Shrine Maiden of Paradise ~ Reimu Hakurei (Touhou Project)

zriL

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There's quite a few things I can think of why Reimu got huge support.

1. The Doujin leak, obviously. Even if it is fake, it still brought attention to Reimu and gave people the idea of "If this leak even makes it sound like a possibility, then I can support her."

2. Support from Twitter accounts like Reimu4Smash which did open peoples eyes that yes, Reimu is a possibility.

3. The Character cycle for Ultimate opening up to a bunch of new characters and this cycle has people more open to "Unorthodox" characters. Sure, you have your Waluigi's, Soras, Genos, etc etc who have been in Smash discussion since Brawl but now between some long lasting characters like Ridley, King K. Rool, Simon Belmont, and Banjo-Kazooie finally becoming playable, it opens room for other characters. Some characters like Doom Guy and KOS-MOS also got into the limelight due to either fake leaks or some of the bigger names making it into the game. Smash Ultimate is where people are realizing that the idea of Touhou content in Smash is not a fanfiction idea but rather a genuine possibility also helps.
I think none of these are the most important ones. KOS-MOS proves that a convincing leak is not enough to bring that much support. I do believe the twitter support is big, especially for this kind of polls, but support alone doesn't make a character that much more likely (look at Geno for example).

For me there's two main things that made me believe Reimu was likely :

1. ZUN declaring he wants Touhou in Smash. This is the biggest thing. Before that, I believed ZUN wouldn't even have accepted if Nintendo had asked him, so I didn't bother to support Reimu for Smash. I think Touhou has a lot of appeal for big companies because it actually has some mainstream appeal, it's non-violent and not sexualized (in canon), so it works well even for children. ZUN is kind of sitting on a gold mine and so far no big companies have been allowed to profit from it, so I think this move is the biggest step forward for Reimu in Smash.

2. Sans Mii-Costume. Undertale is basically Touhou's little brother, Undertale is heavily inspired by Touhou, they both appeal to the same public and Undertale hype in the west is only a portion of what Touhou hype was in Japan at its peak, and Touhou's hype haven't really died since then. If you consider that and the fact that the release of Sans Mii-Costume almost overshadowed the character release, it kind of means that there wouldn't have been a riot if Sans was the playable character. If Undertale can do that, Touhou can do better, not in the west but that's not really important in my opinion, because Japan is as important as the west for this things, if not more important.
 
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So I was thinking of what Mii costumes we could get tomorrow and began thinking of what Touhou ones we could get if Reimu ever showed up.

Although the only one I actually want is an Utsuho gunner.
Swordfighter Youmu is a shoe-in. We could probably get Flandre or Yukari as a swordfighter as well. Utsuho gunner is a no-brainer, Marisa'd fit that area as well.

Also, Clownpiece gunner. It's the only way to let her express the full extent of A M E R I C A, **** YEAH!
 

Lyncario

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So I was thinking of what Mii costumes we could get tomorrow and began thinking of what Touhou ones we could get if Reimu ever showed up.

Although the only one I actually want is an Utsuho gunner.
Sakuya is my favorite Touhou, so yeah, I would kinda want her as a mii swordfighter outfit a lot. I would also really like a Tenshi swordfighter. And a Reisen gunner feels pretty natural.
 

Neosonic97

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To give each Mii Fighter type at least one...

Swordfighter: There could be a couple. Youmu is the most obvious choice, but Flandre could be a Swordfighter, as could Momiji, Tenshi or if they really wanted to stretch into all aspects of Touhou, even Yorihime.

Gunner: Utsuho is a no-brainer, though it could feasibly be done with Marisa or Reisen as well.

Brawler: Meiling is the main one I can think of.
 
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VicAdward

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So I was thinking of what Mii costumes we could get tomorrow and began thinking of what Touhou ones we could get if Reimu ever showed up.

