Slingshot Wavedashing

[Mervis]

No I just mean if you turnaround on ledge the animation goes through faster.

Also if it's the same as doing a dash>wavedash....why is this tech relevant?

 

[Litt]

So is the captain falcon discussion finally over? Now that its finally the weekend, I'm nothing about making a vid for some of the applications of the tech I've been brain storming (after my 8 hour class today if I'm not too drained)

 

[Mervis]

So is the captain falcon discussion finally over? Now that its finally the weekend, I'm nothing about making a vid for some of the applications of the tech I've been brain storming (after my 8 hour class today if I'm not too drained)

Haha it was more or less an example. I just used him as an example to explain my thoughts on punishing the tech, which I've come to find isn't that punishable. Although as it stands this is just a slower dash>wavedash.

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

this is just a slower dash>wavedash.

Dash->wavedash is done when you're advancing, SLWD is done when you are retreating. Also due to how you execute them, even if they are exactly the same length they control different ranges.

Also also, the fact that you're rapidly accelerating during slwd (that wd is such a boost after the slingshot) but moving more uniformly with dash->wavedash is an important difference.

Also, I'm not sure if I buy they are the same length. If you watch Barbie's vid in first post you see him go way past the little puff of smoke from the wd and I haven't observed a samus wavedash that looks like that in other circumstances.

@Astrophysics Black Guy

I chuckled

 

[Mervis]

It doesn't matter the direction. You can turnaround dash>wavedash way faster than you can slingshot. Plus the slingshot has a set up period whereas dash>wavedash can be done immediately.

From what I have experimented with, the slingshot has never taken ME further than dash>wavedash. If you can somehow do it then I think there's ground for this to be somewhat useful.

 

[Corigames]

@ BillNyeTheSamusGuy

Spoiler

 

[pizzacato]

So also another TL;DR.

From what I gather, this slingshot wavedash is actually very brilliant. The time from inception to hit-box might be similar in time of execution, since the setup in the "pull" takes awhile, it leaves you at a "safer" distance in an awkward animation: then point A to point B gets crossed very fast.

I like this because who in the right mind thinks they'll be approached out of a dash turnaround animation?
now if you're just standing and wd twice, it's very easy to react to, I'd think.

Is this true? or am I blowing horse ****?

 

[tauKhan]

I like this because who in the right mind thinks they'll be approached out of a dash turnaround animation?
now if you're just standing and wd twice, it's very easy to react to, I'd think.

The problem I see with this is that during the 29 frames run turn (according to samus framedata thread) jumping is your ONLY option to interrupt the turn. So when you go for the run turn, you're projecting that you're very probably going to wd out of it.

You can achieve kind of similar movement by doing crouch out of run into dash back. That way you get the speed back after the run faster (you can dash back on frame 8 of crouch IIRC), but you also retain more options. And you get some crouch armored frames too, which probably doesn't matter too much though considering the distance you want to keep from your opponent.

Also the distance you get from the 'slingshot wd' is relative (and smaller) than dash wd.

I still think the 'slingshot wd' can be used to throw your opponent off particularly if he is unfamiliar with run turns, but it's kind of a gimmick, that I think won't be very effective in the long run.

 

[Mervis]

The problem I see with this is that during the 29 frames run turn (according to samus framedata thread) jumping is your ONLY option to interrupt the turn. So when you go for the run turn, you're projecting that you're very probably going to wd out of it.

You can achieve kind of similar movement by doing crouch out of run into dash back. That way you get the speed back after the run faster (you can dash back on frame 8 of crouch IIRC), but you also retain more options. And you get some crouch armored frames too, which probably doesn't matter too much though considering the distance you want to keep from your opponent.

Also the distance you get from the 'slingshot wd' is relative (and smaller) than dash wd.

I still think the 'slingshot wd' can be used to throw your opponent off particularly if he is unfamiliar with run turns, but it's kind of a gimmick, that I think won't be very effective in the long run.

This pretty much. The only thing it really has is a cheeky way to upB unexpectedly. Like I said from the beginning mind you? Guess I'm a little more credible than most people would like to think.

 

[Litt]

The problem I see with this is that during the 29 frames run turn (according to samus framedata thread) jumping is your ONLY option to interrupt the turn. So when you go for the run turn, you're projecting that you're very probably going to wd out of it.

