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Social Smash 4 Social Topic 2.0

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Luigi#1

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So, as of the next future update of my mediocre, minimal redstone, Minecraft SSB map, this should be what the roster looks like:



Thoughts?Impressions? Serious Issues? My friends are horrible at feedback.
S.Gorah and Saki are disconfirmed though, and no transformations rules out Unova Trainer and Toon Zelda/Tetra. Meowth is also disconfirmed. When did you make this?
 

Mr. Mumbles

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@ Mr. Mumbles Mr. Mumbles , unrequited love
In fairness, you always take us to the strangest places on our dates.

Like here for example. What fresh **** is this?

Without moderators berating you for being off topic, how do you know you are loved? If people don't just keep making the same arguments over and over again, how are you supposed to remain current when you're too lazy to check?
 
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EmceeEspio

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S.Gorah and Saki are disconfirmed though, and no transformations rules out Unova Trainer and Toon Zelda/Tetra. Meowth is also disconfirmed. When did you make this?
Last summer. Also, I\this isn't supposed to be an SSB4 map, just a SSB map. I can put in characters that are disconfirmed for SSB4.
 

Substitution

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...Am I the only one here who actually took the time to get the maximum amount of play coins possible?
 

The Original Robot boy

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So folks i just finish The walking dead season 2 episode 3 by telltale and all i can say is
 
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It's a fair point, there will always be complaints. I'm thinking of trying to write out all the positives and negatives and maybe posting something, but I dunno if it's worth it to drudge up such discussion.
It's all on you. IMO there's nothing wrong with discussion.
If anything, this will be something that'll be debated long after Smash 4. It's better to have a general idea now to expect what we're in for instead of diving in headfirst.

Though now that I think about it, FD and competition will be a big thing in the minds of many people finding us now. Back in the days of PSASBR everyone always said fights that were serious business were done on PS2 so everyone just started fighting there no matter what since random internet fights and dignity were at stake.

Wouldn't it be crazy if there was a huge change in how new players came into the game? Instead of wanting lots stages like the past wanting less? I always thought it was crazy in PSASBR but seeing it here in Smash it's maybe possible... huh.
Well, it could be possible.
Mind you we're not only dealing with a different game but a different fanbase.
And while I'm not sure about how the PSABR fanbase is (as I've never played said game). I do think we aren't as bad. And hopefully are more accepting with this new game.
Heck, you've seen some like this yourself...

Not just Brawl, but stages in general. If you aren't a top player or run a huge tournament your opinion matters very little in such things which is rather annoying and unfair. Though being a dictator and saying FD only isn't much better either.If only democracy could work here somehow, but that was proven to not work as well in the past. There's no good option but to argue is there? :laugh:
If anything, we should either pick the lesser of the evils. Or maybe experiment with these.
Or, we could use a consensus...
 

LiteralGrill

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Well, it could be possible.
Mind you we're not only dealing with a different game but a different fanbase.
And while I'm not sure about how the PSABR fanbase is (as I've never played said game). I do think we aren't as bad. And hopefully are more accepting with this new game.
Heck, you've seen some like this yourself...
Oh yeah you guys aren't as bad! I'm thinking more along the lines of it will just by psychologically ingrained that FD is the serious business stage. If that's the case new folks coming in instead of wanting tons of variety might want less. It'd be really interesting.


If anything, we should either pick the lesser of the evils. Or maybe experiment with these.
Or, we could use a consensus...
A census taken at events was something I thought to work on along with collecting data. If the data taking couldn't happen, a census would be awesome.
 

Wario Bros.

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@ Wario Bros. Wario Bros.

Hey, just saw you online a few moments ago! Do you have any games that play online, BTW?
3DS or Wii U online? Listing both either way:

Wii U
Wii Sports Club (Only Bowling)
Dr. Luigi
Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed

Nintendo 3DS
Steel Diver: Sub Wars (Free Version)
Pokémon X
Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon
Kid Icarus: Uprising
Mario Kart 7
Tetris Axis
 

Knight Dude

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So does anyone have a favorite stage from each Smash game? I really liked Corneria in Melee and Delfino Plaza in Brawl alot. Melee's Final Destination was pretty badass too.
 

YoshiSonic

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Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon

Hey.

