. I put more time into that than I did melee, brawl, and smash 4 combined. I actually was very skilled with fox, pikachu, ness, and link as well (though my link was Nowhere near links since 2012, what isai showcased was amazing).

Just as a prerequisite, I know this wasn't directed anywhere near me, but I have to respond cause this is pretty funny.

I'm sorry but there's absolutely no way that the meta from 2000 or 2001 and your skill in that game could even come close to what we know today. We didn't know about several of the advanced tactics, character specific tactics, and I'm sure your DK, even if it was somehow on top of the meta of that time, wouldn't come close to beating many of the decent players of today. It's not a knock on your skill, it's just that the meta has advanced so much since then.

And if you have your DK videos, pull them up and let us see them. I'm sure we'd like to critique it.

And one more thing, when you call someone "kid" it only makes you look like an ass. I would suggest not doing it.

 

[NightmareSnake]

So I'm pretty out of it when it comes to the Smash 64 meta, so I feel the need to ask this. What makes Luigi so bad?

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Just as a prerequisite, I know this wasn't directed anywhere near me, but I have to respond cause this is pretty funny.

I'm sorry but there's absolutely no way that the meta from 2000 or 2001 and your skill in that game could even come close to what we know today. We didn't know about several of the advanced tactics, character specific tactics, and I'm sure your DK, even if it was somehow on top of the meta of that time, wouldn't come close to beating many of the decent players of today. It's not a knock on your skill, it's just that the meta has advanced so much since then.

And if you have your DK videos, pull them up and let us see them. I'm sure we'd like to critique it.

And one more thing, when you call someone "kid" it only makes you look like an ***. I would suggest not doing it.

as for calling people "kid" and being an ass, i don't give a damn and you should have figured that from the start.

As for the DK videos, my biggest regret is not having made any videos of that time in my smash life, I really, really regret it.

 

[THE_MAAFIA]

So I'm pretty out of it when it comes to the Smash 64 meta, so I feel the need to ask this. What makes Luigi so bad?

He's not bad at all, this isn't a melee tier list, or brawl list, this is 64, it's very neck and neck, I got 30th at apex with luigi and could've gotten higher, no one is bad at this game, I hope you understand better.
Every character is viable

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

So I'm pretty out of it when it comes to the Smash 64 meta, so I feel the need to ask this. What makes Luigi so bad?

Maafia plz.

If you want to know some further reasons, bad short hop for combos. bad approaches, low-ish priority, no real good matchups outside of Samus (and Jigglypuff arguably.) He's just lackluster.

Then again, the unviable characters in 64 are quite viable as maafia noted, there are good people of almost every character.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

It's not really the most balanced, but the most broken.

But everyone is broken different ways so it all balances out. :3

 

[Pikmin1211]

Jigglypuff Should be S tier...

She is our god...

completely unbiased opinion i swear

 

[PowerPuffPlayer]

completely unbiased opinion i swear

Your using an unbiased opinion to bash on my unbiased opinion.

 

[PK_Knee]

The first installment of the Smash Bros. series has a new community-voted tier list after four years of incredible metagame advancement.

The Smash 64 community has been growing steadily, seeing a surge in netplay tournaments (currently held weekly), console communities popping up all across the West, and its biggest (by number of pre-registrants) North American console tournament of all time in Apex 2015. The meta continues to change and advance, including some unprecedented and unexpected results like multiple Yoshis making Top 8 at Apex 2015.

The 2015 community tier list was announced here, applies only to Dream Land (being the game's only true neutral stage, as well as its only starter), and is as follows (from top to bottom):

| | | ​

Smash 64 is sometimes called the "most balanced" Smash game, with top players achieving phenomenal results with characters not considered very viable, such as Isai's Link and Jouske's Samus. Ironman matches (called "12 Character Battles", or "12CB") are extremely popular, and top players are able to play well as just about any character on the roster. The gap between top tiers and bottom tiers is still evident, though not quite as large as it is in Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4.

