Silver Tongue: Move Analysis Changes and Tips

[Airborne]

Fsmash is just as good as it was in previous iterations. His head still moves back on frame 1 to punish anyone that tries to thump Yoshi on the nose, it's still a fantastic move for punishing landing lag, and I believe it has the shortest ending lag of the 3 smash attacks on whiff (which I've occasionally thrown out at a distance to bait anyone trying to score a whiff punish).

The only issue with Fsmash is that it's just undermined by Yoshi's other kill options in terms of speed and versatility. Usmash, Nair, and Dair are the best OoS options; DownB is still the best at shield poking, shield breaking, and what not; and then Dsmash is great for horizontal range, covering multiple options, and just getting the opponent offstage.

Also, to elaborate on Scatz's definition of an anti-air, it's generally just whatever moves that:
-Extend the character's hitboxes in directions that can punish common and primarily dominant aerials
-Reduce the character's hurtboxes in ways that can make specific aerials whiff
-Are reliable enough to react with

Common anti-airs Capcom fighters would be:
-Morrigan's Shadow Blade
-Wolverine's c.M in MvC3
-Spider-man's c.M, st.M, st.H, st.L, Spider Sting
-Any invincible move that leads with a hitbox in a(n) forward/upward direction

There are more uncommon (and thus, less versatile) anti-airs, such as:
-Ryu's c.MK in SF4
-Wolverine's c.L in MvC3

The common examples are used to display the first characteristic of an anti-air, while the uncommon examples are used for the second characteristic. Any move that doesn't have the last characteristic is not considered a strong anti-air since a character without a reliable anti-air would have to deal with characters approaching with jump-ins more frequently in order to condition the player to throw out moves in anticipation.

Oh, lord, why am I making massive posts again? This isn't SRK.

 

[Nikes]

The problem with Fsmash now though is it does literally nothing when they're in your face, your head-the only hitbox of this move now-goes right past them.

Edit: Shiri we can still angle Fsmash but it's barely noticable. Like, you're almost better off not angling it in the firsy place :/

 

[Shiri]

The problem with Fsmash now though is it does literally nothing when they're in your face, your head-the only hitbox of this move now-goes right past them.

Edit: Shiri we can still angle Fsmash but it's barely noticable. Like, you're almost better off not angling it in the firsy place :/

Regarding angling, I think that's a bit hasty. I think the move absolutely sucks, but even small angles can make a difference in the right situation. I am willing to put forward smash on my "situational" list with the angles playing into that idea (if they're applicable at all).

Fsmash is just as good as it was in previous iterations. His head still moves back on frame 1 to punish anyone that tries to thump Yoshi on the nose, it's still a fantastic move for punishing landing lag, and I believe it has the shortest ending lag of the 3 smash attacks on whiff (which I've occasionally thrown out at a distance to bait anyone trying to score a whiff punish).

I think the move has continued to get worse over time. Part of the reason the move had a nice in Yoshi's gameplay over all these games is because it was one of his few grounded ways to KO. Obviously that has changed over time and his aerial KO options have also become less risky, so I do agree that the move is outshined. However, another reason the move was niche is because Yoshi used to be so much bigger that the squishing and stretching nature of the move created very interesting illusions on characters that were trying to space well.

As time has progressed, Yoshi has become smaller and smaller and now he even stands upright--all of these work to the detriment of forward smash's niche since the spacing concept on Yoshi is more in line with that of other characters. A smaller body means enemies have to get closer to attack and the upright stance means that the pullback matters less because of the lack of a "target" with Yoshi's nose/cranium in his old stance. Now, I'm not going to say that the pullback isn't valuable, but I find it much less reliable and overall considering everything else Yoshi is capable of, I find fewer and fewer reasons to rely on a mechanic like that.

