Silver Tongue: Move Analysis Changes and Tips

[B0NK]

Yoshi being able to stand up right is doing wonders for him.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

Unless it gets patched, we should be finding what we can do to make the most of it.

Why is there a naked man in that meme?

 

[Code Bread]

I hope they don't patch this. I'm looking forward to trying Yoshi for once in a Smash game and I'll take any new techs I can. Is it performed like a glide toss?

 

[topspin1617]

I hope they don't patch this. I'm looking forward to trying Yoshi for once in a Smash game and I'll take any new techs I can. Is it performed like a glide toss?

I don't know but I'd like to know... I can't really tell what's actually making it happen.

 

[Code Bread]

It seems like that prior Egg Lay is important to that Yoshi... if it is, it could be an extremely punishable tech.

 

[Trekkerjoe]

I think they should patch it. The presence of these weird glitches may make me avoid Yoshi for now. I simply don't want to be dependent on bugs that would likely be patched out. After Yoshi has been fixed, I will certainly try him.

 

[Nikes]

I think they should patch it. The presence of these weird glitches may make me avoid Yoshi for now. I simply don't want to be dependent on bugs that would likely be patched out. After Yoshi has been fixed, I will certainly try him.

You don't have to be dependent on silly bugs like these to use Yoshi, he's already a very good character without all these bugs so no reason to avoid :3

 

[WhiteCane]

From what I been hearing yoshi sounds like a glitchy mess this time around, is it the physics?

 

[Sinister Slush]

It's his specials only, otherwise he's fine.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Updated thread fixing some text and adding some new tips (even tho not really tips) like making sure people remember that we can also UpB and Usmash out of shield and other tidbits.
Spoilered gifs to reduce lag for slow computers (like mine lol) and I guess make the thread not look too huge.

Hate to ask somebody but whoever has the game can they do the % for moves? I'd do it myself but then it wouldn't happen till Smash 4 on the Wii U comes out.

 

[Nikes]

I'll get on it once I have the game but the list probably wont be complete until after this weekend, got a tournament then. Somebody might end up beating me to it in this case.

 

[PlasmaPuffball]

Hate to ask somebody but whoever has the game can they do the % for moves? I'd do it myself but then it wouldn't happen till Smash 4 on the Wii U comes out.

Got you covered!

Dash Attack: 9% sweetspot (right at the beginning), 6% sourspot
Jab: First hit is 3%, Second hit is 4%
Utilt: 7%
Dtilt: 5%
Ftilt: 7%
Fsmash: 13% uncharged sourspot, 14% uncharged normal(?) hit, 15% uncharged sweetspot, 19% fully charged sourspot, 21% fully charged sweetspot
Dsmash: 10% uncharged sourspot, 12% uncharged sweetspot, 14% fully charged sourspot, 16% fully charged sweetspot
Usmash: 12% uncharged sourspot (behind him), 14% uncharged sweetspot (in front or above him), 16% fully charged sourspot, 19% fully charged sweetspot
Nair: 5% sourspot, 10% sweetspot
Fair: 15% sourspot, 14% sweetspot (the spike, not to get anyone confused)
Bair: First hit does 2.5%, Second hit does 2.5%, Third hit does 5%
Uair: 12%
Dair: 32% total
Neutral B: 7%
Up B: 6%
Side B: 4% at startup, 9% at full speed, 6-8% as you ramp up to full speed
Down B: On the ground is 19% total (4% from initial hit, 15% from the actual ground pound), in the air is 12%, stars do 4%

The weirdest move is Fsmash, it has 3 different hitboxes each doing their own damage/knockback. Not sure if it was ever like that before. Fully charged though seems like it only has 2 hitboxes.

 

[WhiteCane]

Shame cause Yoshi feels great in this game.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Cool, I'll add it later. Just to be sure can a 2nd person do it to see if there's different results. Not that I doubt anyone, just better to have one or two different people trying it out to see if the same and such, unstale moves no rage effect etc.

