Silver Tongue: Move Analysis Changes and Tips

[Z-Bone]

Well I didn't see anything posted about those characters getting any significant buffs. Charizard just needs to be remade from the ground up. He feels like crap to play as.

 

[Z-Bone]

The startup is fine.
But the lag after wards is pretty hard.

I fell in love with Up and Down Tilt though.

Up Tilt starts a free ~50% combo (often true combo), and Down Tilt is a major range-extended ***** slap.

I know this post is from a couple weeks ago, but what 50% combo are you talking about?!

 

[Nikes]

Probably (I'm assuming) just a few Utilts into Uair strings which you can mix Nairs and an egg lay in and extend it a bit.

 

[Z-Bone]

Air dodge makes such a combo more of a pipe dream than a reality. It only works against players who don't know what they are doing.

 

[Sinister Slush]

So basically 99% of people in for glory.
lol

 

[Captain Norris]

Anyone else Up throw and then Up air at around 100%? I have gotten so many kills with it, and when the opponent expects me to do it I throw an egg instead. Of course, not every time. I do switch it up.

 

[Yoshi-hara]

I landed a 40% Dair today. Was it buffed?
All hits connected on Ganondorf.

 

[Slice~]

I landed a 40% Dair today. Was it buffed?
All hits connected on Ganondorf.

Srsly?
That sounds creepy!

 

[Captain Norris]

Srsly?
That sounds creepy!

I did the exact same thing also. It was against an airborne opponent.

 

[fill]

how is everyone using side , I find myself only using the egg roll when I'm trying to throw a egg and mess up

 

[RaptorTEC]

Jump with it to land behind them and then go to safety. Sometimes they even jump into it lol.

 

[Nikes]

Basically what Raptor said. I can almost always score a hit or two with it then use the momentum to jump away, break out and use egg toss back toward center stage to cover myself as I land again.

Also I haven't tested it much myself but I can vouch for Dair being buffed, I did 34% with a super casual Dair today and I know for a fact not all the hits landed. Wonder why they chose to buff an already fantastic move seeing as SDI isn't in this game...

 

[Sinister Slush]

I landed so many full dairs during the weekend it was crazy, tho 2v2 or 4v4 so never really paid attention, I just know they took at least 30-40%. Haven't tested it myself cause still 100%'ing WWHD.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Double post Update
REMOVED: Wario USmash on him after grab release.

I believe they fixed that for him, so yeah that's gone. Oh well.

 

[Remioli]

Does anyone know anything about grab followups? Anywhere I can look for information? Like "D throw leads to X against Y characters at low percents?"

I was trying to figure some out in training mode, but it's tough to know if the CPU's reactions are any good.

 

[Nikes]

I can usually get Fthrows into dash attack in, people can airdodge it but Dthrow>Utilt/Uair is good too, if you get it in you can setup attack strings easily.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Nothing known as of yet, the previous ones outside of removing Wario one was found by a japanese yoshi that's been making helpful/silly Yoshi gifs since the first week of Smash 4 on 3ds. There was mention of possibly Uthrow to Uair or maybe other aerials so try that in for glory or against friends.

Also Update, dunno if we have a multiple getup attacks since ledge getups were changed and all or after a trip but falling onto the stage from tumble animation in the air our getup attack is 8% each now from 6% in brawl.

 

[GSM_Dren]

Does anyone know anything about grab followups? Anywhere I can look for information? Like "D throw leads to X against Y characters at low percents?"

I was trying to figure some out in training mode, but it's tough to know if the CPU's reactions are any good.

Hey Remioli, see my post here regarding follow ups from a grounded grab release. I haven't found any guaranteed followups from throws. But I follow up D-Throw with a DJ Uair, and follow up F-Throw with an egg or Fair or both in combination. Most of the time the opponent will be able to react with a dodge unfortunately.

 

[chipndip]

Does anyone know anything about grab followups? Anywhere I can look for information? Like "D throw leads to X against Y characters at low percents?"

