Meta Shulk Match-Ups: Directory/General Discussion – Engage the Enemy

[Berserker.]

+1 Lucario

Also, I said something in the Diddy MU thread

We're going to have to re-discuss Sheik, Diddy, and Sonic. I guess

 

[busken]

Trying to learn Shulk. The mass amount of information this board contributed is great appreciated and helpful, but a little intimidating. How should I start off learning him?

 

[Berserker.]

Trying to learn Shulk. The mass amount of information this board contributed is great appreciated and helpful, but a little intimidating. How should I start off learning him?

Start with this thread to learn the basics. Then again, it's seemingly intimidating but Shulk is a hard character to learn and master anyway. After that, try going to the other threads that are linked in this thread to learn the rest.

 

[Ultinarok]

Trying to learn Shulk. The mass amount of information this board contributed is great appreciated and helpful, but a little intimidating. How should I start off learning him?

1. Learn how Shulk moves defaultly. Practice his recovery.
2. Learn how all of his attacks work. Learn what's fast and safe (d-tilt, nair etc.) and what is a finisher or spacing tool (U-Smash, u-tilt).
3. Learn to know when to use Back Slash, Vision and Air Slash. Don't spam them. Beginner's mistake.
4. Learn not to depend on his dash attack. Shulk has better options for approaching.
5. Learn Speed Art and how it improves his short hops, dash grabs and pivots.
6. Learn Jump Art and how it improves his aerial chasing, edgeguarding, sniping at the blast zones, and recovery.
7. Buster and Smash will come natural if you've done 1-4.
8. Know when to use Shield and when not to i.e. when in neutral and at a high percentage, but NOT off-stage.
9. With a knowledge of individual moves and arts, learn what works in each art and what is favorable. I.e.
-Dash grab, back slash, pivot f-tilt, short hop nair and pivot F-smash in speed.
-Aerials and Air Slash in jump.
-Vision and Smash attacks in shield.
-Tilt/nair strings into smashes or grabs in Buster.
-F-tilt, U-tilt and fair in Smash (safest moves with his decreased weight)
10. Learn the downsides of each art so you know your weaknesses as well
11. Blend all skills combined for the savage and unpredictable style that is Shulk.

Good luck man! He's well worth it. I've become very good with him through consistent practice but he takes some work.

 

[Berserker.]

Alright guys. The moment we've been all waiting for

Do we still include MU scores or do we proceed to burn them in fire?

I think I've said it before, I had a conversation with some fellow mods waaay back about this. With the active use of patches, and since (even until now), it's fairly early to conclude the numbers, maybe MU ratios aren't that necessary. Solid example was in the 1.04 patch when several of Shulk's perceived bad match ups were nerfed (because he was buffed and a good number of them were nerged). Now we're seeing the same trend again. Diddy Kong (a bad match up for Shulk) has been nerfed and he can't even u-throw > u-air when we're at Smash art because of the given nerfs. Sheik.... You can now make witty jokes about her not being able to kill (Which btw, is a bigger nerf than what most people are making it out to be). Sonic's b-throw got nerfed but not by much so I doubt the MU has changed.

These MU scores inevitably induce fanboyisms/bias. They aren't perfect. Will never be perfect especially since Nintendo is actively patching this game, and there are a LOT of match ups in this game so things aren't bound to be perfect.

Think about it this way, without MU scores, no one will be arguing for, "Hmm... I think it's actually X's favor because.." no. Just stick to the PRIMARY importance of match up discussions: How X deals with Y

 

[spiderfreak1011]

Alright guys. The moment we've been all waiting for

Do we still include MU scores or do we proceed to burn them in fire?

