since its hopeless against D3...

[i1337]

i just picked up falco :D

 

[UTDZac]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZx64HqiCZs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVpXj6Wbxco

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0svB5KhdAn0

these are old but the most recent, about a month old. I usually win against him in 3/5 now

These videos made me cry.

 

[Ripple]

These videos made me cry.

I just read your post on the DDD infinite thread, I don't really care if you think he is bad; because he got 3rd and 12th at a circuit event without infiniting because he plays with honor and not some ****y attitude like you

 

[Tujex]

I just read your post on the DDD infinite thread, I don't really care if you think he is bad; because he got 3rd and 12th at a circuit event without infiniting because he plays with honor and not some ****y attitude like you

LOL Ripple totally just own'd this guy with nothing more than eight fingers and a keyboard!

 

[DADdedede]

i'd say d3's worst matchups are olimar and falco hands down

 

[UTDZac]

I just read your post on the DDD infinite thread, I don't really care if you think he is bad; because he got 3rd and 12th at a circuit event without infiniting because he plays with honor and not some ****y attitude like you

FYI

I'm completely for the ban on DDD's infinite. My statement in the DDD thread is lame because I purposely exaggerated the fact that DDD's infinite really is that gay. It's stupid that it out-right beats DK players, but when money is at stake, people don't give a crap.


Approaching a DDD as DK is very difficult. I'm not claiming to be able to do it correctly. "Don't get grabbed" is easier said than done. I would probably have just as hard of a time not getting grabbed (like you did in your vid). It's way to hard to space with DK.

I didn't like the videos because I don't like your style of DK for that particular matchup. This is not to say you are not a good DK player. But it's to point out that these videos aren't much help for learning how to space/approach a DDD (whether he infinites or not)

EDIT:
Summary:
+1 for DK players
-1 for stupid Infinites
+1 for Ripple's DK
-1 for Ripple's DK's play-style against DDD

 

[_OraNoS_]

LOL Ripple totally just own'd this guy with nothing more than eight fingers and a keyboard!

He has two thumbs, too!

and Zac, can you elaborate a bit more on what you didn't like about his style vs. Dedede? (I guess I didn't quite get what you meant)

 

[UTDZac]

Sure.

1) I saw too many Fairs. I shouldn't have saw any.

2) Either he wasn't concentrating very hard or his spacing was off. Practically the only thing you care about when playing against a DDD is not getting grabbed. A grab when infinites are allowed = death, and otherwise it's as bad as a Bowser Fsmash, or worse (dmg wise). Watch how many times he just openly runs at the DDD. Even though THAT DDD didn't grab at every opportunity, you have to assume worst case scenario. You would have been grabbed, -1 stock.

3) Again with the spacing thing. It's so important, not even funny. I play against FOGO and he punishes every stupid mistake I make with my G&W. He refuses to play against my DK because it's so unfair (not because of the infinite). He understands the matchup well and knows exactly what to wait for.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I just read your post on the DDD infinite thread, I don't really care if you think he is bad; because he got 3rd and 12th at a circuit event without infiniting because he plays with honor and not some ****y attitude like you

Oh. My. God. I loathe this "play with honor" bull**** that is spreading on the boards right now. Nothing has irked me more than that. I'm not trying to talk down your post or anything, Ripple. I'm just saying that I absolutely loathe that terminology. Its become the new cry of the scrub. Cheap has become "playing without honor." Its the same thing.

 

[Tujex]

Oh. My. God. I loathe this "play with honor" bull**** that is spreading on the boards right now. Nothing has irked me more than that. I'm not trying to talk down your post or anything, Ripple. I'm just saying that I absolutely loathe that terminology. Its become the new cry of the scrub. Cheap has become "playing without honor." Its the same thing.

