Slingshot Wavedashing

[Litt]

So the turnaround just adds a lot of distance during t he jumpsquat of the the wavedash?

Why are you still here? I unwelcomed you to my post/tech discovery yesterday, shoo

 

[cisyphus]

So the turnaround just adds a lot of distance during the jumpsquat of the wavedash?

 

[Litt]

So the turnaround just adds a lot of distance during the jumpsquat of the wavedash?

jump squat = 4 frames, so yes and no... it adds the potential of more distance forward should you commit to the forward wavedash which continues the momentum of the turn around slide

 

[dietsnapple89]

I bet Mervis would wreck Barbie in a ditto

 

[Mervis]

So the turnaround just adds a lot of distance during the jumpsquat of the wavedash?

Lol wait what?

 

[Mervis]

jump squat = 4 frames, so yes and no... it adds the potential of more distance forward should you commit to the forward wavedash which continues the momentum of the turn around slide

If it has momentum forward, wouldn't that make a wavedash back much smaller?

 

[Corigames]

To be fair, if you are going to include jump squat in the summation of the frames, are you also including the frames it takes to put Samus in the 'slingshot' situation?
Two WD forward:
4 frame jump squat -> 10 frame landing -> 4 frame jump squat -> 10 frame landing = 28 frames
Slingshot:
?# Dash away -> ?# turn around -> #? let momentum carry -> 4 frame jump squat -> 10 frame landing = ?
If @ BillNyeTheSamusGuy 's rough frame data is correct, then these first three steps equal 14 frames and makes the total equal. However, I'm skeptical of that being true.

Additionally, this technique requires that you move away from your opponent first before moving in. This means that the distance it covers actually isn't more than two WDs since you lose ground first before gaining it. In the video Barbie posted, look at where Samus is standing before successfully doing the tech (the second attempt at about the 1 second mark). Clearly, Samus is a single WD distance away from doing an ftilt and hitting Pichu. After performing the tech, the lower angle ftilt hits just at Pichu. Unless it can be done much further, you aren't gaining a net movement of two WDs, you're only netting about one (+/-) while taking longer, using more precise movement, and shortly losing ground before gaining it. Tot his end, this tech does not cover the same options that two WDs does and it might not even be a fair comparison to draw.

Where I really think the usage of this tech can shine is on opponents that are safely retreating on their aerials. Playing a standard DD game and staying outside of reach of your opponent can be challenging when playing Puffs, Marths, etc. since hitting them while they are backing off is so hard. With this, I could see dashing away to escape an attack, and then slingshotting in to hit them before they can fade away or roll back. I'll try testing it on Tai to see if I can get in on his Dtilts.

 

[Litt]

To be fair, if you are going to include jump squat in the summation of the frames, are you also including the frames it takes to put Samus in the 'slingshot' situation?
Two WD forward:
4 frame jump squat -> 10 frame landing -> 4 frame jump squat -> 10 frame landing = 28 frames
Slingshot:
?# Dash away -> ?# turn around -> #? let momentum carry -> 4 frame jump squat -> 10 frame landing = ?
If @ BillNyeTheSamusGuy 's rough frame data is correct, then these first three steps equal 14 frames and makes the total equal. However, I'm skeptical of that being true.

Additionally, this technique requires that you move away from your opponent first before moving in. This means that the distance it covers actually isn't more than two WDs since you lose ground first before gaining it. In the video Barbie posted, look at where Samus is standing before successfully doing the tech (the second attempt at about the 1 second mark). Clearly, Samus is a single WD distance away from doing an ftilt and hitting Pichu. After performing the tech, the lower angle ftilt hits just at Pichu. Unless it can be done much further, you aren't gaining a net movement of two WDs, you're only netting about one (+/-) while taking longer, using more precise movement, and shortly losing ground before gaining it. Tot his end, this tech does not cover the same options that two WDs does and it might not even be a fair comparison to draw.