Accordingly, the tier list had not been given a whole lot of extensive thought in the way of community discussion in about four years. The previous tier list was created during a different stage of the game's meta (notably, a time when Hyrule Castle was still legal, which it has not been at major North American tournaments since before Apex 2014) and was considered by most to be quite outdated.

It's quite a jump for some characters -- Samus moved up from dead last to 8th, Jigglypuff moved up from 8th to 6th.

I wonder what kind of character results we can expect from the next upcoming major Smash 64 tournament, Smash of Ages? What will the tier list look like in another 4 years?

pidgezero_one is a Jigglypuff fanatic who is not at all unhappy with the character's improved position on the tier list. You can follow her on Twitter at @pidgezero_one.

How is Luigi under Samus, Samus is Floaty and isn't easy to control.

 

[Calandracas666]

I've heard many people say that Ness is broken op but so mechanically challenging that nobody can use his full potential. Whether this is true or not is up in the air and I haven't played at any tournaments against good players. Albeit he is pretty high on the Japanese teirs

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I've heard many people say that Ness is broken op but so mechanically challenging that nobody can use his full potential. Whether this is true or not is up in the air and I haven't played at any tournaments against good players. Albeit he is pretty high on the Japanese teirs

The Japanese version is hella different, Ness has more invincibility and kills way easier.

In terms of Ness in the US version, spoke by Jaime-HR a top level player (2nd best in Mexico):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJuwy2jqcIk#t=4m41s

 

[ZGE]

as for calling people "kid" and being an ***, i don't give a damn and you should have figured that from the start.

As for the DK videos, my biggest regret is not having made any videos of that time in my smash life, I really, really regret it.

Then why say you could pull up the games if you didn't record them, lol. If you don't have videos and have no recent tournament experience in 64, we have to assume you're all talk or just trolling. Either way, DK isn't anywhere near the top and he is justifiably placed in the bottom half where he should be.

 

[Deleted member]

Link can trump the bottom five since he has ranged attacks that outclass them by a longshot,

By a... Longshot :D

 

[Deleted member]

Glad my suspicions of Linguine being terrible and Jigglypuff being beautiful are correct. Shame about Ness, though; I used to do 2v1s with him back when I played this game (and won)...

 

[Radical Larry]

By a... Longshot :D

Donkey Kong apparently needs his Dongshot. > w >

 

[Liggli]

Most of the people who voted are notable players. The voting was not advertised and basically only 64 players knew about it. Cobrevolution even re-calculated based on the opinions of only 60 of the 86 voters and the list was almost exactly the same.

Then it wasn't a community voted list... not a Smash-community voted at least. If this is true, then I'll accept the list more. Experienced players discussing, that's what I'm interested in.

Yeah it's kinda pathetic that the people still playing the game are voting on a new list. We should totally let people that aren't in our community vote on a tier list. Anyone up for letting the LoL players vote instead?

That's still a community voted list... and even worse as it's the wrong community.

 

[NerdThomas3]

The Mario Brothers should be higher up. They're not awesome like they are in Melee, but still viable at the very least. Link should at least b higher up as well, but not by much. At least 8th. For Mario, 5th and for Luigi, 6th.

 

[Komotonoto]

So much cringe from this thread..

 

[Cobrevolution]

Then it wasn't a community voted list... not a Smash-community voted at least. If this is true, then I'll accept the list more. Experienced players discussing, that's what I'm interested in.


That's still a community voted list... and even worse as it's the wrong community.

why the **** would melee, brawl, pm and smash 4 players vote or have any right to vote on a tier list about a game they probably know nothing about

 

[Gnostechnician]

Why Luigi is Bottom?
I don't play the game, but I love watching it at high level (apex 215 was hype) can some one explain to me?

Floaty, awkward to control, most anything he can do Mario does much better.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

why the **** would melee, brawl, pm and smash 4 players vote or have any right to vote on a tier list about a game they probably know nothing about

I follow 64 but I don't really play it and I love that its not possible for someone like me to have my opinion considered for the shaping of the tier list. The current community s4 lists are total garbage since there's no quality control and anyone can say anything they want.