I was trying to figure some out in training mode, but it's tough to know if the CPU's reactions are any good.

Here's the thing: Yoshi's grab game is lousy. It's slow and doesn't lead to anything reliably or consistently. No true combos, and no real mix-up potential worth mentioning. Stick to f or b-throw. They do the most damage, so after 2 pummels it's a free 11%. I cringe when I see people do d or u-throw like they're getting something out of it...cause they aren't...

 

[Delta-cod]

@ C chipndip Depending on percentages, the positional advantage after an uthrow/dthrow is better than that of an fthrow/bthrow. At low percents, fthrow/bthrow just sort of end with a reset to neutral, while uthrow/dthrow at least provide you the advantage of being below your opponent, which can lead to more grabs/uairs/usmashes/whatever, giving you "hidden" value that isn't displayed by percentages.

Smash is a game about positioning. You could possibly describe it as King of the Hill. Percent is good and all, but it only serves to make your objective of keeping the opponent off your hill easier.

Edit: To be fair, I personally tend to go for Fthrow/Bthrow (at least in Brawl), but that's because I have a lot of confidence in my ability to repeatedly win neutral, and I lack confidence in the sort of close quarters set up that Uthrow/Dthrow provide. Now in a game where Yoshi actually has good moves and even stronger neutral, I might be even MORE inclined to go for F/Bthrow, but that's because of how I am as a player. If you're good at those 50/50 baits/reads that U/Dthrow provide, they're even MORE advantageous than the percent that F/Bthrow provide. I'm bad, so I stick with what I know I can get.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Good old delta always going for the guaranteed percent lol.

But imma piggy back off of this in saying that he's right about the positional advantage, and it's good to keep in mind that even though we might not have any true combos out of it, against a lot of characters being under them just about guarantees us getting some sort of hit in with a basic read.

side throws verses vertical throws will be matchup, percent and position dependant. Side being the general safest and most damaging, but vertical being better for positioning or damage in most cases.

So to put it in perspective, I'd fthrow like a MK or Sheik, and i'd upthrow a bowser or little mac (tho in macs case an fthrow offstage can be beneficial a lot of the time too).

 

[Jmorsch]

Do you think Jump Cancel Down B( The Charizard Rock Slide) is useful for Yoshi at all?
He does a really low Down B, probably can only hit with stars.

 

[GSM_Dren]

Do you think Jump Cancel Down B( The Charizard Rock Slide) is useful for Yoshi at all?
He does a really low Down B, probably can only hit with stars.

Not particularly because he does not slide with it like Charizard does. Doing this puts Yoshi in a bad position because it takes a while for animation to finish. If you're this close to the opponent its better to do a grounded Down B instead. Otherwise, the custom Star Bombs would be of use with this tech.

Jump cancelling is better suited for his Up B aka Egg Toss Slide. Yoshi slides along as he tosses an egg to as an aggressive approach or defensive positioning. Another use for jump cancelling would be Hypen smashing. Dash -> jump cancel Usmash. He slides quite a bit so his Usmash covers more distance.

 

[chipndip]

@ C chipndip Depending on percentages, the positional advantage after an uthrow/dthrow is better than that of an fthrow/bthrow. At low percents, fthrow/bthrow just sort of end with a reset to neutral, while uthrow/dthrow at least provide you the advantage of being below your opponent, which can lead to more grabs/uairs/usmashes/whatever, giving you "hidden" value that isn't displayed by percentages.

Smash is a game about positioning. You could possibly describe it as King of the Hill. Percent is good and all, but it only serves to make your objective of keeping the opponent off your hill easier.

Edit: To be fair, I personally tend to go for Fthrow/Bthrow (at least in Brawl), but that's because I have a lot of confidence in my ability to repeatedly win neutral, and I lack confidence in the sort of close quarters set up that Uthrow/Dthrow provide. Now in a game where Yoshi actually has good moves and even stronger neutral, I might be even MORE inclined to go for F/Bthrow, but that's because of how I am as a player. If you're good at those 50/50 baits/reads that U/Dthrow provide, they're even MORE advantageous than the percent that F/Bthrow provide. I'm bad, so I stick with what I know I can get.

