Skill vs. Tier

[Mehijunior]

read this topic from GFAQs (even though the topic could possibly be joke/troll, it's ticking me off so I take it here to get other opinions/arguers)

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=516492&topic=33416191

Perhaps my argument isn't as effectively articulated as it could be, but this guy just seems to be crazy (My username is AlphaQ, btw)

Opinions? Tier>skill or skill>tier?
if you read the thread, you know my opinion.

 

[Nashun]

It seem's pretty obvious that he's messing with you 0.o

 

[CWolf20]

I thoroughly agree with Nashun. He's trolling. As soon as he said he has never lost to anyone but a Fox, he had to be.

 

[h1roshi]

dont even worry about wat the other dude said....just let him b....peace

-hiroshi

 

[greenblob]

The tier list only applies at the top (pro) skill level.

 

[F8AL]

Gamefaq's Super Smash Bros. Melee message board is full of trolls. This is why I never listen to whatever they say.

 

[hrairoo]

That depressed me. I guess it also sort of makes me happy that I don't use gamefaqs. And F8AL is right, that board is full of trolls.

 

[Lightshade]

Okay, let me tell everyone a few things about tiers. Tiers are something used when either computers fight, or when determining which character would have the better chance of winning (Without knowing the skill of the players). As far as the thread in GameFAQs goes, the person who made that thread is trolling and is ignorant.

 

[wuthefwasthat]

on the contrary... tiers have nothing to do with computers...

skill>tier
i couldn't beat taj's mewtwo in 1000 years.
or dire's gaw, chu's pichu, arash's bowser, etc.
or azen's anything.

 

[Lightshade]

No, you are completely disreguarding what I said. I used computers for an example. Tiers have nothing to do with skill level. It matters on the character's attacks and attributes. Tiers can affect anything, they are just a measurement used by judges to determine who has the better chance of winning (Again, without applying skills).

 

[Mosk]

Trolling is too harsh for that case, those people are just having fun. And you need to wise up.

 

[Tera253]

No, you are completely disreguarding what I said. I used computers for an example. Tiers have nothing to do with skill level. It matters on the character's attacks and attributes. Tiers can affect anything, they are just a measurement used by judges to determine who has the better chance of winning (Again, without applying skills).

if tiers really are affected by cvomputeres, then how come Ganondorf is not in his own tier?

Tera believes that it's on the professional levels only for the most part.
~Tera253~

 

[MetalLuigi1209]

Skill>Tier
I can beat my friends Fox with a Pichu nuff ced.

 

[Lightshade]

The only reason I used computers as an example is because I know they have a set skill level and tiers can be determined easily using them as experiments.

-Tera, the reason Gannondorf isn't in his own Tier is pobably because he isn't the best or worst character in the Tiers.

EDIT: Metal Luigi, Tiers aren't skill based.

 

[Andross]

Skill is a lot more important than Tier, obviously.

Of course, it's better to have a nice mixture of Skills, and a character high up on the Tier list.

 

[Lightshade]

Yes, agreed. Tiers shouldn't be taken into account on as what character to focus on, I play as Link. He has his flaws, but isn't that what wavedashing is for?

 

[pikachun00b7]

Tier is just an illusion used to measure skill with ought a reasonable base to make that judgment.

 

[greenblob]

Everyone's saying skill>tier. Although skill with a certain character is the main deciding factor in determining who wins, "skill>tier" is a common mistake/misunderstanding. The tier list applies ONLY at the top level of play, where, although slight skill level differences exist, everyone is more or less equal in skill. The tier list does not apply among casual, intermediate, or even advanced players who are not of the "pro" level (that is, they are not able to present them any type of challenge). For instance, the tier list says Fox is the best character. This is not true at the beginner level. It is only true when the player is able to utilize all the known tactics correctly and fully.

 

[shadydentist]

well... i wouldn't put it that way. Its just that as you play against better people, it gets harder and harder to win with low-tier characters.

 

[Lightshade]

Well, not exactly. Then you're talking about metagaming, which proves nothing. Tiers just depend of the level of the character, not you. They only take effect on seeing two people fight for the first time or in matches. I also agree with what Greenblob has said.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Skill>Tier
I can beat my friends Fox with a Pichu nuff ced.

That proves something,yet it proves nothing as well....

 

[cradmazy_SKAG]

you watch a n00b fox play a professional mewtwo and tell me tier > skill... ugh

well rounded talent > only strong mindgames > only strong techskill > tier

 

[Gimpyfish62]

skill in tier selection > all

XD

boozer ftw and the rest <3

 

[AlphaZealot]

Well, not exactly. Then you're talking about metagaming, which proves nothing. Tiers just depend of the level of the character, not you. They only take effect on seeing two people fight for the first time or in matches. I also agree with what Greenblob has said.

