Smash 64 Makes A New Tier List After 4 Years

[Dylan_Tnga]

Smash 64 is the best smash game. I play melee more but deep down I kind of wish it was smash 64 lol.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Smash 64 is the best smash game. I play melee more but deep down I kind of wish it was smash 64 lol.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Please stop with these community voted tier lists.

A tier list should be built on advanced knowledge about each characters matchups. This isn't something everyone can do and will only result in biased and false information.

Wikipedia can run on this as it has basic facts and sources. Many people knows the capital of their country.

But when it comes to telling whether your favourite character is better/worse than others... especially when people pick some just because they're best at that character... there will be lots of bias going on.

Most of the people who voted are notable players. The voting was not advertised and basically only 64 players knew about it. Cobrevolution even re-calculated based on the opinions of only 60 of the 86 voters and the list was almost exactly the same.

 

[Sedda]

Hang on, Isai places 2nd using only Link at Apex 2012, and they didn't bother revising the Tier list then? Why'd they still drop Link a spot? I don't understand it.

Because that's not how tier lists work?

Isai got 2nd place at Apex 2012 when Hyrule was still legal and in a tournament where only another top player (superboomfan) was in attendance. Yes, Isai's link is really good and it's probably one of his best personal characters, but that doesn't make Link amazing.

Personally, I voted Link to be higher up this list (around where DK is), but in a DL only ruleset where it's very easy to kill him, it makes sense to keep him at a low placement.

Isai himself voted and placed link second to last. Although I think Isai would still be able to make top 8 with Link only at a DL only tournament, I really doubt he'd be able to win ESPECIALLY with Japanese players in attendance. Those guys are used to DL only and are also used to fighting a better version of Link.

 

[Sedda]

Please stop with these community voted tier lists.

A tier list should be built on advanced knowledge about each characters matchups. This isn't something everyone can do and will only result in biased and false information.

Wikipedia can run on this as it has basic facts and sources. Many people knows the capital of their country.

But when it comes to telling whether your favourite character is better/worse than others... especially when people pick some just because they're best at that character... there will be lots of bias going on.

Most of the voters were experienced players. We had two threads going; one for discussion and one for voting.

This wasn't a "choose your favorite chars" voting kinda thing. There was a lot of discussion going on. I'm probably one of the lowest Apex placings to have voted too (49th).

Don't assume that this is a joke list.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

You sb64 players Are committing a grave injustice to Dk, who should be ranked at least in the top 5. I've seen all the tech since I stopped playing in 2001 and I still can't believe a good Dk who doesn't strictly go for the combos hasn't taken anyone's number yet. You guys rank simply on ease of combo potential in addition to recoveries, and I think that is stupid. Then again I also think dream land being the only legal stage is dumb as ****, I don't know who you guys take as your authority on what stages should be legal or not.

 

[WinterShorts]

And he get wrecked by Mega Man, loses to Rosalina, Greninja, Sheik, LITTLE MAC, ROB, the Pits, and some more characters.

Broken? Far from it. He isn't even top 10.

I'm perfectly aware of Boss, False, J. Miller, and Mr CC's videos showing them kicking butts with Luigi. But you have to understand, the character got a few very glaring problems that holds him back, even when counting on how he is the best CQC character in the game. His MU spread isn't amazing. His mobility isn't good. His traction is the worst. His recovery is gimpable unless you master Jumpless Cyclone. Those three basically are walls that prevemts Luigi from being broken.

And by theway, if you want the best character in Smash 4, look for Sheik. But she isn't even broken, even with those ridiculous needles she has. Luigi has no such thing. How people even manage to think Luigi is broken I have no clue. HE ISN'T EVEN TOP TIER!

I'll take that as advice. Thank you!

