Slingshot Wavedashing

[Litt]

Id rather actively discourage his presence that ignore him since he does not know when to shut up, its my post, and he is incompetent ^_^

 

[Mervis]

>Rigorously tests the tech

he is incompetent

>Barbie get's rekt by mods

Id rather actively discourage his presence

^_^

>Lolumad

 

[343]

@ Litt Right.

@ 343 I really believe you have to question why you're wavedashing. I think a lot of times when you could wavedash (up close), a foxtrot could be just as good or a better option (no full dashing).

Take this match from Plup, first search result.

http://gfycat.com/BronzeDeliciousHamadryas#?speed=0.25

1. Trying to wd back instead of shield caused him to get hit by Sheik's nair - An instinct example, I'm pretty sure.

2. Wd-ing back from Sheik's shield was unnecessary spacing - would a dash back pivot grab have been a better option? Harder to pull off, but what does a wd back from shield really accomplish a lot of the time? Half the time you can just jab cancel pressure their shield (Falcon, Fox) and other times it's just as good of an option to stand there and wait to jab them if they move, isn't it?

3. Wd-ing to chase Sheik with a dsmash got him hit - wouldn't a dash+cc+fsmash have been a better choice, with better reach and less lag at the end, while covering the option of if Sheik tried to jump?

Reminds me of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roGXwMN-LGg

1. If he did anything but shield (or maybe wd or dash back, considering he was walking forward) he would've gotten hit; this includes dashing. So I don't really see your point here, other than "Plup should've shielded because m2k's nair was already out."

2. Why was wavedashing back "unnecessary spacing"? In that position (i.e. in Sheik's shieldgrab range) what option is better than re-spacing yourself? Jabbing Sheik's shield will get you shieldgrabbed; even if Sheik lets go of shield, she just cc grabs your jab. This position is always a "try to guess when the opponent tries to act out of shield and use a not-jab move at that time," except they literally have enough time (see http://smashboards.com/threads/extennnduurrrrrr-samus-gen-disc.243160/page-159#post-18690693) to punish you in between your "pressure."

When you say "dash back pivot grab," that's still a spacing option; if you didn't think he needed to space, you'd say "why not just grab?" I do agree that it's better to dash back empty pivot to space instead of wavedashing, simply because it's faster, so I'll give you that, but I think in lieu of that, wavedash back ftilt / jab / utilt are the next fastest ways to re-space + put out a hitbox.

3. Just to be clear: I assume when you say "dash + cc + fsmash" you mean "dash -> run -> crouch -> fsmash." Again, if you look at http://smashboards.com/threads/ultimate-ground-movement-analysis-turbo-edition.392367/, a max length wavedash is just faster than Samus's run / dash. The dsmash vs fsmash has nothing to do with whether you're wavedashing or not; doing either of them on m2k's shield would've gotten him punished.

So yes, I agree that doing empty pivots is good for micro-spacing, but beyond that, I'm not convinced by your "anti-wavedash" arguments. (I'm guessing you're just trying to play devil's advocate, but I don't really agree with your points.)

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

1. If he did anything but shield (or maybe wd or dash back, considering he was walking forward) he would've gotten hit; this includes dashing. So I don't really see your point here, other than "Plup should've shielded because m2k's nair was already out."

2. Why was wavedashing back "unnecessary spacing"? In that position (i.e. in Sheik's shieldgrab range) what option is better than re-spacing yourself? Jabbing Sheik's shield will get you shieldgrabbed; even if Sheik lets go of shield, she just cc grabs your jab. This position is always a "try to guess when the opponent tries to act out of shield and use a not-jab move at that time," except they literally have enough time (see http://smashboards.com/threads/extennnduurrrrrr-samus-gen-disc.243160/page-159#post-18690693) to punish you in between your "pressure."

When you say "dash back pivot grab," that's still a spacing option; if you didn't think he needed to space, you'd say "why not just grab?" I do agree that it's better to dash back empty pivot to space instead of wavedashing, simply because it's faster, so I'll give you that, but I think in lieu of that, wavedash back ftilt / jab / utilt are the next fastest ways to re-space + put out a hitbox.