You can achieve kind of similar movement by doing crouch out of run into dash back. That way you get the speed back after the run faster (you can dash back on frame 8 of crouch IIRC), but you also retain more options. And you get some crouch armored frames too, which probably doesn't matter too much though considering the distance you want to keep from your opponent.

Also the distance you get from the 'slingshot wd' is relative (and smaller) than dash wd.

I still think the 'slingshot wd' can be used to throw your opponent off particularly if he is unfamiliar with run turns, but it's kind of a gimmick, that I think won't be very effective in the long run.

Here is the issue I see with your dash into crouch into wavedash, it is dramatically more choreographed and there is no break to establish neutral... just running forward from a place where is non committal, to a place where is a clear commitment, into crouching, which says... comeon im CCing... come hit me, and even if you wd forward or back at that point... your opponent most likely is already wary... or committing to an attack that will hit you since you are in a committed distance, rising nair from fox, slight wd foward dtilt from marth... shiek tossing her needles... puff walling with a full hop bair and waiting for your next option select... all of which cover that safely without either committing or putting them in a place of real danger... however the SL brings you out of a wd ftilt range to a place where a wd back will not be punishable by any non projectile, with mayyyybeee the exception of a running knee from falcon that completely saw it coming, but even at that distance, you will be able to shield in time and chances are an up B oos from there... and your way... you are committing to an 8 frame crouch in a very punishable distance from your opponent should they have chosen that situation to commit and punish you. Also yes you can only jump here, but that does not mean you can only wavedash... on all stages but FD... you can aerial interrupt on the platform above you immediately into shield... rising nair that auto cancels on battlefield from a short hop into a isai drop nair from there which completely covers your ass.... dreamland buffer full jump c stick dair will AI you on the lower 2 plats, pkmn and yoshis you can short hop up air ai at apex of jump to instant shield.... i think you are beyond narrow minded into your evaluation of this as "a mix up and a gimmick" ... and it certainly can be used as an integral aspect of extending the reach of samus in her neutral game, on the other hand, your run into crouch... is in its very creation a gimmick in which to catch individuals in samus's crouch cancel or bait some kind of approach to punish with a wd back... but in no way does it have the same effect as the SLWD, espeically since you can easily access the run turn around from samus's very short dash dance range, where the distance covered with the run crouch wd, takes up more time, and is much more choreographed as previously explained.

 

[Litt]

This pretty much. The only thing it really has is a cheeky way to upB unexpectedly. Like I said from the beginning mind you? Guess I'm a little more credible than most people would like to think.

You still aren't credible or correct, leave my post

 

[standardtoaster]

Barbie, you cannot dictate who can and cannot view/respond to your thread. If you don't want to see someone's posts then just put them on ignore.

 

[tauKhan]

@ Litt So you think a crouch at the same distance from your opponent as you would have when running into the turn for SLWD is a commitment comparable to run turn? During initial crouch you have almost every ground option except dash, walk and turn, and even those are restricted for a very small period. On top of that you even get the crouch kb reduction.

 

[Litt]

Barbie, you cannot dictate who can and cannot view/respond to your thread. If you don't want to see someone's posts then just put them on ignore.

:o I can't damn, I've been trying to do that for years but thanks for confirming my suspicions......

@ Litt So you think a crouch at the same distance from your opponent as you would have when running into the turn for SLWD is a commitment comparable to run turn? During initial crouch you have almost every ground option except dash, walk and turn, and even those are restricted for a very small period. On top of that you even get the crouch kb reduction.

it is because you are stationary in a position where you rely on guessing your opponents intention in order to react, where as the SL you are at a point of constant movement throughout the tech, even have the option of just dashing away should you read an oponents approach, whereas you commit to the stationary crouch and say get at me... which is only really viable <40ish%... I'm not saying your option is useless... I am saying it is a gimmick and a gamble that puts you at a state of non neutral movement and puts the ball in your opponents court, something I prefer not to do against good/better players

 

[tauKhan]

Crouching out of run is a lot less stationary option than run turn. When you run turn you commit to only having acceleration of 0.12 for 29 frames (unless you wd out of course, but that you can do out of crouch as well). Where as if you go for crouch instead of run turn, you only commit to having 0.06 of decceleration caused by friction for 9 frames (yes, that's actually half the amount of decceleration you get from run turn). After that you gain access to burst of 1.8 units of speed in either direction by dashing. So with crouch at any given moment you're moving faster should you choose to do so.

This doesn't completely emulate the slowly accelerating movement ofc, but I think it's better, because you can spend more time further away from your opponent, while still being able to attack at the exact same space and time.