Although the only one I actually want is an Utsuho gunner.
No offend, but I don't think there will be any Mii costumes in the ARMS video, at least tomorrow

anyway,my thought
Fighter: Meling, Suika
Gunner: Marisa, Reisen, Nitori, Utsuho, Sumireko
Sworefighter: Youmu
 
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No offend, but I don't think there will be any Mii costumes in the ARMS video, at least tomorrow

anyway,my thought
Fighter: Meling, Suika
Gunner: Marisa, Reisen, Nitori, Utsuho, Sumireko
Sworefighter: Youmu
Well we got costumes. Lol

anyway, I like the Reisen and Suika ideas a lot.
 
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Tetrus

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So news of our shrine maiden reaching 11th in the Source Gaming poll has reached JP Twitter waters about a couple days ago. Speculation and discussion about the possibility of her being playable in the game began picking up a fair bit since then.

If anyone here's bored or curious enough and has Twitter, try and put in "霊夢 スマブラ" in the search bar and have fun scrolling through what they all have to say, sorted by "Latest". I don't recommend using Twitter's built-in translator for reading these though. Copy+paste their tweets into DeepL for a more readable experience if you're not familiar with the language.

The TL;DR of it all though is that their receptiveness to the idea of Reimu in Smash seems a lot more positive than before, based on various angles and reasons we've talked about here before.

I dunno, I just thought it was neat that the poll jumpstarted this kind of speculation overseas.
 
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So I haven't heard of this game before, but I guess its getting a free update with new stuff coming. Anyone Play Gensokyo Night Festival?

I haven't, but that artstyle looks awful familar.
and if its really THAT, not gonna mention THAT here. Really great pixel artist tho.
So news of our shrine maiden reaching 11th in the Source Gaming poll has reached JP Twitter waters about a couple days ago. Speculation and discussion about the possibility of her being playable in the game began picking up a fair bit since then.

If anyone here's bored or curious enough and has Twitter, try and put in "霊夢 スマブラ" in the search bar and have fun scrolling through what they all have to say, sorted by "Latest". I don't recommend using Twitter's built-in translator for reading these though. Copy+paste their tweets into DeepL for a more readable experience if you're not familiar with the language.

The TL;DR of it all though is that their receptiveness to the idea of Reimu in Smash seems a lot more positive than before, based on various angles and reasons we've talked about here before.

I dunno, I just thought it was neat that the poll jumpstarted this kind of speculation overseas.
does DeepL has a phone application yet?
been using it a few times and dear Lord, its phenominal.
 
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Sc_Ev0lution

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On the one hand, FP2 has been already decided so any additional support is kinda pointless. Not to mention if we are getting anything beyond that, be it another season or individual characters, rights negotiations and planning probably would've started by now, or at least may have if not for Corona.

On the other hand.... holy crap this is amazing! It's always great to see Reimu for Smash discussions trend up, but doubly so in Japan. IMO, if Reimu is going to be included because of her popularity and importance in Japan she should have a strong base, uh, in Japan. The more momentum she builds now, the more likely she is in the future.

While I find it kinda doubtful Nintendo keeps tabs on Source Gaming regularly, I'd hazard a guess the keep an eye on Smash speculation, so they're probably aware of this poll and the reaction to it, both on SB and elsewhere on the internet. Who can say what they'll do with the info, but if they keep seeing Reimu they're more likely to be interested in her.
 

zferolie

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I haven't, but that artstyle looks awful familar.
and if its really THAT, not gonna mention THAT here. Really great pixel artist tho.

does DeepL has a phone application yet?
been using it a few times and dear Lord, its phenominal.
Not sure what you mean, but you can dm it to me if it may be not for public forms
 

zriL

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Messages
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On the one hand, FP2 has been already decided so any additional support is kinda pointless. Not to mention if we are getting anything beyond that, be it another season or individual characters, rights negotiations and planning probably would've started by now, or at least may have if not for Corona.
It's never really been about influencing the DLC content. Fan polls probably never had much relevance in that anyways. Out of 6 DLC characters in Ultimate, only Banjo had huge support, the others were not popular at all in the smash community.

