• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Shrine Maiden of Paradise ~ Reimu Hakurei (Touhou Project)

Sc_Ev0lution

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 22, 2016
Messages
318
Last edited:

kaithehedgefox

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 11, 2017
Messages
1,454
I'm NOT going to whine about Sakuya, Remilia, Flandre etc. anymore, but I'm curious why are there so many Touhou fangames on consoles contrary to other franchises?

Because Sephiroth looks like Lord Sesshomaru and Reimu is a shine maiden kind of like Kikyo.
You and I know that it's just a coincidence.
 
Last edited:

Lyncario

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 3, 2019
Messages
926
Location
Hell
I'm NOT going to whine about Sakuya, Remilia, Flandre etc. anymore, but I'm curious why are there so many Touhou fangames on consoles contrary to other franchises?
Most copyright makes so that fangames cannot be commercialised unless the company holding the copyright really likes the fangame you made and accept to commercialise it as a spin-off (the one time I think that it hapened was with Megaman X Street Fighter, which was like a decade ago).

Meanwhile, Touhou copyright is way laxxer. If I'm not mistaken, pretty much the only thing you have to do is say that the ip belongs to ZUN, and to not use the assest from the official games, and you're good to go. Of course there's a bit more, but it's not much. And here's an article about it from the Touhou wiki that goes full in detail.
 

Soulor

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 5, 2019
Messages
62
Ah, how could I forget about T-Elos.

If KOS-MOS comes to Smash do you think T could be an alt or an echo?

I'd so main T-Elos though, lol. That uh DARK AESTHETIC, if you know what I mean, lol.
(and maybe they'll have their glasses)
 
Last edited:

Wrathful_Scythe

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 10, 2019
Messages
253
Location
Germany
Lets be honest, any of the playable would be fantastic except green Reimu. No one likes green Reimu. :nifty:

My deepest fever dream would be that on some smash related event, ZUN himself gets on stage and proclaims, while a smash rendition of Complete Darkness is playing, that he hasn't forgotten a certain character in all those years: Mima makes her return.
 

Commander_Alph

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 20, 2019
Messages
1,792
Lets be honest, any of the playable would be fantastic except green Reimu. No one likes green Reimu.
Tbh, if the DLC also include echo fighter I'll bet that Sanae is a perfect choice for Reimu being both a shrine maiden, rival to each other and of course wield a stick.

Tho I don't know much about Sanae's arsenal whether or not the behavior is the same as Reimu's I can totally see her being an echo.
 

PurpleXCompleX

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 2, 2015
Messages
154
Location
Germany
NNID
PurpleXCompleX
You guys talking about that "leak" mentioning Sephiroth, Crash, Reimu and KOS-MOS?
I dont see it coming as epic as it would be, since I'm rather thinking we will see Ryu Hayabusa in this pass.
Because of the various past Vergeben and etc. leaks last year which were confident about his inclusion.

And other than Koei Tecmo, we also have Kunio-Kun spirits from Arc System Works that also make me think we might get something like Guilty Gear Sol Badguy or something along those lines.
 
Last edited:

zriL

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 7, 2020
Messages
239
Most copyright makes so that fangames cannot be commercialised unless the company holding the copyright really likes the fangame you made and accept to commercialise it as a spin-off (the one time I think that it hapened was with Megaman X Street Fighter, which was like a decade ago).

Meanwhile, Touhou copyright is way laxxer. If I'm not mistaken, pretty much the only thing you have to do is say that the ip belongs to ZUN, and to not use the assest from the official games, and you're good to go. Of course there's a bit more, but it's not much. And here's an article about it from the Touhou wiki that goes full in detail.
You forgot the most important thing, for commercial use outside of doujins you have to ask ZUN first and he has the right to stop distribution as he please. This is the only reason we have only relatively small fangames and no big games with big publishers. This is how much ZUN likes indie spirit.

There is still one thing I've always been curious about. For those non-doujin fangames, like the ones on switch, I wonder if ZUN gets money out of it or nothing at all. Even if they are mostly small productions, they could still make tons of money, especially with ecomonic models like gachas. I wonder if there is a limit for how much money they can do.
 
Last edited:

Rie Sonomura

fly octo fly
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
19,720
NNID
RieSonomura
Switch FC
SW-4976-7649-4666
Ah, how could I forget about T-Elos.

If KOS-MOS comes to Smash do you think T could be an alt or an echo?

