Shrine Maiden of Paradise ~ Reimu Hakurei (Touhou Project)

[Sc_Ev0lution]

I fall somewhere in the middle of the music debate. Among Windows-era osts, I think TD's was probably the most hit-or-miss. At least personally, it's my least favorite overall, though it definitely has standouts. It didn't help that game's release coincided with a sharp decline in Touhou's popularity, caused in part by the rise of mobile gacha's like KanColle. The combination of these two factors imo helped to solidify a divide in community perception of "new" and "old" Touhou roughly between UFO and TD.

And I will say that many of my most favorite tracks come from 6-12. In particular, IN is by far the best ost overall in my mind, with PCB, MoF, and SA not far behind.

BUT, that's not to say that I think post-TD is full of stinkers. Though I might not be big on TD's ost overall, I thought DDC and HSiFS had great osts, and LoLK and WBaWC can stand proud alongside the heights of early Windows-era. Especially in LoLK's case, I'm surprised there's still debate on its greatness 5 years since it released.

If there's anything that can be said of Touhou osts, it's that even at their absolute weakest they're maybe middling. I don't think you could seriously call any track past probably PoDD anything less than competent.

Edit: I probably should have also mentioned that the tone of Touhou music has shifted overtime. While (at least as far as I understand it) ZUN's compositional motifs and techniques have remained consistent, what has changed is the choice of instrumentation: piano, strings, drums, and ZUNpets have stuck around, but overtime synths and guitars have been added, changing the color of Touhou music.

While these changes in instrumentation help give each game's score a overarching identity (e.g. PCB ZUNpet, IN piano, WBaWC guitar), they may also break from what think of as Touhou's musical identity.

 

[zriL]

I think this is less a "Old is superior than new" thing and more or less a case of the older games being more established and is where the fanbase truly took off between TH6-8.

I agree there is a bit of that. But if it was the only thing, there wouldn't be a sudden drop at TH12. At this point, it's been almost 10 years, TH12 should have become as popular TH11, but it didn't happen.

It seems I'm a bit alone here in this debate, but I also have to remind you that the peak of Touhou popularity was around TH11. You could say the fans are nostalgic of that era and that's why the music are more popular. But I prefer to believe the more simple reason, that it was just better at that time.

Also, some of you seem to have missed the point, I'll repeat myself, there are good tracks in the recent games. But that's not what I was counting, I counted the number of good tracks per game, that's where the difference lies. Indeed, every game is represented in the top 50, but that's the number of track per game that is greatly different. And that's exactly what I'm feeling, that the old games had more consistent quality, and that's what impressed me about Touhou in the first place, I had never seen that amount of consistency in any game. With the recent games, it's good but it's more like most games with a good soundtrack, there are a few great tracks and the rest is a bit forgetable.

 

[Sc_Ev0lution]

If EoSD was released today, I can guarantee you that most people wouldn't give two s***s about it.

Is EoSD's ost overrated? Maybe, sniff maybe. Is it excellent? Absolutely.

If EoSD were released today, probably wouldn't be held as highly as it is. Part of that is due to it's design, part of that is due to the environment it would find itself. The soundtrack wouldn't be one of those reasons.

While you can debate the objective merits of EoSD (or any piece of media for that matter) in a vacuum, you can't fairly assess its impact without taking into account its context. That's kinda far afield from the music debate tho.

TL;DR: EoSD ost gud

 

[PurpleXCompleX]

Yeah pretty much... Its got nothing to do with quality.
Its the game people are the most connected and famillar about, followed by PCB.

It doesnt help the fact that the fandom is pretty much centered all around EoSD ever since its release.
You got countless of doujin works of games, music, animations, memes, still be solely pushing for EoSD's cast and setting.
... and most people will never even look or care outside of it. This is especially bad because a huge amount of people barely even care about official releases actually, and only resort to fanworks like doujins (yeah especially only that kind).

It still saddens me, really. I'm just fed up with early-Windows era content from EoSD and PCB. Barely anything really feels fresh anymore in regards to fanwork and merchandise.
There is just so much to pull from outside of these that really deserves some more love.

 

[BernkastelWitch]

There's some people who actually thought Touhou ended after Imperishable Night, funnily enough. I know I ended up posting images of Sanae and Clownpiece on Twitter, someone asked "Who the cute Green-haired girl and American cladded girl" were. I told them they were from Touhou and they were legitimately shocked to realize Touhou is still going.

With something as long lasted as Touhou, there is usually a drop-off point for the more casual fans to get off. EOSD, PCB, and even IN were where Touhou got its footing as what it is today, after all. But it's still shocking to see some people not realize the series has continued to this day.

