Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
>Barbie get's rekt by modshe is incompetent
Id rather actively discourage his presence
>Lolumad
1. If he did anything but shield (or maybe wd or dash back, considering he was walking forward) he would've gotten hit; this includes dashing. So I don't really see your point here, other than "Plup should've shielded because m2k's nair was already out."@ Litt Right.
@ 343 I really believe you have to question why you're wavedashing. I think a lot of times when you could wavedash (up close), a foxtrot could be just as good or a better option (no full dashing).
Take this match from Plup, first search result.
http://gfycat.com/BronzeDeliciousHamadryas#?speed=0.25
1. Trying to wd back instead of shield caused him to get hit by Sheik's nair - An instinct example, I'm pretty sure.
2. Wd-ing back from Sheik's shield was unnecessary spacing - would a dash back pivot grab have been a better option? Harder to pull off, but what does a wd back from shield really accomplish a lot of the time? Half the time you can just jab cancel pressure their shield (Falcon, Fox) and other times it's just as good of an option to stand there and wait to jab them if they move, isn't it?
3. Wd-ing to chase Sheik with a dsmash got him hit - wouldn't a dash+cc+fsmash have been a better choice, with better reach and less lag at the end, while covering the option of if Sheik tried to jump?
Reminds me of this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roGXwMN-LGg
Actually...1. If he did anything but shield (or maybe wd or dash back, considering he was walking forward) he would've gotten hit; this includes dashing. So I don't really see your point here, other than "Plup should've shielded because m2k's nair was already out."
2. Why was wavedashing back "unnecessary spacing"? In that position (i.e. in Sheik's shieldgrab range) what option is better than re-spacing yourself? Jabbing Sheik's shield will get you shieldgrabbed; even if Sheik lets go of shield, she just cc grabs your jab. This position is always a "try to guess when the opponent tries to act out of shield and use a not-jab move at that time," except they literally have enough time (see http://smashboards.com/threads/extennnduurrrrrr-samus-gen-disc.243160/page-159#post-18690693) to punish you in between your "pressure."
When you say "dash back pivot grab," that's still a spacing option; if you didn't think he needed to space, you'd say "why not just grab?" I do agree that it's better to dash back empty pivot to space instead of wavedashing, simply because it's faster, so I'll give you that, but I think in lieu of that, wavedash back ftilt / jab / utilt are the next fastest ways to re-space + put out a hitbox.
3. Just to be clear: I assume when you say "dash + cc + fsmash" you mean "dash -> run -> crouch -> fsmash." Again, if you look at http://smashboards.com/threads/ultimate-ground-movement-analysis-turbo-edition.392367/, a max length wavedash is just faster than Samus's run / dash. The dsmash vs fsmash has nothing to do with whether you're wavedashing or not; doing either of them on m2k's shield would've gotten him punished.
So yes, I agree that doing empty pivots is good for micro-spacing, but beyond that, I'm not convinced by your "anti-wavedash" arguments. (I'm guessing you're just trying to play devil's advocate, but I don't really agree with your points.)
Yep I'm with Barbie. This isn't really useful in this thread.@ 343 @ -Philip Coast Philip- neither of this **** is relevant to the topic, take it to the main samus discussion thread
Originally this is what I wrote,1.some wrong claim. I thought it was forward at first, but now it looks like it was an in-place or very slightly back wavedash. Still, I'm not sure what he was going for, but dash wouldn't have helped. I agree that maybe it was a twitch-reflex wavedash, but I think that was more of a macro decision-making error.
2. WD back ftilt could punish something like shieldgrab; in general, it at least puts you at a good spacing (not immediately punishable) while still being close enough to pressure. I would argue that the pressure does not "accomplish nothing at that spacing"; it gives you time to react to move-forward oos options, the threat of grab is still there, and you don't give up too much space. I would also argue that Plup's initial spacing was not at an "adequate range to respond," since Sheik could literally just shieldgrab right there.
3. You can't dash (no run) -> crouch. It's literally not possible to crouch out of dash. fsmash is also punishable if it his shield (albeit a bit harder to punish, especially if well-spaced). The bigger problem with fsmash is that in this position, Sheik is at 0%. She can simply cc the fsmash (or even just ASDI down, probably) and punish you for it even if it hits, while she can't punish your dsmash on hit.
Honestly it was just mean and unfair because I havent seen you play for quite some time so you may have improved and its not fair for me to judge you on who you were as a player, however the fact of the matter is you completely ignored what I posted asking you to bring your content to the general discussion and off my post, so you get a huge **** you... (those are asterisk and not an actual swear... so shove it mods) for just being a pretentious crap and feeling your small argument has precedent over my request to keep my post topic relevant. Now seriously bud move it along.Hey 343 I didn't want to call you out, but you were mediocre even in New England, so really bud no one cares... I asked you nicely to move it to general discussion, so now Im telling you to shut up and move it along. If you care this much about arguing with phillip, just private message him
What are you doing to keep the post relevant? You've yet to comment on how your tech has a a more optimal method. Instead you get throw around your ego.....your small argument has precedent over my request to keep my post topic relevant.