I'd so main T-Elos though, lol. That uh DARK AESTHETIC, if you know what I mean, lol.
(and maybe they'll have their glasses)
Dream? Echo

realistically? Alt. There hasn’t been an echo in dlc all this time and as much as I hate to admit it I don’t think that’ll change now

plus it matches up with the voice folders theory
 
Last edited:

Dr. Yatagarasu

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 16, 2020
Messages
126
You forgot the most important thing, for commercial use outside of doujins you have ask ZUN first and he has the right to stop distribution as he please. This is the only reason we have only relatively small fangames and no big games with big publishers. This is how much ZUN likes indie spirit.

There is still one thing I've been always curious about. For those non-doujin fangames, like the ones on switch, I wonder if ZUN gets money out of it or nothing at all. Even if they are mostly small productions, they could still make tons of money, especially with ecomonic models like gachas. I wonder if there is a limit for how much money they can do.
The real biggest no-no I can think of is crowdfunding - that is something that is very much not allowed.
 

Rie Sonomura

fly octo fly
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
19,720
NNID
RieSonomura
Switch FC
SW-4976-7649-4666
You guys talking about that "leak" mentioning Sephiroth, Crash, Reimu and KOS-MOS?
I dont see it coming as epic as it would be, since I'm rather thinking we will see Ryu Hayabusa in this pass.
Because of the various past Vergeben and etc. leaks last year which were confident about his inclusion.

And other than Koei Tecmo, we also have Kunio-Kun spirits from Arc System Works that also make me think we might get something like Guilty Gear Sol Badguy or something along those lines.
idk, i think the River City spirits being the first content ArcSys has doesn't bode well for an ArcSys rep. We still got Sephiroth this year despite the Trials of Mana and Octopath Traveler spirits... or perhaps, because of them cuz S-E already had two characters

i also aint feelin Hayabusa for some reason. and iirc i dont think verge explicitly name dropped Hayabusa, just that K-T was in talks with Sakurai in general.
 

zriL

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 7, 2020
Messages
239
i also aint feelin Hayabusa for some reason. and iirc i dont think verge explicitly name dropped Hayabusa, just that K-T was in talks with Sakurai in general.
The issue, is even when these small "leaks" are true, talks could be about anything, not just about a fighter, it could be about spirits or costumes, so it doesn't really means anything. I also feel less and less confident about the usual frontrunner picks, same about Lloyd, now I feel his costume will just come back next time and that's it. Hayabusa could also very well end up as a costume. The whole pass has been only unexpected picks, while very logical ones, it really means the community is very bad at this. I also doubt more and more about Crash. On the other hand, Reimu likeliness is really tied to how Nintendo would be interested to represent a certain side of gaming, namely shmups, music/rythm games or indies. She is still one the best to represent each of these things and very few candidates can represent so many things at the same time.

My biggest worry for Reimu is that Touhou games is not really the biggest accomplishment of Touhou. It's more about the aura coming from fanart, fan music, and memes. Smash is supposed to be a celebration of gaming, even if the source of all Touhou things are the games, I wonder if Nintendo would think that Touhou doesn't really celebrate gaming as much as it celebrates art in general. I wish we could have numbers about how much Touhou is actually played, because we know a lot of the fanbase barely play the games, and it might be very important point in Nintendo's decision.
 
Last edited:

Rie Sonomura

fly octo fly
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
19,720
NNID
RieSonomura
Switch FC
SW-4976-7649-4666
The issue, is even when these small "leaks" are true, talks could be about anything, not just about a fighter, it could be about spirits or costumes, so it doesn't really means anything. I also feel less and less confident about the usual frontrunner picks, same about Lloyd, now I feel his costume will just come back next time and that's it. Hayabusa could also very well end up as a costume. The whole pass has been only unexpected picks, while very logical ones, it really means the community is very bad at this. I also doubt more and more about Crash. On the other hand, Reimu likeliness is really tied to how Nintendo would be interested to represent a certain side of gaming, namely shmups, music/rythm games or indies. She is still one the best to represent each of these things and very few candidates can represent so many things at the same time.