 

[Litt]

Crouching out of run is a lot less stationary option than run turn. When you run turn you commit to only having acceleration of 0.12 for 29 frames (unless you wd out of course, but that you can do out of crouch as well). Where as if you go for crouch instead of run turn, you only commit to having 0.06 of decceleration caused by friction for 9 frames (yes, that's actually half the amount of decceleration you get from run turn). After that you gain access to burst of 1.8 units of speed in either direction by dashing.

This doesn't completely emulate the slowly accelerating movement ofc, but I think it's better, because you can spend more time further away from your opponent, while still being able to attack at the exact same space and time.

After that... which is 8 frames of stationary... and no extension of neutral, simply just a pause in neutral... where you have the same options as stationary standing, with just less options, the benefit of the SL is the illusion of giving up space and taking up twice the amount to than break neutral, and granted a turn around is a greater commitment than crouching a run animation, the effects one elicits mentally from the opponent are incomparable. Right now you are trying to compare apples and oranges, and I by no means am trying to discredit your contribution, all I am doing is saying that it is incomparable to the SLWD because they are trying to achieve two different means and their effects in neutral have very different implications.

 

[tauKhan]

Even the "stationary" part is very comparable to early frames of run turn. During the initial crouch part you start with your run speed, and friction reduces that speed by 0,06 as opposed to run turn deccelerating you by 0,12. So you move kind of same way, just slow down slower, but then you quickly get the opportunity to actually greatly affect your speed in an instant.

I do believe that for movement purposes run -> crouch into dash wd can be used as a replacement for SLWD, for the reasons I already stated. However as I already mentioned, I do see value in tricking down opponents with SLWD's. I just don't think it's going to work very long if you use it against a player you play regularly because they can catch on to how the run turn works, and the animation itself is very easy to identify.

 

[Mervis]

the benefit of the SL is the illusion of giving up space.

That's it. That's we have confirmed so far is it is a mixup/mindgame. Every other benefit you have tried to highlight is outshined by something else.

 

[Litt]

Even the "stationary" part is very comparable to early frames of run turn. During the initial crouch part you start with your run speed, and friction reduces that speed by 0,06 as opposed to run turn deccelerating you by 0,12. So you move kind of same way, just slow down slower, but then you quickly get the opportunity to actually greatly affect your speed in an instant.

I do believe that for movement purposes run -> crouch into dash wd can be used as a replacement for SLWD, for the reasons I already stated. However as I already mentioned, I do see value in tricking down opponents with SLWD's. I just don't think it's going to work very long if you use it against a player you play regularly because they can catch on to how the run turn works, and the animation itself is very easy to identify.

even if the turn around is easy to identify, it makes the threat of commitment that much more real at a distance that is hardly punishable, especially on stages where you can utilize the platforms above you, if anything it forces a reaction from an opponent that is smart enough to not approach but unwilling to commit to anything

 

[Mervis]

even if the turn around is easy to identify, it makes the threat of commitment that much more real at a distance that is hardly punishable, especially on stages where you can utilize the platforms above you, if anything it forces a reaction from an opponent that is smart enough to not approach but unwilling to commit to anything

So dash dancing but worse?

 

[pizzacato]

Idk, I like this. And I'll use it. and bet you'll be surprised.
I bet.

 

[Mervis]

Idk, I like this. And I'll use it. and bet you'll be surprised.
I bet.

Do it during our mega money match so I can win easier..

 

[pizzacato]

Do it during our mega money match so I can win easier..

lol I'll do it as many times as it takes for you to dodge it. lol

 

[Riskbreaker]

Slingshot seems pretty cool. Mixes up her approach and you can still remain relatively safe regardless of what the opposing character does unless you have terrible reaction time.

Out of curiosity, would cactuar dashing into a wavedash be faster by any large margin? or would it be more or less negligible. Aaaaand scratch that, it seems someone already raised a similar point.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

Um just chiming in here, @ Mervis basically you lacked some initial detail in your first criticism of this technique, which is basically what Barbie took offense to, thinking of it as a personal jab ("unnecessarily critical") since I believe you didn't put as much thought into it as we believed you could have.

@ Litt It looks like your expectations for the level of seriousness in these topics is giving you trouble. Yes, it's a board for competitive discussion but even many skilled players will post without too much thought behind their posts, as they haven't necessarily made a full decision about their own thoughts yet. Regardless, it seems you've been met with adversity multiple times now and I think that's due to these expectations. A little more patience in your posts would yield more positive conversation.