It's true. Do what you have to do to win should be the context. This isn't some crappy martial arts movie...its Smash. Gay'ing is part of the game, so people should learn to deal with it.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

When Brawl came out I never saw this honor thing coming. I was used to the "your not playing fair" crap from the scrubs in melee, but I thought that Brawl was simple enough that we wouldn't have to hear this argument.

The facts of life:

People will always find something to complain about.
People with honor will always lose.
Three horns don't play with long necks.

Deal with it.

 

[Tujex]

Three horns don't play with long necks.

Deal with it.

ROFL!

That made my day

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

When Brawl came out I never saw this honor thing coming. I was used to the "your not playing fair" crap from the scrubs in melee, but I thought that Brawl was simple enough that we wouldn't have to hear this argument.

The facts of life:

People will always find something to complain about.
People with honor will always lose.
Three horns don't play with long necks.

Deal with it.

Wasn't this the whole point of "no johns" in the first place? Seriously, enough with the honor johns.

 

[UTDZac]

It's unfair, but it's true. It does happen.

When has life been fair?

Would it make everyone happy if MK/DDD's Dthrow/Snake (sometimes) didn't exist in Brawl?

 

[highandmightyjoe]

Just to get us back on topic, if you do decide for some reason to stay DK against DDD, what is the best stage for the matchup? I usually counter Japes for most characters, is it effective for DDD? My experience with him says it doesn't help much, but maybe thats just me.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Anything that moves or has lava. Brinstar, Norfair, Rainbow Cruise, or (to a lesser extent) Delfino. Those are probably your best bet. I think Norfair is the best of those, because its bigger than Brinstar so you can jump around to avoid getting grabbed.

 

[Tujex]

I mean, every character has bad match-ups. That's why its recommend to learn at least 3 characters to make up for another character's weakness.

DDD has several bad match-ups, and most of them are characters who make good secondaries for DK mainers anyway.

 

[UTDZac]

Norfair is a great stage as you can punish DDD's shield with bair and upB (cancelling to ledges all over the place). Plus his chaingrab will only hit you for 25% max (Dthrow --> Bthrow)

 

[Jmex]

Quick random question. DDD can infinite Bowser correct? Thats in addition to luigi, samus, and a few others, or am i wrong?

 

[UTDZac]

Quick random question. DDD can infinite Bowser correct? Thats in addition to luigi, samus, and a few others, or am i wrong?

He can truly infinite Mario, Luigi, Samus, Donkey Kong.
He can infinite Bowser simply by walking forward very slightly, so it might as well be an infinite.
He can also infinite other DDDs but only if they are thrown off the stage after the down-throw.

 

[Jmex]

He can truly infinite Mario, Luigi, Samus, Donkey Kong.
He can infinite Bowser simply by walking forward very slightly, so it might as well be an infinite.
He can also infinite other DDDs but only if they are thrown off the stage after the down-throw.

Hmmm, i see, i wonder if Bowser can up b or jab to escape the "Infinite".

 

[itsthebigfoot]

@ zac, i played fogo when i went to dallas, i mm'd him, and he beat me, but it seemed fairly even, i lost the first match cause i was screwing around and went for an offstage punch

EDIT: jmex, i play bowser a lot, he can't get out. luigi has the best shot since he can wiggle out before 50% and doesn't get normal cg'd

 

[Jmex]

^ I see, alright thanks.

 

[rayman1234]

IMO falco. chaingrab to spike is fun to do on them. Camping with the laser is cool too if they decide to just sit back and throw waddle dees. Also, Falco can't get chaingrabbed by D3.

 

[Jmex]

Ive always been tempted to try out Falco, seeing as how hes a "good" alternative for the counters that DK has to face.

 

[A2ZOMG]

dedede can grab through the turtle, that's why it's even, so no, you can't space bairs to avoid the shield grab

No he can't.