 

[ZGE]

Interesting to see after 4 years. I definitely agree with top two, I still think Fox is better than Falcon because of the Falco lasers although Falcon's combo game is really wack. Definitely agree with Luigi at the bottom, and I'm not sure that Samus should be so high (being a Samus main myself, she can tech chase and space people out with bair along with bomb mixups and charge shots, and really that's about it). Puff moving up is a little surprising to me but I can't really argue with it. Overall I think it's a great list that more accurately depicts where the characters should be, just a few things I don't agree with (which everyone is going to say really).

And to whoever was saying DK should be top 4, absolutely not. He gets completely trashed by anyone with a decent projectile or speed, has a huge hurtbox, gets comboed super easily (more easily than the others), isn't terribly quick and his recovery is complete garbage. I've played many great DK's and I'd have to pretty much agree with his placement in this list.

 

[lord narwhal]

Most of the people who voted are notable players. The voting was not advertised and basically only 64 players knew about it. Cobrevolution even re-calculated based on the opinions of only 60 of the 86 voters and the list was almost exactly the same.

While I'm glad most of the people in this thread didn't get to vote, this is still a completely fraudulent list. You think anywhere near 60 people are qualified to vote on a tier list in this game? The "outdated" list was better than this one.

And don't go touting it as some "official" tier list update after 4 years when every scrub whose name has been on kaillera once or twice got to vote. The backroom didn't touch this one, and honestly, most of them are still the only ones qualified to talk about it. The amount of matchup and tournament experience required to actually have a credible opinion on the tier list eliminates the majority of the people in the community, not 20 people who have never played the game. Liggli was right on the money.

 

[BananaBolts]

Please stop with these community voted tier lists.

Yeah it's kinda pathetic that the people still playing the game are voting on a new list. We should totally let people that aren't in our community vote on a tier list. Anyone up for letting the LoL players vote instead?

The backroom didn't touch this one, and honestly, most of them are still the only ones qualified to talk about it.

I'm pretty sure the back room was disbanded, yo. We still had plenty of notable players vote on this list and we discussed it in the discussion thread and outside of it too. Don't act like we haven't talked about it at all. (still wish boom had given his opinion but w/e)

 

[M15t3R E]

This tier list better reflects my opinions as a long-time player and enthusiast of this game. The only thing I take issue with is Ness's placement...

 

[THE_MAAFIA]

This tier list better reflects my opinions as a long-time player and enthusiast of this game. The only thing I take issue with is Ness's placement...

Ness is actually really fun and awesome, waaaaay better than melee ness, go ahead and play him, be the best Ness in the world

 

[Cobrevolution]

I'm an original smasher, having put more time into smash 64 than probably anyone else on earth from 1999-2001, and I can tell you that any tier list that puts Dk towards the bottom of it is a terrible list. This is largely because ppl don't know how to utilize him properly. Dk is a top 4 character, period. (The fact that they put samus ahead of him is quite frankly embarrassing). The rest of the list looks decent enough except for samus, who should be last. I also don't think captain falcon is as good as the list indicates, I just think he's more popular .

you probably suck, no offense

You sb64 players Are committing a grave injustice to Dk, who should be ranked at least in the top 5. I've seen all the tech since I stopped playing in 2001 and I still can't believe a good Dk who doesn't strictly go for the combos hasn't taken anyone's number yet. You guys rank simply on ease of combo potential in addition to recoveries, and I think that is stupid. Then again I also think dream land being the only legal stage is dumb as ****, I don't know who you guys take as your authority on what stages should be legal or not.

yeah you definitely suck

 

[pidgezero_one]

While I'm glad most of the people in this thread didn't get to vote, this is still a completely fraudulent list. You think anywhere near 60 people are qualified to vote on a tier list in this game? The "outdated" list was better than this one.

And don't go touting it as some "official" tier list update after 4 years when every scrub whose name has been on kaillera once or twice got to vote. The backroom didn't touch this one, and honestly, most of them are still the only ones qualified to talk about it. The amount of matchup and tournament experience required to actually have a credible opinion on the tier list eliminates the majority of the people in the community, not 20 people who have never played the game. Liggli was right on the money.

