bballstar23
Smash Ace
Are you sure? I would check, but my Gamecube isn't working right now.
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SHOW ME YOUR NEWS! - Gaming News PODCAST (Ep. 76 OUT!, New WEBSITE and iTunes!)
- Thread starter Youko
- Start date
Cless
Smash Champion
Here's the original character select screen for melee.
Mario Pikachu Bowser Peach Yoshi DK C. Falcon
Fox Ness Ice Climbers Kirby Samus Zelda Link
? ? ? ? ?
Eh, best I could do on short notice.
The stage select screen looks exactly the same as it does fully unlocked (save for the hidden stages that appear at the very bottom) and we start with 18 stages.
Mario Pikachu Bowser Peach Yoshi DK C. Falcon
Fox Ness Ice Climbers Kirby Samus Zelda Link
? ? ? ? ?
Eh, best I could do on short notice.
The stage select screen looks exactly the same as it does fully unlocked (save for the hidden stages that appear at the very bottom) and we start with 18 stages.
Al Calnos
Smash Journeyman
Another great episode as always. I have to disagree with Panda's theory though.
Despite how badass Meta Knight is, and even if we unlock characters rapidly, I still think Kirby will still be a starter. It would be like making Luigi a starter but having to unlock Mario.
Another thing is that in this video it shows you can actually choose between Mario or Kirby in that first fight in the Subspace Emissary. Would you unlock Kirby as playing as him or against him? Oh well, I guess we'll just have to wait to find out.
And oh hey! its almost time for the Dojo update...
Despite how badass Meta Knight is, and even if we unlock characters rapidly, I still think Kirby will still be a starter. It would be like making Luigi a starter but having to unlock Mario.
Another thing is that in this video it shows you can actually choose between Mario or Kirby in that first fight in the Subspace Emissary. Would you unlock Kirby as playing as him or against him? Oh well, I guess we'll just have to wait to find out.
And oh hey! its almost time for the Dojo update...
UrajKingofDarkness
Smash Journeyman
Listening to the podcast now, it's really good so far.
I wanted to make the point, SamuraiPanda, that I think, while 2-minute time matches might be the starter online, it'll be possible to set it to stock anyways. And if everyone DOES set it to stock (which I assume they would), then that won't be a problem.
Also, Jump Ultimate Stars is a laughable game to call deep. It did have a decent online mode, but Bleach DS 2nd had a better online with pretty much all the same options as JUS, but more even (Bleach DS 2nd can have up to 4 players but you can choose 1v1s or 4p ffas, just to name one extra mode). Sorry, no offense, but I harbor a vendetta against Jump Ultimate Stars. It's just a fan service bonanza.
I wanted to make the point, SamuraiPanda, that I think, while 2-minute time matches might be the starter online, it'll be possible to set it to stock anyways. And if everyone DOES set it to stock (which I assume they would), then that won't be a problem.
Also, Jump Ultimate Stars is a laughable game to call deep. It did have a decent online mode, but Bleach DS 2nd had a better online with pretty much all the same options as JUS, but more even (Bleach DS 2nd can have up to 4 players but you can choose 1v1s or 4p ffas, just to name one extra mode). Sorry, no offense, but I harbor a vendetta against Jump Ultimate Stars. It's just a fan service bonanza.
Bli33ard
Smash Journeyman
I got owneeeeeeeeeeedddddddddddddddddd on the podcast.
Haha. Still listening.
Haha. Still listening.
Uchiha.Sanosuke
Smash Journeyman
I...actually support the Conspiracy Theoracy.
I'm not going to bother fighting against it since there's so much proof for it, and besides, I like unlocking stuff. Moreso than fighting bosses, going through amazing levels, and even watching the end credits. The fact that I could be unlocking stuff every ten minutes makes me very happy.
And Buzz, you still rock.
I'm not going to bother fighting against it since there's so much proof for it, and besides, I like unlocking stuff. Moreso than fighting bosses, going through amazing levels, and even watching the end credits. The fact that I could be unlocking stuff every ten minutes makes me very happy.
And Buzz, you still rock.
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 22, 2006
- Messages
- 6,924
JUS is easily comparable to Smash, while BDS2 is more of a traditional 2d fighter. And for some reason BDS2 online lagged alot more often than JUS for me.
