Show me your moves - Captain Falcon video thread

[Searing_Sorrow]

Both, I know Dobbleganger started to go falcon more, z and Christen wanting to learn the character as well as Kudrah, Smur, and cloud9. It is also why everyone's punish game vs him is getting stronger, shoot I even found some dirty stuff yesterday. I will admit, falcon is fun as "explicit", but there are a lot of necessary fundamentals to know before picking him up competitively.

The hard part is falcon is oddly a fragile cannon if your d.I and shffl is not already on point, and its not like there is a fatality download in the next patch to help learn the character. I swear if there was half this much interest in Diddy Kong down here I would have cultivated a super Xanadu, instead I just see some created tech being used 4 months later.

 

[-Fatality-]

Both, I know Dobbleganger started to go falcon more, z and Christen wanting to learn the character as well as Kudrah, Smur, and cloud9. It is also why everyone's punish game vs him is getting stronger, shoot I even found some dirty stuff yesterday. I will admit, falcon is fun as "explicit", but there are a lot of necessary fundamentals to know before picking him up competitively.

The hard part is falcon is oddly a fragile cannon if your d.I and shffl is not already on point, and its not like there is a fatality download in the next patch to help learn the character. I swear if there was half this much interest in Diddy Kong down here I would have cultivated a super Xanadu, instead I just see some created tech being used 4 months later.

..... Oh no, what have I done?

 

[DMG]

You apparently stopped another Diddy-MDVA from happening!

 

[-Fatality-]

You apparently stopped another Diddy-MDVA from happening!

I guess it's better to be over-saturated with Falcons than Diddies, Georgia will certainly have a very manly metagame lol.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Curses. But... my recreation of MVDA would have had a combo game... Then again how can you say no to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3swylpHp8gs

 

[Steel Banana]

Here are 2 more videos of me losing. I placed pretty high in the tournaments though, and both of these guys are excellent players.

Vs. Disafter (DK + Falco)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agAOhg_4bGo

Vs. CalmAnimal (Bowser)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7btecGQ3Fs

This is one of the first DKs I've ever fought and so it took me some time to adjust, but I think I got the hang of it game 2. I took a lot of advice on the Falco matchup and it turned out really well. I feel like I lost to the player instead of the character this time. I still would like some advice though, since I felt really lost sometimes in neutral.

The Bowser game, however, I feel like I lost to myself as well as my opponent. I was playing worse than I have in a long time and CalmAnimal was playing completely on point. I feel like Falcon easily wins this matchup but its so volatile that one mistake leads to death for Falcon. I also missed a lot of opportunities and SDd once per game :[

Any advice? I feel like I'm making a lot of progress and just need a few more things to be a real threat.

 

[DMG]

I think you did fine vs Falco, although you dropped probably 90% of tech chase opportunities. You really have to make most of those count against the better characters, cause you won't always have a good opportunity to land the initial hits.

I'll watch the Bowser one in a sec but a few things I noticed:

Edge

Spoiler

Your edgeplay is a bit weak. As in, I can generally see a pattern on "when" you decide to do an option after grabbing the edge, and unless it's for edgeguards I don't see you drop off the edge much. There were times where you could benefit from an edge drop --> regrab, or a waveland onstage instead of a traditional option, and I would definitely practice those in pressure situations. A lot of people can do edgeplay very well practicing by themselves, but goof it up once someone else is playing and is close by. If you get confident in those other options, even when a DK is Dtilt scraping the edge or when Falco is onstage, you'll open your gameplay a lot and not be so limited on the edge (which could be bad for Falcon)

DK

Spoiler

For DK at least, if he's on a platform above you or if he's jumping up much higher, you want to maintain that positional advantage. A lot of times, I would see where either Disafter would jump off a lower platform to escape pressure, and you were DDing back towards mainstage. Some of your DD's are letting off pressure for the opponent when they are airborne by a decent margin. You can threaten a lot of characters, even super Dair Falco, with Uairs if they are trying to go vertical to escape you. Not with immediate chasing, but by jumping onto the platform once they use their DJ for example. Keep them uncomfortable within your sights.


Also, Side B from the stage to grab the edge isn't usually that great against DK, because the strongest mixup DK has is to go above the edge and aim for somewhere onstage OR drop onto the edge from above with some weaving. Grabbing the edge usually only takes care of lower recovery choices, or stage-height choices. Stomp from onstage already covers DK pretty well if he goes lower, and you won't need invincibility for that, so I'd stick to being onstage until it's clear where he's going to Upb.