Back when Smash was a bit slower and the game was more mental, something like this was useful because tactics were a bit more obvious and because Yoshi used to be much heavier also, making grounded tactics a little less risky than aerial ones due to crouch canceling and the ability to shield/powershield/parry on the ground when you can't in the air. As the games sped up and became more reactionary, this tactic fizzled (appropriately) because people could fire off a million actions a second and you never had a really clear shot to use something like this outside of mistakes (which shouldn't be considered honestly) and certain matchups (which is great for consideration). Now, when I want to go back to the tactic of pulling myself back to make something whiff, I think to myself "why not just use my amazing mobility instead?" I think this leads to smarter play in the long run and plays more toward the natural strengths of the character as opposed to the niche strength of one move in a specific situation.

Besides, the dead zone and lack of active frames are what REALLY kill the move for me. I would not be surprised if either of Yoshi's jabs had more active frames than forward smash. I think there are too many things that can go wrong even when you react correctly with this move. Some of it I am more than willing to chalk up to me not adjusting to the different spacings and timings, but I feel like if I have to work this hard for a move that's less-than-ridiculous, maybe I could be putting that energy into something a bit more productive.

 

[Lukingordex]

I believe your guys are underrating yoshi's Fsmash.

I have to agree it's range and active frames are kind of patetic, but that doesn't means fsmash is not reliable. In this game, reads are going to happen, and you can land one if you're smart enough. It has decent knockback making it a very rewarding move.

Also, if you miss, you will almost always have enough time to avoid being punished because it doesn't have much lag, unless you're spamming it or something.

 

[BadKarma]

ok so usually when a player grabs the ledge, drops off, then grabs the ledge again I go in for a Dsmash since when they regrab the ledge they don't have invincibility. I was playing against a good captain falcon player today and when he would regrab the ledge, I would Dsmash and nothing would happen. Has anybody had anything like this happen? Falcon is the first character where I've seen this happen. I'm assuming its because his hurtbox is lower than most characters when grabbing the ledge.

Edit: Tried it in training mode and the only attack that hit on the ledge while we are on stage is egg throw -_-

I tried the same thing with little mac, and mac is still able to attack falcon with Dtilt while falcon is holding the ledge.

So the Dsmash hit box doesn't go low enough to punish a ledge regrab with falcon.....I wonder what other characters we can't punish for it. (besides running off and bairing them)

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

I don't really have a way to test this but I've been trying to find our regrab punish and idk what it is. I've been doing run off bairs but i think Maybe a down angled fsmash might be the option. Never remembered to try though.

Edit: i was looking for one because i can't seem to get dsmash to ever work. Also everything probably works on us because our nose peeks over the ledge

 

[BadKarma]

Yeah I don't have anyway to test it either besides sitting on the ledge and letting lvl 9's try to hit me off. Ftilt angled down might work too, not the best punish though.

 

[Shiri]

Wow, amazing timing, I was thinking about this while I was playing this morning.

Things to try:
- down angled forward smash
- down angled forward tilt
- down tilt
- dash attack (you never know)
- up smash (you REALLY never know)
- short hop down air (do it for the vine)

 

[Sinister Slush]

Dtilt Ftilt angled down and Dair were my best guesses for punishing people who regrab the ledge.

 

[Steinway]

Has nobody considered a short hop forward air? You can do it from the stage with very minimal risk. It's such a free ledge regrab punish and guarantees a KO on almost every character, even at low %s. It's a little riskier on characters like Samus, Ness, Villager, etc. since they can punish/wall out with their forward aerials and projectiles. Other option would be to short hop off stage and B reverse Egg Lay... you know, for the Vine. Both are pretty demoralizing.

 

[AetherStorm]

Well this is awkward. Glitches aside, Yoshi is obviously a very good character. I've been having a lot of trouble with him online recently, and I just want to see if you guys have any good counter strategies. You Yoshi players seem to be very good at keeping pressure with eggs, dairs, etc. Eggs are especially annoying, as I've gotten hitstun locked by eggs, to the point where I just give up trying to DI out and hope they miss. I've tried playing a multitude of characters against Yoshi, and the only one I've had any success with was Ganondorf. (By way of a lucky fsmash.) I can pick up almost any character, so if you guys have any strategies with any character, please, say something.

I'm dying over here.