My biggest worry for Reimu is that Touhou games is not really the biggest accomplishment of Touhou. It's more about the aura coming from fanart, fan music, and memes. Smash is supposed to be a celebration of gaming, even if the source of all Touhou things are the games, I wonder if Nintendo would think that Touhou doesn't really celebrate gaming as much as it celebrates art in general. I wish we could have numbers about how much Touhou is actually played, because we know a lot of the fanbase barely play the games, and it might be very important point in Nintendo's decision.
Hot take: that’s what I’m thinking will happen with him as well

Also K-T had a hand in Three Houses and Byleth is playable; also there’s the Yuri Kozukata (Fatal Frame) Assist Trophy. So yeah, I honestly am not confident in a playable Hayabusa at all

And if you ask me, Steve and Sephiroth stole any thunder Hayabusa might have had but that’s just my opinion

Anyway uhhhhhh back to Touhou and Reimu

You think Reimu would come with Indie Mii costumes? Shantae? Gunvolt? Crewmate from Among Us?

...Hollow Knight?
 
Last edited:

Commander_Alph

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 20, 2019
Messages
1,792
My biggest worry for Reimu is that Touhou games is not really the biggest accomplishment of Touhou. It's more about the aura coming from fanart, fan music, and memes. Smash is supposed to be a celebration of gaming, even if the source of all Touhou things are the games, I wonder if Nintendo would think that Touhou doesn't really celebrate gaming as much as it celebrates art in general. I wish we could have numbers about how much Touhou is actually played, because we know a lot of the fanbase barely play the games, and it might be very important point in Nintendo's decision.
I mean just like all the fanbase video game thrives because of their fans wether making fan art, music and etc. and all of these is what makes Touhou special, the series is basically the face of dedicated fans, an integral parts of video games and media.

Now onto the games. While yes not many people enjoy the original genre of Touhou and its spin-offs you forgot to mentioned the fangames which, even if it's not official, it is certainly acknowledge by ZUN and also encourage it which makes Touhou a jack of all trades and also makes it completely legal.
 
Last edited:

zriL

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 7, 2020
Messages
239
You think Reimu would come with Indie Mii costumes? Shantae? Gunvolt? Crewmate from Among Us?

...Hollow Knight?
Hollow Knight, very likely. Among us maybe. Shantae probably doesn't work as mii, firstly because she might not have enough clothes for a costume, and also because she really doesn't fight like any mii. But I also believe Shantae isn't big enough to be playable, so I'm afraid she'll stay as a spirit.

For Reimu, I've always thought she couldn't be a mii because her moves doesn't fit any mii. But this time, they added Aerith, a spellcaster, and gave her a staff to fight as a sword mii. Technically they could do that for Reimu. The other more fitting thing they could do with Touhou is mii hats, Touhou is known for its weird hats, and most characters can be recognized by their hat. But until now, they added very few mii hats as DLC, so I don't feel it's very likely, but it would make some sense. I also don't know if ZUN would settle for this, as I don't feel they are that many touhou skin crossovers.

Now onto the games. While yes not many people enjoy the original genre of Touhou and its spin-offs you forgot to mentioned the fangames which, even if it's not official, it is certainly acknowledge by ZUN and also encourage it which makes Touhou a jack of all trades and also makes it completely legal.
Yep, you could also argue that Touhou has probably indirectly created more games than any franchise. And this is a true gaming related achievement.
 
Last edited:

Rie Sonomura

fly octo fly
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
19,720
NNID
RieSonomura
Switch FC
SW-4976-7649-4666
Hollow Knight, very likely. Among us maybe. Shantae probably doesn't work as mii, firstly because she might not have enough clothes for a costume, and also because she really doesn't fight like any mii. But I also believe Shantae isn't big enough to be playable, so I'm afraid she'll stay as a spirit.

For Reimu, I've always thought she couldn't be a mii because her moves doesn't fit any mii. But this time, they added Aerith, a spellcaster, and gave her a staff to fight as a sword mii. Technically they could do that for Reimu. The other more fitting thing they could do with Touhou is mii hats, Touhou is known for its weird hats, and most characters can be recognized by their hat. But until now, they added very few mii hats as DLC, so I don't feel it's very likely, but it would make some sense. I also don't know if ZUN would settle for this, as I don't feel they are that many touhou skin crossovers.



