Shrine Maiden of Paradise ~ Reimu Hakurei (Touhou Project)

zriL

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Here are my thoughts on the doujin rumor: as it stands, taking the 1st post at face value it's probably fake. If we were supposed to take it that Reimu was in development at the time it was initially posted, then too much time has passed. I'm sorry but Covid delay or not, I don't believe it would take 18 months to develop Reimu, no matter how complex the concept. In that time span she should have been in FP1.
I don't think this argument really stands. For all DLC characters, the deal is done much before the development begins. So if Doujin Leaker has heard of the deal around that time, it's perfectly possible that Reimu could be anywhere in FP2. That's also why Reimu was unlikely to be in FP1, the timing at which ZUN claimed to be trying to get her into Smash was too late for FP1, unless he was already trying for at least a year.

At least, I think Doujin Leaker timing fits because he got the "information" around the period during which ZUN was apparently trying to negociate with Nintendo and around the time FP2 was being validated. So he would simply have heard that the deal was successful, but he wouldn't be able to know when Reimu would come. For all we know, a deal around summer 2019 could be the last deal made for FP2, since it was confirmed around that time. This could mean Reimu is the last character, or at least not in the first three (if they are still developing three at a time). She could also be the reason why the pass has 6 characters, maybe they had already 5 characters planned and then ZUN came and said "hey I wand to join too".

The rest of the leaks are probably only rumors, but the fact the Doujin Leaker has had some real information at some point is definitely a good things for us.
 
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There are many reasons why I don't think Doujin Leak is legit. Yes, even if he had official manga scans in advance, i feel he might have a reach in that, but I pretty much doubt most of what is beyond that.

I mean... part of it is because the person literally says its all made up and along the lines of "Was Reimu that likely to begin with?"
- There is no way that such confidential information was heard in a public space like that
- That he heard all these songs and remembered them clearly
- I wouldnt call "Yes there will be a AoCF port for Switch" a surprising leak and rather easily to be speculated since this happened after Touhou fangames got the Ok to get onto the Switch, and its just likely that with the PS4 port confirmed, that a Switch port could follow since Fangames are also good to go.
- I think it was the mobile games or a rhythm game crossover? The epic "leak" of "Reimu will appear somewhere and will wear a yellow tie" so as in... "Yes she will appear in a collab with her most common design."
- The speculations are really really bad, seriously. Yukari as Arsene? The Ship instead of the Hakurei Shrine as a Stage? The thing with Marisa and Geno? What the heck, lol.

I've already had to deal with numerous debates of people defending this leak like their soul depends on it, and every time i point flaws out it means "Yeah well THAT part was speculation but this is legit because it is and it totally fits the timeline of events."

I'm sorry but nah. I can't believe this a bit until the guy comes forth with something thats substantial.
 

BernkastelWitch

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Regardless if the leak is real or fake, I am glad that it did bring discussion on Reimu regardless. In a weird way, it kind of felt like a trojan horse for people discussing her, even before ZUN admitted to liking the idea of her in Smash.

I do feel like part of the reason it gained as much traction as it did is because it brought someone new to talk about. Really, it's usually the same five-seven names being brought up for Smash discussion then this supposed leak appears mentioning Reimu and now look. Support for her exploded big time.

So I do appreciate said leak even if it is fake if only for shaking up discussion for Smash a bit.
 
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You should be able to use this link right here to learn about the doujin leak and more. I do not remeber who made this but props to them for creating it in the first place. https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/167sqKPkODtNysnUDsQK9XSM7Uof3watSJjyk_8AXuwo/edit#slide=id.p

Edit: I belive the creator for the slide is CommanderZaktan CommanderZaktan .
Thanks! Anyways, from what I can gather, it's gone on for longer than logically necessary, but at the same time it's got a few good points and there's nothing to explicitly deconfirm it, since unlike, say, CacoMallow, we haven't seen anything that would imply Reimu is done beyond COVID delays. In short, it's that one thing that's kinda sitting there in the background and we can't pull the plug on it just yet.
I'd say the killswitch date is FP7, because if Reimu was going to be the first but was delayed by COVID, there's no real reason to push her back any farther than that. Assuming she would've been released around the time we got the ARMS announcement, about six months is as I could imagine her going, especially since Japan's beginning to reopen. Still, that's a long time to be tossed around.
For me, the thing that sells it is the Hakurei Shrine trademark. Why would you file a trademark for something like that if you're not doing something big with it?
There are many reasons why I don't think Doujin Leak is legit. Yes, even if he had official manga scans in advance, i feel he might have a reach in that, but I pretty much doubt most of what is beyond that.