It says community tier list, not "official tier list". When are you going to learn to check your sources dude

 

[ph00tbag]

prime example of an outsider's point of view

I think you mean "long-time Samus main who probably knows her strengths, and moreover her weaknesses far better than you."

But it's okay. I can see how you'd get the two confused.

 

[pidgezero_one]

I think you mean "long-time Samus main who probably knows her strengths, and moreover her weaknesses far better than you."

But it's okay. I can see how you'd get the two confused.

I don't think anyone in here knows more about samus than Cobr does.

Unless you're jouske on an alt >_>

 

[Cobrevolution]

I think you mean "long-time Samus main who probably knows her strengths, and moreover her weaknesses far better than you."

But it's okay. I can see how you'd get the two confused.

i
think
i
know
samus
a
bit
better
than
you
do
friend

 

[JUSTN]

More balanced than Smash 4..?
Yeah, no.

less characters, so inherently it will be more balanced

 

[lord narwhal]

It says community tier list, not "official tier list". When are you going to learn to check your sources dude

Then why call it the fourth tier list? Why update the smash wiki tier list page as if it's the new tier list? Where's the disclaimer that says, "this tier list means absolutely nothing"?

 

[Time/SpaceMage]

Ness near the bottom? That's a big change...

 

[pidgezero_one]

Then why call it the fourth tier list? Why update the smash wiki tier list page as if it's the new tier list? Where's the disclaimer that says, "this tier list means absolutely nothing"?

here's a better question that hopefully your emotional over-investment can help answer: where's the 64 backroom? Are you aware of the reasons why there isn't one anymore? You're essentially demanding that a new one be formed to create a tier list when the people you think should be the only ones voting on it don't even want to participate, because it would be better than "randoms who think Falcon is the best" (meanwhile you can see the data for yourself and count on one hand, or one closed fist, rather, how many people voted Falcon at #1). The old tier list was Hyrule meta, and the community wanted a new one after apex. That's why the discussion threads went on for so long and were so active. It's the best we can do in lieu of a backroom.

If you want an official tier list made up only of the opinions you think count, ive already provided the data and formulas, so go ahead and make it. Maybe hit up Xiivi with a proposition to reopen the backroom and see how far it gets?

 

[Radical Larry]

If any character is too far out it's a stock gone for them so that comparison is irrelevant. Yoshi is quite heavy so he is harder to throw as far away as most characters.
If you are using projectiles against Yoshi who is recovery then you let him recover free as Yoshi has such a high airspeed he can move around whatever projectiles you throw at him.

Link would like to have a word with you on that.
Boomerang slightly up, Bomb thrown, attack straight on. Covers all three sides. And even then, all characters have to do is time their attack right.

But not every character, when too far out, has a stock gone; Pikachu and Ness have chances of recovering, and so does DK and Jigglypuff. Too far DOWN is the better relevancy statement and argument.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

i
think
i
know
samus
a
bit
better
than
you
do
friend

You play samus about as well as he can be played, but that's still not good enough to get him out of bottom tier with luigi, sorry. And DK is far and away better than him, I don't care what you think. And if I have to I will go back to smash 64 to prove this if I have to, I've let this injustice go on for long enough. The way that isai plays Dk is not the only way to use him.

 

[BananaBolts]

You play samus about as well as he can be played, but that's still not good enough to get him out of bottom tier with luigi, sorry. And DK is far and away better than him, I don't care what you think. And if I have to I will go back to smash 64 to prove this if I have to, I've let this injustice go on for long enough. The way that isai plays Dk is not the only way to use him.

You realize that Samus is a female, right? I'm seriously doubting your smash expertise.

 

[Cobrevolution]

Link would like to have a word with you on that.
Boomerang slightly up, Bomb thrown, attack straight on. Covers all three sides. And even then, all characters have to do is time their attack right.