Everyone in this thread should read delph's new thread, it will explain tiers for you. Essentially the current tier list is a snap shot of how good each character roughly was when the list was made, but the tier list evolves as tactics change. In the early days of smash (when even the smash vetarans were youngin's), we (or rather they, the creators of the list) niavely made the tier list a list of what was considered to be "a characters potential" this of course meant when people realized Fox was freaking awesome, he jumped to the top immediately (and this was roughly right at the time too). The reality is differant, we cannot prove what sort of potential one character has over another without the reliance on the metagame and looking at tournament results (mainly among the top 25-50 players in the country, or so, and usually discluding the top 2 or 3 players). Why disclude players? Well, not everyone is Jordan or Tiger Woods, those types of people come along so seldom and nearly unmatched in skill to the point where their efforts cannot be mimicked (example, aside from Ken, what Marth player has stood out in the country? Mew2King is beginning to make a run for it, but aside from him, almot no other Marth player has made an impact).

Calling for a character tier list deviod of human skill level is pointless, stupid in fact. Why? It would be completely arbitrary. For example, I will claim that the Ice Climbers have a move that will end a characters life with one grab against any character on any level. This alone puts the Ice Climbers at either first or second, depending on how much you wanna argue "but Fox could shine every freaking attack" (this logic fails because you could then power shield every attack and every character would have to be equal). The reality is that only a handful of people in the country are good enough to one)land A grab against other good opponants and 2)have that grab be the one that is spaced correctly to wobble. Now, its actually quite easy to wobble, many have since learned to do it, but they still get destroyed, and that is because in all this there is still a human factor that must be considered.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

and THAT is why bowser is so f-ing good.


wait that response makes no sense, i'll just agree with alpha XD

 

[Lightshade]

Yes, I agree as well. The Tiers prove nothing in terms of human skill, like Alpha said, there is always the human factor to add in.

 

[Wrath`]

I've been kicking azz with Ness and i know him to be low tier.So skills will beat tiers all the time

 

[Wak]

I always said

Mindgames > skill > tier > mindgames > skill > tier > mind...

 

[gbursine]

Tiers are based on character matchups, assuming that each character is played at their best ability(known at the current time).

They are merely a guide, since everybody doesn't play charaters at the highest level(i.e. fox vs pichu....pichu wins (wtf)).

though, despite this, there is an underlying japanese mentality that has proven true (for those not stubborn), where they pick one character, and play it to death(which is why, you will see crazy **** with lower tiered characters.)

 

[swordgard]

I always said

Mindgames > skill > tier > mindgames > skill > tier > mind...

Something which is utterly false, wak, for you cannot mindgame if you do not have the tech(i suppose thats what u mean with skill) necessary then u dont have enough options and your mindgames are very limited. And making a rock paper scissors type doesnt work. Although tiers are important, i believe that if you are mindgamish enough then you can bring out anything to beat the higher tiered opponent. For exemple, being a mewtwo does require a lot of tech skill( i can tell), but it is not this which shall make you win versus a marth. It is only mindgame for no mater how technical you are, if you cant get in reach for a grab or anything else cause of marths friggin range, yeah tech wont help you much. You gotta mindgame your way in.

 

[Ba1100n_Drag0n]

I'm afraid to respond because I'll make myself look like an idiot.
Where IS the Tier List, anyways?
(see the irony?)

 

[Miharu]

The Search function is very useful for finding things, use it ^^

Don't take anything from GameFAQs seriously, the majority of the posts there are utter garbage. Back on topic, Skill > Tiers.

 

[Junpappy]

The Search function is very useful for finding things, use it ^^

Don't take anything from GameFAQs seriously, the majority of the posts there are utter garbage. Back on topic, Skill > Tiers.

QFT....both parts.

 

[Wak]

Something which is utterly false, wak, for you cannot mindgame if you do not have the tech(i suppose thats what u mean with skill) necessary then u dont have enough options and your mindgames are very limited. And making a rock paper scissors type doesnt work. Although tiers are important, i believe that if you are mindgamish enough then you can bring out anything to beat the higher tiered opponent. For exemple, being a mewtwo does require a lot of tech skill( i can tell), but it is not this which shall make you win versus a marth. It is only mindgame for no mater how technical you are, if you cant get in reach for a grab or anything else cause of marths friggin range, yeah tech wont help you much. You gotta mindgame your way in.

I'll only reply back on this sentence from you, because of your mass load of personal opinions in one paragraph that makes sense in your head but doesn't in mine:

"you cannot mindgame if you do not have the tech" -Swordgard

Did you know that I was able to kill Vegetto2k2 as well as many other very skilled ontarians only with my fox and his upsmash? They were able to 0-death me while I wasn't even able to shine into one wavedash. Why was I able to win against them? My mindgames.

Chester met somebody a while ago, he was unable to pull off the advanced techniques, though he was even with chester because he was full of mindgames. (though it was around 2002 -2003, it's still fact.

No one really thinks Aniki has a mass load of tech skill, still he can beat this freaky masashi, and he almost beat Shu and his sheik with samus.