Where I really think the usage of this tech can shine is on opponents that are safely retreating on their aerials. Playing a standard DD game and staying outside of reach of your opponent can be challenging when playing Puffs, Marths, etc. since hitting them while they are backing off is so hard. With this, I could see dashing away to escape an attack, and then slingshotting in to hit them before they can fade away or roll back. I'll try testing it on Tai to see if I can get in on his Dtilts.

The only reason it was being compared to two wavedashes was because of mervis insisting that 2 wavedashes are hands down a better option, in which case Nye and myself has to explain to him the implications of this tech.

As for the moving away, you can do this out of a dash dance very easily since it is very easy to mess up samus's dash dance and extend the dash into the run animation, so the first few times of using this, its possible your opponent will believe you just messed up and that it was not intentional

 

[Litt]

I bet Mervis would wreck Barbie in a ditto

I bet I would wreck you and Mervis in the ditto, shut up and get off my post

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

?# Dash away -> ?# turn around -> #? let momentum carry -> 4 frame jump squat -> 10 frame landing = ?
If @ BillNyeTheSamusGuy 's rough frame data is correct, then these first three steps equal 14 frames and makes the total equal. However, I'm skeptical of that being true.

I started counting frames from when you initiate the turnaround, so "?# turn around -> #? let momentum carry" equal about 14 frames. I didn't include the initial dash.

BTW it was cool seeing you in real life at press start Corigames!

 

[Corigames]

Yeah, nice seeing you too. Wish I got to be with the fleshy version of people more often.

 

[Mervis]

I've been thinking about this tech a lot as well as messing around with it, and I've been a little underwhelmed. In the situation of Samus dash dancing and you start the turnaround animation, 9/10 the other player will go for the punish. This isn't that bad, but the goal of this tech is to pressure them from a distance. That doesn't seem too likely in any situation. The wavedash increase doesn't feel like +3/4. It feels much much smaller. The wavedash back from the turnaround also feels gimped like I suspected. I only really played with it for 20 mins or so but I couldn't really accomplish a max distance wavedash out of the turnaround. Which means you are heavily committing to a forward poke. A Falcon knee could easily cover all the space behind the samus. Even if you aren't committing to the SLWD, you are kind of gimping your defensive options. Realistically, this is a niche tech. Kinda neat, but niche.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

I, the proud prince of the Super Saiyamuses

Reminds me that I sometimes wd backwards into an ftilt, for some reason the visuals aren't as easy to recognize that way. Plus the turnaround is immediate.

edit: saiya-min?

 

[Litt]

I've been thinking about this tech a lot as well as messing around with it, and I've been a little underwhelmed. In the situation of Samus dash dancing and you start the turnaround animation, 9/10 the other player will go for the punish. This isn't that bad, but the goal of this tech is to pressure them from a distance. That doesn't seem too likely in any situation. The wavedash increase doesn't feel like +3/4. It feels much much smaller. The wavedash back from the turnaround also feels gimped like I suspected. I only really played with it for 20 mins or so but I couldn't really accomplish a max distance wavedash out of the turnaround. Which means you are heavily committing to a forward poke. A Falcon knee could easily cover all the space behind the samus. Even if you aren't committing to the SLWD, you are kind of gimping your defensive options. Realistically, this is a niche tech. Kinda neat, but niche.

Again you really are really really really really incompetent, just because YOU are getting punished for it... doesn not mean it is easily punishable, when you notice your opponent coming in after you do the run turn around to punish you... YOU WAVEDASH BACK INTO UP TILT MID TURN AROUND, which is a bait into getting your opponent into approaching you because they believed you done messed up... you need to understand that this is a large distance you are trying to cover, and you will be exposed until the point of commitment, whether it be going forward into the extended distance to ftilt because you know your opponent isnt going to enter into the area between the SL and the WD, ORRRRR this is the big orrr... you can wavedash back during the SLWD to punish incoming approaches... your advice and critique is not wanted here, I have told you to get off my post 3 times now, so listen already and scram.