Sometimes, character reception is almost as important as being in the game. For example, very few people likes Corrin, because it was an obvious shill pick and the game release (after smash DLC) revealed that he was a quite bad character, the worst protagonist FE ever had. At this point, being Smash didn't really help Corrin popularity because all that Smash fans knows about Corrin is that he is from FE, is a bad character (from the FE fans), and a promotional pick.

So if Reimu were to get in Smash, the better reception she has, the better image she will give to Touhou. I think this is very important, especially for Touhou, since many people would discover Touhou through Smash. I have no doubt Sakurai would give her justice, but if Smash fans go on a riot over her inclusion (a bit like Byleth), it would hurt her image anyways.

It's very important to place well in these polls, especially a serious one like this one, because it shows Reimu doesn't come out of nowhere, even if many people don't know about her.
 
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It's never really been about influencing the DLC content. Fan polls probably never had much relevance in that anyways. Out of 6 DLC characters in Ultimate, only Banjo had huge support, the others were not popular at all in the smash community.

Sometimes, character reception is almost as important as being in the game. For example, very few people likes Corrin, because it was an obvious shill pick and the game release (after smash DLC) revealed that he was a quite bad character, the worst protagonist FE ever had. At this point, being Smash didn't really help Corrin popularity because all that Smash fans knows about Corrin is that he is from FE, is a bad character (from the FE fans), and a promotional pick.

So if Reimu were to get in Smash, the better reception she has, the better image she will give to Touhou. I think this is very important, especially for Touhou, since many people would discover Touhou through Smash. I have no doubt Sakurai would give her justice, but if Smash fans go on a riot over her inclusion (a bit like Byleth), it would hurt her image anyways.

It's very important to place well in these polls, especially a serious one like this one, because it shows Reimu doesn't come out of nowhere, even if many people don't know about her.
There's also the fact that a unique moveset and lots of passion on the dev's behalf can turn opinion around, like with Terry. One of the main criticisms directed at Byleth, beyond the obvious FE/anime swordfighter complaints, was their lack of real unique aspects. Reimu has the potential for a highly mobile, aerial fighter with stuff like flight, grazing, air dashes, undersized hitbox, etc. that could make a good first impression for detractors and those of neutral opinion.
 
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There's also the fact that a unique moveset and lots of passion on the dev's behalf can turn opinion around, like with Terry. One of the main criticisms directed at Byleth, beyond the obvious FE/anime swordfighter complaints, was their lack of real unique aspects. Reimu has the potential for a highly mobile, aerial fighter with stuff like flight, grazing, air dashes, undersized hitbox, etc. that could make a good first impression for detractors and those of neutral opinion.
That same line of thinking was what, to my knowledge, turned Incineroar around for a lot of people. A stackable counter that buffs the next attack you land, taunting after every attack he lands, his absolute GUSTO, everything about Incineroar just about charmed everyone!
 

zriL

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There's also the fact that a unique moveset and lots of passion on the dev's behalf can turn opinion around, like with Terry. One of the main criticisms directed at Byleth, beyond the obvious FE/anime swordfighter complaints, was their lack of real unique aspects. Reimu has the potential for a highly mobile, aerial fighter with stuff like flight, grazing, air dashes, undersized hitbox, etc. that could make a good first impression for detractors and those of neutral opinion.
Yep, this is also why Min Min has got a pretty good reception so far.
 
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That same line of thinking was what, to my knowledge, turned Incineroar around for a lot of people. A stackable counter that buffs the next attack you land, taunting after every attack he lands, his absolute GUSTO, everything about Incineroar just about charmed everyone!
And it's why anyone even remembers Captain Falcon. He wouldn'tve gotten where he is now without the FALCON P A N C H
 

Troykv

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It's never really been about influencing the DLC content. Fan polls probably never had much relevance in that anyways. Out of 6 DLC characters in Ultimate, only Banjo had huge support, the others were not popular at all in the smash community.

