Shrine Maiden of Paradise ~ Reimu Hakurei (Touhou Project)

[perfectchaos83]

Reimu leak finally killed? Oh boi time to go cry on a corner until post-pass chars starts releasing

For real, I still see a lot of possibilities for Reimu in Smash, i hope she comes as post-pass

No. The doujin leak lives. Only thing that happened is she's not FP5.

 

[Wrathful_Scythe]

While it makes sense with AoCF as context, it would be weird for that to be a Touhou character's gimmick; perhaps it should be one of a few? On top of that, smash has always found it hard to balance transforming characters: too often, one is clearly better/best. Their removal from 4 may have been motivate by technical limitations, but that allowed Sakurai to make Zelda, Sheik, Samus, and ZSS more well rounded characters without extra weaknesses to encourage switching. Pokemon Trainer's return barely works in this regard, as it took major overhaul to the switching mechanic as a whole, and frankly is ingrained more deeply into the character to where it needed to work. And even then, people still argue that some of the pokemon are better than others. What I'm getting at is I believe Sakurai is predisposed to be wary of transforming characters for balance reasons, on top of the development strain of developing a two-in-one fighter on a dlc staff.

IMO, to make transforming an appealing enough mechanic you have to go beyond giving each character compatible strengths (itself a questionable balancing method) but also give switching itself some benefit. Making it essentially another airdodge is a start, but maybe you'd take a page from AoCF and give it healing properties as well.

Not sure if balance was ever a main factor in Smash, seeing how melee was an accident (and still severly unbalanced) and brawl threw balance out the window. Can't talk about Sm4sh, as I've had no contact with that game whatsoever. But Sakurai never had intented to make his games with a competitive mindset and set his focus on casual fun, which doesn't contradict the implementation of another transformation.

On that matter, PT is imo a pretty balanced character, both in casual and competitive, as all the Pokemon have its uses. Never seen a player only use one pokemon. Sure, a Reimu/Marisa combo would work differently, as both are in a similar weightclass and mainly use projectiles but I don't see why a transformation shouldn't work. Imo, it doesn't even need some groundbreaking gimmick. Marisa and Reimu are just two different characters that could end up with two different styles of play. Marisa with direct projectiles while Reimu plays more like a trapper of sorts. If all people end up only playing one of the two, then the balance team has screwed up.

But yes, the main argument against a duo is that developing two characters is hard and developers are incentivised to spend as little effort as possible. My argument began from me wanting Marisa as a playable in the first place. Its either as a partner or not at all, so its a case of personal bias.

 

[BlackInk]

Not sure if balance was ever a main factor in Smash, seeing how melee was an accident (and still severly unbalanced) and brawl threw balance out the window. Can't talk about Sm4sh, as I've had no contact with that game whatsoever. But Sakurai never had intented to make his games with a competitive mindset and set his focus on casual fun, which doesn't contradict the implementation of another transformation.

On that matter, PT is imo a pretty balanced character, both in casual and competitive, as all the Pokemon have its uses. Never seen a player only use one pokemon. Sure, a Reimu/Marisa combo would work differently, as both are in a similar weightclass and mainly use projectiles but I don't see why a transformation shouldn't work. Imo, it doesn't even need some groundbreaking gimmick. Marisa and Reimu are just two different characters that could end up with two different styles of play. Marisa with direct projectiles while Reimu plays more like a trapper of sorts. If all people end up only playing one of the two, then the balance team has screwed up.

But yes, the main argument against a duo is that developing two characters is hard and developers are incentivised to spend as little effort as possible. My argument began from me wanting Marisa as a playable in the first place. Its either as a partner or not at all, so its a case of personal bias.

Melee is so imbalanced, over several different solo characters are at top 10s in tourneys...

 

[Lasatar]

I'd like to point out that despite them being the two main characters of the series and being very close friends in canon, Reimu and Marisa have almost never actually teamed up before. In fact, Reimu even comments on this in the victory dialogue of AoCF if you use both of them in a VS Match. Rather, Reimu tends to pair up with characters like Yukari and Kasen, who I highly doubt would make a playables appearances in Smash as part of a tag team with Reimu, as cool as that would be.