I think I've said it before, I had a conversation with some fellow mods waaay back about this. With the active use of patches, and since (even until now), it's fairly early to conclude the numbers, maybe MU ratios aren't that necessary. Solid example was in the 1.04 patch when several of Shulk's perceived bad match ups were nerfed (because he was buffed and a good number of them were nerged). Now we're seeing the same trend again. Diddy Kong (a bad match up for Shulk) has been nerfed and he can't even u-throw > u-air when we're at Smash art because of the given nerfs. Sheik.... You can now make witty jokes about her not being able to kill (Which btw, is a bigger nerf than what most people are making it out to be). Sonic's b-throw got nerfed but not by much so I doubt the MU has changed.

These MU scores inevitably induce fanboyisms/bias. They aren't perfect. Will never be perfect especially since Nintendo is actively patching this game, and there are a LOT of match ups in this game so things aren't bound to be perfect.

Think about it this way, without MU scores, no one will be arguing for, "Hmm... I think it's actually X's favor because.." no. Just stick to the PRIMARY importance of match up discussions: How X deals with Y

So...I'm guessing we're just gonna re-test Diddy, Sonic and Sheik and leave everyone else then, right?

 

[Berserker.]

So...I'm guessing we're just gonna re-test Diddy, Sonic and Sheik and leave everyone else then, right?

Sort of. I guess.

 

[Ultinarok]

I somehow doubt that those three matchups will change much. The characters are still dynamically the same; any strengths they've had over us will persist, but some might simply be neutered. The only match-up that might dramatically change is Diddy because he now has a much harder time killing us than we do killing him, even though he has similar shenanigans. Ultimately our biggest weakness against Sheik is when we're off stage trying to gimp or being edge-guarded, so a bair nerf is helpful, but we still have fair, Vanish and Bouncing Fish.

Ultimately this patch was very small in scale compared to the first one and nothing huge was changed that makes me believe that things will be different for Shulk. Our matchup against Diddy is likely slightly better, while against Sheik and Sonic its probably unchanged, if a bit tougher for the Sheik/Sonic.

But that's just my two cents.

 

[Berserker.]

So, did anyone answer my question? We do away with MU scores or stay with them? I don't want the MU scores to become the main point of discussion (even I'm guilty of this), but I've observed it already in the recent MU threads we've had.

 

[Deleted member]

I say keep some scores and eliminate others.
Characters that were massively buffed or nerfed from the patch, such as Diddy Kong and Sheik, should be re-evaluated. With the patch, the match-up pretty much changes these battles entirely.
Characters that received no buffs or nerfs or were minority buffed or nerfed should not be re-evaluated as those match-ups received no to incredibly minor changes.

 

[Berserker.]

That's not what I meant, I meant we're doing away with match up scores. This means that we won't argue for scores anymore. It will all be pure discussion. No numbers. Just how this character beats that character, how to deal with this and that.

 

[Deleted member]

That's not what I meant, I meant we're doing away with match up scores. This means that we won't argue for scores anymore. It will all be pure discussion. No numbers. Just how this character beats that character, how to deal with this and that.

That sounds good enough, I suppose.
Though, maybe we can say in general if the match-up is good, even, or bad?

 

[Berserker.]

That sounds good enough, I suppose.
Though, maybe we can say in general if the match-up is good, even, or bad?

If you want, I guess

Feel free but it won't be noted down or anything

 

[Linkmario00]

I think we should eliminate MU scores in favour of a simple good-even-bad score. We shouldn't obliterate them at all because they make easier and faster understand if we can or can't use Shulk against X character.

 

[notyourparadigm]

I think we should eliminate MU scores in favour of a simple good-even-bad score. We shouldn't obliterate them at all because they make easier and faster understand if we can or can't use Shulk against X character.

I agree with this. In my opinion the 'slightly in x's favour' MUs should be treated as even anyways, since these matches will still come down to which player is more skilled. Only clear advantages/disadvantages should be noted.

 

[Berserker.]

I think you guys are missing the point of this. We're doing away with discussing on whose favor the match up (or at least, that's what I'm suggesting). All we'll do is discuss how this character deals with that character, vice versa.

If you guys still want to keep the system of discussing MU scores, then that's fine. This is why I'm asking all of you. I'm not making any new "systems" of the sort.