 

[Snailtopus]

Can Yoshi still do jab 1 -> Yoshi bomb? Used that setup a lot in brawl and was wondering if it carried over

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Its worked for me a few times but I haven't done any real testing

 

[chipndip]

Got the game. Some notes:

1) Yoshi's dash attack is his new best tool, especially against those with a bad air game. Not the safest on block, but you can time it so you show up on the other side of the target, so they may not be able to respond correctly in time. If anything is utilized to the fullest, I suggest it be this move.

2) Egg throw is a great way to cover your descent.

3) Try not to depend on that Up smash sour spot to cover your 6. Unlike Fox in Brawl, that hit-box doesn't go far out from Yoshi at all.

4) Down tilt is a surprisingly good tool, and if they don't tech, it leads to a dash attack follow-up. If they block it, it's pretty spammable, so you can do it again if they don't come out of block with something really fast.

5) I'm finding combos difficult. Best results have come from me landing pokes and applying pressure. That said...Yoshi can rush people down in this game if he gets the egg rolling.

I didn't JUST use Yoshi, so I only got about 8 matches online with him + some matches with a friend. I feel like his dash attack, Egg Throw, and down tilt are some great tools to utilize in this game. Quick and efficient options to force your turn on offense, especially down tilt. All imo.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I'm too lazy to look, but has anyone posted about the fact that you can jump while in eggroll?

 

[Sinister Slush]

I mean, if you clicked this thread you should be able to just go to the first page. But yes we have for quite a few months now.

 

[Lukingordex]

I bought the game today in a release event and even attended a tourney with 128 entrants and got top 8 using Yoshi and Ness but mostly Yoshi.

I lost to a Bowser Jr., probably because of lack of MU experience, but I almost won that set.

 

[Egg.]

I got the game also, so here's another % list for the moves! I got largely the same data as Puffball.

Dash Attack: 9% early, 6% late
Jab: First 3% - Second 4%
Utilt: 7%
Dtilt: 4% (tip), 5% (near), Trips.
Ftilt: 8% angled, 7% straight
Fsmash: Uncharged - 15% (tip), 13-14% (near); Charged - 21% (tip), 19% (near)
Dsmash: Uncharged - 10% per hit (tip), 12% per hit (near); Charged - 14% per hit (tip), 16% per hit (near)
Usmash: Uncharged - 14% front/above, 12% behind; Charged - 19-20% front/above, 16% behind
Nair: 10% early, 5% late
Fair: 14% (spike), 15% (forward launch)
Bair: 10% if all hits connect (2-3-5%).
Uair: 12%
Dair: Hits 13 times (2-3% per hit) for 32% total
Neutral B: 7%
Up B: 5-6% (regardless of charge), There also is an odd sourspot I've hit a few times that deals only 1% and minimal knockback
Side B: 4% (min speed) 9% (max speed)
Down B: 19% grounded (4% - 15%), 12% in air, Stars: 4%

Additional Notes:

• Bair makes his tail go up-down-up. The second hit is a weak spike, but it's incredibly hard to use as a spike unless you cancel it by touching the ground.
• I haven't been able to perform the egg lay cancel that happened in Brawl when you caught someone with just the right spot on the hitbox, so it's possible that has been removed.
• If you're too close to the opponent when using fsmash (practically inside of them), you can completely whiff the attack.

 

[andilex]

idk if this has been posted yet, but yoshi can aim his eggs diagonal downward while jump and they land on the floor explode or whatever.

also yoshis reverse up b is pretty cool,
gets ppl chasing u.
and u can do this and grab the edge, by doing it right before u run off stage. then press left while holding the edge and u can throw another egg

 

[BadKarma]

idk if this has been posted yet, but yoshi can aim his eggs diagonal downward while jump and they land on the floor explode or whatever.

also yoshis reverse up b is pretty cool,
gets ppl chasing u.
and u can do this and grab the edge, by doing it right before u run off stage. then press left while holding the edge and u can throw another egg

Andilex how do you pull off the diagonally down eggs? I can't seem to pull it off.