I am keeping this post on topic from people that try and derail it with their own egos or incompetence, incompetence being you and egos being 343. I can throw around mine, because I have the player ability to back up what I say... derpWhat are you doing to keep the post relevant? You've yet to comment on how your tech has a a more optimal method. Instead you get throw around your ego..
You weren't useful in this thread at all though. I tested this tech way more than you did I feel like and I was right from the very beginning. You really need to bring a valid point that challenges what has been discovered before you flaunt your ego. Otherwise you come off as "incompetent".I am keeping this post on topic from people that try and derail it with their own egos or incompetence, incompetence being you and egos being 343. I can throw around mine, because I have the player ability to back up what I say... derp
Useful at all? I created it... I explained the implications this tech has and its caveats... in the post you didn't read because it told you to sodd off and that you are incompetent. I brought the majority of valid points, and your points didn't challenge anything you just thought you were right from the beginning and thought people had to prove you wrong, thats not the way **** works here... you were wrong and we just told you to shut up and go away because you weren't contributing or understanding...You weren't useful in this thread at all though. I tested this tech way more than you did I feel like and I was right from the very beginning. You really need to bring a valid point that challenges what has been discovered before you flaunt your ego. Otherwise you come off as "incompetent".
Who's we? Once again Barbie you have proved yourself to be an emotional wreck. There's PAGES of you complaining about stuff that is so irrelevant. I wasn't ever really wrong either lol. Criticizing and IDEA or "tech" is how answers are found. I never took a shot at you..(Well ok I did say "lolumad" but that was after the fact). YOU ARE STILL STRAYING FROM MY MAIN POINT! What are the benefits to this tech other than the mixup? Are you "competent" to answer that question without getting all egotistical? Seriously, just answer the question in a logical, formal manner. I'm not here to tell you off. I just want to know if this tech is worth anyone's time.you were wrong and we just told you to shut up and go away
You can also JC grab both directions out of turnaround as well as JC bomb. The grab is especially hilarious because you can face one way and grab the other. It's also prolly valuable to consider sh nair out of turnaround as well.i would instead think about the time you want to stay suspended in run turnaround, and use the time to react to what your opponent does, either will wd forward, wd back, up-b or dash attack. dash attack is kinda goofy as it has set velocity, so no matter how slow you are running, it will push you forward like normal.
Agreed. Bad options become good options when your opponent doesn't consider them. Samus seems to have a plethora of bad options, and that's partially why she is so fun.The mix-up potential should be seldom used but its still valuable to consider these.
At the very least, turnaround encourages different options from your opponent eg they can/are likely to choose a cc-able option if they choose to attempt a punish. Compared to crouching out of run where your opponent would do the opposite. It's not the biggest deal, but its valuable to control your opponent's options.I just want to know if this tech is worth anyone's time.
lol sorry, I didn't see your post until after I posted (since it took me a while to write that post)I am keeping this post on topic from people that try and derail it with their own egos or incompetence, incompetence being you and egos being 343. I can throw around mine, because I have the player ability to back up what I say... derp
Refer to post where I completely insulted you down to your core, the logic of the usefulness of the tech is all in that post.Who's we? Once again Barbie you have proved yourself to be an emotional wreck. There's PAGES of you complaining about stuff that is so irrelevant. I wasn't ever really wrong either lol. Criticizing and IDEA or "tech" is how answers are found. I never took a shot at you..(Well ok I did say "lolumad" but that was after the fact). YOU ARE STILL STRAYING FROM MY MAIN POINT! What are the benefits to this tech other than the mixup? Are you "competent" to answer that question without getting all egotistical? Seriously, just answer the question in a logical, formal manner. I'm not here to tell you off. I just want to know if this tech is worth anyone's time.
Which one? You did that several times and I never bothered to read any of them and I still consider them pointless to read. You get more flies with honey.Refer to post where I completely insulted you down to your core, the logic of the usefulness of the tech is all in that post.
First of lets not abbreviate this as SLWD. abbreviating slingshot would be SS right? So SSWD? Doesn't ACTUALLY matter but that's been bothering me lol.bomb out of turnaround would look hilarious
At the very least, turnaround encourages different options from your opponent eg they can/are likely to choose a cc-able option if they choose to attempt a punish. Compared to crouching out of run where your opponent would do the opposite. It's not the biggest deal, but its valuable to control your opponent's options.
In a similar vein, slwd has a different pacing than dash->wave dash leading to a control of match pacing similar to the control of options I mentioned above.