 

[Lyncario]

There's some people who actually thought Touhou ended after Imperishable Night, funnily enough. I know I ended up posting images of Sanae and Clownpiece on Twitter, someone asked "Who the cute Green-haired girl and American cladded girl" were. I told them they were from Touhou and they were legitimately shocked to realize Touhou is still going.

With something as long lasted as Touhou, there is usually a drop-off point for the more casual fans to get off. EOSD, PCB, and even IN were where Touhou got its footing as what it is today, after all. But it's still shocking to see some people not realize the series has continued to this day.

The funny thing is that ZUN planned to end the series with IN, but he kept going because of how popular it became.

 

[BernkastelWitch]

The funny thing is that ZUN planned to end the series with IN, but he kept going because of how popular it became.

Oh I knew of that. Funny how everyone didn't realize how popular these low budget Bullet Hells with quirky art and unique music would become, especially with all the stuff you see of it nowadays.

 

[zferolie]

Reimu is disscussed as a possible character for smash based on his own feelings of hype amd likelyhood. I think he dod well going into her completely blind

 

[BernkastelWitch]

Reimu is disscussed as a possible character for smash based on his own feelings of hype amd likelyhood. I think he dod well going into her completely blind

Even if the scores are low because of his personal opinion and him going blind, he is more fair than other people I've noticed towards Reimu. Usually they end up saying stuff like "Too niche for Smash" or "Impossible" without giving a reason why and go back to discussing Waluigi or Geno for the Umpteenth time in a row. Seems like he did as much research as he could which I am proud of. And he acknowledges that Touhou is a big deal in Japan and has a good following, which other people deny.

Like while I don't think Reimu is too likely for Smash, she's likelier than other characters people bring up for the game. Of course Sakurai constantly turns DLC discussion on its head every time so discussing who is truly likely is difficult.

 

[GolisoPower]

Even if the scores are low because of his personal opinion and him going blind, he is more fair than other people I've noticed towards Reimu. Usually they end up saying stuff like "Too niche for Smash" or "Impossible" without giving a reason why and go back to discussing Waluigi or Geno for the Umpteenth time in a row. Seems like he did as much research as he could which I am proud of. And he acknowledges that Touhou is a big deal in Japan and has a good following, which other people deny.

Like while I don't think Reimu is too likely for Smash, she's likelier than other characters people bring up for the game. Of course Sakurai constantly turns DLC discussion on its head every time so discussing who is truly likely is difficult.

I saw the video too, but honestly, on his point on Touhou:

Touhou is basically Japan's indie game equivalent to a franchise that's already in Smash: Dragon Quest. Both games are cultural titans in Japan, so Touhou getting in wouldn't exactly be out of place. "The realistic outlook is that the rest of the world doesn't know who these characters are." See, people thought the same for Dragon Quest and their characters, since DQ was a little bit of an obscure franchise in the west prior to Smash Bros, and we eventually got Hero. Additionally, Sakurai generally makes the game for Japanese audiences, and shoot-'em-up games were actually the genre that got Sakurai into game development in general. So naturally, Touhou is a two-birds-one-stone deal.

 

[zferolie]

I saw the video too, but honestly, on his point on Touhou:

Touhou is basically Japan's indie game equivalent to a franchise that's already in Smash: Dragon Quest. Both games are cultural titans in Japan, so Touhou getting in wouldn't exactly be out of place. "The realistic outlook is that the rest of the world doesn't know who these characters are." See, people thought the same for Dragon Quest and their characters, since DQ was a little bit of an obscure franchise in the west prior to Smash Bros, and we eventually got Hero. Additionally, Sakurai generally makes the game for Japanese audiences, and shoot-'em-up games were actually the genre that got Sakurai into game development in general. So naturally, Touhou is a two-birds-one-stone deal.

I have to say though DQ is a lot more well known outside of japan then TOuhou is, and this is even before smash. I think people greatly overstate how unknown DQ was. It wasn't FF big but still known to any rpg fan

 

[BernkastelWitch]

I saw the video too, but honestly, on his point on Touhou:

Touhou is basically Japan's indie game equivalent to a franchise that's already in Smash: Dragon Quest. Both games are cultural titans in Japan, so Touhou getting in wouldn't exactly be out of place. "The realistic outlook is that the rest of the world doesn't know who these characters are." See, people thought the same for Dragon Quest and their characters, since DQ was a little bit of an obscure franchise in the west prior to Smash Bros, and we eventually got Hero. Additionally, Sakurai generally makes the game for Japanese audiences, and shoot-'em-up games were actually the genre that got Sakurai into game development in general. So naturally, Touhou is a two-birds-one-stone deal.