People without mindgames cannot see mindgames, therefore they can't see how important mindgames are, and they are according to me WAY more important than tech skill.

 

[AlphaZealot]

And yet if anyone of those players decided to pick up more tech skill they would become even better. All technical skill does is add iterations and new scenarios to your attack. I hate it when people bring up the aniki example. Aniki has technical skill, he essentially does everything an advanced link/samus player should do with exception to wavedashing, which is easily compensated for by simply shorthopping backwards and throwing a boomer/bomb/missle.

Here is an example: I'm able to beat people with lots of technical skill using one hand because I will play smarter. However, people who I'm on roughly the same skill plane as me I would probably not be able to beat with one hand because my technical abilities greatly diminish with one hand. In the end, you win at Smash because you were SMARTER than the other opponant. However, at the higher levels, where everyone is smart, you NEED the technical skill in place simply to keep up with the other player.

The 2002/2003 era was notorious for not really having technical skill. The technical gap in that time frame between a relative newby and a competitive player was really not very pronounced and especially not as pronounced as it is today. Things have changed though, and just about any competitive player can just whip out Falco and shl/pillar/combo a casual player with relative ease.

My Fox is very technical, the only thing it lacks is the short hop double laser out of the shine, but for all intents and purposes my fox loses to people that my Pichu can beat. Why? I'm not smart with fox, I use the same entry over and over and I don't abuse his kill moves (usmash/uair/fsmash), instead, I try to go for shine combo's that really serve no purpose. This doesn't say that mindgames will always beat technical skill. PC Chris would be no match for KoreanDJ if he couldn't wavedash out of a shine or walltech, those technical aspects of Fox/Falco are so important that without them he would simply not be able to keep up with someone else of his caliber of thinking. The problem with your examples Wak is that you aren't comparing two likes. You are essentially comparing two players who aren't of equal skill or experiance, because in the end "mindgames" and "technical skill" aren't competing. Technical skill simply adds dimensions to a players game, which as the game progresses reveals that the characters with the most (in quantity and quality) iterations/fakes/approaches/mix ups will be the characters that dominate the game because smart players will use these things and integrate them into their game. My fox has one approach, so it gets destroyed by anyone who can learn from their mistakes. Now Falco on the other hand has at least a half dozen or dozen approaches, and my Doc/Peach has even more than that. You can liken it to football, where most coaches will never repeat the same play twice because once one play happens they assume the defense will read it next time. Could an NFL team dominate a college team simply using one play? Yes, but that isn't comparing two likes (just as me saying that I can beat randomscrub309 who can waveshine with fox and is technically sound but has never been to a tournament is also not comparing two likes).

 

[Hal-Yur-Azn-Pal]

Skill ftw.

Tier ftl

Skill makes the character what it is. Where they are on the Tier list doesn't.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

anyone who thinks tiers aren't important should try picking up bowser for a while, then get back to me on that one.

i mean like play bowser and only bowser in a tourney or two. tier list owns my face lol

 

[psykoplympton]

Skill is way more important than teirs. I beat my friends falco with kirby. The teir list only says which characters are LIKELY to win/lose based on the a characters advantages or disadvantages. The list only assumes every person has the same skill level, which they dont.

 

[MaskedMarth]

I don't think Skill vs. Tiers is really part of "Smash theory" - we just use it to teach the newbs that the tier list does not guarantee that a high tier will beat a low tier.

Personally, I consider tiers a parameter to skill, rather than something separate. I define "skill" to be a player's overall ability to win. A person's potential skill expands by choosing a higher tier character, or restricts by choosing a lower tier character.

 

[Tsukuyomi]

Well, of course a players skills beats the idea of tier lists... Tier list is just a popularity poll of character usage, that doesn't really mean they are the superior character amongst them all, well maybe... If two newbie Smash player, and I mean completely new, were to battle it out, would the tiers still mean anything???

I morely believe that every character in the game is created a fair fight among every other character... Even with the abused "glitches", I still believe that there isn't to great advantage over one another... The only advantage I find is "Who plays more Smash and benifits its game time???"...

Mindgames > skill > tier > mindgames > skill > tier > mind...

I find mindgames are a part of skills... You have to learn how to give your opponent some sort of mental disorder, and whatever is learnt is usually known as a skill... Unless if it was something like my case for example:

1. I'm a girl
2. I main Pichu, Peach, and Roy (getting around with Bowser and Falco) *basically low tiers*

Now take that to a local tournament of a bunch of guys or a match with a stranger and you automatically give your opponent a bit of the mindgame already... If it was male stranger who has no clue who I am, I could go for the cheesy line such as "I'm no good at this game...", "Be easy on me, ohkay" and such and you kinda already imagine what they do... Also, the first win I get will increase tension to my opponent, thus I get more points for later on... Though, I haven't really tested this on SSBM, but on other games like Tekken 5, Soul Calibur, and other games, this "mindgame" seems to work well so I should get the somewhat same result when playing SSBM... Hoi, psychology is so much fun...