Edit: watching some of Bowser match. Side B to grab the edge again is not that great vs Bowser, couple of times he sees you do this and he just goes above + onstage. Don't commit to that option so much if the characters can afford to go onstage and eat some punishment, over fear that going low leads to death.


Edit 2: What was the stage list for that event? GHZ is a stage I would likely strike 100% of the time against Bowser, unless I somehow still had WW/tiny stages left? That was not a good first stage to go to

Bowser

Spoiler

Less Nair, more grab as your initial approach. DD into grab is good and can bait out a response from Bowser. Tighter DD spacing is needed: he whiffed many times when you baited him, but you were too far back on the DD to punish him. Mixup straight forward JC grabs, with DD, and now he has to guess when you will grab and how to properly react. Beating other Falcon approaches is easier: he can trade or beat aerials with Upb and Fair, shield grab a couple of misspaced ones, etc. IF you are approaching with an aerial, assume he will possibly CC or shield it and go for flying stomps/knees. That's about as safe as you can be: Nair only works well if they cannot CC or shield, and running SH Uair can lose to Upb OOS if they have tight timing

Under 60% or so, you can use Uthrow and lead into Knee, but past that % I would Dthrow more and hope for Knee or running Uair chain. Bowser is pretty floaty, so Uthrow loses effectiveness much quicker on him than other Heavies out there.

 

[Steel Banana]

I think you did fine vs Falco, although you dropped probably 90% of tech chase opportunities. You really have to make most of those count against the better characters, cause you won't always have a good opportunity to land the initial hits.

I'll watch the Bowser one in a sec but a few things I noticed:

Edge

Spoiler

Your edgeplay is a bit weak. As in, I can generally see a pattern on "when" you decide to do an option after grabbing the edge, and unless it's for edgeguards I don't see you drop off the edge much. There were times where you could benefit from an edge drop --> regrab, or a waveland onstage instead of a traditional option, and I would definitely practice those in pressure situations. A lot of people can do edgeplay very well practicing by themselves, but goof it up once someone else is playing and is close by. If you get confident in those other options, even when a DK is Dtilt scraping the edge or when Falco is onstage, you'll open your gameplay a lot and not be so limited on the edge (which could be bad for Falcon)

DK

Spoiler

For DK at least, if he's on a platform above you or if he's jumping up much higher, you want to maintain that positional advantage. A lot of times, I would see where either Disafter would jump off a lower platform to escape pressure, and you were DDing back towards mainstage. Some of your DD's are letting off pressure for the opponent when they are airborne by a decent margin. You can threaten a lot of characters, even super Dair Falco, with Uairs if they are trying to go vertical to escape you. Not with immediate chasing, but by jumping onto the platform once they use their DJ for example. Keep them uncomfortable within your sights.


Also, Side B from the stage to grab the edge isn't usually that great against DK, because the strongest mixup DK has is to go above the edge and aim for somewhere onstage OR drop onto the edge from above with some weaving. Grabbing the edge usually only takes care of lower recovery choices, or stage-height choices. Stomp from onstage already covers DK pretty well if he goes lower, and you won't need invincibility for that, so I'd stick to being onstage until it's clear where he's going to Upb.

Edit: watching some of Bowser match. Side B to grab the edge again is not that great vs Bowser, couple of times he sees you do this and he just goes above + onstage. Don't commit to that option so much if the characters can afford to go onstage and eat some punishment, over fear that going low leads to death.


Edit 2: What was the stage list for that event? GHZ is a stage I would likely strike 100% of the time against Bowser, unless I somehow still had WW/tiny stages left? That was not a good first stage to go to

Bowser

Spoiler

Less Nair, more grab as your initial approach. DD into grab is good and can bait out a response from Bowser. Tighter DD spacing is needed: he whiffed many times when you baited him, but you were too far back on the DD to punish him. Mixup straight forward JC grabs, with DD, and now he has to guess when you will grab and how to properly react. Beating other Falcon approaches is easier: he can trade or beat aerials with Upb and Fair, shield grab a couple of misspaced ones, etc. IF you are approaching with an aerial, assume he will possibly CC or shield it and go for flying stomps/knees. That's about as safe as you can be: Nair only works well if they cannot CC or shield, and running SH Uair can lose to Upb OOS if they have tight timing

Under 60% or so, you can use Uthrow and lead into Knee, but past that % I would Dthrow more and hope for Knee or running Uair chain. Bowser is pretty floaty, so Uthrow loses effectiveness much quicker on him than other Heavies out there.