Yep, you could also argue that Touhou has probably indirectly created more games than any franchise. And this is a true gaming related achievement.
How about a Gunvolt costume? I’d like it to come with some random Lumen song

I just really love the Gunvolt games ok
 

zriL

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 7, 2020
Messages
239
How about a Gunvolt costume? I’d like it to come with some random Lumen song

I just really love the Gunvolt games ok
I didn't know about Gunvolt until you mentionned it. It's not a very good sign to me, even for just a mii. Mii are usually about relatively known and/or recognizable things. From what I've seen, Gunvolt is quite recent and not very unique looking to me, looks quite cliche to be honest. I see there was also an anime. The games don't seem to have been big hits, but not complete flops since there are several of them. In the end, I can see spirits at best, we've seen much bigger things ending up as spirits.
The game looks fine though, looks like an actual spiritual successor to Megaman. I really think its biggest flaw is looking like cliche anime, it's really hard to stand out in that style because the market is so saturated with it. Look at Shovel Knight or Hollow knight, as good as the games are, their success also comes from their unique character designs.
 
Last edited:

SharkLord

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Messages
7,688
Location
Pangaea, 250 MYA
The issue, is even when these small "leaks" are true, talks could be about anything, not just about a fighter, it could be about spirits or costumes, so it doesn't really means anything. I also feel less and less confident about the usual frontrunner picks, same about Lloyd, now I feel his costume will just come back next time and that's it. Hayabusa could also very well end up as a costume. The whole pass has been only unexpected picks, while very logical ones, it really means the community is very bad at this. I also doubt more and more about Crash. On the other hand, Reimu likeliness is really tied to how Nintendo would be interested to represent a certain side of gaming, namely shmups, music/rythm games or indies. She is still one the best to represent each of these things and very few candidates can represent so many things at the same time.

My biggest worry for Reimu is that Touhou games is not really the biggest accomplishment of Touhou. It's more about the aura coming from fanart, fan music, and memes. Smash is supposed to be a celebration of gaming, even if the source of all Touhou things are the games, I wonder if Nintendo would think that Touhou doesn't really celebrate gaming as much as it celebrates art in general. I wish we could have numbers about how much Touhou is actually played, because we know a lot of the fanbase barely play the games, and it might be very important point in Nintendo's decision.
I mean Sephiroth's trailer just straight-up the Advent Children movie so...
Hot take: that’s what I’m thinking will happen with him as well

Also K-T had a hand in Three Houses and Byleth is playable; also there’s the Yuri Kozukata (Fatal Frame) Assist Trophy. So yeah, I honestly am not confident in a playable Hayabusa at all

And if you ask me, Steve and Sephiroth stole any thunder Hayabusa might have had but that’s just my opinion

Anyway uhhhhhh back to Touhou and Reimu

You think Reimu would come with Indie Mii costumes? Shantae? Gunvolt? Crewmate from Among Us?

...Hollow Knight?
VIVIT :4pacman:
 

SharkLord

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Messages
7,688
Location
Pangaea, 250 MYA
Uhhhh who?
She's the main character of the Seihou Project, considered a sort of sister series to Touhou. While it has fairly similar gameplay, it uses a futuristic Western world rather than a magical Eastern one. It ran between Touhou's PC-98 and Windows eras, then went on hold. The main reason people remember it is that Reimu and Marisa appeared in the first game, then Yuuka in the second. Reimu's theme from her appearance, Dichromatic Lotus Butterfly, has been remixed a fair bit in Touhou itself.
 

zferolie

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 2, 2013
Messages
5,002
Gonna have to disgree that Shantae isn't big enough to become playable. She and Reimu are my most wanted and both have earned a spot in the playable roster. However, Shantae doesn't work at all for a Mii fighter, so she will be playable or nothing.

As for Indie characters that work as Mii fighters, Hallow Knight seems like a shoe in honestly, and surprised it hasn't happened yet. Madaline from Celest can work as well.
 

Paraster

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
1,463
Location
The 104 Building
You think Reimu would come with Indie Mii costumes? Shantae? Gunvolt? Crewmate from Among Us?

...Hollow Knight?
I say Quote from Cave Story (assuming he doesn't become a fighter as well). Hat Kid would be neat, too. (Also Madeline and the Knight, but they've already been mentioned.)

I also think it'd be hilarious if a character from Rivals of Aether (likely Zetterburn and/or Orcane as Brawlers) got a costume.
 
Last edited:

kaithehedgefox

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 11, 2017
Messages
1,454
You guys talking about that "leak" mentioning Sephiroth, Crash, Reimu and KOS-MOS?
I dont see it coming as epic as it would be, since I'm rather thinking we will see Ryu Hayabusa in this pass.
I already predicted that Hayabusa would be in fighters pass 2 once.
 