So really, the best we could hope for is just Reimu by herself. I wouldn't object to a Reimu/Marisa tag team, but I highly doubt Sakurai would do something like that without having a good reason to. Heck, Zelda/Sheik and the two Samuses were separated from each other in Smash 4, and Pokémon Trainer only exists in Ultimate because of Everyone is Here. It's clear that they're trying to stray away from that kind of character, so the idea of a tag team character as DLC is really far fetched.

Besides, wouldn't you want Marisa to become her own individual character once Smash 6 rolls around?

 

[Lyncario]

I'd like to point out that despite them being the two main characters of the series and being very close friends in canon, Reimu and Marisa have almost never actually teamed up before. In fact, Reimu even comments on this in the victory dialogue of AoCF if you use both of them in a VS Match. Rather, Reimu tends to pair up with characters like Yukari and Kasen, who I highly doubt would make a playables appearances in Smash as part of a tag team with Reimu, as cool as that would be.

So really, the best we could hope for is just Reimu by herself. I wouldn't object to a Reimu/Marisa tag team, but I highly doubt Sakurai would do something like that without having a good reason to. Heck, Zelda/Sheik and the two Samuses were separated from each other in Smash 4, and Pokémon Trainer only exists in Ultimate because of Everyone is Here. It's clear that they're trying to stray away from that kind of character, so the idea of a tag team character as DLC is really far fetched.

Besides, wouldn't you want Marisa to become her own individual character once Smash 6 rolls around?

If I remember well, Reimu and Marisa only teamed up in LLS, MS, PCB(with Sakuya tagging along), HSiFS, and the manga, so while it's not that often, it does happen sometimes.

I want to believe, but some things are too good to be believable.

 

[Lasatar]

If I remember well, Reimu and Marisa only teamed up in LLS, MS, PCB(with Sakuya tagging along), HSiFS, and the manga, so while it's not that often, it does happen sometimes.

I want to believe, but some things are too good to be believable.

You're remembering wrong. In games where both of them are playable, they either act independently or only one of their routes is canon. They literally fought each other in LLS (how the hell is that a teamup?), and in the other games you mentioned neither of them appeared in the other's routes.

As for the manga, I don't remember too many actual fight scenes from them, and while I haven't quite read all of WaHH, the closest I remember to a teamup in any of the mangas was them both being in Remilia's Moon Invasion party confronting Yorihime, and even then, they all took turns fighting her. They may have teamed up at the end of VFiS, but the fairies got Okina to do some stuff before things got nasty with Hecatia or the Vengeful Spirits.

EDIT: I forgot Chapter 3 of FS where they teamed up to exterminate Enenra, but that was really such a minor thing in the long run.

 

[KarneraMythos]

I would much rather they play as separate characters than together. That would be like relegating Zelda to the background assisting Link, shooting light arrows and occasionally jumping in the fray while he uses Medallions 'n ****. That sort of gimmick would work better in a Vs. Capcom style game, where the mechanics both characters employ are actually a result of running a tag team of Link and Zelda that were selected at the character screen.

Otherwise, it'd take away from the value of playing them on their lonesome. Ergo, Reimu and Marisa should occupy their own individual slots. Stapling them together is just wasted potential on both characters. We didn't do that sort of thing with Ryu and Ken back then, so we don't need to do that for Reimu and Marisa now either.

 

[Wrathful_Scythe]

I'd like to point out that despite them being the two main characters of the series and being very close friends in canon, Reimu and Marisa have almost never actually teamed up before. In fact, Reimu even comments on this in the victory dialogue of AoCF if you use both of them in a VS Match. Rather, Reimu tends to pair up with characters like Yukari and Kasen, who I highly doubt would make a playables appearances in Smash as part of a tag team with Reimu, as cool as that would be.

So really, the best we could hope for is just Reimu by herself. I wouldn't object to a Reimu/Marisa tag team, but I highly doubt Sakurai would do something like that without having a good reason to. Heck, Zelda/Sheik and the two Samuses were separated from each other in Smash 4, and Pokémon Trainer only exists in Ultimate because of Everyone is Here. It's clear that they're trying to stray away from that kind of character, so the idea of a tag team character as DLC is really far fetched.

Besides, wouldn't you want Marisa to become her own individual character once Smash 6 rolls around?