Also not sure if this is already known, but you while dashing one direction, you can jump cancel up B in the opposite direction on the ground. Looks good for zoning if they are trying to rush you down.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Okay some quick findings. I think the egglay cancel is still there but it works differently. I didn't know about the replay feature at the time so i dont have it on tape so sorry but now you seem to grab them and swallow, but it almost looks like the mash out of a grab because even though you do swallow them no egg comes out. I was kinda thrown off so i couldn't tell you if we have frame advantage or whatever.

Also they still have invincibility out of egglay. Idk how them being vulnerable got spread so far.

 

[Slice~]

Also they still have invincibility out of egglay. Idk how them being vulnerable got spread so far.

Because the invincibility is really short, just about 3 frames.
It's lower than in brawl and i've already had some situations where i was able to "combo" enemies out of the egg.

 

[Scatz]

I would assume they left just a few frames to allow players to get out, should we misspace an attack on the egg. Regardless, it's extremely less than any iteration and gives us the ability to truly combo out of it.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Ok gonna update the % stuph, there was only 5 or 6 I needed to change.

You guys forgot to give ledge getup attacks (fast/slow 100%) and also the throw damage. Dunno if pummel should be done tho.

 

[Gliffie]

So how does one execute this?

 

[Sinister Slush]

So how does one execute this?

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-yoshi-labs.370979/

 

[Lukingordex]

F throw - 7%
U throw - 5%
B throw - 7%
D throw - 5%

Ledge Get up attack - 6% (there's no slow get up attack in this game, no matter your damage.)

 

[Sinister Slush]

Oh they removed slow get up attacks?
Rest In Piece 12%

 

[TrollheartBlue]

Can anyone else confirm that he's really actually good in this game. I've been stubbornly maining him for years despite him being low tier...

It's too early to tell if he's really good in this game, just like any other character since it will take time for the meta to develop. However, I can say Yoshi feels good to play as and he feels strong. In my opinion, he's been purely buffed (from 64 that is...)

 

[B0NK]

afk

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Okay now that i've logged a lot of play time im gonna give my current Impressions on the moveset.

Jabs/Tilts​

Jab 1 isn't as good because the followups don't feel like they're actually guaranteed anymore. Could be wrong there but i've been punished trying to jab upsmash/down b. But im pretty sure we can actually jab at 0% without having to be worried about getting punished for it. So its still a good and our fastest gtfo move but Idk if it has true kill setups anymore.


Jab 2 is now actually confirmed after jab 1 lmao.


Ftilt no longer seems to combo at lower percents, but you probably won't get punished just for using it anymore. You'll never get them to a high enough percent for this move to kill but it has the most knockback of all your tilts so thats something. Also Pivot ftilts are pretty good when you can do it.


Utilt is probably our best tilt. It didn't get buffed really, but since our upsmash isn't really that great for juggling anymore, it's gonna be used alot more imo.


Dtilt is also about the same, and I thiiiink it still combos into dash grab at low percents, might even work longer/earlier now since SDI is gone. It'll be a pretty decent gimp tool in some matchups, and if you can force ledge grabs with the new no invincibility ledge mechanic I think it might be even better for gimping that it used to be.


Jabs/Tilts in general feel relatively unchanged in the way you would use them, but with the other changes to the engine and to yoshi in general, you'll want to get used to tilting more and jabbing less.

Smashes + Dash Attack​

Upsmash will take getting used to. I'll do pros and cons for this one since it used to be our bread and butter move


Cons

• Is no longer the utility move it used to me.
• No more invincibility on the nose
• There is still a slight limbo effect to it, but nothing close to how good it was in brawl
• Covers next to no ground behind you anymore
• Forward Range seems nerfed.
• The above pretty much means we won't be using it consistently to juggle anymore.

Pros

• It kills way earlier than it used to, and due to the less utility it probably won't be stale anymore when you need it.
• Its upward range feels buffed
• The fact that the hitbox starts infront of you makes it work a bit better aggressively than it used to.
• No longer needs guaranteed setups to kill since we can jump oos

Like imo its not as good a move because it no longer does everything. But its so much better of a kill move that you get over it pretty quickly lol. The new engine passively boosted a lot of our moveset so that we don't actually need the old upsmash anymore to be relevant.


