Smash 4 Evo 2015 Ruleset Updated: Customs On!

Pyr

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You're out of t

You're out of your mind. We needed to get a grasp of the way the game feels first and foremost. You're rushing and that's lame.
Look. It's been a few months since the WiiU release. That general feel? We copped a feel solid enough to let us know this game's bra size. And you know what? It's not to different from the other set of boobs we've grasped in the past. We can only feel so much. It's time for us to grasp at the layers and custom moves is just us unclipping the strap.

It's time to see Smash 4's boobs.
 
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Sixfortyfive

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You're out of your mind. We needed to get a grasp of the way the game feels first and foremost. You're rushing and that's lame.
Game's been out for months already. Some games in the EVO line-up aren't even out yet.

If people can't get a grasp on how customs work by the time EVO comes and goes, then that's on them.

I get the impression that the people who say that it's "too soon" for customs will ALWAYS say that it's too soon for customs until they're just flat-out forced to deal with them. Might as well do that now.
 
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TheLippyLapras

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Look. It's been a few months since the WiiU release. That general feel? We copped a feel solid enough to let us know this game's bra size. And you know what? It's not to different from the other set of boobs we've grasped in the past. We can only feel so much. It's time for us to grasp at the layers and custom moves is just us unclipping the strap.

It's time to see Smash 4's boobs.
My face contorted.
 

Illuvial

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You're right that Smash 4 is well balanced. Customs on further balances it.

There are NO broken customs. None.
That's the absolute funniest thing I have read all day

DK's wind mach punch says hello and goodbye to every stock you ever wanted in tourney

I think you guys are too focused on "there are no unbalanced moves" and should focus equally on "How does this affect viability"

Some characters like Donkey Kong become Top 5 characters with customs on, and some characters aren't benefited AT ALL from the inclusion

If in 2 years we can honestly say that the gap between low tier and top tier is smaller with customs on, then I'm totally fine with that. But as it stands now, the data we have generally points to the meta being extremely random and generally less balanced than a non-custom meta

This is dumb, this is not good

"Its gonna fix Diddy and Shiek"

I mean Diddy's main flaw is a bad recovery and customs give him a good recovery

Sheik's best tool is bouncing fish and it gets buffed with customs

Stop kidding yourselves

Do you guys honestly want a game where its like Marvel 3 and half the roster is completely broken and OP as all hell or would you rather have half a cast that's legit well balanced and the other half isn't far behind?
 
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Otacon

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Did anyone watch Shofu's video explaining just how bad these customs are.
 

Illuvial

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Can people who whine about "broken customs" please give us a list of broken customs instead of being lazy and bandwagoning on the "shut customs off entirely" deal?
DK Wind mach punch can kill from 75% screen without any skill or setup needed

Pikachu's heavy thunderbolt can kill at percents as low as 80% with little setup or skill

Sheik's needle buff CRUSHES shield in just 2 hits of needles and after getting hit once you can't use shield for a while or it will break

Lucario's slow moving aura ball actually makes his edgeguarding the dumbest thing on the fact of the planet

Lucario's force palm (side B) ends up becoming the best move in the game as its still fairly safe, slides, and still retains huge range from aura

Lucario's counter buff gives you the ability to combo counters into smash moves for massive damage and easy kills

Fox's Up B buff gives him the ability to kill at percents as low as 60% for free

Those are just the ones I know about and have, I don't even know what half of the customs in this game do
 

Fancy

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I feel like we need a better understanding of customs before we put them in a tournament as big as EVO. Not banning them forever, but at least see if there are customs that are broken, or if we can use a combination of customs to better balance the roster.
 

Otacon

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We need to put customs in locals, not majors.
There's no reason to put them in majors when that's when the game truly shines.
We need data first before we do anything with this, and the videos that are shown obviously show the bad parts of it.
 

Pyr

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DK Wind mach punch can kill from 75% screen without any skill or setup needed

Pikachu's heavy thunderbolt can kill at percents as low as 80% with little setup or skill

Sheik's needle buff CRUSHES shield in just 2 hits of needles and after getting hit once you can't use shield for a while or it will break

Lucario's slow moving aura ball actually makes his edgeguarding the dumbest thing on the fact of the planet

Lucario's force palm (side B) ends up becoming the best move in the game as its still fairly safe, slides, and still retains huge range from aura

Lucario's counter buff gives you the ability to combo counters into smash moves for massive damage and easy kills

Fox's Up B buff gives him the ability to kill at percents as low as 60% for free

Those are just the ones I know about and have, I don't even know what half of the customs in this game do
Alright. Take all this and go and win Evo.