Rie Sonomura

fly octo fly
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
19,720
NNID
RieSonomura
Switch FC
SW-4976-7649-4666
Oh frick

I knew I was forgetting an indie costume

ORI
 

TheTuninator

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 25, 2013
Messages
2,315
Lets be honest, any of the playable would be fantastic except green Reimu. No one likes green Reimu. :nifty:

My deepest fever dream would be that on some smash related event, ZUN himself gets on stage and proclaims, while a smash rendition of Complete Darkness is playing, that he hasn't forgotten a certain character in all those years: Mima makes her return.
Personally, I hope Mima never comes back. Marisa is my favorite 2hu, and I always thought that the idea of her effectively being someone's lackey and just being taught everything she knows was really lame. I much prefer the Windows-era Marisa who's a scrappy ordinary magician who pulled herself up entirely by her bootstraps in a world full of nutjobs; she's just more fun that way.
 

GolisoPower

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 17, 2017
Messages
4,397
Personally, I hope Mima never comes back. Marisa is my favorite 2hu, and I always thought that the idea of her effectively being someone's lackey and just being taught everything she knows was really lame. I much prefer the Windows-era Marisa who's a scrappy ordinary magician who pulled herself up entirely by her bootstraps in a world full of nutjobs; she's just more fun that way.
Well, tbf, ZUN has changed characters from the PC-98 era to fit the narrative of the Windows era before (Alice Margatroid, Yuuka Kazami). I'd kind of imagine Mima being a sort of diabolical prankster who just so happens to have a fixation on Marisa or something.
 
Last edited:

SharkLord

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Messages
7,688
Location
Pangaea, 250 MYA
Gonna have to disgree that Shantae isn't big enough to become playable. She and Reimu are my most wanted and both have earned a spot in the playable roster. However, Shantae doesn't work at all for a Mii fighter, so she will be playable or nothing.

As for Indie characters that work as Mii fighters, Hallow Knight seems like a shoe in honestly, and surprised it hasn't happened yet. Madaline from Celest can work as well.
I think we broke the limits for what would logically work on a Mii Fighter somewhere between Callie beating you to death with her bare hands and these horrid abominations
Creeper_Mii_Costume_SSBU.jpg
 

Wrathful_Scythe

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 10, 2019
Messages
253
Location
Germany
Personally, I hope Mima never comes back. Marisa is my favorite 2hu, and I always thought that the idea of her effectively being someone's lackey and just being taught everything she knows was really lame. I much prefer the Windows-era Marisa who's a scrappy ordinary magician who pulled herself up entirely by her bootstraps in a world full of nutjobs; she's just more fun that way.
Definitely on your side with this one. Marisas backghround is one of the aspects that makes her endearing. No wonder she is objectively the best character of the series bar none. Not sure why we bother with popularity polls in the first place.

On that note: Marisas background is set in stone and Mima has no place in it as it stands. PC98 and Windows canon are different. Like Yuuka and Alice, Mima would have a different background and I don't believe we would get more than a vague remark on how they might have met in the past, like with Yuuka.
 

zriL

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 7, 2020
Messages
239
Gonna have to disgree that Shantae isn't big enough to become playable. She and Reimu are my most wanted and both have earned a spot in the playable roster. However, Shantae doesn't work at all for a Mii fighter, so she will be playable or nothing.
It's off topic but I'm curious about what do you think Shantae has that other candidates don't, besides a really creative move set potential. Hundreds of characters have that so it won't make any character stand out. DLC so far confirms that it's not very important, only Hero, Min Min and Steve had really creative movesets. Besides, creative movesets cost more and this is the only reason we didn't get Steve earlier. Shantae's transmations could be quite costly if they want to use it well.

In my opinion, to be a legitimate candidate as third party, you need to be first or close to best representative for at least one aspect of gaming.
For example :
Joker : I really have a hard time understanding this pick but to at least it was RPG of the year at TGA the previous year (2017)
Hero : biggest jrpg franchise not in the game yet
Banjo : biggest platformer not in the game, at least on Nintendo platforms. Even then, I believe only Crash would top Banjo in platformers.
Terry : one of the biggest and oldest fighting game franchise, there are a lot of other big fighting games, but it's easy to argue Fatal Fury/KOF is up there
Steve : best selling game of all time
Sephiroth : most iconic villain not in the game yet, only competition would be Eggman

Shantae :
2D Platformer ? I believe Shovel Night, Hollow Knight, Celeste and probably many others are more deserving. There are also older ones like Ninja Gaiden.
Indie ? Same as before, add Touhou and Cave Story to that.
Joker pick ? Unless I'm mistaken, Shantae didn't get any notable prize
Sales ? I don't recall Shantae's sales is anything special

So I don't know what Shantae brings to the table. Sorry if I sound harsh but I always look at this things in a pragmatic way because I believe Nintendo doesn't decide these things in any other way.
 