Sometimes, character reception is almost as important as being in the game. For example, very few people likes Corrin, because it was an obvious shill pick and the game release (after smash DLC) revealed that he was a quite bad character, the worst protagonist FE ever had. At this point, being Smash didn't really help Corrin popularity because all that Smash fans knows about Corrin is that he is from FE, is a bad character (from the FE fans), and a promotional pick.

So if Reimu were to get in Smash, the better reception she has, the better image she will give to Touhou. I think this is very important, especially for Touhou, since many people would discover Touhou through Smash. I have no doubt Sakurai would give her justice, but if Smash fans go on a riot over her inclusion (a bit like Byleth), it would hurt her image anyways.

It's very important to place well in these polls, especially a serious one like this one, because it shows Reimu doesn't come out of nowhere, even if many people don't know about her.
Corrin is the only character I outright refuse to use, if I get him/her in randoms, I literally prefer to quit unless I'm fighting with other people IRL, where I just spam F-Tilt until I die.

Seeing Corrin in the screen kind of makes me feel sick.

____

So yeah, I think it's without a doubt a good idea that Reimu gets a better rep in the speculation, just in case; I mean, that is how Ridley and K. Rool managed to be pretty loved outside of people making fun of their size.

There's also the fact that a unique moveset and lots of passion on the dev's behalf can turn opinion around, like with Terry. One of the main criticisms directed at Byleth, beyond the obvious FE/anime swordfighter complaints, was their lack of real unique aspects. Reimu has the potential for a highly mobile, aerial fighter with stuff like flight, grazing, air dashes, undersized hitbox, etc. that could make a good first impression for detractors and those of neutral opinion.
That same line of thinking was what, to my knowledge, turned Incineroar around for a lot of people. A stackable counter that buffs the next attack you land, taunting after every attack he lands, his absolute GUSTO, everything about Incineroar just about charmed everyone!
Yup also very true.

ARE YOU OKAY!?
 
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Corrin is the only character I outright refuse to use, if I get him/her in randoms, I literally prefer to quit unless I'm fighting with other people IRL, where I just spam F-Tilt until I die.

Seeing Corrin in the screen kind of makes me feel sick.

____

So yeah, I think it's without a doubt a good idea that Reimu gets a better rep in the speculation, just in case; I mean, that is how Ridley and K. Rool managed to be pretty loved outside of people making fun of their size.





Yup also very true.

ARE YOU OKAY!?
To be fair, Corrin was another Fire Emblem character, and hadn't even reached Western shores until then. Reimu would be the first Touhou rep, and has been around long enough for the West to at least know who she is.
 

Ayumi Tachibana

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Bamco is now forming an alliance with Phoenixx.
Interesting to say the least.


Press release in english.
https://www.bandainamcoent.co.jp/pdfs/HP_No66-007_Business Alliance with Phoenixx Inc.Creating New Businesses with Indie Game Creators.pdf
 
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7NATOR

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Bamco is now forming an alliance with Phoenixx.
Interesting to say the least.


Press release in english.
https://www.bandainamcoent.co.jp/pdfs/HP_No66-007_Business Alliance with Phoenixx Inc.Creating New Businesses with Indie Game Creators.pdf
so what does this mean? does this mean Namco is gonna have it's own Indie Sub-Section?
 
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I don't really understand how these "indie organizations" work. Doesn't it make the games not indie anymore ?
Companies like UNTIES and Phoenixx, ... they are essentially publishers.
They support indie and doujin developers in both Japan and Overseas in development, porting, marketing and publishing in both Japan and elsewhere.

You really shouldnt think too much about "Indie Status" or not. I see that way too much in the Smash community. It doesnt matter whether or not a company makes something, a tiny group or a individual. What matters are the games and characters themself.
 
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Companies like UNTIES and Phoenixx, ... they are essentially publishers.
They support indie and doujin developers in both Japan and Overseas in development, porting, marketing and publishing in both Japan and elsewhere.

You really shouldnt think too much about "Indie Status" or not. I see that way too much in the Smash community. It doesnt matter whether or not a company makes something, a tiny group or a individual. What matters are the games and characters themself.
The way I see it, it's an indie if the indie company owns it, with or without a big publisher. If it gets big enough and/or gets purchased by a big publisher, like Minecraft... I'm not quite sure where it would sit. I don't think there's a set-in-stone hard definition for indie games, so it's kinda hard to tell.
 