Here's the thing: Your edit is my mind set, and should be that of others, given Yoshi's nature. At low percents, you can actually just throw out a SH d-air or a dash attack at anyone that gets too antsy. At higher percents, you can throw people to the ledge. No real reason to just waste free damage using u or d-throw. Smash IS about positioning, but you gain advantage just by recovering from the move's lag faster than their hit-stun, so you still got pressure. Even better is that they're aligned with you now, so it's easier to aim cross-up aerials and dash attacks.

 

[Delta-cod]

Here's the thing: Your edit is my mind set, and should be that of others, given Yoshi's nature. At low percents, you can actually just throw out a SH d-air or a dash attack at anyone that gets too antsy. At higher percents, you can throw people to the ledge. No real reason to just waste free damage using u or d-throw. Smash IS about positioning, but you gain advantage just by recovering from the move's lag faster than their hit-stun, so you still got pressure. Even better is that they're aligned with you now, so it's easier to aim cross-up aerials and dash attacks.

But the percent differential favors getting an u/dthrow into a follow up, because fthrow and bthrow don't actually do THAT much more damage. These throws also provide the additional advantage of allowing for juggle conditioning to begin (do I make them think they need to jump away/airdodge every time, etc.), and allows you to learn habits. F/bthrow do what? A few extra percent which probably won't be that significant, and reset to lateral positioning. I'd venture to say that we don't even WANT people to be aligned with us, at least among the currently perceived top tiers. What are you gonna do, challenge Sheik/Diddy Fair?

At high percents, I agree that F/bthrow are nearly strictly better. But at low percents, it's not so clear. If you can get them offstage, yes. Otherwise, maybe it's not as good.

 

[chipndip]

But the percent differential favors getting an u/dthrow into a follow up, because fthrow and bthrow don't actually do THAT much more damage. These throws also provide the additional advantage of allowing for juggle conditioning to begin (do I make them think they need to jump away/airdodge every time, etc.), and allows you to learn habits. F/bthrow do what? A few extra percent which probably won't be that significant, and reset to lateral positioning. I'd venture to say that we don't even WANT people to be aligned with us, at least among the currently perceived top tiers. What are you gonna do, challenge Sheik/Diddy Fair?

At high percents, I agree that F/bthrow are nearly strictly better. But at low percents, it's not so clear. If you can get them offstage, yes. Otherwise, maybe it's not as good.

Yes, but u/d-throw don't give guaranteed follow-ups ever, either? F/b-throw sets people in position to be further pressured when you run in, and that's never a bad thing. You don't necessarily need to challenge any f-airs either since it's very low to the ground. You can aim and position your next move as much as you like with better options than a missed u-air. >_>

 

[Delta-cod]

U/dthrow give guaranteed benefits that aren't displayed, in exchange for a few percent. These throws also set people in a position to be further pressured when you stand below them, which is more powerful than the pressure you get from running in without any guaranteed follow ups.

 

[chipndip]

U/dthrow give guaranteed benefits that aren't displayed, in exchange for a few percent. These throws also set people in a position to be further pressured when you stand below them, which is more powerful than the pressure you get from running in without any guaranteed follow ups.

How can you say that when u/d-throw also have no guaranteed follow-ups? If anything, it's easier to get back to neutral from those throws than it is f/b-throw, depending on the char, assuming it's at low %s.

 

[Delta-cod]

Being in the air is almost a strictly disadvantaged position in Smash, especially when you've been put above someone against your will. Our anti-air game is scary - Invincible Usmash which can be done OOS, fast, powerful Uair, etc. With the extra landing lag that can be suffered in this game due to an airdodge, putting someone above you is generally fantastic, unless their Dair or something is just ridiculous.