Well, both of them are of rivals when it comes to dealing with incidents so it doesn't make sense for them to team up. They have however fought together in AoCF in the stories of other characters. Unrelated to the incident but they were cooperating.

I would much rather they play as separate characters than together. That would be like relegating Zelda to the background assisting Link, shooting light arrows and occasionally jumping in the fray while he uses Medallions 'n ****. That sort of gimmick would work better in a Vs. Capcom style game, where the mechanics both characters employ are actually a result of running a tag team of Link and Zelda that were selected at the character screen.

Otherwise, it'd take away from the value of playing them on their lonesome. Ergo, Reimu and Marisa should occupy their own individual slots. Stapling them together is just wasted potential on both characters. We didn't do that sort of thing with Ryu and Ken back then, so we don't need to do that for Reimu and Marisa now either.

How did you come to the conclusion that Marisa would be just an assist attack? The discussion is about Reimu and Marisa switching mid battle, each as their own fighter. Basically PT.

I guess I have to excuse myself for bringing that stupid idea up in the first place. I was just making an argument to somehow implement Marisa because she'll most likely never get into smash as a playable.

 

[BlackInk]

I would much rather they play as separate characters than together. That would be like relegating Zelda to the background assisting Link, shooting light arrows and occasionally jumping in the fray while he uses Medallions 'n ****. That sort of gimmick would work better in a Vs. Capcom style game, where the mechanics both characters employ are actually a result of running a tag team of Link and Zelda that were selected at the character screen.

Otherwise, it'd take away from the value of playing them on their lonesome. Ergo, Reimu and Marisa should occupy their own individual slots. Stapling them together is just wasted potential on both characters. We didn't do that sort of thing with Ryu and Ken back then, so we don't need to do that for Reimu and Marisa now either.

You actually came up with a way to make Link and Zelda actually pretty unique and viable...

 

[KarneraMythos]

How did you come to the conclusion that Marisa would be just an assist attack? The discussion is about Reimu and Marisa switching mid battle, each as their own fighter. Basically PT.

I guess I have to excuse myself for bringing that stupid idea up in the first place. I was just making an argument to somehow implement Marisa because she'll most likely never get into smash as a playable.

No no, you misunderstood what I meant by the "assist" descriptions. What I meant was that, in a hypothetical scenario, having them occupy the same slot would be like relegating Link and Zelda to a character swap move-set where they both have unique actions depending on whoever is "benched" to justify a scenario where the Dividual character can exist. If Reimu and Marisa filled those shoes (or something similar), it would still introduce the problem of them sharing the same slot regardless. I am in the camp that Marisa is well enough on her own and it's preferable that way. Who knows? If we end up getting Reimu post-pass after all, that could potentially open up something for Marisa in Smash's future.

 

[Lyncario]

You're remembering wrong. In games where both of them are playable, they either act independently or only one of their routes is canon. They literally fought each other in LLS (how the hell is that a teamup?), and in the other games you mentioned neither of them appeared in the other's routes.

As for the manga, I don't remember too many actual fight scenes from them, and while I haven't quite read all of WaHH, the closest I remember to a teamup in any of the mangas was them both being in Remilia's Moon Invasion party confronting Yorihime, and even then, they all took turns fighting her. They may have teamed up at the end of VFiS, but the fairies got Okina to do some stuff before things got nasty with Hecatia or the Vengeful Spirits.

EDIT: I forgot Chapter 3 of FS where they teamed up to exterminate Enenra, but that was really such a minor thing in the long run.

I think that the teamup is mentioned in the manual for LLS, while the for the other games, reference to multiple routes are made(it's canon that Reimu fought Shinki, but it's also canon that Mima defeated Alice in the extra stage, and in a printwork, it was canonised that all routes for PCB were canon, for HSiFS, I think they all fought Okina, but I could be wrong or misinterpreting).

 

[Lasatar]

I think that the teamup is mentioned in the manual for LLS, while the for the other games, reference to multiple routes are made(it's canon that Reimu fought Shinki, but it's also canon that Mima defeated Alice in the extra stage, and in a printwork, it was canonised that all routes for PCB were canon, for HSiFS, I think they all fought Okina, but I could be wrong or misinterpreting).

In HSiFS, all routes are canon, but it was never stated that all of those routes had to take place at the same time. It wasn't a really a proper incident, and also wasn't actually resolved until the Extra Stage, meaning that they could have easily gone through the same events at different times and all met with Okina separately.