Last edited:

TheTuninator

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 25, 2013
Messages
2,315
It's off topic but I'm curious about what do you think Shantae has that other candidates don't, besides a really creative move set potential. Hundreds of characters have that so it won't make any character stand out. DLC so far confirms that it's not very important, only Hero, Min Min and Steve had really creative movesets. Besides, creative movesets cost more and this is the only reason we didn't get Steve earlier. Shantae's transmations could be quite costly if they want to use it well.

In my opinion, to be a legitimate candidate as third party, you need to be first or close to best representative for at least one aspect of gaming.
For example :
Joker : I really have a hard time understanding this pick but to at least it was RPG of the year at TGA the previous year (2017)
Hero : biggest jrpg franchise not in the game yet
Banjo : biggest platformer not in the game, at least on Nintendo platforms. Even then, I believe only Crash would top Banjo in platformers.
Terry : one of the biggest and oldest fighting game franchise, there are a lot of other big fighting games, but it's easy to argue Fatal Fury/KOF is up there
Steve : best selling game of all time
Sephiroth : most iconic villain not in the game yet, only competition would be Eggman

Shantae :
2D Platformer ? I believe Shovel Night, Hollow Knight, Celeste and probably many others are more deserving. There are also older ones like Ninja Gaiden.
Indie ? Same as before, add Touhou and Cave Story to that.
Joker pick ? Unless I'm mistaken, Shantae didn't get any notable prize
Sales ? I don't recall Shantae's sales is anything special

So I don't know what Shantae brings to the table. Sorry if I sound harsh but I always look at this things in a pragmatic way because I believe Nintendo doesn't decide these things in any other way.
Frankly, Shantae has always come across to me as one of those characters that punches way above their weight in roster speculation circles for whatever reason, thus giving the false impression that they're far more popular than they actually are.

Definitely on your side with this one. Marisas backghround is one of the aspects that makes her endearing. No wonder she is objectively the best character of the series bar none. Not sure why we bother with popularity polls in the first place.

On that note: Marisas background is set in stone and Mima has no place in it as it stands. PC98 and Windows canon are different. Like Yuuka and Alice, Mima would have a different background and I don't believe we would get more than a vague remark on how they might have met in the past, like with Yuuka.
Very good points!
 

SharkLord

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Messages
7,688
Location
Pangaea, 250 MYA
It's off topic but I'm curious about what do you think Shantae has that other candidates don't, besides a really creative move set potential. Hundreds of characters have that so it won't make any character stand out. DLC so far confirms that it's not very important, only Hero, Min Min and Steve had really creative movesets. Besides, creative movesets cost more and this is the only reason we didn't get Steve earlier. Shantae's transmations could be quite costly if they want to use it well.

In my opinion, to be a legitimate candidate as third party, you need to be first or close to best representative for at least one aspect of gaming.
For example :
Joker : I really have a hard time understanding this pick but to at least it was RPG of the year at TGA the previous year (2017)
Hero : biggest jrpg franchise not in the game yet
Banjo : biggest platformer not in the game, at least on Nintendo platforms. Even then, I believe only Crash would top Banjo in platformers.
Terry : one of the biggest and oldest fighting game franchise, there are a lot of other big fighting games, but it's easy to argue Fatal Fury/KOF is up there
Steve : best selling game of all time
Sephiroth : most iconic villain not in the game yet, only competition would be Eggman

Shantae :
2D Platformer ? I believe Shovel Night, Hollow Knight, Celeste and probably many others are more deserving. There are also older ones like Ninja Gaiden.
Indie ? Same as before, add Touhou and Cave Story to that.
Joker pick ? Unless I'm mistaken, Shantae didn't get any notable prize
Sales ? I don't recall Shantae's sales is anything special

So I don't know what Shantae brings to the table. Sorry if I sound harsh but I always look at this things in a pragmatic way because I believe Nintendo doesn't decide these things in any other way.
For Joker, Persona 5 was a recent success and Nintendo probably wanted to strike while the iron was hot. For Banjo, they got in because A: Minecraft made a bridge between Nintendo and Microsoft, and more importantly, B: Banjo had a massive amount of requests.