By contrast, F/Bthrow give the opponent the opportunity to get onto the ground easily, which gives them full access to ALL of their options, including shield, which beats all our aerials except Egg Lay. When you F/Bthrow, you're essentially going for a 50-50 read/guess. With an U/Dthrow, you're going for a trap, which by definition should have a higher rate of success.

 

[chipndip]

Being in the air is almost a strictly disadvantaged position in Smash, especially when you've been put above someone against your will. Our anti-air game is scary - Invincible Usmash which can be done OOS, fast, powerful Uair, etc. With the extra landing lag that can be suffered in this game due to an airdodge, putting someone above you is generally fantastic, unless their Dair or something is just ridiculous.

By contrast, F/Bthrow give the opponent the opportunity to get onto the ground easily, which gives them full access to ALL of their options, including shield, which beats all our aerials except Egg Lay. When you F/Bthrow, you're essentially going for a 50-50 read/guess. With an U/Dthrow, you're going for a trap, which by definition should have a higher rate of success.

1) Yoshi's FEET are invincible during u-smash. You can still hit his body and head. Yoshi's invincibility on u-smash is lack-luster in comparison to others.

2) U-air is good, there's that. Not THAT hard to dodge though.

3) Main reason why I vouch for f/b-throw is for OUR d-air, which can be used as a follow-up to low % jab combos and throws (mainly f-throw). When it works, it's a solid way to go from 0 to 30-40-ish.

I wouldn't be vouching this if I wasn't doing it to a good effect already.

 

[Shiri]

If it works, it works.

At the end of the day, it's not about right or wrong, but success probability.

As long as the numbers make sense to you, do what you gotta do.

If the numbers don't look appealing, try a different tactic that boosts them to a satisfactory level.

 

[Fuzzio]

I think the most important thing is to mix it up. If you're always throwing a certain way, that gives your opponent the additional processing time to decide what to do and how to follow up. Of course, this applies even more heavily to the follow up than it does for the actual throw.

 

[AirJay]

Edit: Ignore this post I thought d-throw to uair was a true combo because it said so in training mode but it actually can just be air dodged out of :/ but you could always just jump up and wait to see what your opponent would do as long as they dont jump you can bait them into air dodging then punish with a uair

 

[Arbitation]

Not sure if it's already been said, but I find myself doing fair -> jab combo -> dash attack and then think about the follow up with maybe a bair or dair, but who cares, they are in the air and you have a lot of options, after the dash attack it's free game but I find a lot of people spot dodge after being popped up by DA.

 

[Skull_Kid]

I don't know if it's old news, but if you do a reverse U-Smash to a foe trapped in an egg near the ledge, it can move the egg off stage (thus killinkg the enemy at high %). I've been pulling it off pretty consistently during several matches but it may just be a DI error from the other players scared by the up-smash.

Here's a GIF

Do you guys think it's legit?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Move the egg offstage?
I never heard of any smash games where using a move on somebody in the egg pushes them away ala Unira or Soccer Ball. Though from the looks of it going frame by frame it indeed pushed him off, could just be Yoshi's body that pushed him off regularly, so maybe not USmash related but just the way his body moves himself during it that pushed the egg offstage.

Kinda neat.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Personally it looked to me like he just didn't have the acceleration needed to make it over. Not discrediting though it might be legit

 

[Sinister Slush]

It's legit. You're able to pause the gif/video (whatever the hell it is) and go frame by frame. He's on the stage but the ending of Usmash shoved him off just barely.

 

[Skull_Kid]

It's legit. You're able to pause the gif/video (whatever the hell it is) and go frame by frame. He's on the stage but the ending of Usmash shoved him off just barely.

Exactly, at first I thought it wasn't legit as the U-smash hits the egg fairly late. Eventually I went through it frame by frame and noticed the egg being clearly pushed off the platform.

 

[Omni]

I'm more intrigued by that up-smash hitbox. Lol. Dafuq.