I mean... part of it is because the person literally says its all made up and along the lines of "Was Reimu that likely to begin with?"
- There is no way that such confidential information was heard in a public space like that
- That he heard all these songs and remembered them clearly
- I wouldnt call "Yes there will be a AoCF port for Switch" a surprising leak and rather easily to be speculated since this happened after Touhou fangames got the Ok to get onto the Switch, and its just likely that with the PS4 port confirmed, that a Switch port could follow since Fangames are also good to go.
- I think it was the mobile games or a rhythm game crossover? The epic "leak" of "Reimu will appear somewhere and will wear a yellow tie" so as in... "Yes she will appear in a collab with her most common design."
- The speculations are really really bad, seriously. Yukari as Arsene? The Ship instead of the Hakurei Shrine as a Stage? The thing with Marisa and Geno? What the heck, lol.

I've already had to deal with numerous debates of people defending this leak like their soul depends on it, and every time i point flaws out it means "Yeah well THAT part was speculation but this is legit because it is and it totally fits the timeline of events."

I'm sorry but nah. I can't believe this a bit until the guy comes forth with something thats substantial.
I suppose some of the concepts are a bit odd. The ship, in particular, doesn't quite match up with the Hakurei Shrine trademark, assuming said trademark means anything. It's also possible that were actually are getting Reimu, but the leaker didn't know that or filled in some blanks that he didn't know for sure. I think back in Smash 4 there was a fake Palutena leak but we got Palu anyways, so it might be something like that.

Plus, if he's getting the info from doujin circles that would hypothetically be composing remixes, I wouldn't be surprised if all they knew was the Reimu was in Smash and they were spitballing some ideas while waiting. I mean, leaking Youkai Buster sounds oddly specific, if you ask me.
 
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Not to downplay this, but there've been trademarks that have been refreshed without anything big happening. I mean, just look at Eternal Darkness. But I see your point and agree.
That's fair. Still, I find the Hakurei Shrine trademark to be rather odd. Whenever trademarks are brought up in speculation, usually it's the IP or the character, not a specific location. But hey, I don't really know how trademarks work, especially regarding locations like with this, so...
 

Sc_Ev0lution

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At least, I think Doujin Leaker timing fits because he got the "information" around the period during which ZUN was apparently trying to negociate with Nintendo and around the time FP2 was being validated.
As I understand it, ZUN's statement was less "I've asked Nintendo to include Reimu in Smash" and more "gee, wouldn't it be cool if Reimu were in Smash? I should work hard to get there."

But if anyone has a link to the full interview, that would be most appreciated.
 

CommanderZaktan

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As I understand it, ZUN's statement was less "I've asked Nintendo to include Reimu in Smash" and more "gee, wouldn't it be cool if Reimu were in Smash? I should work hard to get there."

But if anyone has a link to the full interview, that would be most appreciated.
People often quote this ZUN Interview out of context but this was in regards to wanting Touhou collaborations in general, and Smash is seen as a pipe dream. (which he can't realize without doing anything for it)

 

zriL

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I mean... part of it is because the person literally says its all made up and along the lines of "Was Reimu that likely to begin with?"
- There is no way that such confidential information was heard in a public space like that
- That he heard all these songs and remembered them clearly
- I wouldnt call "Yes there will be a AoCF port for Switch" a surprising leak and rather easily to be speculated since this happened after Touhou fangames got the Ok to get onto the Switch, and its just likely that with the PS4 port confirmed, that a Switch port could follow since Fangames are also good to go.
- I think it was the mobile games or a rhythm game crossover? The epic "leak" of "Reimu will appear somewhere and will wear a yellow tie" so as in... "Yes she will appear in a collab with her most common design."
- The speculations are really really bad, seriously. Yukari as Arsene? The Ship instead of the Hakurei Shrine as a Stage? The thing with Marisa and Geno? What the heck, lol.

"Was Reimu that likely to begin with?".
He could have said that because of Nintendo ninjas, I mean if some of his leaks were true, Nintendo would definitely be onto him.
Or he's now really annoyed by his new fame and he wants to be left alone, this would work regardless if what he said were true or not.

"There is no way that such confidential information was heard in a public space like that"
What information are you referring to ? What make you think it has to be in public space ?

"That he heard all these songs and remembered them clearly"
I always found the music leak weird, but it could happen if the list came from the same artist that would do all of these remixes.

"AoCF port for Switch"
Easy guess yeah

"mobile games or a rhythm game crossover"
I don't remember this one.

"The speculations are really really bad"
It doesn't really matter. You don't have to be smart to be a leaker. Honestly it's quite the opposite.