3. Just to be clear: I assume when you say "dash + cc + fsmash" you mean "dash -> run -> crouch -> fsmash." Again, if you look at http://smashboards.com/threads/ultimate-ground-movement-analysis-turbo-edition.392367/, a max length wavedash is just faster than Samus's run / dash. The dsmash vs fsmash has nothing to do with whether you're wavedashing or not; doing either of them on m2k's shield would've gotten him punished.

So yes, I agree that doing empty pivots is good for micro-spacing, but beyond that, I'm not convinced by your "anti-wavedash" arguments. (I'm guessing you're just trying to play devil's advocate, but I don't really agree with your points.)

Actually...

1. Right. He should have shielded, but he didn't shield, he wd'd back, which got him hit. I'm saying this is probably evidence of his relying on wavedashing too much - wd was not a good option here, but it was considered (as evidence by his wavedashing back).

2. So don't shield-jab Fox or Sheik then (you can on falcon), and don't jab them when they come out of shield. M2k waited to grab Samus when he could have otherwise, allowing Samus to reset (she sidestepped first), meaning Samus could have just waited there and up+b'd (fastest), or dash-pivoted to a grab. What I'm saying is, wd back was unnecessary because it accomplished nothing, and wd-ing back into jab was unnecessary because that pressure too accomplishes nothing at that spacing. If sheik wants to sit in her shield then let her, she's forced to make the first move not you, while you're at an adequate range to respond. (I never said to shield-jab Sheik, by the way, I know she can oos fair you).

3. No, and you're reading into the data too much: wd+fmash in its completeness is not as fast as dashing (no running) to crouch to fsmash, strictly because we don't need any of the distance from a wd. We're not hitting up close, we're reaching with fsmash to keep the shield pressure because if Sheik does anything besides shield she will get hit. This is also because Samus will not get punished at that range, fsmash will finish before sheik gets a chance to respond.

I'm saying that dashing into attacks or shields is generally a better choice for Samus when up close against opponents, as wavedashing is too slow for the distance you're trying to cover, and wavedashing back from an opponents shield provides what benefit exactly?

 

[Litt]

@ 343 @ -Philip Coast Philip- neither of this **** is relevant to the topic, take it to the main samus discussion thread

 

[343]

1. some wrong claim. I thought it was forward at first, but now it looks like it was an in-place or very slightly back wavedash. Still, I'm not sure what he was going for, but dash wouldn't have helped. I agree that maybe it was a twitch-reflex wavedash, but I think that was more of a macro decision-making error.
2. WD back ftilt could punish something like shieldgrab; in general, it at least puts you at a good spacing (not immediately punishable) while still being close enough to pressure. I would argue that the pressure does not "accomplish nothing at that spacing"; it gives you time to react to move-forward oos options, the threat of grab is still there, and you don't give up too much space. I would also argue that Plup's initial spacing was not at an "adequate range to respond," since Sheik could literally just shieldgrab right there.
3. You can't dash (no run) -> crouch. It's literally not possible to crouch out of dash. fsmash is also punishable if it his shield (albeit a bit harder to punish, especially if well-spaced). The bigger problem with fsmash is that in this position, Sheik is at 0%. She can simply cc the fsmash (or even just ASDI down, probably) and punish you for it even if it hits, while she can't punish your dsmash on hit.

 

[Mervis]

@ 343 @ -Philip Coast Philip- neither of this **** is relevant to the topic, take it to the main samus discussion thread

Yep I'm with Barbie. This isn't really useful in this thread.