 

[Litt]

Reminds me that I sometimes wd backwards into an ftilt, for some reason the visuals aren't as easy to recognize that way. Plus the turnaround is immediate.

edit: saiya-min?

LMAO I never said I was the proud prince of anything, but at least you see that retreating options are useful for stuffing approaches that are intended on punishing advancement on your part. Mervis is so high on his scrubby epona that he doesn't recgonize how bad he is when he opens his mouth. He still hasn't even learned that he should be asking questions about utility, and then he will get answers that do not insult him, because the way he acts now, he think he knows his ****, and expect people to correct his arrogant ass when he openly says incorrect **** on a post that is at a level he shouldn't be talking at yet.

 

[dietsnapple89]

I bet I would wreck you and Mervis in the ditto, shut up and get off my post

2 vs 1 won't go so well for you

 

[Litt]

2 vs 1 won't go so well for you

The ditto implies 1 v 1s, otherwise it would be a tri ditto... or Candian ditto doubles... and I honestly doubt it would go that poorly for me, now Ill nicely ask to to get off my post as well, you are not welcomed either and you are just starting **** for no reason and wasting space, you now have a place on my ignore list, so pointless for you to reply, and since you have nothing of merit to contribute here and I won't see the garbage you post, its beyond pointless to post again, so bye bye ^_^

 

[Mervis]

LMAO I never said I was the proud prince of anything, but at least you see that retreating options are useful for stuffing approaches that are intended on punishing advancement on your part. Mervis is so high on his scrubby epona that he doesn't recgonize how bad he is when he opens his mouth. He still hasn't even learned that he should be asking questions about utility, and then he will get answers that do not insult him, because the way he acts now, he think he knows his ****, and expect people to correct his arrogant *** when he openly says incorrect **** on a post that is at a level he shouldn't be talking at yet.

I haven't once said anything about my credibility. I'm only dissecting the tech. You are delusional my friend.

If you wavedash back uptilt, wouldn't you get stuffed before the uptilt hitbox comes out? Even an ftilt would trade with the tilt and in neutral a knee is way better than an ftilt.

 

[Litt]

I haven't once said anything about my credibility. I'm only dissecting the tech. You are delusional my friend.

If you wavedash back uptilt, wouldn't you get stuffed before the uptilt hitbox comes out? Even an ftilt would trade with the tilt and in neutral a knee is way better than an ftilt.

If you are not a credible source or even reliable, why are you contributing anything? Finally, thought you are asking questions instead of making statements, so I will not respond to you with insults or hostility. Depending on the spacing, should you do the WD back before the slide forward animation from the SL the uptilt will come out in time, at the very worst trading with the knee but most likely beating it outright as the falcon will attempted to knee where you currently were in the slide animation or slightly forward from that believing you were trying to approach with it at first and get stuffed by the Up tilt. Should you be pressed and not have enough time for the appropriate distance for the up tilt, a high angled tilt should suffice

 

[Mervis]

If you are not a credible source or even reliable, why are you contributing anything?

Why are you credible?
A Falcon throwing out a knee is extremely fast. Like, beyond reaction time fast. You would have to predict he would approach with a knee for the uptilt to punish him. Can you shield during turnaround? I feel like that's really the only acceptable option.

 

[Litt]

Why are you credible?
A Falcon throwing out a knee is extremely fast. Like, beyond reaction time fast. You would have to predict he would approach with a knee for the uptilt to punish him. Can you shield during turnaround? I feel like that's really the only acceptable option.