I did indeed listen to the podcast and apart from Donatello being confirmed for Brawl, I rarely had anything to disagree with. I had always believe that time battles are useless and worthless post-SSB64. Why "post-SSB64"? Well I had always favored stock battles and believe that a limited number of lives was surely the way to go in proving who is truely the best smasher (with items no items of course). Keep in mind at this time, I was only 13 at the time and the only person I could play against was my older brother. Every one else I knew had the notion that the PS1 was the cool system and that only "***s" played N64 games (except for Goldeneye).
When it got to the point that our matches would get close, the winner basically became the person who didn't get tornado/arwing-*****. Thus we figured that the fair way to decide who truely was more skilled would be to do a time battle. Only problem with that, was that the stage hazards "stole kills", so to speak. On top of that, beating up on a person with unlimited stock for a set amount of time could get so dull without items that we eventuallyconvinced ourselves to keep all items off except bo-bombs, baseball bats, and beam swords. Since then, time battles no longer became remotely enjoyable unless items were involved somehow. And even though it is possible to be skilled with items, items don't make you a more skilled player (that sounds like a self-contradictory statement at first, but read it again and it'll make sense...and feel free to quote me on it).
But the key part of our decision (prior to becoming bored enough to use items) was that we felt that given unlimited stock, we could truely determine who would've won in a stock battle negating the stage hazards. Then when Melee came out and stages like Final Destination and Battlefield were introduced, the world became a better place. When my older brother left for college, graduated, and got his own apartment, the only person I oculd play Melee wth was my sister. I'll have you know that she's played a lot of it now (mostly with me) and she absolutely hate items.
So basically, I believe that time battle is absolutely worthless on a tourney-level stage. I could've just said that from the beginning, but typing a ballsload of useless crap is what I do.
Patriots 13 - 0
When it got to the point that our matches would get close, the winner basically became the person who didn't get tornado/arwing-*****. Thus we figured that the fair way to decide who truely was more skilled would be to do a time battle. Only problem with that, was that the stage hazards "stole kills", so to speak. On top of that, beating up on a person with unlimited stock for a set amount of time could get so dull without items that we eventuallyconvinced ourselves to keep all items off except bo-bombs, baseball bats, and beam swords. Since then, time battles no longer became remotely enjoyable unless items were involved somehow. And even though it is possible to be skilled with items, items don't make you a more skilled player (that sounds like a self-contradictory statement at first, but read it again and it'll make sense...and feel free to quote me on it).
But the key part of our decision (prior to becoming bored enough to use items) was that we felt that given unlimited stock, we could truely determine who would've won in a stock battle negating the stage hazards. Then when Melee came out and stages like Final Destination and Battlefield were introduced, the world became a better place. When my older brother left for college, graduated, and got his own apartment, the only person I oculd play Melee wth was my sister. I'll have you know that she's played a lot of it now (mostly with me) and she absolutely hate items.
So basically, I believe that time battle is absolutely worthless on a tourney-level stage. I could've just said that from the beginning, but typing a ballsload of useless crap is what I do.
Patriots 13 - 0
Leobenmc
Smash Journeyman
This podcast was mediocre, one of the worst in the series IMHO.
It was badly organised and just was not immersive or entertaining. SMYN23's only saving grace was Buzz - he was incredible, informative, and kept this podcast flowing.
As I stated before, OPINION. I hope things improve for the next one.
(And SamuraiPanda not knowing who SuperDoodleMan is? ARGH, I didn't know a Smasher who hasn't watched "Wrath of Giga Bowser" - Roy Counter ftw - or "Perfect Control")
It was badly organised and just was not immersive or entertaining. SMYN23's only saving grace was Buzz - he was incredible, informative, and kept this podcast flowing.
As I stated before, OPINION. I hope things improve for the next one.
(And SamuraiPanda not knowing who SuperDoodleMan is? ARGH, I didn't know a Smasher who hasn't watched "Wrath of Giga Bowser" - Roy Counter ftw - or "Perfect Control")
Youko
Podcasting Pro
Silver777 appeared on a Mailtime or two, but yes, you were the first girl to actually contribute to conversation in real-time. I guess you could call that a win.