 

[Litt]

1. some wrong claim. I thought it was forward at first, but now it looks like it was an in-place or very slightly back wavedash. Still, I'm not sure what he was going for, but dash wouldn't have helped. I agree that maybe it was a twitch-reflex wavedash, but I think that was more of a macro decision-making error.
2. WD back ftilt could punish something like shieldgrab; in general, it at least puts you at a good spacing (not immediately punishable) while still being close enough to pressure. I would argue that the pressure does not "accomplish nothing at that spacing"; it gives you time to react to move-forward oos options, the threat of grab is still there, and you don't give up too much space. I would also argue that Plup's initial spacing was not at an "adequate range to respond," since Sheik could literally just shieldgrab right there.
3. You can't dash (no run) -> crouch. It's literally not possible to crouch out of dash. fsmash is also punishable if it his shield (albeit a bit harder to punish, especially if well-spaced). The bigger problem with fsmash is that in this position, Sheik is at 0%. She can simply cc the fsmash (or even just ASDI down, probably) and punish you for it even if it hits, while she can't punish your dsmash on hit.

Originally this is what I wrote,

Hey 343 I didn't want to call you out, but you were mediocre even in New England, so really bud no one cares... I asked you nicely to move it to general discussion, so now Im telling you to shut up and move it along. If you care this much about arguing with phillip, just private message him

Honestly it was just mean and unfair because I havent seen you play for quite some time so you may have improved and its not fair for me to judge you on who you were as a player, however the fact of the matter is you completely ignored what I posted asking you to bring your content to the general discussion and off my post, so you get a huge **** you... (those are asterisk and not an actual swear... so shove it mods) for just being a pretentious crap and feeling your small argument has precedent over my request to keep my post topic relevant. Now seriously bud move it along.

 

[Mervis]

...your small argument has precedent over my request to keep my post topic relevant.

What are you doing to keep the post relevant? You've yet to comment on how your tech has a a more optimal method. Instead you get throw around your ego..

 

[schmooblidon]

lol samus boards.

quick rewind, mervis talked about run turnaround at the edge being faster. this happens because you cannot edgecancel or otto-cancel run turnaround, but hitting the edge sets your velocity to 0. Then, provided you are holding back, will start to accelerate backwards. So instead of having to deccelerate to 0 gradually, it's instant and lets you start accelerating backwards much faster. This tech can also allow you to accelerate faster than your run speed, the same tech that makes boost runs work, as there is no cap on the velocity. Once you enter run again, you go back to your max run speed.

this definitely isn't an optimal tech, but it has a little bit of mixup viability. it's basically a stickywalk bait/mindgame, i think you should forget about the extra wd distance as it's pretty non existent. i would instead think about the time you want to stay suspended in run turnaround, and use the time to react to what your opponent does, either will wd forward, wd back, up-b or dash attack. dash attack is kinda goofy as it has set velocity, so no matter how slow you are running, it will push you forward like normal.

 

[Litt]

What are you doing to keep the post relevant? You've yet to comment on how your tech has a a more optimal method. Instead you get throw around your ego..

I am keeping this post on topic from people that try and derail it with their own egos or incompetence, incompetence being you and egos being 343. I can throw around mine, because I have the player ability to back up what I say... derp

 

[Mervis]

I am keeping this post on topic from people that try and derail it with their own egos or incompetence, incompetence being you and egos being 343. I can throw around mine, because I have the player ability to back up what I say... derp

You weren't useful in this thread at all though. I tested this tech way more than you did I feel like and I was right from the very beginning. You really need to bring a valid point that challenges what has been discovered before you flaunt your ego. Otherwise you come off as "incompetent".

 

[Litt]

You weren't useful in this thread at all though. I tested this tech way more than you did I feel like and I was right from the very beginning. You really need to bring a valid point that challenges what has been discovered before you flaunt your ego. Otherwise you come off as "incompetent".

Useful at all? I created it... I explained the implications this tech has and its caveats... in the post you didn't read because it told you to sodd off and that you are incompetent. I brought the majority of valid points, and your points didn't challenge anything you just thought you were right from the beginning and thought people had to prove you wrong, thats not the way **** works here... you were wrong and we just told you to shut up and go away because you weren't contributing or understanding...