Dude I am power ranked top 15 in my region, top samus... and I consistently take games off Swiftbass and Slox despite me not traveling anymore b/c of grad school, my credentials are not up for debate, yours are. I am not going to explain the game to you in baby steps, because it is for you to learn, I have put in the work and gotten to a level where I can give advice should I choose to, most of the time I choose not to. It honestly just sounds like you have trouble with the Falcon MU and should be posting for advice in the MU threads not posting on this tech of how to apply a specific tech to a MU you seeminlgy don't know well. How about you try loading up your gamecube, and trying to shield during turn around in practice mode... :O see what happens. Stop giving advice like i feel like thats the only acceptable option, because THERE ARE NO RIGHT OPTIONS, just correct ones based on your opponents ability to punish and read patterns.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

LMAO I never said I was the proud prince of anything, but at least you see that retreating options are useful for stuffing approaches that are intended on punishing advancement on your part.

Hm,.. I meant I wavedash towards them but facing the other way, not just wavedashing away from them.
Anyway how far away are you from Boston? I might visit there this year.

 

[Mervis]

I don't understand. You want discussion about the tech but you don't want everyone to discuss it. I am asking questions about the tech and you tell me to figure it out, but when I make a comment on it, you tell me I'm wrong. You realize instead of typing a wall of text you can just say yes or no. Literally advances the discussion without all the steam. What do you REALLY want here? Do you want to talk about a tech you think is viable? Or do you want to belittle everyone you think is below you?

 

[Litt]

I don't understand. You want discussion about the tech but you don't want everyone to discuss it. I am asking questions about the tech and you tell me to figure it out, but when I make a comment on it, you tell me I'm wrong. You realize instead of typing a wall of text you can just say yes or no. Literally advances the discussion without all the steam. What do you REALLY want here? Do you want to talk about a tech you think is viable? Or do you want to belittle everyone you think is below you?

I want people who have a solid fundamental understanding of the game to speak openly about their impressions of the tech in their experience of testing it out, I have continually told you to stop posting because what you are asking for is how to properly play the game and samus's neutral, and it has nothing to do with the tech. Certainly there are uses for the tech in neutral as explained before, but you are asking for specific match up advice and implications of your own poor decisions and inability to defend yourself well, this is not the place for it. This is not a, Lets Help Mervis thread, this is a discuss the implications of this tech I posited, should you be competent enough to understand its implications already, if you want to make a separate thread asking for help in certain areas of your game, vs certain match ups, using specific techs like this one, be my guest, but again, THIS THREAD IS NOT A PLACE FOR YOU TO PLAY 20 questions about stuff not relevant. Asking about a specific match up interaction has so many different facets and its not limited to the application of this tech specifically, you should know your damn spacing against falcon, and how fast you need to be able to react, where his reach extends, and how to play without getting hit. For the 5th time now, get off my post, you are not welcomed and haven't been since your 4th post. You have also earned your own place on my ignore list, congrats, I will no longer see or respond to any of your posts, because you clearly do not listen when someone tells you to stop posting in their thread.

I do not belittle everyone that is below me, Nye knows I am flat out better than him and we've played on netplay before, you don't see me ****ting on him like I am on you do you? No?! :o I wonder why, maybe its because I don't belittle people I think are worse than me, I belittle competent people who don't know when to shut up after they have been told they are wrong a bunch of times, and continue to post despite being unwelcomed by the poster of said thread.

 

[Litt]

Hm,.. I meant I wavedash towards them but facing the other way, not just wavedashing away from them.
Anyway how far away are you from Boston? I might visit there this year.

Im like 2 and a half hours :/

 

[Mervis]

You haven't really proven me wrong on anything. Every time you assume you do, you get upset that I don't just accept your word for it. You don't show any evidence to back up your claims, instead try to use your self deluded status to convince me. I think I'm asking pretty standard questions, still about the tech, that have gone relatively unanswered. The most response I've got back is "You are bad go away I'm Barbie." Why do you bring the hate man. I never came it flaunting an ego or malice and I'll I've received from you is a bunch of negative responses. I don't come here to troll you man, I want Samus to be a good character so I dissect whats given to find answers.

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

Why are you credible?
A Falcon throwing out a knee is extremely fast. Like, beyond reaction time fast. You would have to predict he would approach with a knee for the uptilt to punish him.