 

[Litt]

Um just chiming in here, @ Mervis basically you lacked some initial detail in your first criticism of this technique, which is basically what Barbie took offense to, thinking of it as a personal jab ("unnecessarily critical") since I believe you didn't put as much thought into it as we believed you could have.

@ Litt It looks like your expectations for the level of seriousness in these topics is giving you trouble. Yes, it's a board for competitive discussion but even many skilled players will post without too much thought behind their posts, as they haven't necessarily made a full decision about their own thoughts yet. Regardless, it seems you've been met with adversity multiple times now and I think that's due to these expectations. A little more patience in your posts would yield more positive conversation.

I've come to understand that, however most good players don't choose post on here but when they do their merit is backed up with their name, not just what info they can put behind the tech, so when newer players emulate this style of communication, they misunderstand that they are not quite there yet, where their ideas just being thrown up, isnt useful quite yet, because they have not been refined from high level play and the only way they will be taken seriously is if they back it up with hard facts and data

 

[Mervis]

I lacked detail but I was right in the end yeah? Doing something that is baseline worse than other options is niche. That's not a high level mentality. I'm a low tier player AT BEST and I knew that. The only think REALLY discovered from this I feel is that you can wavedash/screwattack out of turnaround which is a niche mixup.

I'm going to chalk this up to Barbie being salty at a low lvl player calling him out AND being right.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

I lacked detail but I was right in the end yeah?

No, unfortunately.

I'm going to chalk this up to Barbie being salty at a low lvl player for calling him out

Yes

AND being right.

No.

I think it's a valid technique. I think you missed something and have not fully considered its effective limits in comparison to its alternative. It may not be worth an entire thread's discussion because with this fine of a point, I think you can really only ask if someone else has done it themselves or if someone has notes on it (which is basically the question in the op). Like any technique its up to the individual to figure out the specifics.

A different discussion would be like... I sometimes find it surprising how little wavedashing actually benefits Samus. Baiting, yes, but in the fray, I'd argue WD OoS is her biggest option. Spacing is done better by dashing/pivoting or its unneeded, movement in general is done better simply by dashing a lot of the time (more options/less commitment, faster/whatever), she just really doesn't need it. Precision yes, wavelanding, but I think for the most part wd is more visual than beneficial.

 

[343]

One problem with Samus is her pretty short initial dash (and the fact that holding dash transitions to run so quickly; if you hold the stick for 8 frames she starts running), which makes her dashdance game so much worse than that of say, Marth, Falcon, or Fox.

Wavedash is definitely a "more laggy" spacing option (in that it takes a minimum of 3 frame jumpsquat + 1 frame airborne(??) + 10 frame land fall special) than a dash -> pivot, but it covers more potential distance. Even the "full-length" (20-frame) initial dash goes only about as far as a diagonal-notch wavedash; it's significantly shorter than a max length wavedash.

(source: http://smashboards.com/threads/ultimate-ground-movement-analysis-turbo-edition.392367/)

 

[Litt]

No, unfortunately.
Yes
No.

I think it's a valid technique. I think you missed something and have not fully considered its effective limits in comparison to its alternative. It may not be worth an entire thread's discussion because with this fine of a point, I think you can really only ask if someone else has done it themselves or if someone has notes on it (which is basically the question in the op). Like any technique its up to the individual to figure out the specifics.

A different discussion would be like... I sometimes find it surprising how little wavedashing actually benefits Samus. Baiting, yes, but in the fray, I'd argue WD OoS is her biggest option. Spacing is done better by dashing/pivoting or its unneeded, movement in general is done better simply by dashing a lot of the time (more options/less commitment, faster/whatever), she just really doesn't need it. Precision yes, wavelanding, but I think for the most part wd is more visual than beneficial.

Something to keep in mind with this technique is that it is beneficial for samus's macro game of hit and run, because you can cross it up with a longer wd f tilt than normal, and in the same distance of a normal wavedash ftilt, you can do a SLWD jab, so its great to mixing up the zones for what commitment is going to be made when playing against a smarter opponent that is going to actually use their shield instead of just try and **** on you like what Mervis experiences.

 

[tauKhan]

@ 343 Samus wd is 13 frames, 3 jumpsquat and 10 landing. You're aerial on the beginning of frame 4, but you airdodge and land on the same frame. So you're kind of aerial in between the frames 3-4. Sorry for offtopic.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

@ Litt Right.