If he tries to grab through the turtle while it's hitting his shield, he gets hit. And G&W CAN space so that he can't be shieldgrabbed. A DDD main confirmed this in our matchup thread. I've tried this out myself and I have also been able to outspace DDD's shieldgrab. DDD also only has one good KO move (U-tilt), and it's easy for G&W to avoid, meaning DDD takes quite a few risks actually trying to KO G&W. G&W also is a character that is able to OUTCAMP DDD. Believe it or not, Chef camping is better than DDD's Waddle Dee camping (which he shouldn't do in the first place in this matchup partly because G&W hits through it, and also because Waddle Doo = free Bucket).

Also, DDD has zero ability to grab G&W's B-air once his shield is worn down by an attack. His F-tilt, his only "reliable" poke in this matchup, is punishable out of shield by G&W.

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

G&W ***** this match up in my opinion. But that's only me.

 

[ph00tbag]

I main ZSS and second DK. Needless to say, I go ZSS. She doesn't necessarily beat the accursed penguin outright, but she certainly gives him more trouble than most.

 

[Ripple]

brand new videos form me played on tuesday, however, they are of my jiggs


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfPhX3PktQ8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j36vmPNeQUY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0OIDYAhQIk

 

[blackanese]

great post A2ZOMG

anyways personally in my opinion, i dont think g&w is a huge counter against ddd, but it is somewhat

olimar is a great counter in my opinion. i also think jiggs do pretty well x]

 

[UTDZac]

@itsthebigfoot: No offense but I doubt any DK player can beat Fogo in a Money match. It's just not possible against a DDD with an excellent grab game. When money is on the line the DDD will infinite you (duh it's free money). In his defense, I don't see a reason why Fogo would have wanted to easily three stock you.

No he can't.

If he tries to grab through the turtle while it's hitting his shield, he gets hit. And G&W CAN space so that he can't be shieldgrabbed. A DDD main confirmed this in our matchup thread. I've tried this out myself and I have also been able to outspace DDD's shieldgrab. DDD also only has one good KO move (U-tilt), and it's easy for G&W to avoid, meaning DDD takes quite a few risks actually trying to KO G&W. G&W also is a character that is able to OUTCAMP DDD. Believe it or not, Chef camping is better than DDD's Waddle Dee camping (which he shouldn't do in the first place in this matchup partly because G&W hits through it, and also because Waddle Doo = free Bucket).

Also, DDD has zero ability to grab G&W's B-air once his shield is worn down by an attack. His F-tilt, his only "reliable" poke in this matchup, is punishable out of shield by G&W.

Yes. He can.

DDD can shieldgrab G&W's turtle. FOGO has done it to me numerous times. You wait til the third hit of the turtle attack. FOGO hardly kills me with utilt anymore because it's so difficult to land when the G&W knows about it. Fresh bair and tricky fair work wonders, you'd be surprised.
That and DDD can never give G&W a free bucket from waddle camping, if you throw a Doo, just throw two more waddles and it disappears..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQAyWsTOrUs G&W vs. DDD
@1:20 He throws a waddle doo then removes it before I can get a bucket
@1:25 DDD fair KO
@2:56 DDD bair KO

---

Anyway this is a discussion about DDD vs. DK.

Glad to see new videos up Ripple. I'll check 'em in a second.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yes. He can.

DDD can shieldgrab G&W's turtle. FOGO has done it to me numerous times. You wait til the third hit of the turtle attack. FOGO hardly kills me with utilt anymore because it's so difficult to land when the G&W knows about it. Fresh bair and tricky fair work wonders, you'd be surprised.

No, you can't be shieldgrabbed unless you have bad spacing.

Learn to space better. It's not that hard to stay outside of DDD's shieldgrab.

Exactly, see, DDD's ONLY kill moves in this matchup are random aerials, which he can't hit you with unless you make a mistake. G&W has fullhop F-air and edgeguard tricks on DDD that are much more reliable than anything DDD has on G&W for KOing.