DMG, you're the best! You always seem to find things that I had no idea were even issues.

Now that you point it out, my edgeplay is definitely lacking (especially since I still can't reliably nair from the ledge, since the inputs just feel weird), and I wouldn't have noticed that at all. I've actually gotten perfect waveland from the ledge down pretty well even in tournament settings, I just never know when it's a good idea since I get punished for it sometimes by getting hit before my shield or roll can come out. I also didn't know there was much use for ledge drop -> regrab when the opponent is on stage, but I guess a little invincibility couldn't hurt, lol.

I never know when to challenge Falco when he's in the air since his dair just seems to destroy everything. Does using an uair to trade with it (after he uses his double jump) actually put me in an advantageous position? It seems really scary to try to challenge someone who prefers the air in his home turf.

I never thought about the fact that grabbing the ledge limited my edgeguarding options so much. I guess that's always been my go-to maneuver when an opponent is offstage. Honestly, this brings up the biggest problem I have: autopilot. I really need to find some way to remove autopilot entirely and always be thinking on my feet.

About the stage choice for GHZ, the starters are Battlefield, PS2, GHZ, Smashville, and Dreamland. I personally am not a fan of Smashville ever and he always bans PS2. I know Battlefield is one of Bowser's best stages (although I've 3 stocked CalmAnimal 2 games in a row here in a previous tourney) and I used to do pretty well against him on GHZ because of the close side blast zones. I don't know about Dreamland though, it always seems scary to allow Bowser to live any longer than necessary. I've always been told to ban all the small, 3-platform stages against Bowser, but maybe that doesn't apply to Falcon? How would you rank the starter stages for this matchup?

The stagelist in DFW really favors small stages (although less than it used to), which kinda sucks for me. It's usually the same as Big House 4, so it's the starters I mentioned earlier and Counterpicks:

• Wario Ware
• Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
• Skyworld
• FD
• Lylat
• Fountain of Dreams

With 2 bans. So I always ban FoD and WW against Bowser (and most other characters ), meaning I have no choice but to go to Battlefield or GHZ. I honestly think we have way too many stages for only 2 bans, but oh well. I tend to overthink stage choice sometimes and pick a suboptimal stage by weighting some less important things (like closeness of side blastzones) over the more important ones (like freedom of movement).

Seriously though, thanks so much for the advice. It's really helping me turn my Falcon into the real people's champ!

 

[DMG]

Dreamland is a fine choice, because even though Bowser can live forever, you can mitigate that advantage by throwing or knocking him offstage and putting him into terrible spots. If Bowser lives to 170%, but couldn't get back to the stage safely after a 60% knee, then it doesn't matter as much. The extra room allows you to fight Bowser more on your terms, and is preferable to many stages. Dreamland is usually a ban for Bowser in many MU's because he has to go through the hassle of approaching or dealing with faster characters/projectiles with that much room. He's too slow to use the platforms for maneuvering, and the blast zones go against any quick "easy" kills for him. Meanwhile, he might die to a meteor or aggressive edgeguard offstage despite otherwise living for awhile.


Starters strikes:

Spoiler

Bowser would strike PS2 and Dreamland 100% of the time, unless you strike Dreamland for him

Falcon would strike GHZ 100% of the time, with BF and SV coming down to preference

The 3 stages that should never happen are GHZ, PS2, and Dreamland. Your advantages on PS2 and Dreamland are arguably much stronger than his on GHZ, so keep Dreamland and PS2 open to force his bans/strikes. I would figure out based on his prior matches and based on your exp whether you prefer BF or SV in the MU, and strike the other stages. If he somehow allows Dreamland or PS2, then by all means allow them always.


Stage bans:

Bowser would ban Dreamland and whatever stage makes sense vs his opponent. FD might be worse against Mario or Diddy, Skyworld might be worse against someone else, Lylat might be bad vs someone who abuses the platforms, etc. My guess is that he would ban Dreamland and FD or PS2, since not many players actively CP with Lylat or Skyworld. If he left Dreamland or PS2 open, that should have been your CP, and if not, I'm not sure why you would go to SV if you dislike it as something better like FD was probably open.

Small stage size is generally a huge boon for Bowser, and boundaries matter less for Falcon v Bowser than stage size. You can't ban out all of Bowser's "good" stages, since he usually has 3 for any MU, however you can almost always avoid a Game 1 on a dominant Bowser stage since starters are usually not that stacked in his favor. Avoid GHZ next time, and even if you can't ban GHZ after banning "harder" stages, you force him to use a CP on it instead of getting it on the most crucial game of the set.