@ 343 I really believe you have to question why you're wavedashing. I think a lot of times when you could wavedash (up close), a foxtrot could be just as good or a better option (no full dashing).

Take this match from Plup, first search result.

http://gfycat.com/BronzeDeliciousHamadryas#?speed=0.25

1. Trying to wd back instead of shield caused him to get hit by Sheik's nair - An instinct example, I'm pretty sure.

2. Wd-ing back from Sheik's shield was unnecessary spacing - would a dash back pivot grab have been a better option? Harder to pull off, but what does a wd back from shield really accomplish a lot of the time? Half the time you can just jab cancel pressure their shield (Falcon, Fox) and other times it's just as good of an option to stand there and wait to jab them if they move, isn't it?

3. Wd-ing to chase Sheik with a dsmash got him hit - wouldn't a dash+cc+fsmash have been a better choice, with better reach and less lag at the end, while covering the option of if Sheik tried to jump?

Reminds me of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roGXwMN-LGg

 

[Mervis]

I mean if we discovered that there are better methods of doing the same thing this tech accomplishes, then what does it have going for it other than mixup value? Seriously, someone explain something it does that is unique.

 

[Litt]

I mean if we discovered that there are better methods of doing the same thing this tech accomplishes, then what does it have going for it other than mixup value? Seriously, someone explain something it does that is unique.

If you need that pointed out to you... this is a tech you should not be using or thinking about yet, especially after everything everyone has gone over to try and explain this to your pea sized noggin over and over again. For all intended purposes for you, this tech has no uses, happy? Stop posting on such a useless tech discussion ^_^

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

I mean if we discovered that there are better methods of doing the same thing this tech accomplishes, then what does it have going for it other than mixup value? Seriously, someone explain something it does that is unique.

Are there better methods?
I think it mostly illuminates the option to do it, the idea is that it's less of a commitment than wavedashing while still accomplishing the same thing, that's really all I need to know about it. If in the same situation I had wavedashed first I may have committed an error by committing to a move that may force me to shield if they approached me instead, whereas with a 'slingshot' I would still fall within the margin of being able to dash dance the other direction while retaining the speed+distance of a normal wavedash. It's more like, yeah the dd turn around animation propels you farther than you might realize, allowing you to retain your dash dance. Kind of what I was saying in my previous post about foxtrot options. If you think it can't work as an approach on its own, then don't bother with it, but as an option it still stands; wd back into wd would technically be faster instead of waiting for the 'sling' part of it but for the distance covered it's going to be unexpected. I think I'm explaining this correctly.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

also barbie has a pea sized ****

 

[Litt]

also barbie has a pea sized ****

No shots taken at you bro... wtf is your problem taking them at me? Mervis has not understood or taken into consideration someone else's view point or information posted on here aside from anything demarcating this tech as less than useful. I told him to get off my post multiple times yet he is still posting saying wtf is the point, if he doesnt get it by now, he should stop asking and put it aside for a later date when he actually understands its implications.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

No shots taken at you bro... wtf is your problem taking them at me? Mervis has not understood or taken into consideration someone else's view point or information posted on here aside from anything demarcating this tech as less than useful. I told him to get off my post multiple times yet he is still posting saying wtf is the point, if he doesnt get it by now, he should stop asking and put it aside for a later date when he actually understands its implications.

Damn, that censoring. I should have edited it or something because it looks more serious as stars than just written out; It was a joke. You said mervis had a pea sized noggin. I just shot back cuz I thought it'd be funny. I was more worried a mod might see it and not read into context lol. no hard feelings ^_^

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

a lot of things are censored actually. it's really hard to try and type that kind of humor out anyway.

either way stop being such a jerk to mervis, he can be in 'your thread' just ignore him and see if everyone else does too.

 

[Mervis]

Are there better methods?

Yes. We dissected the tech heavily. It is EXACTLY the same as a dash-wavedash. You can crouch turnaround dash-wavedash faster than this. It accomplishes everything this tech does without limiting your options to jumping/screw attack. I'm not just taking shots at anyone. I understand the whole "you don't commit concept". I understand what this tech is trying to accomplish. I also understand the frame data behind it. No one explained how this has an edge over the efficient way to do this EXCEPT for it's mixup. Someone see's you go for the turnaround and tries to punish? Up-B. They stay in shield? Wavevdash ftilt / Jab spam. Did I cover everything? If I left something out please remind me.