 

[Nikes]

Shield our aerial approaches while looking out for egg lay which can snag you right out of it, and try to stay grounded I suppose.

 

[Shiri]

Run away.

Yoshi loses to runaway like he always has.

The rest relies on you being a good player and not making stupid decisions.

 

[Dyz]

to provide my opinion as a Yoshi player, i ended up having two bad match ups so far, and im actually compelled to make a thread about it, but im trying to get more experience or maybe find someone else who has posted the answer already, anyways, i have a hard time fighting againts Ness and Lucario heres why

Ness has a Dthrow combo that builds up damage quickly
his air moves just seem to have better range and priority than yoshi,
between eggs vs pk powers its a matter of accuracy and skill on who gets to dodge and counter attack
and finally, his dang Bthrow just kills me since i get cought in a pk fire and im just dead

Lucario if i dont kill him quickly he can do an amazing comeback his Aura power-up is just ridiculous with extended range and extra knockback to his attack, his grabs come out very fast and his Bair is deadly, that aura sphere when at its full power can cover a lot of ground due to its akward hit box and go trough our eggs, a good defensive Lucario at high damage can be a real pain to both kill and avoid damage

so yeah...try them or i dunno it could just be me, but those two are currently my worst match ups

 

[AirJay]

Lucario still has a positive match up against yoshi actually it got even more in his favor in smash 4 he can kill really easy and with his new up b its near impossible to edge guard him. If we try to short hop egg toss lucario can just aura sphere us and in close range where you would think we would want to be is difficult if we don't space our moves correctly. When lucario is at high percents is when the battle really begins i died at 80 to a force palm with correct di or vector whatever they call it in this game he was at 155 also yoshi still has a hard time to kill so take advantage of that.

Other characters i feel yoshi has a problem with is Rosalina villager and DHD I might go into more detail later

 

[AirJay]

@ Steinway http://youtu.be/2F4_bEjHhd4 Yeah fair does work

 

[Yoshi-hara]

Is it just me or does the Egg Roll last less than it did in Brawl?
Anyone knows about that?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Feels about the same time, just incredibly faster and better turns.

 

[Slice~]

Egg Roll loses duration upon hitting something.

 

[Steinway]

Is it just me or does the Egg Roll last less than it did in Brawl?
Anyone knows about that?

I'm not sure about the Egg Roll data from Brawl, but I've tested this move out pretty extensively. Here's what I've found:

Yoshi will eventually break out after a set amount of time, after up to 9 directional changes within egg, or when momentum drops to a certain level. The damage seems to be entirely momentum based, but based on the nature of the move there are many cases in which you’ll get more consistent damage.

• While rolling: 6-9%
• While airborne (either rolling off the stage or jumping): 7-8% (it’s 8% unless you jump with very low momentum)
• Bounce (ascending): 5%
• Descending (either by starting the move midair, after jumping with low momentum, or after bouncing): 4%
  

I've also found an interesting technique that can be done involving breaking out of the Egg Roll. The minimum momentum threshold for manually breaking out of the egg is much higher than if the move were to end on its own, and crossing that threshold while airborne has uses offstage and while approaching. Having low enough momentum to break out mid-jump isn't too difficult (if you jump after rolling to about ⅓ the length of FD you can do it), but if you break out at the apex of the jump, then all of the recovery frames occur while you're airborne, allowing you to act the moment you land. You can even squeeze a double jump in right before you land if you break out early enough (it’s slightly stricter than simply landing). This means you can evade punishment by taking to the skies, or cancel the momentum of the jump by throwing an egg. The window to execute these techniques is larger out of a full jump because of the greater falling distance, but it is still possible to do them all out of a short hop.

 

[Steinway]

Is it just me or does the Egg Roll last less than it did in Brawl?
Anyone knows about that?

I'm not sure about the Egg Roll data from Brawl, but I've tested this move out pretty extensively. Here's what I've found:

Yoshi will eventually break out after a set amount of time, after up to 9 directional changes within egg, or when momentum drops to a certain level. The damage seems to be entirely momentum based, but based on the nature of the move there are many cases in which you’ll get more consistent damage.