Saying that it'll unbalance the game this bad is the same thing as saying it'll make it more balanced. We had a major without, and will have a major with. General consensus from people who've been using customs 100% of the time since the 3ds says that all those things you just mentioned? So minor they aren't even an after thought.

So, if customs break the game, go out and prove it like all of us who are proving they don't. Win tournaments on a single custom. Until then, stop theorycrafting and actually USE these new options.
 

Sixfortyfive

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DK Wind mach punch can kill from 75% screen without any skill or setup needed

Pikachu's heavy thunderbolt can kill at percents as low as 80% with little setup or skill

Sheik's needle buff CRUSHES shield in just 2 hits of needles and after getting hit once you can't use shield for a while or it will break

Lucario's slow moving aura ball actually makes his edgeguarding the dumbest thing on the fact of the planet

Lucario's force palm (side B) ends up becoming the best move in the game as its still fairly safe, slides, and still retains huge range from aura

Lucario's counter buff gives you the ability to combo counters into smash moves for massive damage and easy kills

Fox's Up B buff gives him the ability to kill at percents as low as 60% for free

Those are just the ones I know about and have, I don't even know what half of the customs in this game do
It's strange. You list all of these as if they're bad things, but all I can think is "look at all this cool **** to try out."

In any case, if you really want to prove that something is busted, now's your time to do it. Better use this upcoming month to get people to try the most ridiculous tournament builds you can think of.

Do you guys honestly want a game where its like Marvel 3 and half the roster is completely broken and OP as all hell or would you rather have half a cast that's legit well balanced and the other half isn't far behind?
Well, my main game is Marvel 3, so.... :V
 

T0MMY

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All the players keeping their game-breaking glitches a secret waiting for this moment are all very happy.
 

Illuvial

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It's strange. You list all of these as if they're bad things, but all I can think is "look at all this cool **** to try out."

In any case, if you really want to prove that something is busted, now's your time to do it. Better use this upcoming month to get people to try the most ridiculous tournament builds you can think of.


Well, my main game is Marvel 3, so.... :V
See this is the problem, instead of saying "Man that's broken or slightly unbalanced" people are saying "Well its broken sure but it looks cool"

I didn't realize we wanted broken hype over balance and consistency
 

Otacon

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All the players keeping their game-breaking glitches a secret waiting for this moment are all very happy.
Of course they are, and the worst part is nobody is going to do anything about this because currently all people care about is shutting down diddy and shiek.

As a Peach player Peach benefits from customs too, and it's actually bad that she does because she's already like 7th best, why make her top 3 because she gotta have an exploding turnip, it's just ridiculously dumb
 

Illuvial

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Alright. Take all this and go and win Evo.

Saying that it'll unbalance the game this bad is the same thing as saying it'll make it more balanced. We had a major without, and will have a major with. General consensus from people who've been using customs 100% of the time since the 3ds says that all those things you just mentioned? So minor they aren't even an after thought.

So, if customs break the game, go out and prove it like all of us who are proving they don't. Win tournaments on a single custom. Until then, stop theorycrafting and actually USE these new options.
You haven't proven and aren't proving anything about the balance of customs what are you talking about? Just because you play with customs online doesn't mean you're proving anything

You can't prove customs aren't broken and are more balanced without years iupon years of testing, find tuning, and meta evolution, just like I can't prove the opposite until the same circumstances are met

This is about things like what I listed being obviously more busted than core game mechanics, and about people valuing stupid hype over what we know works

The first EVO for Smash 4 isn't when we should be playing with fire. This is a bad idea for an early meta. This could end up making EVO the most laughably broken tournament in the history of EVO for crying out loud, and I'm not even joking when I say that.

The tournament could go well and in 2-3 years I eat my words as the Smash 4 backroom decides that customs are more balanced, but until then neither of us are right or wrong on this topic and the only thing that is 100% guaranteed is that the only thing customs do for EVO as of right now is RISK ruining the event

And I play with customs frequently I don't wanna hear you act like I don't know what I'm talking about.
 

Otacon

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I researched Peachs' customs and she does not have an exploding turnip however though she has the ability to put you to sleep with toad.

That's balanced though
 

Sixfortyfive

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You can't prove customs aren't broken and are more balanced without years iupon years of testing, find tuning, and meta evolution, just like I can't prove the opposite until the same circumstances are met
This isn't how it works. For most fighting games, you START with everything and only remove elements once they're proven to be a big problem. You don't begin with a stripped down game and then spend years justifying every little addition.