Anyway, I'm going to stop arguing about this. My point was that Reimu and Marisa wouldn't be a duo character in Smash, and not that fighting together is some kind of weird alien concept to them. It's just simply very rare that it actually happens.

 

[Wrathful_Scythe]

No no, you misunderstood what I meant by the "assist" descriptions. What I meant was that, in a hypothetical scenario, having them occupy the same slot would be like relegating Link and Zelda to a character swap move-set where they both have unique actions depending on whoever is "benched" to justify a scenario where the Dividual character can exist. If Reimu and Marisa filled those shoes (or something similar), it would still introduce the problem of them sharing the same slot regardless. I am in the camp that Marisa is well enough on her own and it's preferable that way. Who knows? If we end up getting Reimu post-pass after all, that could potentially open up something for Marisa in Smash's future.

Ah, alright. I was under the impression that Marisa would be lowered to a side-b or something. Blasphemous, truly. Excuse me.

Marisa as her own character would be perfect in my book. I'd prefer her to Reimu, even.
I just don't see her inclusion happening. Ever.

I think that the teamup is mentioned in the manual for LLS, while the for the other games, reference to multiple routes are made(it's canon that Reimu fought Shinki, but it's also canon that Mima defeated Alice in the extra stage, and in a printwork, it was canonised that all routes for PCB were canon, for HSiFS, I think they all fought Okina, but I could be wrong or misinterpreting).

The problem, regarding how the incidents are solved, is that ZUN made it obscure and vague. Its never actually stated who canonically defeated the big bad boss, only hinted at at places but also not confirmed. Its a paradox, where every good ending is true but every good ending only sees one of the playables being victorious (even multiple times with different shot types). Most likely intentional to have the player make their own choice who acutally did it in the end.

They all teamed up in a broad sense, fighting a common enemy but didn't fight side by side intentionally.

 

[TheTuninator]

The "Marisa & Reimu couldn't be a tag because they don't work together in the games" argument doesn't quite hold up, imo. If the justification for the tag mechanic would be AoCF, any character can work with any character in that game. That's all the justification that's needed. Plus, as observed they do pair in the story mode at one point, even though it's not while they're the protagonists of the route.

I'd also call attention to this bit from the Touhou Cannonball OP:


It's not canon, of course, but I don't think anybody looked at this and went "hold up, this doesn't feel right", right? Same with when they work together in Memories of Phantasm. Even if they're often rivals in solving an incident as part of their friendly competition, their status as co-protagonists and their consistent portrayal as such close friends in all of the official print works means that seeing them team up for any reason has always felt more than fine to me.

 

[Blankiturayman]

Just catched up to the thread, and well, about the current discussion, I think I'd like it better if Reimu was on her own as a fighter, that's how she goes about it in most games, anyway. That being said, Marisa would be great. If Reimu does come and Touhou gets a second rep, Marisa would definitely be it, imagine she gets Master Spark as a neutral B and you get to spam it all around lol. But that's wishful thinking, I suppose.

 

[CureParfait]

Given the current mishaps that Verge did I am somewhat skeptical of Reimu's deconfirmation.

 

[cwbaaa]

Eh... deconfirmed or not, Reimu’s chances weren’t very impressive to begin with. There’s still a ton of characters it could be.

 

[Blankiturayman]

She's probably more likely for post-pass, but that's fine. What's been nice to see is that her and Touhou are being actually mentioned nowadays, I didn't expect that to happen

 

[cwbaaa]

There’s more discussion about Touhou in the Smash community but there’s also more hate towards it as well. But I guess that comes with the territory.

 

[KarneraMythos]

There’s more discussion about Touhou in the Smash community but there’s also more hate towards it as well. But I guess that comes with the territory.

I have a feeling both this thread and Kosy's are gonna face a wave of sore-winners should either character fail to make it as the fifth fighter, or at any point in Ultimate really. Most of the hate comes from the double-standard of being obnoxiously loud about a character you hear about a thousand times, but the moment someone has a Most-Wanted that deviates from the usual discussions, they get bullied to hell and back. My biggest fear is seeing the DLC being handled in such a way that only one group-of-interest gets absolutely everything they want while the other group faces repeated disappointment.