I'm not trying hard to defend his credibility, I don't believe Reimu's likeness comes from him. But honestly, it's not very hard to imagine the leak being true. Given how Touhou works, it's very likely things would leak, but at the same time any leak would look fake no matter what it is. The Touhou community is capable of so many things, I don't think any leak would mean anything anyways.

Also, I thought his credibility actually came from older stuff (like manga spoilers ?), this is what we should talk about. If he had some information once, he could have more, that's a fact. All of his recent weird "speculation" doesn't really matter for this.


People often quote this ZUN Interview out of context but this was in regards to wanting Touhou collaborations in general, and Smash is seen as a pipe dream. (which he can't realize without doing anything for it)
No matter how you look at it, it cannot be more explicit. This means he would try to get in Smash, or that he has already tried. This is still the biggest thing Touhou needed to get in Smash. And it turns out the timing is perfect for FP2.
 
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"Was Reimu that likely to begin with?".
He could have said that because of Nintendo ninjas, I mean if some of his leaks were true, Nintendo would definitely be onto him.
Or he's now really annoyed by his new fame and he wants to be left alone, this would work regardless if what he said were true or not.

"There is no way that such confidential information was heard in a public space like that"
What information are you referring to ? What make you think it has to be in public space ?

"That he heard all these songs and remembered them clearly"
I always found the music leak weird, but it could happen if the list came from the same artist that would do all of these remixes.

"AoCF port for Switch"
Easy guess yeah

"mobile games or a rhythm game crossover"
I don't remember this one.

"The speculations are really really bad"
It doesn't really matter. You don't have to be smart to be a leaker. Honestly it's quite the opposite.


I'm not trying hard to defend his credibility, I don't believe Reimu's likeness comes from him. But honestly, it's not very hard to imagine the leak being true. Given how Touhou works, it's very likely things would leak, but at the same time any leak would look fake no matter what it is. The Touhou community is capable of so many things, I don't think any leak would mean anything anyways.

Also, I thought his credibility actually came from older stuff (like manga spoilers ?), this is what we should talk about. If he had some information once, he could have more, that's a fact. All of his recent weird "speculation" doesn't really matter for this.




No matter how you look at it, it cannot be more explicit. This means he would try to get in Smash, or that he has already tried. This is still the biggest thing Touhou needed to get in Smash. And it turns out the timing is perfect for FP2.
The thing is he did leak some stuff accurately, so it's possible he was right again. I do imagine it might take a year to negotiate the rights, plan everything out, and actually put it all together from the time of the interview, but COVID likely made interaction with ZUN difficult at first. This would necessitate Reimu being pushed back and Min Min becoming the pass starter. However, she was made with a summer release in mind and wasn't ready yet, hence the guessing game. Nintendo probably didn't want competing DLCs, so Reimu would be shoved back half a year. By then, Japan's beginning to get things under control, allowing Reimu's development to resume as normal. It's a long time to be around, yes, but with current events, it's at least somewhat understandable.

There's also the fact that many other hints, like the ZUN interview and the trademark bot, were uncovered independent of the doujin leak, so it's possible he's right about some things but not all, or he just got lucky. Either way, we can't go and ask him, because from the looks of it he went into cryosleep after the ARMS rep announcement.
 
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The thing is he did leak some stuff accurately, so it's possible he was right again. I do imagine it might take a year to negotiate the rights, plan everything out, and actually put it all together from the time of the interview, but COVID likely made interaction with ZUN difficult at first. This would necessitate Reimu being pushed back and Min Min becoming the pass starter. However, she was made with a summer release in mind and wasn't ready yet, hence the guessing game. Nintendo probably didn't want competing DLCs, so Reimu would be shoved back half a year. By then, Japan's beginning to get things under control, allowing Reimu's development to resume as normal. It's a long time to be around, yes, but with current events, it's at least somewhat understandable.

There's also the fact that many other hints, like the ZUN interview and the trademark bot, were uncovered independent of the doujin leak, so it's possible he's right about some things but not all, or he just got lucky. Either way, we can't go and ask him, because from the looks of it he went into cryosleep after the ARMS rep announcement.
I don't think it'd take over a solid year for negotiations for Reimu to be in Smash, coronavirus notwithstanding. I mean, we all know ZUN's incredibly relaxed when it comes to Touhou copyrights, right? If he wasn't there wouldn't be all these doujin circles dedicated to Touhou or all those wild fangames. And knowing Nintendo, they probably do their homework on which developers they're negotiating with when it comes to adding characters to Smash, that's why Sakurai had Slime as a backup offer if negotiations for Hero didn't fall through.
 