Platform Pressure

Spoiler

Also, for Falco (and others) it's not necessarily about trying to beat or trade with his Dair when he's really high in the air, but putting pressure on the opponent with the threat of that Uair. Even if his Dair usually wins, by making the threat seem legitimate, you force them to consider how they land and whether they need to use a move to defend themselves before they land. Once Falco DJ's or goes really high, he's really limited on how far he can drift left or right. To "follow" his likely landing spot, or use 1 jump to gain a bit of height, he has some scenarios to consider and some pressure to deal with. Keeping that up is generally more important than some of your DD spacings: when someone is limited in mobility in the air and you can get under them, generally you want to maintain that instead of break somewhere into DD and space with that tool. DK for example is not very good at getting down from juggles, so if he tries to escape from platform pressure by jumping off the platform, keep below him or jump up to the platform while still staying below him etc

 

[Deleted member]

Going to OZ today, I'm going to try to get on stream twice like I did last time.

I'll edit this post if I get videos.

EDIT: No videos

 

[DMG]

I plan on going back to maining Falcon for 3.5 with the reductions in other character's (sometimes absurd) power levels. I look forward to outputting some vids with my trips to DFW!

 

[-Fatality-]

I plan on going back to maining Falcon for 3.5 with the reductions in other character's (sometimes absurd) power levels. I look forward to outputting some vids with my trips to DFW!

 

[BananaBolts]

I know it's a bit too soon to ask this but... can I see some 3.5 Falcon play?
I'd really like to see him in action with his new dash, Falcon kick, grab game, etc.

 

[DMG]

I might have some vs my local scene, but they are pretty young/inexperienced and are just now starting to record (plus they rotate between Melee and PM each week for our tourneys/gatherings).

 

[Ace55]

Don't think I'll ever sort out the OP but I do have a ton of PM Falcon vids from this weekend.

S1-14 vs Jules (IC)
S1-14 vs Skippo(Kirby)
Rebaz vs Dave (Doc)
Rebaz vs Ace (Wario)
LLL Jeapie vs Ace (Wario/Zard)
LLL Jeapie vs Rebaz pt1
LLL Jeapie vs Rebaz pt2

 

[DMG]

Jeapie plays PM? Now this I did not know, nice

 

[Ace55]

Jeapie plays PM? Now this I did not know, nice

He typically doesn't play Falcon in PM, and he doesn't play it much, but he likes it.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Sup, I suck at edgeguarding. How do I edgeguard good?

Vs. Emo (Fox)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIkqQKzxRLk

 

[DMG]

Best way I would describe it, is imagining the space offstage, and where you will typically be located before picking an option (near the edge is most likely), as a complete circle. Where you stand is on the fringe of one side of the circle, and the space offstage can form the rest of it. If you think about their positioning, and correlate an option or move to that positioning, you'll cover the person's options better. Also, you have to consider how easily they can evade any aggressive chasing: I'd venture 30% of the failed edgeguards were due to missing an attempt because you underestimated how far he could drift/FF, or you attacked without enough running momentum and had to recover back etc.


For example, you're at the edge, and the opponent has to use Firefox from below stage height. Let's also assume that he's a decent distance out, but close enough where he can angle the Upb onstage barely and land onstage. If you were to draw a circle, you would be on the fringe of one side, offstage somewhere but at ledge/standing height would be the other edge of the circle, and the Fox would be diagonally below you probably inside the circle barrier a bit.


The best choice for this situation could be a Knee right near the edge/below it, or Utilt covering somewhere near the edge. Stomp might not be as good if you have to go low for it, might work the same as Knee or Utilt if you have good timing and use it with a double jump to rise with the hitbox. Fox player might be able to meteor, so again it might stick out as a lesser option. A running weak knee dropped fairly low might work due to his very limited angle choices, but might entail more risk than you actually need to take.


Now say that instead, he's in a less limited position slightly above stage where Side B can easily reach onstage, where he could drop down a bit and sweetspot with Side B, etc. He has a ton of options here, and if you misread with an offstage edgeguard, you could possibly legit die when he gets back and has you offstage. Since his position in the circle can change, and the proper response needed can change, you focus on keeping a good position that might allow you to "switch" responses quickly. A good choice would be to be near the edge, maybe at a distance where you can WD back to grab the edge or at least where Utilt covers it with the tip. You might have killed him with an aggressive choice, but since you don't always know where or when a person will start their choice, moving towards them when they have options is usually risky. Keeping a good position while you wait them out, even if you don't wait for the entire duration, will probably work better because chances are that they start to lose options and flexibility the longer they sit offstage. Fox will keep falling, he can't continue to DJ more, etc.