Not even reading the rest of the discussion; this is incorrect. Falcon knee comes out on frame 14 (that's just 4 frames better than samus grab!) which is 224 ms, just a smidge under the average reaction time of 250 ms. However, we're all competitive gamers here so our reaction times should be better than average (with some outliers having a reaction time under 10 frames!)

And that isn't even considering that the falcon is probably going to have to cover some horizontal distance to hit you--- making the knee more telegraphed and adding time for you to react.

SCIENCCCCCCCCCE

 

[dietsnapple89]

Barbie is a fraud

 

[Mervis]

Not even reading the rest of the discussion; this is incorrect. Falcon knee comes out on frame 14 (that's just 4 frames better than samus grab!) which is 224 ms, just a smidge under the average reaction time of 250 ms. However, we're all competitive gamers here so our reaction times should be better than average (with some outliers having a reaction time under 10 frames!)

And that isn't even considering that the falcon is probably going to have to cover some horizontal distance to hit you--- making the knee more telegraphed and adding time for you to react.

SCIENCCCCCCCCCE

Eeeey good stuff. Samus uptilt also comes out on frame 14. Including the wave dash back, that's 28 frames to setup the anti air. And I don't believe the first few hitboxes on Samus uptilt has priority over knee.This all seems highly technical just for a strange tech. Plus knee isn't even the best option for Falcon coverage.

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

You probably shouldn't be challenging knee head on. Space so that he'll whiff and aim to hit falcon after he does the knee but before/around the time he hits the ground.

Also, the amount of time it takes to execute the punish is mitigated by the fact you're moving during half of it. It doesn't matter if it takes 28 frames when the first 14 frames makes your opponent whiff.

 

[Mervis]

You probably shouldn't be challenging knee head on. Space so that he'll whiff and aim to hit falcon after he does the knee but before/around the time he hits the ground.

Also, the amount of time it takes to execute the punish is mitigated by the fact you're moving during half of it. It doesn't matter if it takes 28 frames when the first 14 frames makes your opponent whiff.

But what if he positions his knee to hit where you are and where you will be? If you remain still you will be hit, and if you wavedash back you will be hit. I'm pretty sure a knee could cover ahead of Samus too, but for the sake of the situation it won't. There's 2 situations you get knee'd, and one situation where he flies past you and returns to neutral. I thought the point of this tech was to not commit to it if under fire.

Also you cannot shield until the turnaround is done which is waaaaaay more dangerous than a wavedash.

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

Two things:

1) If we assume an slwd attempt, there's no reason to over extend the knee because, as this thread has demonstrated, turnaround is assumed to be super punishable.

2) If the falcon chooses to over extend you should be able to see it from the spacing he's at and just slwd through him or barring that triangle jump and return to neutral. Usually that'd be kinda bad but he just over extended in this scenario so you'll be fine.

Also you cannot shield until the turnaround is done which is waaaaaay more dangerous than a wavedash.

This is a little subjective, so I can't say you're wrong. But I do feel that this isn't a thorough comparison.

When you wavedash you can't do anything. When you turnaround you can jump. A falcon could potentially mess you up if you do a bad wavedash and/or get read.

EDIT: I just realized you can upb out of turnaround, which is almost as good as a shield.

 

[Corigames]

UpB on reaction and edge cancel it every time instead of tilts. Since C.F is in the air he can't CC it and is too heavy to get a solid punish. Also, you already have to have some situational awareness when playing against fast characters as Samus. For example, it's not theoretically possible to land a grab on anyone because it's so slow that good players can just get away from it, but with keen conditioning and pattern recognition, you can find yourself landing plenty of grabs. Similarly, if Falcon is flying in on you with knees, it's because you haven't been stuffing his approach. He's not scared of what you're doing, and so he's going to throw his weight around to knock you off balance. Once you do that, the Falcon will start spacing attacks to hit in a less risky way (like spaced Nairs or crossup attacks/whatnot) and then these sorts of tactics really come to light.