But not every character, when too far out, has a stock gone; Pikachu and Ness have chances of recovering, and so does DK and Jigglypuff. Too far DOWN is the better relevancy statement and argument.

ugh stop

yoshi's armor breaks at these percents. yoshi can just armor through the boomerang or bomb and avoid the fair/dair/upb altogether, such is his airspeed. and you have to take into account which part of the hitbox you're hitting with and whether or not it's stale. AAAAND if it BARELY breaks, yoshi can just DI and still grab the ledge where he can buffer parry on get up.

if a character is knocked far off stage without their second jump, the ease of edgeguarding them increases so much. pika suddenly can't go high and has to opt for the ledge or worse, the stage. and don't get me started on ness. DK as well is fairly easily edgeguarded since all you have to do is ledgehog or be above him, since his vertical is abysmal. jpuff isn't great either without a second jump, since her third is really good but the other two aren't.

look, it's pretty obvious you have little to no background of competitive smash experience, so it's best if you stop making yourself sound silly.

You play samus about as well as he can be played, but that's still not good enough to get him out of bottom tier with luigi, sorry. And DK is far and away better than him, I don't care what you think. And if I have to I will go back to smash 64 to prove this if I have to, I've let this injustice go on for long enough. The way that isai plays Dk is not the only way to use him.

i think dk is better than samus, but i also think you're probably bad at the game. i've played amazing DK's and think his placement is pretty good.

 

[Radical Larry]

ugh stop

yoshi's armor breaks at these percents. yoshi can just armor through the boomerang or bomb and avoid the fair/dair/upb altogether, such is his airspeed. and you have to take into account which part of the hitbox you're hitting with and whether or not it's stale. AAAAND if it BARELY breaks, yoshi can just DI and still grab the ledge where he can buffer parry on get up.

if a character is knocked far off stage without their second jump, the ease of edgeguarding them increases so much. pika suddenly can't go high and has to opt for the ledge or worse, the stage. and don't get me started on ness. DK as well is fairly easily edgeguarded since all you have to do is ledgehog or be above him, since his vertical is abysmal. jpuff isn't great either without a second jump, since her third is really good but the other two aren't.

look, it's pretty obvious you have little to no background of competitive smash experience, so it's best if you stop making yourself sound silly.


i think dk is better than samus, but i also think you're probably bad at the game. i've played amazing DK's and think his placement is pretty good.

Even if his armor breaks at those percents, take into account that if Link has enough time to pull a Bomb out, throw a Boomerang and then the Bomb, and then an attack that covers the middle, Yoshi's going to get hit and sent away. Even with his amazing air speed, remember that once the second jump has been read and countered, he's pretty much at a loss, even with DI. When Yoshi's hit, he's gimp food or gone.

Secondly, it's not primarily a matter of how far they are, it's a matter of how low the character is as well. A character like Link can be extremely far away, but if he's high enough, he can recover. However, factor in if he is too low now, he can't recover.

DK can be knocked far away from the stage and if he's still high enough, he can recover. Same with Puff, Pikachu and Ness. Read my post, because again, I said too far DOWN, meaning too far LOW. A character can be close to the Blast Line and still recover if they're high enough. They all literally have to be below the stage to be unable to recover.

 

[Cobrevolution]

Even if his armor breaks at those percents, take into account that if Link has enough time to pull a Bomb out, throw a Boomerang and then the Bomb, and then an attack that covers the middle, Yoshi's going to get hit and sent away. Even with his amazing air speed, remember that once the second jump has been read and countered, he's pretty much at a loss, even with DI. When Yoshi's hit, he's gimp food or gone.

he won't suffer knockback if the attack he's hit with isn't strong enough to break it (or if he does an attack and trades or if his armor runs out, which is 120 frames after the jump ends i THINK). what don't you understand?

Secondly, it's not primarily a matter of how far they are, it's a matter of how low the character is as well. A character like Link can be extremely far away, but if he's high enough, he can recover. However, factor in if he is too low now, he can't recover.

link recovering far and high is easy to edgeguard. link CLOSE and mid is a bit more difficult cuz of how disjointed upb is.