His B-air is good, but is not as disjointed as yours. His F-air is a bit laggy. Honestly, if you ask me, you should be watching out more for F-smash than anything else since that actually has safe ending lag AND outranges you.

That and DDD can never give G&W a free bucket from waddle camping, if you throw a Doo, just throw two more waddles and it disappears..

Hit DDD away and you'll get your free bucket. You can powershield the attack and then go punish him.

Besides, that doesn't even matter when you consider G&W OUTCAMPS DDD anyway.

His F-tilt and D-tilt are not safe on block in this matchup either.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

@ zac, i accepted the money match on the grounds that the infinite was banned

EDIT: a2, you can grab through the turtle, i'm getting really tired of you being wrong so often, because you post like you know what you're talking about, and you really don't

 

[A2ZOMG]

No, it happens like this. You can't grab G&W's B-air while it's still hitting your shield no matter which character you are. All standard grabs are 6 frames, INCLUDING DDD's, and it's not fast enough to reliably shieldgrab the B-air WHILE it's hitting your shield.

B-air on his shield, these are the possible results.

1. He mistimes the grab and gets hit.
2. I misspace and he grabs me out of the landing lag.
3. I space right and he can't grab me.

Those are the 3 scenarios. Only one of them is in his favor.

This also assumes DDD's shield is full, and B-air isn't G&W's only reliable shield pressure technique.

I've played InsomniaK and his DDD live btw.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

moves out of shield don't always have the same startup time. perfect example is luigi, jumpcanceled upb activates frame 1 oos, frame 5-6ish non oos

now, i have grabbed game and watch while he is hitting my shield with a bair, it's very simple, count 3 hits then buffer the grab so it comes out on the first frame every time. dedede's shield grab range is larger than the turtle, your spacing means nothing

also, insomniak is a gdubs main, why would gdubs matter? it's like me saying i know the pikachu matchup because i played mikehaze's pikachu in person (i do know the matchup though, due to the 3 nearby pika mains). play teba or aero in person, gdubs vs d3, then tell me what happens

 

[A2ZOMG]

now, i have grabbed game and watch while he is hitting my shield with a bair, it's very simple, count 3 hits then buffer the grab so it comes out on the first frame every time. dedede's shield grab range is larger than the turtle, your spacing means nothing

If he fullhops an aerial, you can't grab him out of it, and you don't have any other good OOS options to punish it. He can fullhop F-air your shield, then start poking around it, and if he has balls, he can F-air, and then do a B-air on your shield BEHIND YOU.

The tactic you mention only works if G&W SH B-airs in front of DDD.

 

[UTDZac]

@A2ZOMG I don't understand why you like fighting.

Simply put, I played a match against Fogo's DDD as G&W. Occasionally when I bair his shield and before I land, I get shieldgrabbed. This has actually happened. I have seen it with my own eyes. I have taken damage for it. =(
You can't tell me that this doesn't exist or can never happen.

I'm not saying being shieldgrabbed is unavoidable. I found it is possible to space the bair in such a way as to not get shieldgrabbed, however this doesn't eliminate the fact that it is possible to get shieldgrabbed without good spacing.

Since Fsmash is unspammable, I have decided to never "challenge" it, or approach it, with any of G&W's attacks. Usually you can get through, but it's never worth it. The attack cannot be spammed against you without consequence and therefore is not a good attack option for DDD. All you have to do is wait.


The matchup in my opinion is very even. It looks like and feels like an advantage for G&W, but when both player's understand the other's character, techniques, and gameplay style the matchup because very tough for both. I find DDD's shield is the key. When his shield gets low and he backs off to replenish it, that makes it all the more difficult for G&W to do anything.

 

[Commander_Beef]

Hehehe you guys can all shut up.

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

Falco is a pretty obvious choice.

OR!!!!

You could do the cool thing and play Fox.

 

[Ripple]

Falco is a pretty obvious choice.

OR!!!!

You could do the cool thing and play Fox.

or be a man and play falcon