TL:DR

If a person has a lot of options, or the ability to adjust their offstage positioning quite a bit before being "forced" to choose an option, the best responses are usually waiting or covering the edge. If a person is more limited, either barely escaping hitstun by the time you arrive offstage (You Knee Fox at 40% and run balls deep to knee him again) or getting a nasty knockback angle, then aggressive edgeguards can work better. For Fox specifically, your biggest threat is guessing wrong on his Side B by going offstage, and then dying to his own edgeguard.

 

[Garr]

@ -Fatality- ?

It's Kudrah. Changed my tag, but this is like, the first time I went into the Falcon discussion. I used to exclusively stay in the Yoshi discussion, but I went all over the place recently, mostly in Mewtwo's, Fox's, and of course, Falcon . Been in the lab with all these characters, and Falcon's just so much fun to use that I gotta get better with him.

Next time I'm on stream for some event and I pick Falcon, I'll send it to you if you're willing to critique and whatnot. My punish game has been more consistent, which is saying something since Falcon combos are not as easy as they look. I didn't know that Uair into knee was only doable if you hit them with the innermost hitbox, but now I do. Personally, I like using him against semi-floaters and mid-weights. Not really sure how it'll turn out, but at least I can style hard and moonwalk like a cool kid and overall just have fun.

See ya in January. I'm looking into going to the next tourney you guys have there.

 

[-Fatality-]

First 3.5 footage of me, Grand Finals against the first High-level fox I've ever played in PM, so I could use a lot of help in this matchup Hit me with your harshest, realest criticism!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTPGA5pzW-w&list=UUjI60POez1Z6M9XhTdJ7XlQ

 

[DMG]

inb4 u edit post to include the video

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Harshest criticism, the lack of video being edited in shows a lack of patience and not properly thinking out your next plan of attack. Joking aside, won't make it tomorrow to the tourney, got work. Which kind of kills the other 3 e.s people from coming as well .

 

[DMG]

First 3.5 footage of me, Grand Finals against the first High-level fox I've ever played in PM, so I could use a lot of help in this matchup Hit me with your harshest, realest criticism!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTPGA5pzW-w&list=UUjI60POez1Z6M9XhTdJ7XlQ

I'm about 13 min in, and I'd say the 2 biggest things you messed up were traditional edgeguards and really low % tech chasing (which is quite weird on Fox in all fairness). There were some more minor things I can think of, but I'll probably address those in 1 rambling block of text.

Edit: adding more into the blocks as I see more of the vid, prob 3/4ths in now

Edit#2: Played much better in second set. Called out missed techs with Usmash (way better than the delayed knee stuff), WD in place was used smarter when their option to roll away was limited by stage/edge space, etc.

Edgeguarding:

Spoiler

You got at least 1-2 very nice footstools, but you dropped quite a few fairly easy edgeguards in the first couple of games that I've watched so far. For whatever reason, I see you sometimes position yourself way higher than Fox while he recovers, and that's generally only useful if you also go offstage with an attack that you want to FF into his body. You don't gain anything good in those spots (onstage, hgiher up if they are below you) compared to Utilt or near the edge Dair/Knee/etc. Dropping edgeguards to his side b is OK, will happen probably 1-2 times a set without much you can do so I don't blame you much for those, but I guess I would just be less twitchy with your movement as they recover and stand near the edge if you have not committed to an option like flying weak knee offstage.

Tech chasing:

Spoiler

The biggest problem I saw was your tendency to use wavedash during very low % situations. Also, usually wavedash in place and not in a direction. I think this is usually incorrect usage of wavedash for characters that scrape the ground early in your Dthrow, because it just grants you so much lag. Especially to do it in place? I think that makes things unnecessarily hard for you: if you're going to stick to that option, I'd prefer you slide the wavedash towards them, not neutrally in place. The thing about spacies or heavies like DK that might reach the ground very quick after Dthrow, is that you generally do not have much time to punish. Wavedashing cuts into that heavily (literally would take Falcon like 20 frames or so to jump and then have his wavedash end, and I think stand up techs take 25 frames to complete. Just as a comparison), so I think it's counter productive for "intensive" tech chases. At the very least, slide forward with those WD's so that you make the most of the maneuver and get closer for a grab or cover more distance if they tech roll/roll away. That was definitely your worst habit for tech chases, and I can't count the number of dash grabs you missed afterwards that would have been guaranteed if you had those wavedash frames back freely.