• While rolling: 6-9%
• While airborne (either rolling off the stage or jumping): 7-8% (it’s 8% unless you jump with very low momentum)
• Bounce (ascending): 5%
• Descending (either by starting the move midair, after jumping with low momentum, or after bouncing): 4%
  

I've also found an interesting technique that can be done with the Egg Roll. The minimum momentum threshold for manually breaking out of the egg is much higher than if the move were to end on its own, and crossing that threshold while airborne has uses offstage and while approaching. Having low enough momentum to break out mid-jump isn't too difficult (if you jump after rolling to about ⅓ the length of FD you can do it), but if you break out at the apex of the jump, then all of the recovery frames occur while you're airborne, allowing you to act the moment you land. You can even squeeze a double jump in right before you land if you break out early enough (it’s slightly stricter than simply landing). This means you can evade punishment by taking to the skies, or cancel the momentum of the jump by throwing an egg. The window to execute these techniques is larger out of a full jump because of the greater falling distance, but it is still possible to do them all out of a short hop.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I noticed that in Slice's video with the Egg roll techs, he popped out of the egg and did an egg toss. so that's cool that a hop from Egg (low hop, we have three different hops depending how we angle the control stick holding up/down or just leave it neutral) allows use to Egg toss DJ etc out of it since no freefall animation and able to hop.

 

[Steinway]

@ AirJay Yeah there you go. It's far more epic if you can land the spike though ^_^

 

[Steinway]

I'm working on an extensive Yoshi guide with some peeps on Reddit, I'll keep you guys posted. Should consolidate everything that's been discovered so far and give some examples of how it's all used.

 

[Ben Prochazka]

Ness has a Dthrow combo that builds up damage quickly
his air moves just seem to have better range and priority than yoshi,
between eggs vs pk powers its a matter of accuracy and skill on who gets to dodge and counter attack
and finally, his dang Bthrow just kills me since i get cought in a pk fire and im just dead

Lucario if i dont kill him quickly he can do an amazing comeback his Aura power-up is just ridiculous with extended range and extra knockback to his attack, his grabs come out very fast and his Bair is deadly, that aura sphere when at its full power can cover a lot of ground due to its akward hit box and go trough our eggs, a good defensive Lucario at high damage can be a real pain to both kill and avoid damage

so yeah...try them or i dunno it could just be me, but those two are currently my worst match ups

Ness I think is the easiest character to fight against as Yoshi imo, just dash attack to forward air (spike) and then either neutral air or just keep spiking them till an easy up air,
I like to think of it as just toss ness like an egg (haha)

Lucario is pretty tough, I was about to 3-0 this one guy and then his aura plus rage killed me at 20% because he was at 200% and kept extreme speeding away aand throwing his spirit bomb bs.

But yeahs, hope that helps against your future Ness endeavors

 

[Dyz]

Ness I think is the easiest character to fight against as Yoshi imo, just dash attack to forward air (spike) and then either neutral air or just keep spiking them till an easy up air,
I like to think of it as just toss ness like an egg (haha)

Lucario is pretty tough, I was about to 3-0 this one guy and then his aura plus rage killed me at 20% because he was at 200% and kept extreme speeding away aand throwing his spirit bomb bs.

But yeahs, hope that helps against your future Ness endeavors

Yeah i did tried that, but they would either shield grab me, or pk fire my dash kick which still ends up burning me, though i didnt occur to me to Nair, since i notice recently the Nair can kick out some projectiles to actually, its hard to put my finger on it but so far i fought about 2 really good Ness players who just gave me a very hard time, it could also mean i just havent adapted fast enough to a good strategy in order to win, either way thanks for the tips :3

and yeah screw lucario and his Aura powers having a limit up to 190% thats crazy he should not have such a huge power boost at such high %, but i dont want to rant to much on game mechanics since many choices have been made that just bug my mind, and instead i will just find a way around it, adapt and become the best that i can :3 though Aetherstorm hasnt replied, and i dont want to go off topic neither hehe

 

[tyhiggz]

Not sure where to post this, but since it regards the way multi it attacks work in this game I'll throw it here.
I love to do short hop dair approaches for tons of damage from time to time but I kept getting punished out of it. While doing some home run contest, I realized that if you get all of the hits out you pop the opponent up with the last hit. This makes you much less vulnerable during the landing lag. I just found this a notable usage of the new mechanic.