Hey ho. Im listing to ever "SHOW ME YOUR NEWS" episode since the beginning and your doing a really good job. Every monday before i drive to college, i put "SHOW ME YOUR NEWS" on my mp3 player, its perfect match, becauce i drive 1 hour *g* So please dont short the recordtime of the podcast!
This week was really funny again, but would me wish more love for us europan and please no nazi joks. Im German and its annoying to hear them all the time form americans ...
I also would like to join a round in the round table. But I dont know if my english is good enough for a podcast, it would be some "...ahhh..." in finding words. Listing is no big problem, but speaking ... dont get much practice in this here *g* But hey you would get somebody from a other country that not even speek english ^^ Also i know really much about nintendo (games, history, storys, etc.), videogames (study media/communication design and a part of it is videogame design) and i create the biggest SSBM Website in Germany since the release of the game. I also work on a SSBB Page with rankings, tournaments, etc. Ok, i need a lot more time to finally finsh the job ... but with the late release date, i got my chance ^^''
Actually i post beacause of 2 Things:
1. "Only 2min Time Match"
They never say there is only "2min Time Match" or? I dont know if there is any information on the japanese Page, but in the english and german page there is nothing.
We only got this picture:
Know how we change the match setting in Melee? We press on the text above the character icons, than we get to a menu and we can change the match settings. I think its the same here. Standart is 2min Time Match ... its also the standart selection in Melee Vs-Mode!
So if there is no other information on the japanese page, i dont see a problem.
2. “SamuraiPanda Conspiracy Theoracy”
So there two points against your theory.
The first is the missing of Kirby. Mario, Kirby, Link and Pikachu are the main nintendo characters, they were the first characters in the first brawl movie AND Sakurai is the creator of Kirby. Why should he be unlockable?
Ok you say, the first match in the Subspace Emissary can unlock him, because you fighting him ... but .... there ist a video of the Subspace Emissary form the E-4-All and there you can see that the player can CHOOSE between Kirby and Mario! That means you could fight as Kirby against Mario. It would be really bad gamedesign to play with a character you cant practice with ... even its the first match!
Well and this brings me to my second point.
Gamedesign.
Unlockables in the would of gaming working like cookings. You did a good thing , you get a cookie. You did a really good thing, you get a rellay BIG cookie. And thats my point. When you give the player in the beginng of a game to much, they want even more in the end.
We see it right know in the Dojo Updates! We got good updates in the beginng and everybody was happy. Than we got slowly to the release and we got even better updates. Everbody was even more happier. Than there was the delay ... Nintendo went out of big cookies, but they gave us already the tasty big cookies and we want more, but we didn't get more. So everybody is disappointed.
Thats why you have to save your best goodies for the end ... and whats better then characters? Also where would be the surprise by fighting Kirby or King Dedede in the first match and event? The point of secrets and goodies are that there are secret or hard to reach.
Giving players an character in the first event and the first match of the story mode would be the easiest unlock of all time!.
Also i hope they dont forget about the tradition that the first character unlock have to be Jigglypuff =P
This week was really funny again, but would me wish more love for us europan and please no nazi joks. Im German and its annoying to hear them all the time form americans ...
I also would like to join a round in the round table. But I dont know if my english is good enough for a podcast, it would be some "...ahhh..." in finding words. Listing is no big problem, but speaking ... dont get much practice in this here *g* But hey you would get somebody from a other country that not even speek english ^^ Also i know really much about nintendo (games, history, storys, etc.), videogames (study media/communication design and a part of it is videogame design) and i create the biggest SSBM Website in Germany since the release of the game. I also work on a SSBB Page with rankings, tournaments, etc. Ok, i need a lot more time to finally finsh the job ... but with the late release date, i got my chance ^^''
Actually i post beacause of 2 Things:
1. "Only 2min Time Match"
They never say there is only "2min Time Match" or? I dont know if there is any information on the japanese Page, but in the english and german page there is nothing.
We only got this picture:
Know how we change the match setting in Melee? We press on the text above the character icons, than we get to a menu and we can change the match settings. I think its the same here. Standart is 2min Time Match ... its also the standart selection in Melee Vs-Mode!
So if there is no other information on the japanese page, i dont see a problem.
2. “SamuraiPanda Conspiracy Theoracy”
So there two points against your theory.