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Out of curiosity, what did the doujin leak call for, and how well does it hold up now? I remember hearing that ZUN was trying to push the series and that Reimu would've been the starter had it not been for COVID, but that's all I remember. Was there anything else?
(Also, does this count as doubleposting? It's been a few hours, but...)
 
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Sc_Ev0lution

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186
There's some pretty in depth breakdowns further back, but I understand it's annoying to dig through old posts. Ayumi could probably give the best summary, but I can give it a shot.

IIRC, back around April 2019, a guy on a Japanese forum/board claimed AoCF would be ported to PS4 and Switch, and that Reimu would be included in Smash. Now this wasn't the first rumor claiming Reimu, but there was reason to believe this person was privy to inside info. For one, shortly after this post Tasfro confirmed AoCF was coming to PS4 and that they were considering porting the game to Switch. Additionally, there's evidence to suggest this poster also leaked pages from WaHH early (though my memory is more hazy on that count).

After this, there was a long period of silence. At some point during late summer/early fall there was another post suggesting Reimu would come with Yukari as an Arsene-like assist plus a Sanae+Kanako echo, but this was just the poster's own "fantasy;" this guy has a habit of mixing speculation with rumor. I'm pretty sure this was the same post that put the "doujin" in doujin leak/rumor (though it may have been the original) because it was stated that music from doujin circles would come with Reimu and that her inclusion was something of an "open secret" among circles.

Then is late September-ish an interview with ZUN was released where he said unprompted that he would like to see Reimu in smash, although he doesn't think it was likely. What's interesting is that the interview was recorded back in April, which as best we can tell, is before FP2 was finalized. But it's also around when the first post was made, so if the poster really is in the know for Touhou then they may have had early access to that interview.

Since then, there have been minor posts likely from the same person assuring people that Reimu's on the way, but nothing substantial. The "delayed by Covid" was the last post and that was several months ago.

---

Here are my thoughts on the doujin rumor: as it stands, taking the 1st post at face value it's probably fake. If we were supposed to take it that Reimu was in development at the time it was initially posted, then too much time has passed. I'm sorry but Covid delay or not, I don't believe it would take 18 months to develop Reimu, no matter how complex the concept. In that time span she should have been in FP1.

Frankly, it's pretty easy to make a fake leak with text because there really isn't any way to corroborate it, especially if the rumor itself is pretty vague. On top of that, all leaks and rumors have a shelf life, and after more than a year chances are it's gone sour. I've said for a while the doujin rumor gets more unlikely with every passing day, and at this point I think the matter's settled.

One explanation is that the poster was lying intentionally to troll or drum up speculation (this is known to have happened in unrelated instances, looking at you JSON "leak"), and subsequent post ("fantasy" aside) are attempts to save face or keep the lie going. While probable, this reason is boring and kinda contradictory considering the follow-ups. I think it's possible this person earnestly believed Reimu was on the way. To that end, I've had two ideas that aren't mutually exclusive: it's possible that he did have early access to the ZUN interview but misconstrued ZUN saying he wanted Reimu in smash to men she was in smash; alternatively, Reimu being in smash may have been an inside joke among doujn circles (e.g. "Do you think Reimu's coming to smash?" "Oh definitely, I just got done recording the song that's gonna be in her trailer LOL") that the poster heard out of context and assumed was serious.

Now, what does this mean? Really, all this means is that one rumor saying that Reimu is in Smash is most likely bogus. Ultimately, it has no bearing on whether or not she actually makes it in. The only impact it can have is Reimu's perception among speculators, that's it. I'd say in that regard it's been a net good, because aside from people angry about bandwagoners (which, trust me, I understand) her visibility has shot up dramatically, among both Smash fans and Touhou fans.
 
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There's some pretty in depth breakdowns further back, but I understand it's annoying to dig through old posts. Ayumi could probably give the best summary, but I can give it a shot.