DK can be knocked far away from the stage and if he's still high enough, he can recover. Same with Puff, Pikachu and Ness. Read my post, because again, I said too far DOWN, meaning too far LOW. A character can be close to the Blast Line and still recover if they're high enough. They all literally have to be below the stage to be unable to recover.

high up with no second jump provides fewer mix ups and options. low is the worst, yeah, but ness high is easy too cuz of bad airspeed. dk high would mean you have to enter helpless, same with pika. fox's special fall is pretty sweet (apparently so is link's according to sk but let's be real). it all depends on your jumps and ability to mix your options up.

like i said, it's pretty apparent that your experience is close to nil. please don't theorycraft on things like recoveries when you don't know what you're talking about.

by the way, if link wants to edgeguard yoshi, he should be grabbing.[/quote]

 

[The Star King]

it's gotten to the point where i have to step in and say something

if you have not played 64 for extensive periods of time with other good players (playing every day in 2000 does not count), please refrain from saying things

Quoting because it seems the point was not driven home to this comment section.

aa has a way of always saying what's on my mind :3

I think you mean "long-time Samus main who probably knows her strengths, and moreover her weaknesses far better than you."

But it's okay. I can see how you'd get the two confused.

hahahahaha oh man this post is gold. I'm not sure what's better, that cobr is the one who should be saying this, or that ph00tbag not knowing who cobr is just reinforces the "outsider" point. This post just makes it all the more obvious that you aren't involved in the competitive 64 community outside of maybe a small local scene at best, sorry dude.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

ugh stop

yoshi's armor breaks at these percents. yoshi can just armor through the boomerang or bomb and avoid the fair/dair/upb altogether, such is his airspeed. and you have to take into account which part of the hitbox you're hitting with and whether or not it's stale. AAAAND if it BARELY breaks, yoshi can just DI and still grab the ledge where he can buffer parry on get up.

if a character is knocked far off stage without their second jump, the ease of edgeguarding them increases so much. pika suddenly can't go high and has to opt for the ledge or worse, the stage. and don't get me started on ness. DK as well is fairly easily edgeguarded since all you have to do is ledgehog or be above him, since his vertical is abysmal. jpuff isn't great either without a second jump, since her third is really good but the other two aren't.

look, it's pretty obvious you have little to no background of competitive smash experience, so it's best if you stop making yourself sound silly.


i think dk is better than samus, but i also think you're probably bad at the game. i've played amazing DK's and think his placement is pretty good.

Kid my skill in the year 2000 was good enough to beat you many times over with my Dk, especially against that samus of yours. Unfortunately I stopped playing 64 when melee came out and other games came out, but the skill I had in 64 was more than I had in any other game I've ever played due to how much time I put into the game, I could pull up the games played from my old 64 game right now, which hasn't been touched since 2001, and you would be amazed. I put more time into that than I did melee, brawl, and smash 4 combined. I actually was very skilled with fox, pikachu, ness, and link as well (though my link was Nowhere near links since 2012, what isai showcased was amazing).

 

[Radical Larry]

he won't suffer knockback if the attack he's hit with isn't strong enough to break it (or if he does an attack and trades or if his armor runs out, which is 120 frames after the jump ends i THINK). what don't you understand?

link recovering far and high is easy to edgeguard. link CLOSE and mid is a bit more difficult cuz of how disjointed upb is.


high up with no second jump provides fewer mix ups and options. low is the worst, yeah, but ness high is easy too cuz of bad airspeed. dk high would mean you have to enter helpless, same with pika. fox's special fall is pretty sweet (apparently so is link's according to sk but let's be real). it all depends on your jumps and ability to mix your options up.

like i said, it's pretty apparent that your experience is close to nil. please don't theorycraft on things like recoveries when you don't know what you're talking about.

by the way, if link wants to edgeguard yoshi, he should be grabbing.

[/quote]

Or using F-Smash, since it does have that incredible range.