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I don't think it'd take over a solid year for negotiations for Reimu to be in Smash, coronavirus notwithstanding. I mean, we all know ZUN's incredibly relaxed when it comes to Touhou copyrights, right? If he wasn't there wouldn't be all these doujin circles dedicated to Touhou or all those wild fangames. And knowing Nintendo, they probably do their homework on which developers they're negotiating with when it comes to adding characters to Smash, that's why Sakurai had Slime as a backup offer if negotiations for Hero didn't fall through.
Hmm... Maybe they were just planning things out in advance or something? I don't know too much about how these work...
Still, it's not negotiating rights for a whole year. Assuming we go from the ZUN interview in April to the filming of Byeth's trailer in November, that's about 6-7 months. Still a while, but Reimu's definitely not the only character planned.

Generally, the doujin leak has some good points, but it's just gone on for so long, lurking in the background without a way to pull the plug just yet. FP7 would be the killswitch, and then we can at least put it to rest. And hey, it's not necessarily the only way to get Reimu in Smash, right? I do believe there have been fake leaks that predicted a character we ended up getting anyways.
 

TheTuninator

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I never put too much stock in the doujin leak, but I tend to agree that there's no way Nintendo would have doujin circles developing music for a DLC that was like a year out. Doubly so when you consider that it presumably wouldn't take them too much time to produce new arranges in their existing style, something they should be very comfortable with. Still, I agree that even if fake it was nice to get people talking about Reimu and Touhou, & hopefully to realize the incredible amount of potential she brings to the table!

Also, on the subject of Reimu's reception, I genuinely can't see any world in which she wouldn't be very well received by fans here in the West. I imagine the "literally who" factor would dissipate quite quickly given her unique (with regards to the rest of the cast) character design, unique moveset, and general cute anime girl appeal. Similar to DQ Hero, you'd have a very quick initial "literally who" reaction which dissipates as soon as people get a good look at the character.
 
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PK-remling Fire

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After reading all the current info, as much as I want Reimu in the doujin leak really has no legs to stand on anymore. From what I'm seeing the leaker only got two things right years ago and kept making predictions that never really pulled through, but can't be "disproven" because there was never a specific date set.

The most damning thing though is saying that Reimu was supposed to be revealed as FP6 but was delayed because of quarantine. There's very little reason for something like that to happen if the fighter already had their licenses sorted out and was presumably being worked on in 2019 as the leak suggests.

The only thing that intrigues me is the whole Sponsor X thing. It might not be Smash or even Nintendo related, but if it's big enough to warrant being kept secret until some point in 2020, it has my attention.

Shame, because a Reimu/Yukari duo fighter sounds pretty sick
 
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..I imagine the "literally who" factor would dissipate quite quickly given her unique (with regards to the rest of the cast) character design, unique moveset, and general cute anime girl appeal...
If anything that'll lead to people complaining about being "too weeby" and whining that people only care about her for being a "waifu." Because of course they would.
After reading all the current info, as much as I want Reimu in the doujin leak really has no legs to stand on anymore. From what I'm seeing the leaker only got two things right years ago and kept making predictions that never really pulled through, but can't be "disproven" because there was never a specific date set.

The most damning thing though is saying that Reimu was supposed to be revealed as FP6 but was delayed because of quarantine. There's very little reason for something like that to happen if the fighter already had their licenses sorted out and was presumably being worked on in 2019 as the leak suggests.

The only thing that intrigues me is the whole Sponsor X thing. It might not be Smash or even Nintendo related, but if it's big enough to warrant being kept secret until some point in 2020, it has my attention.

Shame, because a Reimu/Yukari duo fighter sounds pretty sick
I agree on the point that it's gone on for so long but we can't quite disprove it. At least we can put it to rest presumably this September, with the new amiibos and presumably FP7. Still, the slide made a couple good points that are separate from Doujin Leaker, like the trademarks and the aforementioned Sponsor X, so there's still some hope. After all, deconfirmed leaks don't necessarily equate to deconfirmed fighters, right?
 
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The leak sounds a bit farfetched but I admit the trademark thing does have me quite intrigued.

Since Lip is a mii costume, Reimu is the only character left that I actively want in smash, so my fingers are always crossed.
Has there been any other times where a location is regularly trademarked and nothing big happens? I get the Touhou Project and Doujin Music, but the Hakurei Shrine? That's not a usual trademark, at least not to my knowledge. Usually, they just renew the IP and the characters.

Oh, funny story. Apparently, one guy actually successfully trademarked the Touhou Project name, but nothing happened because he trademarked it in all Japanese, while the actual, official title is 東方 Project, sudden English intentional. Funny how that works, isn't it?
 