And in a serious note, Smash should take this style of online. Room systems for world wide would be organized, and streams all over twitch could be more managable for battling random followers/subscribers of theirs.
 
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Oh yeah you guys aren't as bad! I'm thinking more along the lines of it will just by psychologically ingrained that FD is the serious business stage. If that's the case new folks coming in instead of wanting tons of variety might want less. It'd be really interesting.
Well, to be fair.
Nintendo may think so, but we've thought otherwise.
And sure, FD is considered by many to be this, but we've also said there are other stages that work as well.
Referring to newer people. They'll most likely go in with the "FD only" mindset. Whether that's good thing or not I'm not sure yet.

A census taken at events was something I thought to work on along with collecting data. If the data taking couldn't happen, a census would be awesome.
Well, as long as we can include the community as a whole into the decision making process, I'm fine with any option really.
 

PsychoIncarnate

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So, basically Nihilist? Ah, good ol' Nietzche. Interesting philosophical positions but a bit of a wet blanket as a person.
It's not even that I WANT to be a nihilist

I haven't even studied anything about Nihilism
 

Ta1nted_4ngel29

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What do you consider 'wrong' then?

If 'Good' and 'Evil' are just concepts, then a murderer shouldn't be arrested for his crimes. After all, life is meaningless, so government and law is just hindering us.

No true moral code? Then why do the majority of humans agree with a set of laws... let's just use the Ten Commandments or Hammurabi's law as example.
There is no such thing as 'right' or 'wrong'. There is no such thing as 'good' or 'evil', but most people are plebeian to believe they do exist, therefore laws get made. Religions also use this to control their followers' actions and lives as well.

Basically, 'right'/'wrong', 'good'/'evil' don't exist, but the average person think's they do, therefore they let the very concepts govern their lives and thoughts.

And as for your question, I consider nothing is 'wrong'. I follow the philosophies of Frederick Nietzsche, Nicolo Machiavelli, and and Jean Paul Sartre. You should really look them up, especially Nietzsche. He believed that morality was a fiction used by the many inferior men to hold down the many superior men. Which is a summation of his "Master/Slave Morality"

Give his philosophies a look.
 

PsychoIncarnate

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There is no such thing as 'right' or 'wrong'. There is no such thing as 'good' or 'evil', but most people are plebeian to believe they do exist, therefore laws get made. Religions also use this to control their followers' actions and lives as well.

Basically, 'right'/'wrong', 'good'/'evil' don't exist, but the average person think's they do, therefore they let the very concepts govern their lives and thoughts.

And as for your question, I consider nothing is 'wrong'. I follow the philosophies of Frederick Nietzsche, Nicolo Machiavelli, and and Jean Paul Sartre. You should really look them up, especially Nietzsche. He believed that morality was a fiction used by the many inferior men to hold down the many superior men. Which is a summation of his "Master/Slave Morality"

Give his philosophies a look.
See, I don't get this "Superior Man" thing

What does it matter what people accomplish when they are all going to end up dead one day?

Who cares how better or worse the world is after you are gone.

The way I see everything, I'm already dead and no one really exists
 

Dr. James Rustles

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There is no such thing as 'right' or 'wrong'. There is no such thing as 'good' or 'evil', but most people are plebeian to believe they do exist, therefore laws get made. Religions also use this to control their followers' actions and lives as well.

Basically, 'right'/'wrong', 'good'/'evil' don't exist, but the average person think's they do, therefore they let the very concepts govern their lives and thoughts.

And as for your question, I consider nothing is 'wrong'. I follow the philosophies of Frederick Nietzsche, Nicolo Machiavelli, and and Jean Paul Sartre. You should really look them up, especially Nietzsche. He believed that morality was a fiction used by the many inferior men to hold down the many superior men. Which is a summation of his "Master/Slave Morality"

Give his philosophies a look.
And the Most Taken out of Context Wiki Link of the Year Award goes to...


Without moderators berating you for being off topic, how do you know you are loved? If people don't just keep making the same arguments over and over again, how are you supposed to remain current when you're too lazy to check?
I have no idea what you're even trying to say, and you are still making me feel bad!
 
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Ta1nted_4ngel29

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See, I don't get this "Superior Man" thing

What does it matter what people accomplish when they are all going to end up dead one day?