The first is the missing of Kirby. Mario, Kirby, Link and Pikachu are the main nintendo characters, they were the first characters in the first brawl movie AND Sakurai is the creator of Kirby. Why should he be unlockable?
Ok you say, the first match in the Subspace Emissary can unlock him, because you fighting him ... but .... there ist a video of the Subspace Emissary form the E-4-All and there you can see that the player can CHOOSE between Kirby and Mario! That means you could fight as Kirby against Mario. It would be really bad gamedesign to play with a character you cant practice with ... even its the first match!
Well and this brings me to my second point.
Gamedesign.
Unlockables in the would of gaming working like cookings. You did a good thing , you get a cookie. You did a really good thing, you get a rellay BIG cookie. And thats my point. When you give the player in the beginng of a game to much, they want even more in the end.
We see it right know in the Dojo Updates! We got good updates in the beginng and everybody was happy. Than we got slowly to the release and we got even better updates. Everbody was even more happier. Than there was the delay ... Nintendo went out of big cookies, but they gave us already the tasty big cookies and we want more, but we didn't get more. So everybody is disappointed.
Thats why you have to save your best goodies for the end ... and whats better then characters? Also where would be the surprise by fighting Kirby or King Dedede in the first match and event? The point of secrets and goodies are that there are secret or hard to reach.
Giving players an character in the first event and the first match of the story mode would be the easiest unlock of all time!.
Also i hope they dont forget about the tradition that the first character unlock have to be Jigglypuff =P
Bli33ard
Smash Journeyman
Oh, is it me, or did the Roundtable get cut off too early? The last I heard was SugarPoultry's thing about Silver, etc, what different moves he'd have from Sonic...
But nevertheless, great podcast. The theoracy wasn't as bombshell-tastic as I had hoped, but still it made the speculation in my mind die a little
I was quite satisfied with that.
And going back to the British impression... we got owned. Partly due to Youko's few and far between impression. Ah well. At least he tried
Great podcast, though 9/10 this week, cause it got cut off at the end. And Buzz added A LOT to the discussion. So all in all, I guess I'll get to work making those Brawl Viewpoints again, and maybe predict something that will magically appear on the DOJO!
But nevertheless, great podcast. The theoracy wasn't as bombshell-tastic as I had hoped, but still it made the speculation in my mind die a little
I was quite satisfied with that.And going back to the British impression... we got owned. Partly due to Youko's few and far between impression. Ah well. At least he tried
Great podcast, though 9/10 this week, cause it got cut off at the end. And Buzz added A LOT to the discussion. So all in all, I guess I'll get to work making those Brawl Viewpoints again, and maybe predict something that will magically appear on the DOJO!
CCC07
Smash Apprentice
Excellent podcast. very informative and listenable. keep up the good
work.
work.
Youko
Podcasting Pro
Yeah...I tried on the impression and didn't have much of a choice either. All I said that was "stereotypical," if you will, was "sucks bullocks" and "bonkers," IIRC. That and my sucktastic accent. I'm sorry...:\
Onichi
Smash Apprentice
Edit: wrong thread
Youko
Podcasting Pro
5 WEEKS in advance. Big difference.
The whole point of this Conspiracy Theoracy is to open your guys' minds to the idea that this is POSSIBLE, not a definite probability. Even in the thread he made for this idea, Panda said he would rather be wrong. This concept is to document the idea before the game comes out and to look back on it after release. After all, I think it's going to be the retrospective looking on SMYN that will be the best part of the podcast, but that's just me.
SirroMinus1
SiNiStEr MiNiStEr
a good way to explain the CPU's super human reflex is there power sheilding falcos SHL foxes shl and some attacks, messing up your Shffle with a tilt. thats annoying
Onichi
Smash Apprentice
Well Youko, sorry i moved my comment, but you do have a point. I agree with most of Samurai's points, he makes a good argument. I just am not keen on it happening =P
5 weeks does make a difference.
5 weeks does make a difference.
Cyberlink420
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2006
- Messages
- 655
- Location
- The recesses of my own mind
- NNID
- cyberlink420
- 3DS FC
- 1461-6271-9006
Hey, it could have been worse. You could have tried doing an impression of Abridged Bakura...
Anyway, great job on the Podcast, guys. As much as I don't like the Conspiracy Theoracy, I can't help but agree that a lot of the points Panda made are more than valid, and it very well might be true. Unfortunately, we've still got to wait another month until the Japanese release to know for sure.