 

[Mervis]

you were wrong and we just told you to shut up and go away

Who's we? Once again Barbie you have proved yourself to be an emotional wreck. There's PAGES of you complaining about stuff that is so irrelevant. I wasn't ever really wrong either lol. Criticizing and IDEA or "tech" is how answers are found. I never took a shot at you..(Well ok I did say "lolumad" but that was after the fact). YOU ARE STILL STRAYING FROM MY MAIN POINT! What are the benefits to this tech other than the mixup? Are you "competent" to answer that question without getting all egotistical? Seriously, just answer the question in a logical, formal manner. I'm not here to tell you off. I just want to know if this tech is worth anyone's time.

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

i would instead think about the time you want to stay suspended in run turnaround, and use the time to react to what your opponent does, either will wd forward, wd back, up-b or dash attack. dash attack is kinda goofy as it has set velocity, so no matter how slow you are running, it will push you forward like normal.

You can also JC grab both directions out of turnaround as well as JC bomb. The grab is especially hilarious because you can face one way and grab the other. It's also prolly valuable to consider sh nair out of turnaround as well.

These are dumb options, but I'm posting them for posterity. The mix-up potential should be seldom used but its still valuable to consider these.

 

[Mervis]

The mix-up potential should be seldom used but its still valuable to consider these.

Agreed. Bad options become good options when your opponent doesn't consider them. Samus seems to have a plethora of bad options, and that's partially why she is so fun.

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

bomb out of turnaround would look hilarious

I just want to know if this tech is worth anyone's time.

At the very least, turnaround encourages different options from your opponent eg they can/are likely to choose a cc-able option if they choose to attempt a punish. Compared to crouching out of run where your opponent would do the opposite. It's not the biggest deal, but its valuable to control your opponent's options.

In a similar vein, slwd has a different pacing than dash->wave dash leading to a control of match pacing similar to the control of options I mentioned above.

Actually, for value in comparison to crouch->dash->wave dash, doesn't crouch take like 8 frames? 8 frames where you can't do anything? Compared to turnaround where you limit your options but are actionable throughout. That and your always moving during turnaround but are stationery during crouch for the period of time it takes you to flick down on your control stick, let it return to neutral, and then slam a direction. Which seems pretty significant.

Also, there are more ranges available to you during slwd since 1) you're moving during it and 2) it appears that intentionally performing a slwd sub-optimally makes your wavedash shorter. You have at least a 10 frame window (while you're moving and actionable) to choose if you wanna go through with the slwd or not.

And finally, I'm not convinced that dash->wave dash is actually the same distance as slwd. Barbie looks like he gets some significant distance in his vid. I feel as if I've duplicated that as well. As I've mentioned, there's a significant gap between the 'wave' in the wave dash and samus when you slwd, and it doesn't look like that for dash->wave dash.

 

[343]

I am keeping this post on topic from people that try and derail it with their own egos or incompetence, incompetence being you and egos being 343. I can throw around mine, because I have the player ability to back up what I say... derp

lol sorry, I didn't see your post until after I posted (since it took me a while to write that post)

 

[Litt]

Who's we? Once again Barbie you have proved yourself to be an emotional wreck. There's PAGES of you complaining about stuff that is so irrelevant. I wasn't ever really wrong either lol. Criticizing and IDEA or "tech" is how answers are found. I never took a shot at you..(Well ok I did say "lolumad" but that was after the fact). YOU ARE STILL STRAYING FROM MY MAIN POINT! What are the benefits to this tech other than the mixup? Are you "competent" to answer that question without getting all egotistical? Seriously, just answer the question in a logical, formal manner. I'm not here to tell you off. I just want to know if this tech is worth anyone's time.

Refer to post where I completely insulted you down to your core, the logic of the usefulness of the tech is all in that post.

 

[Mervis]

Refer to post where I completely insulted you down to your core, the logic of the usefulness of the tech is all in that post.

Which one? You did that several times and I never bothered to read any of them and I still consider them pointless to read. You get more flies with honey.