BernkastelWitch

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Also, on the subject of Reimu's reception, I genuinely can't see any world in which she wouldn't be very well received by fans here in the West. I imagine the "literally who" factor would dissipate quite quickly given her unique (with regards to the rest of the cast) character design, unique moveset, and general cute anime girl appeal. Similar to DQ Hero, you'd have a very quick initial "literally who" reaction which dissipates as soon as people get a good look at the character.
I'm convinced just about every character, even the likes of Waluigi, Sora, and Geno will have some sort of backlash on them and not just Reimu. I imagine if Reimu gets in FP2, she can be the "Terry Bogard" of the pass. The people who know her will be extremely excited while everyone else will either lash out extremely fast or will wait for the inevitable Gameplay showcase before making a judgment. The anti-anime crowd will lose their heads, though... But given how FP1 was with the exception of Banjo, I imagine they freaked out over there too.

And if we have to block characters who may cause a stir in the fanbase, we may as well not bring in new characters since every character, even the most commonly discussed ones will have some sort of backlash to them. Not just a thing with Reimu, but with literally everyone else.

Has there been any other times where a location is regularly trademarked and nothing big happens? I get the Touhou Project and Doujin Music, but the Hakurei Shrine? That's not a usual trademark, at least not to my knowledge. Usually, they just renew the IP and the characters.
This is a bit curious too. Like if it was the Touhou project name or whatnot I wouldn't bat too much of an eye as well as doujin circle music. But given it's the Hakurei Shrine, that's extremely curious simply due to how specific it is. If it isn't something Smash or a guest appearance in another game then what will it be? And if I remember right, something similar happened with Banjo-Kazooie before he was shown off. Of course it depends on when the Hakurei Shrine trademark came down and FP2's announcement but it's still something to look into.
 
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I'm convinced just about every character, even the likes of Waluigi, Sora, and Geno will have some sort of backlash on them and not just Reimu. I imagine if Reimu gets in FP2, she can be the "Terry Bogard" of the pass. The people who know her will be extremely excited while everyone else will either lash out extremely fast or will wait for the inevitable Gameplay showcase before making a judgment. The anti-anime crowd will lose their heads, though... But given how FP1 was with the exception of Banjo, I imagine they freaked out over there too.

And if we have to block characters who may cause a stir in the fanbase, we may as well not bring in new characters since every character, even the most commonly discussed ones will have some sort of backlash to them. Not just a thing with Reimu, but with literally everyone else.



This is a bit curious too. Like if it was the Touhou project name or whatnot I wouldn't bat too much of an eye as well as doujin circle music. But given it's the Hakurei Shrine, that's extremely curious simply due to how specific it is. If it isn't something Smash or a guest appearance in another game then what will it be? And if I remember right, something similar happened with Banjo-Kazooie before he was shown off. Of course it depends on when the Hakurei Shrine trademark came down and FP2's announcement but it's still something to look into.
There's also the question of how anime Reimu would look, since Touhou's standard art style and spinoff art style tends to be quite different. If we go the ZUN art route, she'd look more like an EarthBound character with bigger eyes, but she'd look more like a standard anime character if we base her off of the fighters or the upcoming Gouyoku Ibun.

Apparently, the trademarks were filed around February. Perhaps they were filed with the intent of releasing Reimu's DLC a couple moths later until COVID threw all the release dates into question. Apparently, there's also been some Rayman trademarks filed as well. Given Ubisoft's growing presence with Nintendo and the end of the Spirits rule, that might be something to consider as well. Any other notable trademarks as of late?
 

Sc_Ev0lution

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Trademarks rarely mean anything in regards to Smash, Isaac fans learned that the hard way.

I'll admit that the Hakurei Shrine trademark seems kinda odd, but it would be all too easy to fall for conformation bias and say "obviously this is for Reimu's smash stage!" I think all possibilities should be exhausted before we reach that conclusion.

For example, the in-game Hakurei Shrine is, in part, based upon an actual shrine. Maybe this copyright is meant as a protection to help differentiate ZUN's IP?

Or, if we're to take this copyright as a preparation for a more mainstream crossover, who's to say that crossover will be in Smash?
 
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There's also the question of how anime Reimu would look, since Touhou's standard art style and spinoff art style tends to be quite different. If we go the ZUN art route, she'd look more like an EarthBound character with bigger eyes, but she'd look more like a standard anime character if we base her off of the fighters or the upcoming Gouyoku Ibun.
Say, that does sound interesting. Didn't Ness have a vanishing eye glitch or something? I mean, Bayonetta's glitch, which was found in the same patch, was pertaining to Min Min due to how the latter's Smash attacks work as well as her Dragon Arm. So if Reimu was initially gonna lead off Fighters Pass 2 before they supposedly swapped her out with Min Min, the eye glitch makes sense. But what sort of eye-related thing is there to follow in Touhou? What could Reimu possibly do that relates to the eyes?