I mean, think about it. What's actually the best way to prove that something is "too good"? It's to actually use it and dominate with it with ease! If you want to make a case for banning custom moves, then you better be spending the next month putting together some real data. The burden of proof is on you.
 

Otacon

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No other fighting game bans characters, moves, or stages other than smash bros.

Other than game breaking glitches that every competitive game plays, no other fighting game allows glitches and has players remove elements.
 

Illuvial

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This isn't how it works. For most fighting games, you START with everything and only remove elements once they're proven to be a big problem. You don't begin with a stripped down game and then spend years justifying every little addition.

I mean, think about it. What's actually the best way to prove that something is "too good"? It's to actually use it and dominate with it with ease! If you want to make a case for banning custom moves, then you better be spending the next month putting together some real data. The burden of proof is on you.
You're right, lets put custom equipment and items on as well, and lets not ban any stages at all since we need to start with everything and those aforementioned mechanics were never implemented in the tournament scene :)

Personally I prefer stopping the fire from starting as opposed to pouring gasoline all over it after lighting the match myself
 
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Sixfortyfive

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If you're actually going to bring items and equipment into the discussion, then I'm just going to assume that you're not interested in making a real argument.

Again: Show your work. It's that simple. If you want to prove that customs are too good, then--at minimum--I want to see a custom character easily oust vanilla Diddy as "the problem." If you can't do at least that within a month, then I'm not interested in whatever else you have to say about this.
 
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MarioMeteor

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Finally. It's about time they opened their eyes. Maybe there's hope for them yet. Praying that Boss is there.
 

T0MMY

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All hope in Customs breathing some new life into Smash 4 when the meta matures for it went out the window with a ridiculously unprepared move. The big question is why did someone just go speak for the entire Smash Community without making an announcement and get an ok?
 

Otacon

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This one's simple: Just don't use your reflector.

Since EVO doesn't run team tournaments, it's not really an issue.
You know you can just ban customs and not limit the player to not using a certain move just because it causes a glitch that nintendo caused.
Honestly these are gonna do harm, and the game is so young why are you making it harder to blossom.
 

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I've seen others claim that custom moves make the game more balanced. However, I haven't seen many reasons for why that is the case. Besides, some characters considered to be the best still have great custom move choices, so it doesn't necessarily make the game more balanced. There is also the Mii Brawler who improves very significantly, perhaps even too much, because his custom move options are incredibly useful.
 
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lordvaati

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No other fighting game bans characters, moves, or stages other than smash bros.

Other than game breaking glitches that every competitive game plays, no other fighting game allows glitches and has players remove elements.
Characters: Street Fighter bans Boss characters(which is why Gouken, akuma and Seth were illegal in Vanilla Sf4, and Sagat was Soft Banned.)

Mortal Kombat bans console exclusive guest characters like Kratos.

Soul Calibur Bans characters tat are guests, bosses, and occasionally console exclusive. Yoda was banned for having a small Hitbox. Hilde, like MK, was banned for dominating a majority of the cast of Soul Calibur 4.

Blazblue had Kokonoe banned before she was patched to be more balanced.

Moves: Several fighters have rules stating that uses of specific Infinites are Banned, Most commonly the MvC series.
Street Fighter x Tekken had a well known ban on Gems.

Stages: Mortal Kombat bans certain stages for causing slowdown or intrusive elements.

Almost every major Fighter that has the option has all their matches take place in the Training Stage, as other levels usually have background elements that can be too dynamic and interfere in the actual fight. In fact, many have recently started raising concern nover the Wii-U Final Destination suffering from a similar problem.

Glitches:Marvel Vs. Capcom 2 had a genral rulelist of accepted Glitches in competitive Play, such as Double Mega Buster, Unfly exploits, etc. as long as they did not make the game unplayable. I fact the Juggernaut Powerup Glitch was used as a major character staple for teams using him as most famously done by Mike Z, creator of Skullgirls.



We are not so different, us and them.
 