 

[Mervis]

bomb out of turnaround would look hilarious



At the very least, turnaround encourages different options from your opponent eg they can/are likely to choose a cc-able option if they choose to attempt a punish. Compared to crouching out of run where your opponent would do the opposite. It's not the biggest deal, but its valuable to control your opponent's options.

In a similar vein, slwd has a different pacing than dash->wave dash leading to a control of match pacing similar to the control of options I mentioned above.

Actually, for value in comparison to crouch->dash->wave dash, doesn't crouch take like 8 frames? 8 frames where you can't do anything? Compared to turnaround where you limit your options but are actionable throughout. That and your always moving during turnaround but are stationery during crouch for the period of time it takes you to flick down on your control stick, let it return to neutral, and then slam a direction. Which seems pretty significant.

Also, there are more ranges available to you during slwd since 1) you're moving during it and 2) it appears that intentionally performing a slwd sub-optimally makes your wavedash shorter. You have at least a 10 frame window (while you're moving and actionable) to choose if you wanna go through with the slwd or not.

And finally, I'm not convinced that dash->wave dash is actually the same distance as slwd. Barbie looks like he gets some significant distance in his vid. I feel as if I've duplicated that as well. As I've mentioned, there's a significant gap between the 'wave' in the wave dash and samus when you slwd, and it doesn't look like that for dash->wave dash.

First of lets not abbreviate this as SLWD. abbreviating slingshot would be SS right? So SSWD? Doesn't ACTUALLY matter but that's been bothering me lol.

There is a fluidity to the slingshot that the other option lacks, but generally the crouch option has less limited options. You can still jump you of crouch right? You can also use and ground based move. The turnaround REQUIRES a wavedash/Jump mechanic.

Dash>Wavedash is longer that the slingshot. I'm like 95% sure. The only time I could get the slingshot to yield comparable results was when I sped up the turn animation right on the ledge, which isn't really useful because that's a very specific action for an already very specific tech.

I've been trying to use this tech in games, (Even in a tourney match), but it usually falls short. There's never really a time in neutral where extending the time it takes to set up your ftilt is even viable. Wavedash ftilt is good because it's quick and nearly unpunishable. Why would you want to mindgame something that's already safe? Slingshot into jab is a more unique option, but once again, why would you want to extend something that is relatively safe already? I feel like this one of those things that you can pull off every now and then and smirk at it working. That's just my opinion though. (Inb4 barbie says not credible). Going through all of the data would heavily back up my claim.

 

[Litt]

@ Mervis
"Barbie man. When I start criticizing the tech (THE TECH MIND YOU), that's when present arguments to defend said tech. That's all you have to do. I love dissecting the pros and cons in everything. It's not a personal jab.

I've messed around with it, and all it really accomplishes is a different way to approach with an ftilt. Like I said, two wave dashes would easily accomplish exactly this in less(?) frames. Also, it might extend the second wave dash, but you are essentially replacing one wavedash with a turnaround, hence why it would be better to just do a full wavedash twice. I'm not underestimating the mixup value at all. It's a great way to bait someone out of a defensive option due to them trying to punish a turnaround. Please criticize my thoughts without losing your temper. I'd be happy to see why I am wrong without having you cry a wall of tears @ Litt . You seem like a smart dude, you just lose your head in EVERY SINGLE THREAD. Seriously, I've never seen you just be a cool Samus dude."