Fsmash seems like it got a knockback buff. Either way since momentum canceling is dead, you'll actually be able to kill with it. Since we stand straight now, the pull back doesn't feel as drastic anymore, but it will still do its job in dodging moves before you do it. Slightly safer on shield, but you'll still be getting punished for missing this one.


Downsmash does the same job of setting you up to edgeguard, but imo it does that better. Theres more range to it and generally the same startup and end lag so its pretty fast. It also has a lot more kill potential near the edge so keep it in mind. You won't be dsmashing people at the edge at 180 anymore without killing them lol

DashAttack Honestly this move feels exactly the same in when you'd use it, but its safer to do so now. You won't really be punished on hit early anymore. And since landing is ever worse than it used to be, you might think about doing this instead of dash grabbing since its slightly less laggy at the end with more range and places them in a favorable spot for you when it connects. But it's just as bad on wiff. You're gonna get punished pretty hard for missing this one, but the new range means you might get lucky and cross up.


So the rundown here is that upsmash lost its utility so you'll be using it almost strictly for kills. The other smashes still have their old utility but their kill potentials got buffed and they're a little less dangerous to miss. Get used to more tilts/fsmash and dash attack to make up for your lost upsmash options. (tbh you can still spam upsmash but your other moves got better so it really doesn't make sense to do anymore)

Aerials​

Before I start with this, most people lost a lot of auto cancels, but we pretty much kept all of ours except for bair.

Nair is almost exactly the same. Low landing lag, starts combos at low percents, kill move at high percents. Still our panic button in the air, probably our best combo starter with the bair changes. I don't use it to kill as much as I used to though. Since bair is now a kill option and fair spikes are now viable you're not gonna need it for that as much. Least improved aerial.


Upair another move that's just about the same. More knockback so you're less likely to get you punished at early percents. The new double jump also makes it a lot easier to hit. Possibly a range buff but idk about all that. You will be hitting this move a lot more than you were ever used to in brawl I can just about promise that but have no idea why.


Fair Raptors favorite aerial is finally good. Remember when you'd land this move on any character with a decent recovery and end up somehow getting gimped anyway? Yeah kiss that **** goodbye. This move is actually scary because it has a knockback buff on its sweetspot spike and the sourspot hit. Also no meteor cancels so if you hit the spike at a decent percent you will kill, and if you're near blastzone and don't spike you'll probably get the kill anyway it feels fantastic. Still slow on start up, but still has no end lag so you can still bair airdodge frame traps with it.


Dair This move is more viable now but it lost most of its gimp potential. When you hit everything it still does 32~. It still spikes, but the last hit pops them up instead. Also the hits tend to combo into eachother now (Its fantastic). It doesn't really matter what hit you connect with first, most if not all the other hits will connect at low to mid%, at high percents it'll spike kind of like it did in brawl. So now it's more likely to connect every hit, and will set up a juggle if you do hit them all, but at the same time can still kind of spike.


Bair It is not the combo starting monster it used to be. See the first hit actually has a good amount of knockback now. I think i see a lot of potential in hitting a second hit of bair. You can almost definately combo off of that hit (down b might be guaranteed., but the timing is weird, and its kind of likely to get shielded. I kind of want to see some testing on that as the game goes along. Anyway, You'll be using bair for the quick aerial poke you used to. Only difference is that it kills now. Like surprisingly well. If you chase with it off stage and actually connect all the hits, you'll be really surprised at how well it can kill.


Aerials weren't buffed that much but Yoshi's new kit and the games new mechanics just make them all shine a bit more and their uses all feel a bit more specialized. We can still auto cancel too so thats fun.

Specials and Grabs​

Eggroll Eggroll kills are dead.... not even because it can't kill anymore, its just yoshi has so much more kill potential I don't think anyone is ever going to live long enough to let me do it anymore. This is probably the most useful eggroll ever but its still our worst move. It turns extremely quickly, you can jump once in it, and it might actually combo into it self early at low%. There's a lot of actually use able little techs there but they're all stall related and I don't think we're much of a stall character anymore. Also it doesn't make you special fall anymore. You're still probably dead if accidentally eggroll off stage though, but at least now they give you a fighting chance.