Who cares how better or worse the world is after you are gone.

The way I see everything, I'm already dead and no one really exists
Ah, you take it a step further with Nihilism.
 

Kamikazek

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Moving this to the discussion thread since it was way off topic in the daily pic thread.
Once again half the things you're disagreeing with me on or correcting me on are things we don't disagree on at all. I don't know if I'm not articulating my points well, you're misreading my posts, or both. Or if you're skimming them because I make them way too long.
The first four could be custom moves choices. Also, the Silver Arrow is not literally the Light Arrow. It's something that came later in the story and is likely just some similar-powered one.
I know they're different, hence why I listed them separately.
Technically speaking, choke slamming someone is fighting with your hands. Just saying.
You talking about the Windwaker cinematic? The one that I just mentioned specifically as an example of a time he fought with his hands?
Also, you think a burly man with tons of muscles can't kick or punch? Of course he can. That's logical.
Here you are directly agreeing with what I just said.
As I said, he's only in there because he's a clone and nothing more. That's word of Sakurai.
Again, it was never an option. He was never going to be more than a clone. Ever. That wasn't on the table..
Still not disagreeing with me. I know why Ganondorf got in and why he is a Captain Falcon clone. I was only addressing why a lot of fans want Ganondorf to have a sword, not anything at all about Sakurai or game development or why ganondorf is how is is or if he's likely to change or not.
He fights with magic, and only used a regular sword "once", and only because he was thrown in TP despite adding nothing of use to the real story. He shouldn't have ever been put in there, and other than having a fun fight at the end, it was a waste of time overall. Zant was the real villain and drove the story. But anyway.
Here I do disagree. I won't argue about who the main villain is just because that's an argument I'd rather not get into. But...
1. In video games there are main villains...and then there are final bosses. Even in games where the final boss clearly isn't the main villain the final boss is still a big deal, and some times people focus on the final boss or even an after game boss more than the actual villain.
2. Main villain or not, plot significant or not, just going off of my personal experience of people I talked to, Ganondorf upstaged the living hell out of Zant. As opposed to say Skyward sword where it was Giraham who upstaged the hell out of Demise.
3. In fact, about half the people I've talked to who played Twillight Princess said they thought the final battle with Ganondorf was the most memorable thing about the game(the other half say it was Midna with of course a few other opinions here and there). People were wanting a swordfight between Ganon and Link for as long as Ganondorf's been around, and for whatever reason a lot of people weren't satisfied with Windwaker's final duel.
4. Ganon was basically just being Ganon in Twilight Princess. He often(though not always) just sits behind the scenes and influences things indirectly up until the very end.
Also, that's not even from a real game or a real appearance. Tech demos are concepts. It was the only sword his OOT style had, so it was thrown in as a joke at best.
Again, I'm talking about things that influence fan opinions. Not things that influence design decisions or that are canon.
His TP version would require a complete overhaul of the character in order to use the sword, alienating the fanbase too much. He probably could've gotten a stance change, but he didn't.
Again we agree.
As noted before, stance changes are almost the same as transformations, it's highly unlikely he'll ever get his sword.
I wouldn't be too sure, I think stance changing sidesteps a lot of the possible problems involved in transformations characters. My theory is that the transformations are gone because of technical issues, which would be greatly lightened with a stance change that doesn't change the character model. You said in an earlier post you thought they were gone because Namco-Bandai were pushing for balance, and NB LOVE stance characters and balancing a stance character in a game where no one else has multiple stances has been done(Gen from Streetfighter for example, and yes I'm aware that's not a NB game), I don't think they'd be against it. Also stance characters flow much better than transformations and you can do more things with them.
To be honest, I don't even care.
Which is totally fair, but a lot of people do.
Not sure why they bother with the sword(s). They're nice and all but add little to the overall character. WW is the only time where it had any significance, and that's because it was two swords and it proved that despite looking like an overweight guy, he moved smoothly. It was just for cool points in TP at best, but added nothing otherwise.
Here I disagree again. For starters, Ganon's been long established as a weapon user (since Alttp) and the sword gave his Ganondorf form a weapon that suited him just as the trident suits his beast form(and I do think it suits his design and personality very well). Second, Ganondorf is one of those types of villains who's supposed to be intimidatingly good at everything, in that sense the more skills he shows(including swordsmanship) the better. Third, even if we ignore developments of the later released SS, in OoT Ganondorf get's his entire glorious kind of the world life ruined...by a swordsman. And the sword of evil's bane. He doesn't show it directly much in TP, but he's gotta be vengeful about that. From a midevil perspective it's not unreasonable for him to take on the primary skill of his greatest enemy nor is it unreasonable to want to best his reincarnation in a duel of swords. It let him have a real showdown with bane of his existence that's much more personal than defeating him with magic. Also just from a writing standpoint it's often good to have at least some commonalties between archememys. Well now Link and Gannondorf are both master swordsmen.
More importantly though it added a lot from a gameplay perspective. It's far from my favorite boss fight in Zelda and not quite my favorite final boss(I prefer fighting Ganon in WW), I think the four part conclusion of TP is the best designed boss fight in Zelda. First part-obligatory battle against magic with a pingpong of doom element. Second part-Fight against huge monster with puzzle elements and archery(they even snuck a use of the wolf form there). Third part-horseback riding and Link/Zelda tagteam. Four-Swordfighting (and fishing!). There you go, that's basically Zelda with in a nutshell, all that's missing is a fight use ever damn one of your items. Without the sword part it just wouldn't be complete.
...and people just like swordndorf a lot. And swordfights in general.
A double sword user is unique enough for me to want it. I don't care about a single sword. That's just not enough, imo.
An extremely heavy sword user that also uses magic and has several odd property projectiles like swordndorf could be would be pretty unique for smash, while still feeling like an opposite to Link(though it would end up a bit similar to Isaac I suppose...).
 