Besides, if you are in a position to get hit out of this tech, that means you did it early. You were anticipating an opening and tried to aggress with this gimmick, but instead got pressured with aerials from far away. I don't think that's a beneficial application of this move. I believe it's going to take a bit of a bait in order for this to have practical applications outside of shock/surprise value the first few times used. You lure them into doing a safe approach and then slingshot in on them before they get away. Such a tactic uses the running away and sped up approach to get in and doesn't leave yourself vulnerable to attacks during the start-up.

Pointing out the places where a move doesn't work doesn't undervalue the places where it does. As long as there's a situation where a move can be used solidly as either a go-to or mix-up, then I think it's reasonable to discuss it. If there are far better things to use then I would agree it's an unnecessary technique, but I know I can already see a few applications for it just from theory crafting.

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

Similarly, if Falcon is flying in on you with knees, it's because you haven't been stuffing his approach. He's not scared of what you're doing, and so he's going to throw his weight around to knock you off balance.

A little off topic but I've been having trouble with this. Like, I know my opponent is going to knee so I go to ftilt but just get knee'd instead. What tools do you use to stuff falcon approach?

 

[Mervis]

Up-b out of turnaround makes this a little more interesting for my position of devil's advocate. It can be done at ANY point during the turn around making the turnaround pretty safe. I mean you have to hit the up-b, but screw attack is mostly safe.

Let's talk wavedash extension. I personally haven't found it to be too far. I'm not saying I'm doing it optimally, but it seem's pretty lackluster. What's the most distance Samus can cover with this baby?

 

[Corigames]

@Astrophysics Black Guy
(Read the first sentence)
As long as it's not FD, and even then sometimes if you are near an edge, UpB against unsafely spaced aerials gets you a free 12% and reset. However, if you are reading a knee and want to punish it harder, it's going to depend on a lot of variables to give good advice like what stage, how far are they, what moves are they using, what %s you are at, etc. Though, I think this is s smidge off topic and you should probably just ask the question in the discussion thread.

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

Up-b out of turnaround makes this a little more interesting for my position of devil's advocate. It can be done at ANY point during the turn around making the turnaround pretty safe. I mean you have to hit the up-b, but screw attack is mostly safe.

Let's talk wavedash extension. I personally haven't found it to be too far. I'm not saying I'm doing it optimally, but it seem's pretty lackluster. What's the most distance Samus can cover with this baby?

When done optimally samus we'll end up a character length or two outside of the "wave" of the wave dash (this can be seen in barbie's vid). Plus, you can still slide and/or walk after it boosting the range.

 

[Mervis]

When done optimally samus we'll end up a character length or two outside of the "wave" of the wave dash (this can be seen in barbie's vid). Plus, you can still slide and/or walk after it boosting the range.

I'm in the lab and I can't really get it to go further than a regular wavedash EXCEPT when I turnaround right at the ledge. The turnaround seems like it happens faster on edge and increases the distance. Double check my work but I think I just sped up the slingshot.

It honestly just feels like a different dash>wavedash.

 

[343]

^are you talking about a teeter cancel / OTTOTTO cancel? (if you run toward the ledge, let go for at least 1 frame and go into the teeter animation, and dash back, you don't go through the run turnaround animation)

 

[tauKhan]

I'm in the lab and I can't really get it to go further than a regular wavedash EXCEPT when I turnaround right at the ledge. The turnaround seems like it happens faster on edge and increases the distance.

You're probably teeter canceling the run into dash back there. 343 beat me to it.

It honestly just feels like a different dash>wavedash.

And such it is. Unless you do turnaround out of moonwalk, you're going to have less or at most equal speed to dash. So during jumpsquat you slide similar amount. With samus 3 frames of jumpsquat I estimate it roughly to be around 6 units at most, so around 1 sdi length.