Actually, for value in comparison to crouch->dash->wave dash, doesn't crouch take like 8 frames? 8 frames where you can't do anything? Compared to turnaround where you limit your options but are actionable throughout. That and your always moving during turnaround but are stationery during crouch for the period of time it takes you to flick down on your control stick, let it return to neutral, and then slam a direction. Which seems pretty significant.
Also, there are more ranges available to you during slwd since 1) you're moving during it and 2) it appears that intentionally performing a slwd sub-optimally makes your wavedash shorter. You have at least a 10 frame window (while you're moving and actionable) to choose if you wanna go through with the slwd or not.
And finally, I'm not convinced that dash->wave dash is actually the same distance as slwd. Barbie looks like he gets some significant distance in his vid. I feel as if I've duplicated that as well. As I've mentioned, there's a significant gap between the 'wave' in the wave dash and samus when you slwd, and it doesn't look like that for dash->wave dash.
You asked me for my explanation, you want it, you got it, you too proud to sift through my insult as a result of you being incompetent and unwilling to ask questions at first, this is what you got, take it or leave it, I'm not putting in the time to remove the insults i put in such time to create specifically tailored to your initial incompetence.Literally not reading that. I could have found it if I wanted to read a book, but I don't want to wade through your toxicity. If you want an ACTUAL response, you can type it out logically and briefly...you know... Like everyone else.
@ Litt @Corigames Is this the case?Dash>Wavedash is longer that the slingshot..
I feel like crouching in neutral hecka telegraphs you're intentions. Describing the slingshot as fluid is a strong point though. Like I mentioned before, the technique is valuable because of its pacing as well. Even though the window for the slingshot is fairly small you still have like 30 frames of turnaround to decide what you're going to do (if you forego the slingshot) while your position is constantly changing--- at a rate no other movement option moves at I should add. If you wanted to do something analogous out of crouch what would it be? Just sitting there? You lose advantage by staying still.There is a fluidity to the slingshot that the other option lacks, but generally the crouch option has less limited options.
I haven't tested, but dash into wd tilt is beyond telegraphed and I would rarely if ever actually use it, especially out of a crouch, if anything I would use it as a bait option to crouch in a punishable range, to dash away wd back f or up tilt, as an approach I don't find its use to be applicable in any match against a smart opponent in neutral, the only exception I would say would be the jiggs MU for when she is about to land to get in a quick jab against puffs at mid percents to lift them off the ground for a free nair or fsmash@ Litt @Corigames Is this the case?
I feel like crouching in neutral hecka telegraphs you're intentions. Describing the slingshot as fluid is a strong point though. Like I mentioned before, the technique is valuable because of its pacing as well. Even though the window for the slingshot is fairly small you still have like 30 frames of turnaround to decide what you're going to do (if you forego the slingshot) while your position is constantly changing--- at a rate no other movement option moves at I should add. If you wanted to do something analogous out of crouch what would it be? Just sitting there? You lose advantage by staying still.
Its more telegraphed because of the break of neutral of the cc, which literally tells the opponent you are locked down for 8 frames on this spot and this spot becomes their neutral focal point, and makes them more likely to be willing to give up space and punish an approach or attempt to punish you because you entered into a crouch. If you read my post above insulting mervis,Is dash->wave dash more telegraphed just because people are more familiar with it?
Sounds good dude. You don't respect my well researched knowledge anyways.You asked me for my explanation, you want it, you got it, you too proud to sift through my insult as a result of you being incompetent and unwilling to ask questions at first, this is what you got, take it or leave it, I'm not putting in the time to remove the insults i put in such time to create specifically tailored to your initial incompetence.
Dash Wavedash is like 4 frames longer than a wavedash. So it's basically as telegraphed as a wavedash.Is dash->wave dash more telegraphed just because people are more familiar with it?
Yeah, it takes very long for turnaround to accelerate to even her max run speed (1,4), while 1 frame dash gives samus speed of 1,8, and her speed before jumpsquat is all that matters. So in most conditinions dash wd is faster, and you only need to dash for 1 frame to get the advantage, so it's not really more telegraphed than wd anyway.Is this the case?
PTSD would be indicative of me being rude to you, induced by seeing new posts of mine, however I can't ever recall verbally accosting youSeeing Barbie post triggers me. I basically have PTSD from how rude Barbie is for little to no reason.
PTSD can by caused by many things including any traumatic situation, or any severe stress. You severely stress me out.PTSD would be indicative of me being rude to you, induced by seeing new posts of mine, however I can't ever recall verbally accosting you
Ah yeah lmao but thats more because I don't like pm as a game or people that only play it, thus the extreme shortness I have with more PM kidsPTSD can by caused by many things including any traumatic situation, or any severe stress. You severely stress me out.
But yeah, you'd be right, it's never directed at me, it's just I have been mostly studying PM Samus stuff on the boards, and your particular brand of affront saturates the forums.