"Of course its not a personal jab, however you should think of what pros and cons are supported by facts and which are just the thoughts clunking around in your head before putting them in writing. Doing a commitment of two wavedashes, puts forward two commitments of forward momentum which gives away your intention to your opponent, especially if they themselves are not approaching. DERRRR Neutral game, nah **** that ****, ill just do two wavedashes forward and an fsmash, better yet, just run at them and dash attack, they will never see that coming..... Should you keep the distance of a slingshot wavedash away from them, the threat of a commitment then becomes the initial point of slingshot turnaround, which is noncommitmal for samus since she can wavedash away at any point, yet she is still in range for a slingshot wavedash ftilt distance, which a good opponent after being hit with this mix up once, will understand that they need to give samus more distance and anytime entering into the dash turnaround animation, is a threat for themselves. Two wavedashes does the same thing distance wise, but it has the same commitment as literally running forward the same distance of two wavedashes... Stop perpetuating ideas as if you understand the implications for them and just ask instead because clearly you are at an elementary level of play still. This SLWD extends the distance samus can safely stay while still being in noncommittal threatening situations for an opponent, which is the real value of the tech. You may love disecting the pros and cons, but bro you are not ready to speak on the validity of said pros and cons quiet yet, develop more as a player then start spouting your mouth off about what you know, by that point you wont want to, because you have to deal with kids like you now that think they know their **** and would need to spend most of your time correcting them where your time would be better off spent else where. The only reason I am choosing to do so here, is to clarify the usefulness of this tech so people do not misunderstand your incompetent evaluation of it one post down. ASK... DON'T TALK IF YOU DON'T KNOW YOUR ****... don't ask people to "Please criticize my thoughts without losing your temper." Instead formulate those thoughts into questions so people can criticize them, I would have been more than happy to do so, and without insulting you because you came from a place of requesting information and knowledge, the way you posit your thoughts you come from a place of declaration and a prove me wrong attitude, which you have no place doing (yet). Think about that next time you just throw your thoughts on here."

 

[Mervis]

Literally not reading that. I could have found it if I wanted to read a book, but I don't want to wade through your toxicity. If you want an ACTUAL response, you can type it out logically and briefly...you know... Like everyone else.

 

[Litt]

Literally not reading that. I could have found it if I wanted to read a book, but I don't want to wade through your toxicity. If you want an ACTUAL response, you can type it out logically and briefly...you know... Like everyone else.

You asked me for my explanation, you want it, you got it, you too proud to sift through my insult as a result of you being incompetent and unwilling to ask questions at first, this is what you got, take it or leave it, I'm not putting in the time to remove the insults i put in such time to create specifically tailored to your initial incompetence.

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

Dash>Wavedash is longer that the slingshot..

@ Litt @Corigames Is this the case?

There is a fluidity to the slingshot that the other option lacks, but generally the crouch option has less limited options.

I feel like crouching in neutral hecka telegraphs you're intentions. Describing the slingshot as fluid is a strong point though. Like I mentioned before, the technique is valuable because of its pacing as well. Even though the window for the slingshot is fairly small you still have like 30 frames of turnaround to decide what you're going to do (if you forego the slingshot) while your position is constantly changing--- at a rate no other movement option moves at I should add. If you wanted to do something analogous out of crouch what would it be? Just sitting there? You lose advantage by staying still.

EDIT: Also, I find the technique valuable for catching movement options people commit because they think they are at a safe distance. In my scene people like to stay wayyyy outside their opponents range/camp/camp platforms. The tech is pretty good for catching landings and empty short hops.

 

[Litt]

@ Litt @Corigames Is this the case?



I feel like crouching in neutral hecka telegraphs you're intentions. Describing the slingshot as fluid is a strong point though. Like I mentioned before, the technique is valuable because of its pacing as well. Even though the window for the slingshot is fairly small you still have like 30 frames of turnaround to decide what you're going to do (if you forego the slingshot) while your position is constantly changing--- at a rate no other movement option moves at I should add. If you wanted to do something analogous out of crouch what would it be? Just sitting there? You lose advantage by staying still.

I haven't tested, but dash into wd tilt is beyond telegraphed and I would rarely if ever actually use it, especially out of a crouch, if anything I would use it as a bait option to crouch in a punishable range, to dash away wd back f or up tilt, as an approach I don't find its use to be applicable in any match against a smart opponent in neutral, the only exception I would say would be the jiggs MU for when she is about to land to get in a quick jab against puffs at mid percents to lift them off the ground for a free nair or fsmash

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

Is dash->wave dash more telegraphed just because people are more familiar with it?

 

[Litt]

Is dash->wave dash more telegraphed just because people are more familiar with it?