Egglay we lost DJC so it's no longer as scary for shield pressure, but it's still really good at it because we can still b reverse and what not. The length that they're stuck in the egg increases with their percent just like with regular grabs. They also really do have less invincibility frames. Caution though because they can still move on like the first frame of popping out of the egg. You can get some frame traps in on people with bad aerials, but respect things like good nairs bairs and up b's. Makes the mixup game really good though.
Also, it is now a REALLY GOOD GIMP SETUP AT HIGHER PERCENTS. Holy **** lmao, if get a catch on your way back to the edge, fast fallers/people who don't pop up very high will be set up to be gimped assuming you even have to.


Yoshi Bomb Knockback buff. On the ground it's just as good/better at killing now, and comes out just as fast. Eats shields. I've had like 10+ shield breaks on for glory with it now. Its at the point where its a move you might actually have to spot dodge if you want to keep your shield.
Also it has kill potentially while you're in the air. Makes it scarier in the since that if you don't actually dodge yoshi comming down at you you might die. Still predictable but hey its something.
The ledge snap range has been significantly nerfed so keep in mind you have to be just a bit more accurate now. Decent trade off since we can grab the ledge now even if someones on it.


Eggtoss We've had a range nerf on the ground, but since the eggs keep going downwards for longer, they got a range buff in the air. Also since we have so much more mobility in the air with them, air eggs > Grounded eggs. Eggs in general are easier to follow up on but more so in the air. I think you might have less end lag in the air but it might just seem like that because of the mobility.
Okay our edge egg game is dead. Like completely dead (sorry delta). We're now good enough on stage that we wouldn't want to in the first place, but just know that the option is just about gone and not worth it. BUT, if you don't actually edge cancel the egg, it gives you enough of a jump to land on stage. That is something to keep in mind.
I don't think they have as much shield bounce but idk.
There's a lot to say about it but just know that their general use of zoning is just as good and now its a lot easier/better to combo with. Less end lag means you might not even get punished if you just randomly threw one, but if you do it while in the air there is almost a 0 percent chance of you getting punished for it. Edge Eggs are dead don't try them. Eggtoss slide is still there but in general you'd rather short hop them.


All of his specials have increased utility and the only thing there to complain about is DJC and ECE.

Grabs and Movement​

Throws None of them kill. Back and Fthrow have the same use of just getting people off stage. Dthrow sets you up for a utilt at low percents and I think its guaranteed. Upthrow sets up juggles. Not much to see here, but since our juggle game feels a lot better up and downthrow are gonna just be your go to throws probably.

Standing Grab It feels buffed. You might actually want to think about using it over pivot grabs in some situations. Because even though it doesn't come out as fast, it has a lot less end lag i feel.

Pivot Grab This nerf hurts the most. You literally cannot just throw this move out wildly like we could before. There is a lot of end lag on it. A lot. Still fast, still long range, still a really good "counter" and with the nerf to grab armor ranged grabs are a bit safer. Just, if you miss this and do not get punished. Whoever you were playing was not paying attention, or you pivot grabbed for literally no reason while they weren't in range.

Dash Grab I think the range might have been a bit nerfed, but it no longer does that thing where you definately should have grabbed, but your tongue goes through them or comes back as its about to make contact or whatever. Also might be worth noting that you stop your forward momentum when the grab connects.

General Movement Our Air, Fall, Run and walk speed remain unchanged. They were all fine before so its cool. DJC and DR are dead so we lose out on a decent bit of both aerial and grounded mixups. Our Double Jump miiiiight have took a slight height hit. I don't know. It probably didn't and just seems that way because the game is a bit faster and less floaty. The Double jump is instant now though so it makes our juggles less reactable. And might make us just a tad harder to footstool. (We can still get footstooled kinda easy if we recover low though, i've done it in a few Yoshi dittos already).