Out of curiosity, what program do you guys use to record the roundtable? I assume it's Skype, but I just want to check and make sure, as I'm working on preparing a roundtable audition and I don't want to be screwed over because of technical limitations.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2005
- Messages
- 10,479
Thanx to Uchiha.Sanosuke, Bli33ard, colbusman, and everyone else who liked me on the roundtable. I lost track of the compliments, but I am grateful for the support. I enjoyed being on the show very much, and I am glad I could contribute to this.
Bli33ard
Smash Journeyman
Youko, don't feel bad. It was quite funny :D
No problem Buzz. Mrs. Buzz contributed her fair share too, though, which was quite good. We need more females on the show!!! (Lolz for that)
:DNo problem Buzz. Mrs. Buzz contributed her fair share too, though, which was quite good. We need more females on the show!!! (Lolz for that)
Masterem243
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2007
- Messages
- 1,576
No you're not...
Another excellent podcast, guys.
Keep up the good work.
Keep up the good work.
bossyjellyfish
Foxes Mate for Life
Great job, it would be cool if you kept the podcast after the game's release.
RoyalRook
Smash Journeyman
Umm not bad. Really interesting in the end. Monday dojo update is awesome, there was a party in my pants......eat my shirt. It seem that Sakurai is trying to piss people off, maybe because of your podcast? Lol, don't flatter yourself, but then again, there are three DK in Bawl, so anything is possible.....Diddy Kong is soooooooooo lame.
Just got done with the podcast. I loved Buzz and Sugarpoultry; always wanted to know what they sounded like. About Pandah's "theoracy"....I think that some characters weren't put in for a reason. I think someon said somewhere that 3rd parties besides Sonic weren't going to be in the demo, so Snake was obviously not expected. As for Kirby, I would think that they might be still working on his character (hats, etc.), which might be the case for the other characters who weren't available in the demo.
Or maybe Sakurai is just a **** and wants to torture us.
In any case, the whole point of the delay was to smooth out the game. That's probably what they're doing. And I don't know why people still think Sakurai won't reveal all of the characters--even the hidden ones. He said himself that he wasn't going to get hopped up on people seeing characters they haven't unlocked yet.
Or maybe Sakurai is just a **** and wants to torture us.
In any case, the whole point of the delay was to smooth out the game. That's probably what they're doing. And I don't know why people still think Sakurai won't reveal all of the characters--even the hidden ones. He said himself that he wasn't going to get hopped up on people seeing characters they haven't unlocked yet.
Solharath
[ZTD] CEO
Obviously, today's update seems like Sakurai is apologizing for last week. I mean, BOSLEY, how awesome is that?[/sarcasm]
I think SamuraiPanda's week ratings will continue to plummet unless we get some nice new updates. I know it's only Monday, but if Sakurai resorted to Bosley of all things... Not the best way to start the week, and now I can only expect an item update.
Also, when should we send in applications for Episode 25? Or will there be one, considering it should be December 23, and as recalled, Youko will not be around to do the podcast during(what would be) that week.
Also, I have a personal question to Youko, as he seemed to have completely disappeared from the MSN world, and I was wondering when he's gonna be back on there. You're a cool guy to discuss Smash with.
I think SamuraiPanda's week ratings will continue to plummet unless we get some nice new updates. I know it's only Monday, but if Sakurai resorted to Bosley of all things... Not the best way to start the week, and now I can only expect an item update.
Also, when should we send in applications for Episode 25? Or will there be one, considering it should be December 23, and as recalled, Youko will not be around to do the podcast during(what would be) that week.
Also, I have a personal question to Youko, as he seemed to have completely disappeared from the MSN world, and I was wondering when he's gonna be back on there. You're a cool guy to discuss Smash with.
Youko
Podcasting Pro
Bosley is a character from Charlie's Angels and a hair restoration treatment. BONSLY is the update we got for today.
If you've already put in application for trials, as you have SuperTH, then you don't need to reapply.
I'll probably be on MSN when I have time, but during finals week, that's pretty tough to come by...
If you've already put in application for trials, as you have SuperTH, then you don't need to reapply.
I'll probably be on MSN when I have time, but during finals week, that's pretty tough to come by...