 

[Lukingordex]

I only discovered that it's possible to jump while using egg roll yesterday, I fell like i'm a slowpoke

 

[Slice~]

I noticed that in Slice's video with the Egg roll techs, he popped out of the egg and did an egg toss. so that's cool that a hop from Egg (low hop, we have three different hops depending how we angle the control stick holding up/down or just leave it neutral) allows use to Egg toss DJ etc out of it since no freefall animation and able to hop.

If you got an enemy who likes to chase you down, I'd also recommend to jump off stage while eggrolling, get out and come back with a wavebounced Up B.
This way there's no way you could get punished for coming out of the egg on stage.

 

[Sinister Slush]

After the past month of the game being out, Yoshi mains slowly remembering they can jump OoS but basically what you typed is one of the things I don't see happening in videos yet.
Egg rolling off platform/stages and using some rising aerial or even special to hit them once they roll off.

 

[Slice~]

I don't like coming out of side B on stage, as it puts you into a bad spot.
And Yoshi coming back to stage is pretty much impossible to gimp.

 

[chipndip]

You can easily come out of Egg Roll on stage without getting hit. Just use the move as a quick "check" to see if you can hit them, fly all the way to the other side of the stage, and THEN come out. Doing it properly means they shouldn't even have time to hit you to begin with. It's way fast in this game.

 

[Slice~]

There is no time if they react well.
Powershield, dash and they are right behind you.

Sometimes, you just can't.

 

[chipndip]

There is no time if they react well.
Powershield, dash and they are right behind you.

Sometimes, you just can't.

They wouldn't be able to perfect shield two attacks that consistently though. Go through the first time, zip the other way (thus hitting them again), THEN come out before it automatically stops.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I mean it's definitely possible for people to perfect shield twice in a second or two.
But will say if you wanna be a top player, make huge risks even if you're telling yourself it's incredibly stupid and shouldn't do it. Try it anyways to see the result, worry about the outcome afterwards.

 

[chipndip]

I mean it's definitely possible for people to perfect shield twice in a second or two.
But will say if you wanna be a top player, make huge risks even if you're telling yourself it's incredibly stupid and shouldn't do it. Try it anyways to see the result, worry about the outcome afterwards.

It takes balance, but this is actually great advice. I can out-play people simply by playing into what would otherwise be bad moves on purpose. I mean, don't be dumb about it, but a little bit here n' there...that's the best way to use a spice, right? #SpiceUpYoGameWithTHIS

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Eggroll is horrible in theory, but imo it's harder to punish than you think. It's fast enough now that the person you're against has to mentally commit to something to not get hit. You just need to mix up what you want to do.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I always feel like a broken record bringing up short hop egg tosses or the fact egg roll is faster and has sharper turns.
But yes ^

 

[Slice~]

They wouldn't be able to perfect shield two attacks that consistently though. Go through the first time, zip the other way (thus hitting them again), THEN come out before it automatically stops.

They can
Edit: hang on, my smartphone is being a ****...

Edit2:
They can, and it ain't hard either.
Also, as soon as you hit twice, the eggroll's remaining time is so short that you won't get far.
But as Slushy said: try it and see by yourself.

Btw., this is one of the worst websites to use mobile I've ever come across...

 

[Nikes]

What problems are you having Slice? I have smartphone problems too but for me it's always redirecting me onto an ad I never even touched when checking notifications :/ Idk if anyone else has this issue.

But back to egg rollolol. It's definitely got it's uses like punishing landings and catching them off guard, and making people feel silly for getting hit by it. :3
How it's physically possible to grab it though is beyond me though...