The Original Robot boy

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It's all on you. IMO there's nothing wrong with discussion.
If anything, this will be something that'll be debated long after Smash 4. It's better to have a general idea now to expect what we're in for instead of diving in headfirst.


Well, it could be possible.
Mind you we're not only dealing with a different game but a different fanbase.
And while I'm not sure about how the PSABR fanbase is (as I've never played said game). I do think we aren't as bad. And hopefully are more accepting with this new game.
Heck, you've seen some like this yourself...


If anything, we should either pick the lesser of the evils. Or maybe experiment with these.
Or, we could use a consensus...
Ok let me talk sh*t about PASBR for a min that game was baaaaaad the controls were clunky they kept changing too many things and even making the game either unbalance and unplayable character models lock up in game offline and online the updates don't do barely jack squat the single player is dumb and the stage selection is randomize on online play atleast in smash the most voted stage is chosen over lease voted one it's just buggy lazy smash clone and terrible choice of taking a title even sakurai abandon
 

MSmariosonic

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I'm surprised there are no muslims here...considering it's the 2nd most common religion.

My favorite stages from each Smash Game...
Final Destination, Final Destination and Final Destination.
 

PsychoIncarnate

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I can't help but feel like I'm already dead when there is an infinity of non existence in either direction of now

Especially when all my life I've been looking toward the future to better myself. I'm just looking a little more into the future and realizing it doesn't matter how better I am. Nothing is going to matter because everything might as well not exist.

I kind of feel like I've woken up from a dream that was my life.

I was always had a strong sense of morality in the past, and I had my faith to back me up.

I'm just not sure what I have now.

All I have is my existence, and I'm already counting myself as not existing since it's inevitable anyway
 

Swamp Sensei

Today is always the most enjoyable day!
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Basically, 'right'/'wrong', 'good'/'evil' don't exist, but the average person think's they do, therefore they let the very concepts govern their lives and thoughts.
Then it does exist.

If we allow these ideas of good and evil to control and dictate our lives, then they are real. We may have created those concepts but they exist. Good and Evil is very real.

Often relative, but real.
 
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I can't help but feel like I'm already dead when there is an infinity of non existence in either direction of now

Especially when all my life I've been looking toward the future to better myself. I'm just looking a little more into the future and realizing it doesn't matter how better I am. Nothing is going to matter because everything might as well not exist.

I kind of feel like I've woken up from a dream that was my life.

I was always had a strong sense of morality in the past, and I had my faith to back me up.

I'm just not sure what I have now.

All I have is my existence, and I'm already counting myself as not existing since it's inevitable anyway
Well, you do exist for a reason. It's not like you just came into existence for no reason.
IMO, you should cherish life. It isn't something you just want to throw away.
 