Phaazoid
Basket
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2006
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- 7,719
- Location
- Mr. Sakurai's wild ride
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- 4854-6444-0859
wow, great podcast.
i thought of an insane boss idea. what if you have to fight the halberd? think about it. you're on it, and the cannons or whatever are shooting at you. you have to break them all. (lazer turret, missile silo, rocket launcher, whatever) of course, you would fight it as meta-knight, as its being used against you. how do i know he's a good guy? or at least against his ship and the primid?
well, if this is meta-knight fighting the primid, which his ship spawn, then i don't he's a bad guy.
as for the conspiracy theoracy, i think it actually makes sense. except for one point. what about characters you don't unlock through the emissary? how do they partake in it if you don't unlock them through it? although this would help with characters like Game and Watch who have less story line to go by. but Dedede? a bit of a stretch... but who knows? conspirator's theories can usually only be speculated until either proven or not proven. because disproven isn't a word.
oh, and i think i have a good idea for a viewpoint, might send it in.
i thought of an insane boss idea. what if you have to fight the halberd? think about it. you're on it, and the cannons or whatever are shooting at you. you have to break them all. (lazer turret, missile silo, rocket launcher, whatever) of course, you would fight it as meta-knight, as its being used against you. how do i know he's a good guy? or at least against his ship and the primid?
well, if this is meta-knight fighting the primid, which his ship spawn, then i don't he's a bad guy.
as for the conspiracy theoracy, i think it actually makes sense. except for one point. what about characters you don't unlock through the emissary? how do they partake in it if you don't unlock them through it? although this would help with characters like Game and Watch who have less story line to go by. but Dedede? a bit of a stretch... but who knows? conspirator's theories can usually only be speculated until either proven or not proven. because disproven isn't a word.
oh, and i think i have a good idea for a viewpoint, might send it in.
Phaazoid
Basket
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- Aug 29, 2006
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- Mr. Sakurai's wild ride
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- 4854-6444-0859
sorry, please ignore...
Chiroz
Tier Lists? Foolish...
Heard 23, loved it.
BTW, I know this is kinda random and not important, but about the event records, whats the world record on Event 35: Time for a checkup. I did in 6.52 seconds and was wondering if that was any faster than the record.
BTW, I know this is kinda random and not important, but about the event records, whats the world record on Event 35: Time for a checkup. I did in 6.52 seconds and was wondering if that was any faster than the record.
Blubba_Pinecone
Smash Ace
Dear lord... has anyone else been having a horrible time trying to get on the Smash Boards lately or is it just me? Tons of unresponsive server messages.
Just this minute got to start listening, so I'll put some input later mayhaps.
You know what Bosley reminds me of? Mr. Saturn on steroids! Yes, get that image in your head. Mr. Saturn. On. Steroids. =P lol
Just this minute got to start listening, so I'll put some input later mayhaps.
You know what Bosley reminds me of? Mr. Saturn on steroids! Yes, get that image in your head. Mr. Saturn. On. Steroids. =P lol
Bli33ard
Smash Journeyman
Oh noes! Your sig = Mic beastiality!
But aside from that, I don't know the official[unofficial] source for Smash times/records, etc.
It's McFox tugging on the SWF server cords again.
Cless
Smash Champion
It's Bonsly people. Ugh, this is gonna be some kind of new meme.
Meta-Knight isn't evil so I doubt he'd side with the primid and try and take over the world, unless it was for some funny reason like in Kirby Superstar.
Meta-Knight isn't evil so I doubt he'd side with the primid and try and take over the world, unless it was for some funny reason like in Kirby Superstar.
Yaya
Smash Champion
Has Panda decided on a thread closer yet?
That has to be the burning question among the Smash Community, not what character's are in.
But this. Has Panda decided on a thread closer yet?
That has to be the burning question among the Smash Community, not what character's are in.
But this. Has Panda decided on a thread closer yet?
Blubba_Pinecone
Smash Ace
Ah yes. The same way my extremidies fail to coorperate with my nervous system when my Chordae Tendineae fail to work properly. Of course of course.It's McFox tugging on the SWF server cords again.
Yes, I did feel like using fancy words on purpose right there. =]
I'll have to wait till later to review the podcast; my dad is home.
Firebert
Smash Ace
Three DK? Who's the third?