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ansossy

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Ugh it's bad enough to have Lylat Cruise be starter (those ****ing stupid edges) and seeing Castle Siege being a counter-pick is even more stupid. It has walk offs on its second transformation and in between transformation and the second stage entirely ruins the stage as it gives overwhelming advantages to non-projectile dependent characters. Halberd and Delfino Plaza were also fairly annoying counter-picks. At least they didn't have Pokemon Stadium 2 as a counter-pick. Never really was a fan of customs, but I think it would be best to have it banned until it can be agreed on universal rulesets whether they're legal or not because this new olimar exploit could ruin some games and the fact that you have to learn 5 times more stuff just to get adjusted to custom moves is rather annoying and really removes a lot of unique traits about characters and they're not legal in online even Sakurai himself knew that some customs would be too powerful. Just look at marths gust neutral B that can literally push opponents extremely far or bowser's gust down b is overly op and since some characters like Little Mac could be changed to have an entirely strong recovery and you won't know until they use it will entirely ruin a lot of elements of the game. It might be best just to have them banned. It's best to test it in an experimental ruleset and gather opinions of the players before you actually put it in a big name tournament.
 

Sixfortyfive

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some misinformation
- Gouken and Seth were only banned in Japanese SF4 tournaments that adhered to arcade-legal characters. Those boss characters weren't playable in arcade, so console tournaments that matched arcade banned them. Banning Akuma or Sagat would have gotten your tournament laughed at. (And Americans did laugh at Japan for banning those other two characters in console tournaments, in any case.)

- Typically, the only combos/techniques that get banned in MvC are those used to stall for time infinitely (dead-body infinites), those that literally crash the game (Gambit freeze glitch), those that remove one player from the match entirely (Zero clone snapback glitch), or those that completely change the win condition ("dramatic battle" / double character control glitch). Nothing I know of has ever been banned in that series simply for being powerful alone (even infinite 100% death combos are legal), so the previous poster's remark about banning only "game-breaking" glitches is pretty much correct.

- SFxTK used gems in majors during its second year, including EVO. The reason for the change is because default gem loadouts were patched to be more accommodating for tournament logistics.
 
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ansossy

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Which would you consider banworthy? I certainly can't think of any...

And Items were banned because they were random, which customs aren't. I fail to see the relation, really...
Customs are random just like Items you won't know what you're facing against until it's too late.
 

Jaxas

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Customs are random just like Items you won't know what you're facing against until it's too late.
Wait what? Customs are displayed before your match, and they're only 4 moves with set effects (as in, not random) so it's not like you can't figure out what they do ahead of time just like with the normal moves.

Also, general question to anti-custom people:
How many customs are legitimately more 'OP' or 'abusive' than Monkey Flip, Bouncing Fish, Boost Kick, Gravitational Pull, and other really good customs in the default slots?
 

lordvaati

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- Gouken and Seth were only banned in Japanese SF4 tournaments that adhered to arcade-legal characters. Those boss characters weren't playable in arcade, so console tournaments that matched arcade banned them. Banning Akuma or Sagat would have gotten your tournament laughed at. (And Americans did laugh at Japan for banning those other two characters in console tournaments, in any case.)

- Typically, the only combos/techniques that get banned in MvC are those used to stall for time infinitely (dead-body infinites), those that literally crash the game (Gambit freeze glitch), those that remove one player from the match entirely (Zero clone snapback glitch), or those that completely change the win condition ("dramatic battle" / double character control glitch). Nothing I know of has ever been banned in that series simply for being powerful alone (even infinite 100% death combos are legal), so the previous poster's remark about banning only "game-breaking" glitches is pretty much correct.

- SFxTK used gems in majors during its second year, including EVO. The reason for the change is because default gem loadouts were patched to be more accommodating for tournament logistics.
kudos on the clearups. i mostly forgot to state that the SF4 Rules only applied to Vanilla, and were dropped once Super hit.

For a better example, I will turn to Super Turbo: Akuma is banned for
-having a convoluted method to access him
-being unable to be dizzied
-having a move(aerial Gouhadouken) that no other character can reliably adapt to

another character that is "banned" is classic Sagat/O.Sagat, who is done so for being universally agreed the best character behind Akuma.

for the boss example, Gill from 3rd Strike fits that criteria for his ban.
 

Sixfortyfive

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Pretty much. Intentionally overpowered boss characters are almost always banned.

O.Sagat is another one that varies by region. American tournaments traditionally allow counterpicking, so O.Sagat is allowed on the basis that you can just switch to a favorable match-up. Japanese tournaments are traditionally character-locked, so soft-bans on the upper tier (which also includes Vega/Claw IIRC) are more common there.
 

Aguki90

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We gonna see more variety. FINALLY.

I kinda Scared with Link and Olimar.
Link has really OP Arrows...
 

Jigglypwnz14

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Yes! I have wanted customs on in tournaments, I can't think of any reason why somebody would want them banned.
 
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