 

[Linkmario00]

Well, if the choice is to keep this system or obliterate completely the score, I choose the second one. In fact, I never saw a MU ratio on other boards, but the results are the same, so..

 

[Berserker.]

Well, if the choice is to keep this system or obliterate completely the score, I choose the second one. In fact, I never saw a MU ratio on other boards, but the results are the same, so..

That's the thing. Some boards even opt not to put up a score. At least even prioritize on it. That's what made me wonder

 

[notyourparadigm]

Discussions alone are fine by me. As you said, the focus shouldn't be put onto quantifying the MU numerically, since it's pretty silly to think any MU can be summarized into a single number. Doing away with the system will hopefully entice people to read the discussion posts more thoroughly as well, rather than seeing "+1 Shulk" and being tempted to think 'Tch. Got this in the bag.'

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I don't think MU scores are necessary. It'd be a lot more productive if we could just discuss how to deal with the MU rather than stick a number on it. Another problem with ratios is that a lot of the time if I'm playing a bad matchup I'll think "oh no. this is a bad matchup. crap." If I'm playing a good one I'll think "ok, I've got this easily" which is not true for either. I'm sure other people think like this while they're playing a bad or good MU.

tldr; Only discussions are better since they're more productive and don't put a false sense of fear/security in our mind, unlike ratios

 

[Berserker.]

Alright. The numbers went bye-bye~

Ness and Lucario will be up soon (by soon, I meant maybe tomorrow)

 

[erico9001]

Alright. The numbers went bye-bye~

Ness and Lucario will be up soon (by soon, I meant maybe tomorrow)

Cool! This will be healthy.

 

[Lord Xanthan]

I'll vote for Zero Suit Samus.

 

[Berserker.]

Didn't last long at all but me and @ Neo Zero talked about the match ups scores. After a conversation (it only lasted for 2 replies lmao), we decided that it's best to put the scoring system back up. We're going to need to rate match ups one way or another. I know it's really difficult to disregard bias for your character, but do it (or try your best) so that things will be much easier and fairer. Just be logical and as unbiased as possible. Remember that you guys know Shulk very well and you know there are those characters that can exploit his weaknesses fairly well (*cough* Fox *sough* Sonic). Yes, there will be disagreements but (silly of me to forget), those are the important parts of match up discussions. Who makes the most sense? What seems to be the most logical? If you guys have a score, you better be sure that you can back it up

Some (only two actually) characters are OPEN for re-discussion. Diddy Kong and Sheik are re-opened. If you guys want to re-discuss a character though, just feel free to hover on the right stock icon and post~

Oh, and I'll be strict with moderating the match up discussions. Flaming and trolling will not be tolerated. Useless match up inputs (i.e: Shulk beats Sakurai 100-0 /end) will be counted as spam

Sorry for the sudden changes but I hope you guys are fine with it :D

 

[Neo Zero]

Didn't last long at all but me and @ Neo Zero talked about the match ups scores. After a conversation (it only lasted for 2 replies lmao), we decided that it's best to put the scoring system back up. We're going to need to rate match ups one way or another. I know it's really difficult to disregard bias for your character, but do it (or try your best) so that things will be much easier and fairer. Just be logical and as unbiased as possible. Remember that you guys know Shulk very well and you know there are those characters that can exploit his weaknesses fairly well (*cough* Fox *sough* Sonic). Yes, there will be disagreements but (silly of me to forget), those are the important parts of match up discussions. Who makes the most sense? What seems to be the most logical? If you guys have a score, you better be sure that you can back it up

Some (only two actually) characters are OPEN for re-discussion. Diddy Kong and Sheik are re-opened. If you guys want to re-discuss a character though, just feel free to hover on the right stock icon and post~

Oh, and I'll be strict with moderating the match up discussions. Flaming and trolling will not be tolerated. Useless match up inputs (i.e: Shulk beats Sakurai 100-0 /end) will be counted as spam

Sorry for the sudden changes but I hope you guys are fine with it :D

What can I say, I get to the point.