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PsychoIncarnate

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Well, you do exist for a reason. It's not like you just came into existence for no reason.
Honestly, you should cherish life. It isn't something you just want to throw away.
I worked hard all my life to prepare for the future and fight against my own depression and I don't have much to show for it
 

Cap'nChreest

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I worked hard all my life to prepare for the future and fight against my own depression and I don't have much to show for it
Try not to find your identity in your work. Thats what I do. Instead you could look toward Jesus *cues flame war.

But seriously... I could PM you some stuff if you'd like.

Whether anyone is rich or poor their value isn't in how much money they have or anything. Its simply being created in the image of God.

I guess this is just a window into a big debate about stuff that people really don't like to talk about.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Here I do disagree. I won't argue about who the main villain is just because that's an argument I'd rather not get into. But...
1. In video games there are main villains...and then there are final bosses. Even in games where the final boss clearly isn't the main villain the final boss is still a big deal, and some times people focus on the final boss or even an after game boss more than the actual villain.
2. Main villain or not, plot significant or not, just going off of my personal experience of people I talked to, Ganondorf upstaged the living hell out of Zant. As opposed to say Skyward sword where it was Giraham who upstaged the hell out of Demise.
3. In fact, about half the people I've talked to who played Twillight Princess said they thought the final battle with Ganondorf was the most memorable thing about the game(the other half say it was Midna with of course a few other opinions here and there). People were wanting a swordfight between Ganon and Link for as long as Ganondorf's been around, and for whatever reason a lot of people weren't satisfied with Windwaker's final duel.
4. Ganon was basically just being Ganon in Twilight Princess. He often(though not always) just sits behind the scenes and influences things indirectly up until the very end.
And regardless, he added nothing of interest to the game and was pointless overall beyond a fun boss fight. None of those convince me was a good idea to add to the plot itself. It'd be better if he had nothing to do with Zant at all, and randomly grabbed Zelda when her power was gone. Making him related to Zant cheapened him to a lame background guy. He didn't even have any real significance at all to the plot beyond "Zant got his power from him."

Also, does it matter what is most memorable? He was still not worthwhile overall as an important character in TP. Zant was. I hated Ganondorf's appearance in it from the start, and any role he had in the plot was fully stupid in my opinion. That's my final answer. If the Triforce had any real significance and physically existed(not just the power, but was the main part of the plot), I think he might've been interesting as an addition. But without it(being key to the plot), I see no reason for Ganon or Ganndorf to exist in the game. Note, that's also the stance of Aonuma. I just agree with it.

Again, I'm talking about things that influence fan opinions. Not things that influence design decisions or that are canon.
And Sakurai likely doesn't care about solely about fan opinions. We're talking about what could happen. I'm being realistic and know it wasn't going to be used in Melee, and for good reasons. I'm glad he got in in the first place.

I wouldn't be too sure, I think stance changing sidesteps a lot of the possible problems involved in transformations characters. My theory is that the transformations are gone because of technical issues, which would be greatly lightened with a stance change that doesn't change the character model. You said in an earlier post you thought they were gone because Namco-Bandai were pushing for balance, and NB LOVE stance characters and balancing a stance character in a game where no one else has multiple stances has been done(Gen from Streetfighter for example, and yes I'm aware that's not a NB game), I don't think they'd be against it. Also stance characters flow much better than transformations and you can do more things with them.
It's not whether NB likes it or not, it's whether Sakurai considers it equivalent to transformations. They are the same thing overall, just done differently, namely the action it takes to go into that new form/mode. Otherwise, identical in practice. Sheik is pretty much a different playstyle for Zelda(before 4), no different from a stance.

We don't know if he wanted transformations gone because he wants one main moveset per person. That's a very possible thing. I wouldn't put it past him either. It could be technical issues too, as Brawl showed.