Not all opinions are created equal.

 

[lord narwhal]

There's no denying Luigi is awful in this game. But everything this list got right is just coincidental, like if you randomized the tiers, you'd expect a couple of them to be right.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Then it wasn't a community voted list... not a Smash-community voted at least. If this is true, then I'll accept the list more. Experienced players discussing, that's what I'm interested in.


That's still a community voted list... and even worse as it's the wrong community.

Melee's community tier list was also only voted on by 20 something experienced players. It's a community tier list. Melee community or 64 community.

 

[lord narwhal]

Melee's community tier list was also only voted on by 20 something experienced players. It's a community tier list. Melee community or 64 community.

Hold the phone, are you seriously going to compare a game with over 1000 unique entrants last Apex with 64, which had 188 (discounting DQs)?

I know you've learned about numbers and stuff so let's do what's known as a "proportion" using this as a reference point for the serious playerbase AND I'll even do you the courtesy of using Cobr's "filtered" list of 60 voters.

60 players voting on the tier list / 188 Apex 64 players ~= 1/3 of the community voting on the tier list. Compare this to Melee's 20/1037 = under 2% of their community. 31.9% compared to 1.9%.

Also factor in the point that Melee has a much higher level playerbase than 64, and that the average 64 player knows zero about the meta because it's not as exciting to keep up with as Melee, and you're left with "why did you think 20 players voting on a list for Melee is comparable to over 60 voting for 64's?"

The only implications of this tier list are what bad players think about matchups -- what you might think the tier list is when you're first starting 64. It did not warrant a SB post, and it did not warrant updating the smash wiki tier list page. It's completely fraudulent.

Let's ALSO consider the fact that the previous 64 tier list was voted on by ~8 people, all considered very high level. This is an entirely different category.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Hold the phone, are you seriously going to compare a game with over 1000 unique entrants last Apex with 64, which had 188 (discounting DQs)?

I know you've learned about numbers and stuff so let's do what's known as a "proportion" using this as a reference point for the serious playerbase AND I'll even do you the courtesy of using Cobr's "filtered" list of 60 voters.

60 players voting on the tier list / 188 Apex 64 players ~= 1/3 of the community voting on the tier list. Compare this to Melee's 20/1037 = under 2% of their community. 31.9% compared to 1.9%.

Also factor in the point that Melee has a much higher level playerbase than 64, and that the average 64 player knows zero about the meta because it's not as exciting to keep up with as Melee, and you're left with "why did you think 20 players voting on a list for Melee is comparable to over 60 voting for 64's?"

The only implications of this tier list are what bad players think about matchups -- what you might think the tier list is when you're first starting 64. It did not warrant a SB post, and it did not warrant updating the smash wiki tier list page. It's completely fraudulent.

Let's ALSO consider the fact that the previous 64 tier list was voted on by ~8 people, all considered very high level. This is an entirely different category.

You seem awfully upset over the definition of a community tier list

 

[TheLegendaryKRB]

IMO, should have Luigi above Link. Hell, Link should be last.

This is my list:
A:
1. Pikachu
2. Kirby
B:
3. Fox
4. Falcon
5. Mario
6. Jigglypuff
C:
7. Yoshi
8. Ness
9. DK
D:
10. Luigi
11. Samus
12. Link

 

[Liggli]

why the **** would melee, brawl, pm and smash 4 players vote or have any right to vote on a tier list about a game they probably know nothing about

Only experienced people knowing how to put together a Tierlist. People who knows all characters well and knows the matchups. People who can avoid bias and be completely neutral.

 

[Cobrevolution]

melee, brawl, pm, and smash 4 players who aren't invested in 64 aren't experienced in the game, don't know the characters well, and don't know the matchups.

 

[FennerGuy1992]

My tier list:

A (TOP TIER)


B (HIGH TIER)


C (MIDDLE TIER)


D (LOW TIER)