Apparently, the trademarks were filed around February. Perhaps they were filed with the intent of releasing Reimu's DLC a couple moths later until COVID threw all the release dates into question. Apparently, there's also been some Rayman trademarks filed as well. Given Ubisoft's growing presence with Nintendo and the end of the Spirits rule, that might be something to consider as well. Any other notable trademarks as of late?
That would sort of make sense. I mean, Bernkastel's right about the trademark thing, Banjo-Kazooie was trademarked back in October, and we eventually would get a reveal for them about 8 months later. The Rayman trademarks I personally never heard about, so that'll be something.

But that begs the question: which Challenger Pack would Reimu be in? Min Min started us off in this second pass, and if it's actually true, Reimu was supposed to be Challenger Pack 6 before COVID supposedly shook things up. But the question is: would it be CP7 or others? I recall a very popular theory about Geno being revealed on July 7th. I won't put any stock into this because: 1) Min Min will have just released by then. I don't see why Sakurai would reveal another character so soon after. 2) Having Nintendo plan a specific day for a specific character reveal by then is a little iffy, and the only example where that happened (Little Mac) was nothing but coincidence. So yeah, if this day passes with no character reveal (I'm fairly certain that'll happen), then this supports the Min Min/Reimu swap theory even further. But if July 7th does have a character reveal, that means that Reimu would possibly be in CP8 or beyond.
 
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Sc_Ev0lution

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I never bought into the "Reimu swap" rumor/theory but even I'll admit it's more likely than this Geno silliness. Literally all I can see going for it is a bunch of coincidences around the number seven. And I get it, seven is an important number in the context of SMRPG but common, Nintendo never does anything like this, and there's no basis for it other than for the meme. No insiders, no past pattern, no business reason, nothing.

And on the assumption that "Reimu swap" is legit... then swap means swap. It's CP7 or it's fake.
 

PK-remling Fire

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There's also the question of how anime Reimu would look, since Touhou's standard art style and spinoff art style tends to be quite different. If we go the ZUN art route, she'd look more like an EarthBound character with bigger eyes, but she'd look more like a standard anime character if we base her off of the fighters or the upcoming Gouyoku Ibun.
If Reimu got in, I hope that her character design would at least try to emulate ZUN's style instead of just being a standard anime character. It would both be charming as hell and make her more unique looking among the other anime-looking characters.
 
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Say, that does sound interesting. Didn't Ness have a vanishing eye glitch or something? I mean, Bayonetta's glitch, which was found in the same patch, was pertaining to Min Min due to how the latter's Smash attacks work as well as her Dragon Arm. So if Reimu was initially gonna lead off Fighters Pass 2 before they supposedly swapped her out with Min Min, the eye glitch makes sense. But what sort of eye-related thing is there to follow in Touhou? What could Reimu possibly do that relates to the eyes?
uuh can't Reisen's eyes drive you insane?
But if taking this seriously, then maybe they're basing her off of Ness' model but with some edits to the face. I suppose that would necessitate the removal of Ness' eyes during the transition, though maybe I'm just reaching.
That would sort of make sense. I mean, Bernkastel's right about the trademark thing, Banjo-Kazooie was trademarked back in October, and we eventually would get a reveal for them about 8 months later. The Rayman trademarks I personally never heard about, so that'll be something.

But that begs the question: which Challenger Pack would Reimu be in? Min Min started us off in this second pass, and if it's actually true, Reimu was supposed to be Challenger Pack 6 before COVID supposedly shook things up. But the question is: would it be CP7 or others? I recall a very popular theory about Geno being revealed on July 7th. I won't put any stock into this because: 1) Min Min will have just released by then. I don't see why Sakurai would reveal another character so soon after. 2) Having Nintendo plan a specific day for a specific character reveal by then is a little iffy, and the only example where that happened (Little Mac) was nothing but coincidence. So yeah, if this day passes with no character reveal (I'm fairly certain that'll happen), then this supports the Min Min/Reimu swap theory even further. But if July 7th does have a character reveal, that means that Reimu would possibly be in CP8 or beyond.
I mean, she could be in CP8 if they're developed in bunches of three. This would especially work out if we're getting another first-party, since they could be more easily developed without checking in with the owners. Still, with how well Japan's handling COVID, it would make the most sense to launch her on CP7. There's also nothing saying July 7th couldn't have Reimu if we get anything there at all, because as we all know, Nintendo doesn't really care about funny release dates.
Trademarks rarely mean anything in regards to Smash, Isaac fans learned that the hard way.