A big advantage Touhou has over other potential Indie series is the fact it's been around since the 90's if you count the PC98 games. I honestly can't think of many doujin or indie series that have been around that long. I adore other Indie games like Undertale, Shovel Knight, Hollow Knight, etc etc but those popped in the 2010's. The second oldest Indie character in memory is Shantae who debuted in 2002 and she faded into obscurity until 2011.

Touhou though has always been semi-consistent which is pretty amazing for a series developed by one person. If I remember right, quite a few Devs in Japan also started with making Touhou fangames as a stepping stone into getting into the industry.

It's basically like Dragon Quest or to a smaller extent, Fatal Fury: Unless you are in the Shmup or Japanese/anime scene in the West, you likely never touched Touhou while the popularity is very prominent in a particular country, like with Japan. And like Dragon Quest or SNK, even if you never touched any of those games, you may have felt their presence even indirectly from other games influencing itself. It's not too big of a game changer like Dragon Quest did with JRPGs but even after being huge into Touhou, I am shocked at seeing what even references Touhou or who are Touhou fans. Toby Fox credited ZUN for inspiring to make his own games and other games like World of Warcraft, League of Legends, and Skullgirls reference Touhou in their own little ways. I even just learned Scott Pilgrim even referenced Touhou.

So even if people want to claim it's "Too obscure" or "too niche", those people don't know they probably played a game that had Touhou references or influences to them. So it is bigger than what people claim.

 

[Sc_Ev0lution]

Aside from Touhou, AFAIK most of the prominent doujin games from the late 90's/early 00's era were visual novels, so they didn't get much international traction outside of anime circles.

...oh and Cave Story.

 

[BernkastelWitch]

Aside from Touhou, AFAIK most of the prominent doujin games from the late 90's/early 00's era were visual novels, so they didn't get much international traction outside of anime circles.

...oh and Cave Story.

Cave Story is another good example and a lot of people have fond memories there. But Niantic is well..... Controversial. That's all I'll say. I like Cave Story but I am not sure how I'd feel if Quote got in due to how Niantic is.

 

[Sc_Ev0lution]

I will say, while there are legitimate, interesting comparisons to be drawn between DQ and 2hu, the most obvious difference is once of scale, as a consequence of the reach of a AAA corporation being greater than a solo dev's, not to mention a decade's headstart.

Not to say Touhou is insignificant, just that DQ is afforded more mainstream ventures with more established partners more quickly.

 

[perfectchaos83]

My thoughts on the liklihood of Reimu really haven't changed. Basically, if you think an indie rep is likely, then Reimu is likley. If you don't think an indie is likely than neither is Reimu. My own reasoning for that is basically legacy, either through character or series. This is why I never considered many other indies as likely to begin with.

I have to say though DQ is a lot more well known outside of japan then TOuhou is, and this is even before smash. I think people greatly overstate how unknown DQ was. It wasn't FF big but still known to any rpg fan

I can understand the comparison, tbh. I think Touhou's notability outside of Japan is grossly overstated as well. Definitely not to the same caliber as DQ was, mind you. It's all a matter of perspective, and DQ definitely suffered that in the Smash fanbase.

 

[VicAdward]

https://twitter.com/ReimuForSmash/status/1273637396253478913
Now there's a BGM slot template for use

 

[zferolie]

https://twitter.com/ReimuForSmash/status/1273637396253478913
Now there's a BGM slot template for use

whos that last girl in your sig?

 

[VicAdward]

whos that last girl in your sig?

Sonia from Puzzle & Dragons

but actually I feel that there will be at least a smartphone game rep in FP2
I just randomly picked her

 

[VicAdward]

Just tried to make a medley of TH1
like those megaman retro medley

 

[zferolie]

Sonia from Puzzle & Dragons

but actually I feel that there will be at least a smartphone game rep in FP2
I just randomly picked her

Well Puzzels and Dragons did have a Mario crossover game way back. I never played it but I got this figure when I was in japan.

https://myfigurecollection.net/item/287811

Hera-Ur, one of my favorite figures now due to how cool she looks.

Just tried to make a medley of TH1
like those megaman retro medley

A cool fanmade melody there!

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Source Gaming is about to drop the results. Hopefully Reimu scored high.

 

[Rikarte]

Just tried to make a medley of TH1
like those megaman retro medley

Very cool idea, would love to have one of those in Smash. Tbh I'd be happy with any PC-98 song even if it's just Bad Apple.

 

[gavtel]

Source Gaming is about to drop the results. Hopefully Reimu scored high.

11th place. We managed to beat Shantae (she was in 13th) and the other indies (unless you count Steve).