 

[Sedda]

Can we all just take a moment to gawk at these 2 statements?

luigi does suck, but you're showing your ignorance if you were to simply imply that smash 4 is somehow more balanced that 64.

lol

 

[FooltheFlames]

Link used to be dead last with the very 1st 64 tier List, then Samus, and now Luigi huh?

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Combo potential with all the characters combined with the 64 engine not being fast at all allows all the characters a chance to win (unlike melee). I would argue that not only is 64 the most balanced smash game, it's also the more fun than smash 4 because of that combo potential. I made this argument a few weeks ago actually in another front page thread.

 

[Cobrevolution]

Kid my skill in the year 2000 was good enough to beat you many times over with my Dk, especially against that samus of yours. Unfortunately I stopped playing 64 when melee came out and other games came out, but the skill I had in 64 was more than I had in any other game I've ever played due to how much time I put into the game, I could pull up the games played from my old 64 game right now, which hasn't been touched since 2001, and you would be amazed. I put more time into that than I did melee, brawl, and smash 4 combined. I actually was very skilled with fox, pikachu, ness, and link as well (though my link was Nowhere near links since 2012, what isai showcased was amazing).

you wouldn't take a game off me.

 

[asianaussie]

cobr tis a valiant effort you're making, but i think you got baited

and larry is just not going to listen

 

[MarkT]

For everyone debating how "bad" samus is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYLOOLkmCV4

 

[Cobrevolution]

J samus is different from U samus

you might be right aa

 

[ph00tbag]

hahahahaha oh man this post is gold. I'm not sure what's better, that cobr is the one who should be saying this, or that ph00tbag not knowing who cobr is just reinforces the "outsider" point. This post just makes it all the more obvious that you aren't involved in the competitive 64 community outside of maybe a small local scene at best, sorry dude.

Not knowing who he is and not giving a damn are two different things. If he knows so much about the game, maybe he should talk about the game rather than brag about how many matches he's won.

Why do so many smashers think winning means you are universally more knowledgeable about the game? I may not have played this game competitvely in five years, but I don't forget options, and those don't change. Unless someone has discovered something truly groundbreaking about the character, I don't see how improvements in her placings aren't just caused by more smart players picking her up over less interesting, but better characters like DK.

 

[Cobrevolution]

Not knowing who he is and not giving a damn are two different things. If he knows so much about the game, maybe he should talk about the game rather than brag about how many matches he's won.

Why do so many smashers think winning means you are universally more knowledgeable about the game? I may not have played this game competitvely in five years, but I don't forget options, and those don't change. Unless someone has discovered something truly groundbreaking about the character, I don't see how improvements in her placings aren't just caused by more smart players picking her up over less interesting, but better characters like DK.

i've spoken about samus's options at length with people in the community. all you did was say her bair is good and the rest of her moveset sucks and that you know more about samus than me, lols.

achieving victories is usually a good indicator of character knowledge, matchup knowledge, and game knowledge. it shows that you have an understanding of what your character can reasonably do, what spacing is optimal, what percents combos will work at, how to approach the various other characters in the game, etc etc etc.

you think you know her options in situations, but i guarantee the most you're aware of is dair bair setups, not how to approach a kirby under the side platform, a ground-based pika, the best edgeguard against yoshi, the uses of her usmash, etcetcetc.

basically, it's not far fetched for me (or anyone else) to assume your knowledge of the game and the character is very limited because you're an unknown person whose track record in the competitive community is nonexistent.

 

[ph00tbag]

I didn't say the rest of her kit was bad. I said it wasn't enough to compensate for the areas where bair isn't her best option, at least not to the degree better characters have better options.

If you're capable of talking about the game, then why did your initial post detract me as an "outsider," with no real knowledge of how long I've played the game or how many matches I've won or lost, or analyzed in depth? True, I may have missed some huge shift in perception of some move's ability to cover options. But by and large, Samus has the same main weakness she's always had, in every smash game--full coverage requires over-extension on hard reads in several key areas, and I don't see how that can have changed too much.