 

[Rikarte]

There’s more discussion about Touhou in the Smash community but there’s also more hate towards it as well. But I guess that comes with the territory.

Gotta be honest, I'm surprised by how well received the thought of Reimu getting in has been by the Smash community. Sure, you have the usual suspects claiming she's not deservant enough and people only want her in because they're horny... but outside of those, people seem to be genuinely open minded about her inclusion which makes me very happy. Heck, we even have several pro players supporting her!

 

[perfectchaos83]

Anyway, I'm still pretty set on Reimu being revealed for China. Whenever Smash gets a release for China, anyway. Timing didn't quite work out for FP5, which is why I was a bit skeptic of her being FP5 deep down in recent months.

EDIT: Looks like MindlessMage is going to contact some doujin circles. Explain your magic, mister!

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[MindlessMage]

Looks like MindlessMage is going to contact some doujin circles. Explain your magic, mister!

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I've interacted with a few doujin circle people on the Reimu For Smash account before. They weren't much but I seem to be able to get their attention. I also found out Tasofro has their DMs open. Soooooooo--

 

[BlackInk]

Anyway, I'm still pretty set on Reimu being revealed for China. Whenever Smash gets a release for China, anyway. Timing didn't quite work out for FP5, which is why I was a bit skeptic of her being FP5 deep down in recent months.

EDIT: Looks like MindlessMage is going to contact some doujin circles. Explain your magic, mister!

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Like hell they will ever admit it.

 

[TheTuninator]

Yup, I don't think there's any harm in it, but they're going to say it's nothing even if they have been contacted.

 

[KarneraMythos]

I have a very bad feeling their responses are going to be like that one twitter user who's in the circle that mocked the idea of them ever being involved with Smash, as if you'd have to be absolutely dumb to even think about having Touhou content in Smash. It's worrisome.

 

[BlackInk]

I have a very bad feeling their responses are going to be like that one twitter user who's in the circle that mocked the idea of them ever being involved with Smash, as if you'd have to be absolutely dumb to even think about having Touhou content in Smash. It's worrisome.

Will they laugh at Cat Jesus?

 

[BernkastelWitch]

On the subject of the "Hate" Reimu got, I feel like that's on par of the course with any anime-ish looking character or characters that ain't Geno, Sora, Master chief, Doom Guy, etc etc. I feel like the change in DLC discussion and character possibilities is a bit sudden for most people, especially since it's more than just the likes of Geno and whatnot being heavily discussed but a slew of other characters once people realized they're possible too.

And I bet you that most people who would whine about her if she got in would change their midns once they see her or would be the kind to heckle anyone, even if it's the most requested character in the first place.

 

[BlackInk]

On the subject of the "Hate" Reimu got, I feel like that's on par of the course with any anime-ish looking character or characters that ain't Geno, Sora, Master chief, Doom Guy, etc etc. I feel like the change in DLC discussion and character possibilities is a bit sudden for most people, especially since it's more than just the likes of Geno and whatnot being heavily discussed but a slew of other characters once people realized they're possible too.

And I bet you that most people who would whine about her if she got in would change their midns once they see her or would be the kind to heckle anyone, even if it's the most requested character in the first place.

It’s bizarre since everyone wants an Indie rep.

 

[cwbaaa]

When people think of “indie” they think of things like Cave Story, Undertale, Shantae, Shovel Knight, Hollow Knight, Binding of Isaac, etc.

People see Touhou as different. And in some ways, I suppose it is.

Edit: I just saw a dude on the Smash sub argue against Reimu ever being in Smash with one point being that most Touhou fans don’t even play or care about the games, just the “waifus”. That guy got hit with some downvotes, but I can’t say he’s exactly wrong. A lot of Touhou fans care more about the Touhou culture than the official material itself. Touhou legacy is more about how it snowballed than the games really.

 

[BlackInk]

When people think of “indie” they think of things like Cave Story, Undertale, Shantae, Shovel Knight, Hollow Knight, Binding of Isaac, etc.

People see Touhou as different. And in some ways, I suppose it is.

I say it’s more developed. Although, Hollow Knight is reaching that point just by two installments.