For Shantae, she has a mix of things going for her, but other characters fill those roles more than she does. She has indie seniority, but she was stuck in cult classic status for over a decade while games like Touhou and Cave Story hit it big. She experienced a surge in popularity during the indie boom, but so did many others. She has a decent amount of appearances outside her home series, but Shovel Knight has more (Granted, that's not saying much when it's %$#@ING SHOVEL KNIGHT). She has pretty good Nintendo connections, but that isn't a major qualifier anymore and many other indies have enough connections anyways.

I think she has a decent shot, but there's other indies that have a better shot, namely Reimu and Shovel Knight.
 

zriL

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 7, 2020
Messages
239
Frankly, Shantae has always come across to me as one of those characters that punches way above their weight in roster speculation circles for whatever reason, thus giving the false impression that they're far more popular than they actually are.
Probably second only to Geno, even though Geno has always been much worse. The reasons could be much more simple than you think. Apparently, Shantae's dev pushed quite hard for Smash inclusion and talked about it publicly. Very few devs have done that ever, probably because once discussion is engaged you must stop talking about it. But it should be no surprise that it gave the game more exposition in the Smash community. Honestly, it looks like it was a pretty good PR move at least.

Coincidentally, ZUN also talked about Smash without being asked, and this is also what made Reimu's popularity grow inside of Smash's community.
 
Last edited:

zriL

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 7, 2020
Messages
239
For Shantae, she has a mix of things going for her, but other characters fill those roles more than she does.
This is exactly why I can't consider her chances as "decent". Nintendo will always choose the best first, right now Nintendo has no reason to chose Shantae over others. Though once more characters get added, she might get a chance in future smash games, unless newer games get in before her everytime.
In the end, I believe she only need one great game to become a great candidate. For example, if her last game had been really great, I mean good enough to gain more exposure and to be nominated at TGA for example, she would instantly become a great addition because she also has a legacy to back it up. That's exactly what happened to Joker.
 
Last edited:

TheTuninator

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 25, 2013
Messages
2,315
For Joker, Persona 5 was a recent success and Nintendo probably wanted to strike while the iron was hot. For Banjo, they got in because A: Minecraft made a bridge between Nintendo and Microsoft, and more importantly, B: Banjo had a massive amount of requests.

For Shantae, she has a mix of things going for her, but other characters fill those roles more than she does. She has indie seniority, but she was stuck in cult classic status for over a decade while games like Touhou and Cave Story hit it big. She experienced a surge in popularity during the indie boom, but so did many others. She has a decent amount of appearances outside her home series, but Shovel Knight has more (Granted, that's not saying much when it's %$#@ING SHOVEL KNIGHT). She has pretty good Nintendo connections, but that isn't a major qualifier anymore and many other indies have enough connections anyways.

I think she has a decent shot, but there's other indies that have a better shot, namely Reimu and Shovel Knight.
P5 is also pretty much hands down the best JRPG of its generation. It's hard to overstate just how phenomenally well-designed and well put-together a game it is.
 

SharkLord

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Messages
7,688
Location
Pangaea, 250 MYA
P5 is also pretty much hands down the best JRPG of its generation. It's hard to overstate just how phenomenally well-designed and well put-together a game it is.
I would assume so. I don't have a PlayStation to play it with, but I'd imagine that glowing praise would have to come from somewhere.
 

BernkastelWitch

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 20, 2019
Messages
530
Honestly I feel like the main advantage Shantae has is being more "Casual" friendly since even casual players know her specifically and she already has a spirit in the game, meaning she has content in Smash already.

What Touhou has is a lot of variety for content and predating Shantae as the "Oldest Indie series" around. I consider Touhou a more "Hardcore" series in the sense that fewer people actually played the games compared to Shantae but it has a stronger legacy and IMO gives it stronger chances than most possible Indie reps. Shantae would be great in Smash and in an ideal world, both her and Reimu would get in the roster but unless there's more passes, it may likely be Reimu who will fill the big indie game.

And people keep saying Reimu would be good as a "Mii Costume" but no playstyle fits her unless they pull an Aerith Mii here. If we had a Mii mage character then I could see it(Sidenote I am surprised we don't have that) but unless you want things to be really wonky, a Reimu Mii Costume is unlikely.
 
Top Bottom