Game Play​

In brawl optimal was Passive aggressive leaning more to the defensive side or full on defensive, but right now I think aggro will take us the furthest. Its mostly viable now because we won't be getting punished for actually landing hits anymore, and when we do land hits they all do a bit more damage.
Passive aggressive isn't as good as it was tbh but still doable. Defensive is still kinda good, we just don't have a ledge anymore so it'll be more air campy. Pretty much I think this might be the end of borderline playstyle yoshis like me who they switch styles a lot midgame. It no longer feels necessary.

Eggs are still your core, but they will be offensive. Even the defensive eggs are gonna be offensive tbh. Egg to egg combo is actually legit now lmao, its hilarious. Up smash isn't a panic button anymore, its a kill move. Use it to kill. For landings try using uptilts dash attacks grabs...anything else really, they're all pretty decent options that do different things now.
We can chase offstage for kills now a lot more effectively because of fair and bair. If you want you can just throw eggs, but chasing works better now. Keep it in mind.
Recovery is pretty much the same. No more momentum canceling so you don't have to instantly burn your double jump to live. Holding towards the stage is still fine for recovery a lot of the time. Down b to the edge is a lot safer since they can't edgehog you. Recovering will be matchup dependent obviously because we have a lot of options. In general We'll probably be trying to land on stage though.


TL;DR

• We should be more aggro this time around
• We probably have the best shield in the game this time around.
• Chase off stage with eggs, fair, bair, nair, egglay possibly
• Kill with Upsmash bair fair upair nair fsmash dsmash...we can kill now its great
• Our close game isn't as mixup heavy anymore since most of our combosetups are gone
• Egglay followups are better

yep yep thats pretty much it

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Because the invincibility is really short, just about 3 frames.
It's lower than in brawl and i've already had some situations where i was able to "combo" enemies out of the egg.

Okay yeah i played with it a lot more and you're right. It's a lot less. Dunno about combos because of airdodge, but we have some pretty strong frame traps against characters who are weaker in the air.

 

[andilex]

you jump, then up b and aim the egg diagonally down.

wait a little after up , so that the egg is above yoshis head, then aim diagonally down.

Andilex how do you pull off the diagonally down eggs? I can't seem to pull it off.



Also not sure if this is already known, but you while dashing one direction, you can jump cancel up B in the opposite direction on the ground. Looks good for zoning if they are trying to rush you down.

 

[JakubDi]

I have just tested it and it seems that there is no need to input diagonal down. I am able to pull this off by UpB~Up+Forward~Forward (Circle Pad inputs might be confusing, though). Disabling Tap Jump is highly recommended because you can simply hold Up, press B and slide Cirle Pad to either side.

This also works while on the ground and makes the egg land as far as approximately 1 dash (Yoshi's).

EDIT: Of course holding B makes the egg fly farther.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Got the game a day late but am playing catch up. Yoshi's never felt so formidable. Really love that new dash attack.

 

[Blue Warrior]

Yoshi's at least mid-high tier imo. Some moves got power boosts, but I think the real buff came in the form of mobility; his dash attack, OOS, double jump all feel a lot faster. I think even his grabs have been sped up too, sans pivot. I don't think Yoshi really has exploitable weaknesses this time around, which could mean a hell of a lot for anyone maining him.

 

[BadKarma]

you jump, then up b and aim the egg diagonally down.

wait a little after up , so that the egg is above yoshis head, then aim diagonally down.

I have just tested it and it seems that there is no need to input diagonal down. I am able to pull this off by UpB~Up+Forward~Forward (Circle Pad inputs might be confusing, though). Disabling Tap Jump is highly recommended because you can simply hold Up, press B and slide Cirle Pad to either side.

This also works while on the ground and makes the egg land as far as approximately 1 dash (Yoshi's).

EDIT: Of course holding B makes the egg fly farther.

I was doing the charge version the whole time, oops. I played around with it a little and it works great for approaches. Doing it on the ground next to the ledge looks to be a great edge guard if you don't want to commit to going off stage