 

[perfectchaos83]

I have a very bad feeling their responses are going to be like that one twitter user who's in the circle that mocked the idea of them ever being involved with Smash, as if you'd have to be absolutely dumb to even think about having Touhou content in Smash. It's worrisome.

When was this?

 

[Wrathful_Scythe]

It’s bizarre since everyone wants an Indie rep.

People want "their" indie-rep, not "some" indie-rep. Significant difference in personal bias.
People will hate and people will jump at the chance to rub it in of course. Its just human nature to make others feel small.

Edit: I just saw a dude on the Smash sub argue against Reimu ever being in Smash with one point being that most Touhou fans don’t even play or care about the games, just the “waifus”. That guy got hit with some downvotes, but I can’t say he’s exactly wrong. A lot of Touhou fans care more about the Touhou culture than the official material itself. Touhou legacy is more about how it snowballed than the games really.

Weird argument. Not sure what one thing has to do with the other but for example, I doubt that most Fate-fans have finished the visual novels and still you see Saber popping up as a potential.

 

[perfectchaos83]

People want "their" indie-rep, not "some" indie-rep. Significant difference in personal bias.
People will hate and people will jump at the chance to rub it in of course. Its just human nature to make others feel small.


Weird argument. Not sure what one thing has to do with the other but for example, I doubt that most Fate-fans have finished the visual novels and still you see Saber popping up as a potential.

Hell, most Geno fans haven't even played SMRPG.

 

[Wrathful_Scythe]

Hell, most Geno fans haven't even played SMRPG.

But then, how do you come to like him? It was his only appearnace, wasn't it?
For me, he is just some obscure doll-looking character that appeared in one of the Mario games but has a fanatic fanbase in Smash. I expect others to kinda feel the same. And yeah, I played SMRPG but only for 1-2 hours. JRPGs tend to bore me.

 

[perfectchaos83]

But then, how do you come to like him? It was his only appearnace, wasn't it?
For me, he is just some obscure doll-looking character that appeared in one of the Mario games but has a fanatic fanbase in Smash. I expect others to kinda feel the same. And yeah, I played SMRPG but only for 1-2 hours. JRPGs tend to bore me.

Because of the hype surrounding in the Smash community. I've seen many Geno supporters say they never played SMRPG, they just want Geno in or something.

 

[GKMLTTSB]

Edit: I just saw a dude on the Smash sub argue against Reimu ever being in Smash with one point being that most Touhou fans don’t even play or care about the games, just the “waifus”. That guy got hit with some downvotes, but I can’t say he’s exactly wrong. A lot of Touhou fans care more about the Touhou culture than the official material itself. Touhou legacy is more about how it snowballed than the games really.

Which is fine...
While the core series has both the longevity and volume of content to justify its its inclusion on those merits alone, what really makes Touhou stand out as a property is the wider fanbase and the fact that it has essentially grown beyond its boundaries.
The fact that there are so many fans that care only about the characters, the music, the fanworks, etc. is why Touhou stands out amongst indies, or frankly, games in general. The 'ecosystem' that Touhou has generated is actually its most defining feature, and is the key reason I feel the series should be in Smash over other properties.

People that are attached to the characters, the world, etc. are more apt to follow it to Smash anyway.
Even if someone doesn't enjoy the intensity (or the gameplay in general) associated with the core series, the chance to see characters you love in a more accessible environment is a big draw, especially considering the care the Smash team tends to put into the supporting content.

 

[Wrathful_Scythe]

Because of the hype surrounding in the Smash community. I've seen many Geno supporters say they never played SMRPG, they just want Geno in or something.

I guess this is what years of missionary work does to you. It starts to affect you at some point.

 

[KarneraMythos]

When was this?

Lemme fetch the twitter comment. Riiiight here:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

"I'm really happy that I was involved in this commercial project where so many famous music circles are coming together, and I can assure you that I will never have such an opportunity again in the future"

-quote from someone who works in doujin circles involved with Touhou

edit: Apparently my translation is even underselling this; the tweet straight up mentions Smash Bros.

We discussed it briefly at the time. It came off as a thinly veiled jab at the Smash fanbase.

 

[perfectchaos83]

I remember this. I was under the impression they compared the project they were working on to Smash (due to being a collection of composers), not taking a Jab at it.

Though, A Ayumi Tachibana would know for sure.