IIRC, back around April 2019, a guy on a Japanese forum/board claimed AoCF would be ported to PS4 and Switch, and that Reimu would be included in Smash. Now this wasn't the first rumor claiming Reimu, but there was reason to believe this person was privy to inside info. For one, shortly after this post Tasfro confirmed AoCF was coming to PS4 and that they were considering porting the game to Switch. Additionally, there's evidence to suggest this poster also leaked pages from WaHH early (though my memory is more hazy on that count).

After this, there was a long period of silence. At some point during late summer/early fall there was another post suggesting Reimu would come with Yukari as an Arsene-like assist plus a Sanae+Kanako echo, but this was just the poster's own "fantasy;" this guy has a habit of mixing speculation with rumor. I'm pretty sure this was the same post that put the "doujin" in doujin leak/rumor (though it may have been the original) because it was stated that music from doujin circles would come with Reimu and that her inclusion was something of an "open secret" among circles.

Then is late September-ish an interview with ZUN was released where he said unprompted that he would like to see Reimu in smash, although he doesn't think it was likely. What's interesting is that the interview was recorded back in April, which as best we can tell, is before FP2 was finalized. But it's also around when the first post was made, so if the poster really is in the know for Touhou then they may have had early access to that interview.

Since then, there have been minor posts likely from the same person assuring people that Reimu's on the way, but nothing substantial. The "delayed by Covid" was the last post and that was several months ago.

---

Here are my thoughts on the doujin rumor: as it stands, taking the 1st post at face value it's probably fake. If we were supposed to take it that Reimu was in development at the time it was initially posted, then too much time has passed. I'm sorry but Covid delay or not, I don't believe it would take 18 months to develop Reimu, no matter how complex the concept. In that time span she should have been in FP1.

Frankly, it's pretty easy to make a fake leak with text because there really isn't any way to corroborate it, especially if the rumor itself is pretty vague. On top of that, all leaks and rumors have a shelf life, and after more than a year chances are it's gone sour. I've said for a while the doujin rumor gets more unlikely with every passing day, and at this point I think the matter's settled.

One explanation is that the poster was lying intentionally to troll or drum up speculation (this is known to have happened in unrelated instances, looking at you JSON "leak"), and subsequent post ("fantasy" aside) are attempts to save face or keep the lie going. While probable, this reason is boring and kinda contradictory considering the follow-ups. I think it's possible this person earnestly believed Reimu was on the way. To that end, I've had two ideas that aren't mutually exclusive: it's possible that he did have early access to the ZUN interview but misconstrued ZUN saying he wanted Reimu in smash to men she was in smash; alternatively, Reimu being in smash may have been an inside joke among doujn circles (e.g. "Do you think Reimu's coming to smash?" "Oh definitely, I just got done recording the song that's gonna be in her trailer LOL") that the poster heard out of context and assumed was serious.

Now, what does this mean? Really, all this means is that one rumor saying that Reimu is in Smash is most likely bogus. Ultimately, it has no bearing on whether or not she actually makes it in. The only impact it can have is Reimu's perception among speculators, that's it. I'd say in that regard it's been a net good, because aside from people angry about bandwagoners (which, trust me, I understand) her visibility has shot up dramatically, among both Smash fans and Touhou fans.
Ah, so that's what it was all about. Guess FP7 will put this all to rest, unless they were accidentally correct about it. All those explanations make sense, too. Also, the WBaFF leaks... It's Grinch leak all over again, isn't it?
 

Oborochi

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Oh whoops, you said WAHH, and I misread it. My bad.
What I meant to say was, the leaker had extra material to try and back up his claims, and it sounded like the Grinch Leak again.
You should be able to use this link right here to learn about the doujin leak and more. I do not remeber who made this but props to them for creating it in the first place. https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/167sqKPkODtNysnUDsQK9XSM7Uof3watSJjyk_8AXuwo/edit#slide=id.p

Edit: I belive the creator for the slide is CommanderZaktan.
 
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