I'll admit that the Hakurei Shrine trademark seems kinda odd, but it would be all too easy to fall for conformation bias and say "obviously this is for Reimu's smash stage!" I think all possibilities should be exhausted before we reach that conclusion.

For example, the in-game Hakurei Shrine is, in part, based upon an actual shrine. Maybe this copyright is meant as a protection to help differentiate ZUN's IP?

Or, if we're to take this copyright as a preparation for a more mainstream crossover, who's to say that crossover will be in Smash?
Wait, really? That's pretty interesting, actually.
 
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zriL

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 7, 2020
Messages
78
Unless we really want to believe the doujin leak, there is no reason to believe Reimu should be early in the pass rather than later.

There is still the possibility of the swap with Min-Min because of the Reitaisai cancellation, but that's always been only speculation.

I think Reimu could have been a good first pick because she's a bit unexpected, like Joker was. But right now, Reimu is more like a Terry pick that would work best in the middle of the pass and outside of the E3 timing.
 
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Troykv

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 24, 2015
Messages
3,880
Say, that does sound interesting. Didn't Ness have a vanishing eye glitch or something? I mean, Bayonetta's glitch, which was found in the same patch, was pertaining to Min Min due to how the latter's Smash attacks work as well as her Dragon Arm. So if Reimu was initially gonna lead off Fighters Pass 2 before they supposedly swapped her out with Min Min, the eye glitch makes sense. But what sort of eye-related thing is there to follow in Touhou? What could Reimu possibly do that relates to the eyes?



That would sort of make sense. I mean, Bernkastel's right about the trademark thing, Banjo-Kazooie was trademarked back in October, and we eventually would get a reveal for them about 8 months later. The Rayman trademarks I personally never heard about, so that'll be something.

But that begs the question: which Challenger Pack would Reimu be in? Min Min started us off in this second pass, and if it's actually true, Reimu was supposed to be Challenger Pack 6 before COVID supposedly shook things up. But the question is: would it be CP7 or others? I recall a very popular theory about Geno being revealed on July 7th. I won't put any stock into this because: 1) Min Min will have just released by then. I don't see why Sakurai would reveal another character so soon after. 2) Having Nintendo plan a specific day for a specific character reveal by then is a little iffy, and the only example where that happened (Little Mac) was nothing but coincidence. So yeah, if this day passes with no character reveal (I'm fairly certain that'll happen), then this supports the Min Min/Reimu swap theory even further. But if July 7th does have a character reveal, that means that Reimu would possibly be in CP8 or beyond.
Well, unlike Ness, Reimu would have actual eyes with pupils and everything
 

Kapus

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Apparently, the trademarks were filed around February.
Dang, I know it's not much to go off of, but considering the case with Banjo I can't help but get excited at the prospect that Reimu actually is part of the pass. I should keep my expectations low but I can't help it!

Though, that said, even having Touhou feature in another crossover game would be really cool and I'd still be happy to see that.
 
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Dang, I know it's not much to go off of, but considering the case with Banjo I can't help but get excited at the prospect that Reimu actually is part of the pass. I should keep my expectations low but I can't help it!

Though, that said, even having Touhou feature in another crossover game would be really cool and I'd still be happy to see that.
Reimu for hypothetical Devil May Cry 6
Well, unlike Ness, Reimu would have actual eyes with pupils and everything
Yeah, I think I said something about that too. She'd match up with Ness fairly well in proportions, even if it's not a perfect match, and they might be used as a basis for general design. The most amount of changes, beyond the obvious point for clothing, would be the head, eyes included. If Reimu is based on Ness, the eyes would be the biggest difference and would most likely be the first to go in the editing.
Unless we really want to believe the doujin leak, there is no reason to believe Reimu should be early in the pass rather than later.

There is still the possibility of the swap with Min-Min because of the Reitaisai cancellation, but that's always been only speculation.

I think Reimu could have been a good first pick because she's a bit unexpected, like Joker was. But right now, Reimu is more like a Terry pick that would work best in the middle of the pass and outside of the E3 timing.
But if she was going to be the starter, it wouldn't make much sense to shove her back so far. Assuming she would've been in March before COVID struck, she'd take up the place where the planned CP8 would go, while Min Min got bumped up a spot. Not saying she has to be early in the pass, of course, but the swap theory would mean that any more than six months delay would be a rather odd decision.
 

PK-remling Fire

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 22, 2018
Messages
360
Yeah, I keep needing to tell myself that all the evidence is most likely just coincidental. Even though I got three of my most wanted characters in and have the right to never ask for anything ever again, I would absolutely freak out if Reimu or someone from Touhou in general got into Smash Bros. Hell, even if it was just a mii costume and a music track I'd still pop off a little.
 