 

[Blankiturayman]

Source Gaming is about to drop the results. Hopefully Reimu scored high.

I was pretty surprised by Reimu's placing, she did really well!

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I'm surprised she scored that high and beat Shantae. This proves to the detractors that Reimu is really popular in Japan and is not a weepish obscure character.

 

[Rikarte]

Not surprised Reimu placed as high as she did considering all the support she's been getting since last year. Touhou fans rise up!

 

[GolisoPower]

Source Gaming is about to drop the results. Hopefully Reimu scored high.

I'm legitimately impressed by the jump from 50th to 11th that Reimu has managed to achieve. Just goes to show that Touhou's a sleeper here.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I'm legitimately impressed by the jump from 50th to 11th that Reimu has managed to achieve. Just goes to show that Touhou's a sleeper here.

I know. I literally think Reimu has a legitimate chance.

 

[nintenplayer]

REIMU4SMASH GANG RISE UP

I can't believe the idea of Reimu in Smash went from a niche wish to a mainstream request. Hopefully Reimu got out of the "literally who" category for many Smash fans. This is a big win.

Now let's actually get her in Smash!

 

[Lyncario]

Hell yeah to Reimu having the second hightest gain in rank and one of the hightest gain in votes.

 

[perfectchaos83]

Hell yeah to Reimu having the second hightest gain in rank and one of the hightest gain in votes.

Who had a higher gain?

 

[BernkastelWitch]

I don't know what's more shocking: Reimu going from barely making it in to the top 50 of last year to just barely missing the top ten or the fact she managed to beat some commonly discussed choices like Waluigi.

For someone people call "Obscure" or "Niche", she managed to beat quite a few known names on this list and I am glad her support is high up there.

 

[Lyncario]

Who had a higher gain?

In rank, Sol Badguy wins by a large margin, he gained like 90 places. In votes, a bunch of the hightest ranking characters also have around 500 more votes compared to last year like Reimu does, with Crash and Doomguy being in the 600 more votes range.

 

[BernkastelWitch]

In rank, Sol Badguy wins by a large margin, he gained like 90 places. In votes, a bunch of the hightest ranking characters also have around 500 more votes compared to last year like Reimu does, with Crash and Doomguy being in the 600 more votes range.

As both a Guilty Gear and Touhou fan, I am glad both of them got huge jumps. Reimus is more notable in the sense she got a higher position at least.

But I am glad both series are getting big acknowledgement here.

 

[Lyncario]

As both a Guilty Gear and Touhou fan, I am glad both of them got huge jumps. Reimus is more notable in the sense she got a higher position at least.

But I am glad both series are getting big acknowledgement here.

Same, it really feels good to have both of them being at noticably highter rank than last year.

 

[EarlTamm]

You know, I really wonder what served as the main trigger for the boosted Reimu Smash hype, especially with her just missing the top 10. With Sol, for example, there was the River City Ransom spirits appearing and giving hope for more ArkSys representation.

Whatever the case, really happy to see Reimu get such a boost!

 

[GolisoPower]

You know, I really wonder what served as the main trigger for the boosted Reimu Smash hype, especially with her just missing the top 10. With Sol, for example, there was the River City Ransom spirits appearing and giving hope for more ArkSys representation.

Whatever the case, really happy to see Reimu get such a boost!

I think it all started with that Doujin leak that still hasn't been proven fake yet.

 

[EarlTamm]

I think it all started with that Doujin leak that still hasn't been proven fake yet.

Probably. I know that's where I got my drive to support Reimu more. No matter which way that leak will go, it seemed to make more people consider Reimu's chances for Smash more and bring out more supporters.

 

[BernkastelWitch]

There's quite a few things I can think of why Reimu got huge support.

1. The Doujin leak, obviously. Even if it is fake, it still brought attention to Reimu and gave people the idea of "If this leak even makes it sound like a possibility, then I can support her."

2. Support from Twitter accounts like Reimu4Smash which did open peoples eyes that yes, Reimu is a possibility.

3. The Character cycle for Ultimate opening up to a bunch of new characters and this cycle has people more open to "Unorthodox" characters. Sure, you have your Waluigi's, Soras, Genos, etc etc who have been in Smash discussion since Brawl but now between some long lasting characters like Ridley, King K. Rool, Simon Belmont, and Banjo-Kazooie finally becoming playable, it opens room for other characters. Some characters like Doom Guy and KOS-MOS also got into the limelight due to either fake leaks or some of the bigger names making it into the game. Smash Ultimate is where people are realizing that the idea of Touhou content in Smash is not a fanfiction idea but rather a genuine possibility also helps.