Here I disagree again. For starters, Ganon's been long established as a weapon user (since Alttp) and the sword gave his Ganondorf form a weapon that suited him just as the trident suits his beast form(and I do think it suits his design and personality very well). Second, Ganondorf is one of those types of villains who's supposed to be intimidatingly good at everything, in that sense the more skills he shows(including swordsmanship) the better. Third, even if we ignore developments of the later released SS, in OoT Ganondorf get's his entire glorious kind of the world life ruined...by a swordsman. And the sword of evil's bane. He doesn't show it directly much in TP, but he's gotta be vengeful about that. From a midevil perspective it's not unreasonable for him to take on the primary skill of his greatest enemy nor is it unreasonable to want to best his reincarnation in a duel of swords. It let him have a real showdown with bane of his existence that's much more personal than defeating him with magic. Also just from a writing standpoint it's often good to have at least some commonalties between archememys. Well now Link and Gannondorf are both master swordsmen.
Ganon and Ganondorf are always separate entities in how they fight. Ganondorf is a human who was a pure magic user, but also could ride a horse. It wasn't till WW he could wield a weapon(he was likely trained in twin swords style in OOT due to being a Gerudo, but that was it). In TP, he used the sword he pulled out of him instead(I haven't played that fight in ages, so correct me if I'm wrong. No, Zelda Wiki didn't mention it, so...). To be clear, it's only likely he used the sword because it was there, he had no other. It was just convenient for him at that point. That said, Ganondorf existing doesn't mean he will use a weapon automatically. OOT proves that's not always in the plans. In fact, we see a knife sheath on him, his more likely weapon, but hey, thieves.

More importantly though it added a lot from a gameplay perspective. It's far from my favorite boss fight in Zelda and not quite my favorite final boss(I prefer fighting Ganon in WW), I think the four part conclusion of TP is the best designed boss fight in Zelda. First part-obligatory battle against magic with a pingpong of doom element. Second part-Fight against huge monster with puzzle elements and archery(they even snuck a use of the wolf form there). Third part-horseback riding and Link/Zelda tagteam. Four-Swordfighting (and fishing!). There you go, that's basically Zelda with in a nutshell, all that's missing is a fight use ever damn one of your items. Without the sword part it just wouldn't be complete.
...and people just like swordndorf a lot. And swordfights in general.
I'll take OOT over it any day. Anyway, the one thing to note about Ganondorf is he always starts off with some kind of magical move and the final fight has swords in it. The problem is? It's not Ganondorf always wielding the sword. This is why I can't really say the sword is integral to him like the Trident is often integral to Ganon(Only in the first game does he fight without one, but the NES likely couldn't handle the trident itself when the made it, or they never thought of it yet. His fight is somewhat similar to ALttP, where he shoots tons of fireballs at you while teleport spamming. They're still quite different, but a similar concept is there). For the most part, I've noticed his 2D Ganon fights tend to be ALttP clones to a degree. In 3D, Ganondorf always does something with magic, but not always a sword. And there's the kicker; The sword is not integral to him, magic is. First, let's note Ganondorf never officially wielded a sword in any game till WW, a game after Melee. It's obvious why he didn't get a sword, he never actually had one. The tech demo means little at this point. That was never a game overall. It was just a fun idea. It used the OOT Ganondorf model, so Sakurai threw it in as a bonus, to the point it was fully in the game and could be on his model. As in, the programming is there. Now, I would normally say "maybe he considered having the sword in", and that makes sense, but he made it clear in the Japanese website he ultimately found him fine as a clone overall and went with that. If not literally the main reason he was in(popularity was another).

Here's the problem with the Hijacked by Ganon situation; It only goes off well if Ganondorf acts like a mastermind. He was a mindless monster in TP, having enough mind to take control of Zelda's body. He had enough thought, but he never really did anything but act out of a blind rage at best. It was a pointless addition to me. If he really honestly acted way more like his OOT or WW self, I'd like him more. But he bored me to tears in TP. Again, the fight itself was fun, but his role in the story, to be frank, sucked.

An extremely heavy sword user that also uses magic and has several odd property projectiles like swordndorf could be would be pretty unique for smash, while still feeling like an opposite to Link(though it would end up a bit similar to Isaac I suppose...).
Or we could hand that over to a character like Isaac, who, while not strictly heavyweight, does everything else. I think he does the job way better and Ganondorf does the job perfectly of being the heavyweight magic user, something we don't have beyond him. More magic, and we're good.
 

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I worked hard all my life to prepare for the future and fight against my own depression and I don't have much to show for it
Perhaps, you should stop focusing on fighting the depression and just start doing what you want to do.
 
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