Sc_Ev0lution

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 22, 2016
Messages
186
Ok, maybe I'm a little off-base here, but I wanna ask:

Now that Min Min is in Smash and we know Sakurai can be a bit more, uh, even handed when considering which protagonist to include, does this make Reimu ever so slightly less likely because Marisa is put on the table?

I've got my own thoughts, but I'd like to hear your opinions.
 
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Ok, maybe I'm a little off-base here, but I wanna ask:

Now that Min Min is in Smash and we know Sakurai can be a bit more, uh, even handed when considering which protagonist to include, does this make Reimu ever so slightly less likely because Marisa is put on the table?

I've got my own thoughts, but I'd like to hear your opinions.
Unless ZUN specifically asks Sakurai for Marisa, I doubt it. Reimu's still largely the face of the series, which has been around for decades. ARMS, on the other hand, is still fresh and young, and lacks a real plotline anyways, so there's more leeway for who would be in Smash.
 
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Ok, maybe I'm a little off-base here, but I wanna ask:

Now that Min Min is in Smash and we know Sakurai can be a bit more, uh, even handed when considering which protagonist to include, does this make Reimu ever so slightly less likely because Marisa is put on the table?

I've got my own thoughts, but I'd like to hear your opinions.
I don't think so. Touhou doesn't have the luxury of having every character be the protagonist like ARMS does. Reimu's been consistently the protagonist of the Touhou franchise since Highly Responsive to Prayers. Marisa didn't show up until the game after, and even then she wasn't playable until the game after that. If anyone's gonna be in Smash, it'd be Reimu.
 

EarlTamm

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Messages
7,145
Ok, maybe I'm a little off-base here, but I wanna ask:

Now that Min Min is in Smash and we know Sakurai can be a bit more, uh, even handed when considering which protagonist to include, does this make Reimu ever so slightly less likely because Marisa is put on the table?

I've got my own thoughts, but I'd like to hear your opinions.
I don't think that is a risk to Reimu. ARMS is a fighting game with an ensemble cast and a one game legacy, so choosing some other character is very easy. Reimu has been the main protag since the start and a constant presence. Sure, there are other notable starring characters, but I doubt many would argue anyone exceeds Reimu in main character status and as the representative figure for Touhou.
 

PK-remling Fire

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Messages
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I think if Nintendo put in a Touhou character Reimu would still be the frontrunner. She's the unquestionable main character plus she has popularity on her side. She constantly scores first place in the annual touhou wiki popularity polls (only getting 2nd place to Koishi in 2015). If we were to equate it to ARMS, she basically has the best qualities of both Min Min and Springman (aside from being the creator's pet, that position goes to Aya).
 
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I think if Nintendo put in a Touhou character Reimu would still be the frontrunner. She's the unquestionable main character plus she has popularity on her side. She constantly scores first place in the annual touhou wiki popularity polls (only getting 2nd place to Koishi in 2015). If we were to equate it to ARMS, she basically has the best qualities of both Min Min and Springman (aside from being the creator's pet, that position goes to Aya).
I mean, she also lost out to Youmu this year too. Still, consistently ranking among the top three is nothing to scoff at.
 

Sc_Ev0lution

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 22, 2016
Messages
186
I kinda figured this would be the reaction. And, I mean, yeah it's kinda a no brainer. Reimu's the only character, playable or otherwise, with a perfect attendance record in the games; she's consistently the most popular character; pretty clearly the main face of Touhou as a whole; has a silhouette/concept arguably more unique in Smash; and seems to have ZUN's support. She's probably the right choice for Smash.

She's just not my choice. And I know, everyone would choose their favorite if they could. Personal bias aside, I think I can argue fairly well Marisa should be Touhou's second fighter, if not its first. Marisa is firmly entrenched as Touhou's deuteragonist, boasting easily the second best attendance record in game, and in the printworks is consistently seen alongside Reimu (although she has a bad habit of acting as Reimu's sidekick/jobber); she usually places second in the popularity polls still salty about that 4th place; despite her concept as an "ordinary magician" between her personality and signature attacks she's able to stand out in Smash and is an icon of Touhou; uh, and she appears more frequently as the application icon for mainline games, that totally counts for point.

Look, when I started participating actively in speculation two years ago, I accepted that if Touhou was going to get into Smash at all Reimu was gonna be the one. So as a Marisa fan, I'll take what I can get. If Min Min's inclusion means that within the likelihood of Touhou characters specifically Marisa's chances went from .1% to 1%, that's fine by me.
 
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