Its more telegraphed because of the break of neutral of the cc, which literally tells the opponent you are locked down for 8 frames on this spot and this spot becomes their neutral focal point, and makes them more likely to be willing to give up space and punish an approach or attempt to punish you because you entered into a crouch. If you read my post above insulting mervis,
"Doing a commitment of two wavedashes, puts forward two commitments of forward momentum which gives away your intention to your opponent, especially if they themselves are not approaching. DERRRR Neutral game, nah **** that ****, ill just do two wavedashes forward and an fsmash, better yet, just run at them and dash attack, they will never see that coming..... Should you keep the distance of a slingshot wavedash away from them, the threat of a commitment then becomes the initial point of slingshot turnaround, which is noncommitmal for samus since she can wavedash away at any point, yet she is still in range for a slingshot wavedash ftilt distance, which a good opponent after being hit with this mix up once, will understand that they need to give samus more distance and anytime entering into the dash turnaround animation, is a threat for themselves. Two wavedashes does the same thing distance wise, but it has the same commitment as literally running forward the same distance of two wavedashes..."

Think of how you get to the point of the crouch in the first place, did you give up any space getting to that point, or has it been a direct b line to your opponent? With the SS/SL WD, it telegraphs you giving up space with the turn around first, which eases the opponent into believing you are allowing them to take space by giving up some yourself, then taking back 2x the space right away from the result of the momentum. You can enter into the SS/SL WD at any point during a dash dance, which you can violate the assumption of continuing the dash dance into the run turn around as a result of how short samus's dash dance is.

 

[Mervis]

You asked me for my explanation, you want it, you got it, you too proud to sift through my insult as a result of you being incompetent and unwilling to ask questions at first, this is what you got, take it or leave it, I'm not putting in the time to remove the insults i put in such time to create specifically tailored to your initial incompetence.

Sounds good dude. You don't respect my well researched knowledge anyways.

 

[Mervis]

Is dash->wave dash more telegraphed just because people are more familiar with it?

Dash Wavedash is like 4 frames longer than a wavedash. So it's basically as telegraphed as a wavedash.

 

[GoomySmash]

Someone should post a video of themselves actually using this in a match, that's the only way to truly determine if it's viable or not.

 

[tauKhan]

Is this the case?

Yeah, it takes very long for turnaround to accelerate to even her max run speed (1,4), while 1 frame dash gives samus speed of 1,8, and her speed before jumpsquat is all that matters. So in most conditinions dash wd is faster, and you only need to dash for 1 frame to get the advantage, so it's not really more telegraphed than wd anyway.

Also, I don't understand the idea that crouch is more telegraphed, when you have way more options during the crouch, and your mobility kinda matches runturn during the initial 8 frame Squat part. And do you know what a fast crouch -> dash back looks like? It's not actually easy to even notice the crouch. When cactuar started doing them at first, none of the commentators ever noticed the tech, and it looks quite like dash dancing actually.

 

[Lappy]

Seeing Barbie post triggers me. I basically have PTSD from how rude Barbie is for little to no reason.

 

[Litt]

Seeing Barbie post triggers me. I basically have PTSD from how rude Barbie is for little to no reason.

PTSD would be indicative of me being rude to you, induced by seeing new posts of mine, however I can't ever recall verbally accosting you

 

[Lappy]

PTSD would be indicative of me being rude to you, induced by seeing new posts of mine, however I can't ever recall verbally accosting you

PTSD can by caused by many things including any traumatic situation, or any severe stress. You severely stress me out.

But yeah, you'd be right, it's never directed at me, it's just I have been mostly studying PM Samus stuff on the boards, and your particular brand of affront saturates the forums.

 

[Litt]

PTSD can by caused by many things including any traumatic situation, or any severe stress. You severely stress me out.

But yeah, you'd be right, it's never directed at me, it's just I have been mostly studying PM Samus stuff on the boards, and your particular brand of affront saturates the forums.

Ah yeah lmao but thats more because I don't like pm as a game or people that only play it, thus the extreme shortness I have with more PM kids