#FreeNumbers

 

[erico9001]

Didn't last long at all but me and @ Neo Zero talked about the match ups scores. After a conversation (it only lasted for 2 replies lmao), we decided that it's best to put the scoring system back up. We're going to need to rate match ups one way or another. I know it's really difficult to disregard bias for your character, but do it (or try your best) so that things will be much easier and fairer. Just be logical and as unbiased as possible. Remember that you guys know Shulk very well and you know there are those characters that can exploit his weaknesses fairly well (*cough* Fox *sough* Sonic). Yes, there will be disagreements but (silly of me to forget), those are the important parts of match up discussions. Who makes the most sense? What seems to be the most logical? If you guys have a score, you better be sure that you can back it up

Some (only two actually) characters are OPEN for re-discussion. Diddy Kong and Sheik are re-opened. If you guys want to re-discuss a character though, just feel free to hover on the right stock icon and post~

Oh, and I'll be strict with moderating the match up discussions. Flaming and trolling will not be tolerated. Useless match up inputs (i.e: Shulk beats Sakurai 100-0 /end) will be counted as spam

Sorry for the sudden changes but I hope you guys are fine with it :D

@_@

Ok, that's still good.

 

[Neo Zero]

Just thought I'd pop in and show @ Jae s finished product

 

[Berserker.]

Thank you Jae ;w;

 

[Jae]

Thank you Jae ;w;

I do it for the Monado

 

[Maple42]

Perhaps once we have a decent grasp on what characters have an extremely good match-up against us (it seems to be rushdown characters), we can mathematically figure out who would be the best pocket character against them? 'Twould be a use for the numbers system; however, I do agree that excessive arguing about the numbering system is a bit distracting.

 

[Berserker.]

Perhaps once we have a decent grasp on what characters have an extremely good match-up against us (it seems to be rushdown characters), we can mathematically figure out who would be the best pocket character against them? 'Twould be a use for the numbers system; however, I do agree that excessive arguing about the numbering system is a bit distracting.

It's not really rushdown characters that are Shulk's bane. It's mostly characters that specialize fairly well in punishing. Hi Sonic, Hi Fox, maybe hi Sheik I guess. Luckily, I don't think any character in the roster really merits a -3 (basically in other words: unwinnable) but if you're trying to win a tournament -2 is something that can be considered as a wall for winning

We don't really need to discuss which pocket character could work against them. Just go to the other match up thread and see it there instead imo

 

[Disgaea D2]

What is the MU for G&W versus Shulk? If I remember correctly blocked smashes and reckless counters equal grab punishes and predictable recovery is a gimp opportunity. Anything else I missed for G&W?

 

[Maple42]

NAir is probably the most dangerous move against Game And Watch; it cancels his projectiles, outranges all of his aerials, and blocks grab attempts. As such, Shulk will most likely be in Speed and Jump Arts most of the match.

 

[Berserker.]

Guys. I'm not start up a match up thread with like one vote. Lol.

Be wary of which character you vote though~


Since I know this character very well and SFLR probably knows her so well, and so does Nammy and Kenniky, I'm definitely going for

OP has been updated

 

[Linkmario00]

I vote for next.

 

[Berserker.]

OP updated

 

[Maple42]

Voting for Palutena ~!

 

[Berserker.]

So much x1's

It hurts

lol

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Wait, you're voting for Zelda @ Berserker. ? Lol. I guess I'll vote for her too since I've mained her in every game and pretty much know her inside out. I've also played a lot of good Zeldas from the Zelda social as Shulk, so I have a lot of experience in this MU.

 

[Berserker.]

Wait, you're voting for Zelda @ Berserker. ? Lol. I guess I'll vote for her too since I've mained her in every game and pretty much know her inside out. I've also played a lot of good Zeldas from the Zelda social as Shulk, so I have a lot of experience in this MU.

I'm doing it because I've also used Zelda. I still do well with her offline so I have a good idea on how this match up works.