Second issue I think would be your punishes for missed techs at low %. I think you should commit earlier if you even have a slight hunch that they will fail the tech, because you had a couple good opportunities and you generally did the exact same delayed option: wait like 1.5 seconds while they are on the floor and then try to SH Knee. Situations like that pop up, so I guess it's the fact that you chose to do that option at nearly the same timings each time that I would vary. If they are on their back from the missed tech, trying to SH aerial directly at them is probably the worst choice since they can activate invincibility on command. I would have tried it once, then maybe baited out the get up attack or the roll with an empty SH/dash at him. Technically you could also just be a bum, stand outside of get up attack range, and wait out their choices too. I would have tried one of those as a mixup, instead of the straight forward choice of knee each time. Usmash worked sometimes, sometimes not. I probably wouldn't use it as much, because people can do lame things to the first hit like CC down + tech and then punish? Maybe it's better from Melee but I remember that being a huge disappointment.

Minor:

Spoiler

I think some of the Fsmash usage out of Uthrow might have been better replaced with knees, if it's situations where the Fsmash probably won't kill or send them to the very edge. Main reason is for the knockback angle (which Spacies prefer, lets them live longer for how fast they fall), since alternatively not too many people would risk trying to DI down for a tech if they assume it would be knee (they would also probably want to DI up for the Knee unless they were super aware and believed they could DI downish for a tech) and end up dying if they can't scrape a platform or the ground. You might have had some better edgeguard opportunities, and some of those Fsmashes might have been Knees that get funked up and turn into Fsmash after quick throws, definitely happens to everyone. I consider it minor cause you still land a very punishing hit, and it's not a bad choice at all. Maybe not optimal if it won't kill or if they are closer to the edge and can't DI down/tech Knee angles? Just my thought

Didn't waveland much onstage from the edge, which is pretty legit and super useful. Get's harder to do successfully in tournament vs high pressure chars, but I'd get fluent in that under pressure as it's immensely useful. I've seen you use it before too, so might just be this set that lacks enough of it.

 

[-Fatality-]

I'm about 13 min in, and I'd say the 2 biggest things you messed up were traditional edgeguards and really low % tech chasing (which is quite weird on Fox in all fairness). There were some more minor things I can think of, but I'll probably address those in 1 rambling block of text.


Edgeguarding:

Spoiler

You got at least 1-2 very nice footstools, but you dropped quite a few fairly easy edgeguards in the first couple of games that I've watched so far. For whatever reason, I see you sometimes position yourself way higher than Fox while he recovers, and that's generally only useful if you also go offstage with an attack that you want to FF into his body. You don't gain anything good in those spots (onstage, hgiher up if they are below you) compared to Utilt or near the edge Dair/Knee/etc. Dropping edgeguards to his side b is OK, will happen probably 1-2 times a set without much you can do so I don't blame you much for those, but I guess I would just be less twitchy with your movement as they recover and stand near the edge if you have not committed to an option like flying weak knee offstage.

Tech chasing:

Spoiler

The biggest problem I saw was your tendency to use wavedash during very low % situations. Also, usually wavedash in place and not in a direction. I think this is usually incorrect usage of wavedash for characters that scrape the ground early in your Dthrow, because it just grants you so much lag. Especially to do it in place? I think that makes things unnecessarily hard for you: if you're going to stick to that option, I'd prefer you slide the wavedash towards them, not neutrally in place. The thing about spacies or heavies like DK that might reach the ground very quick after Dthrow, is that you generally do not have much time to punish. Wavedashing cuts into that heavily (literally would take Falcon like 20 frames or so to jump and then have his wavedash end, and I think stand up techs take 25 frames to complete. Just as a comparison), so I think it's counter productive for "intensive" tech chases. At the very least, slide forward with those WD's so that you make the most of the maneuver and get closer for a grab or cover more distance if they tech roll/roll away. That was definitely your worst habit for tech chases, and I can't count the number of dash grabs you missed afterwards that would have been guaranteed if you had those wavedash frames back freely.


Second issue I think would be your punishes for missed techs at low %. I think you should commit earlier if you even have a slight hunch that they will fail the tech, because you had a couple good opportunities and you generally did the exact same delayed option: wait like 1.5 seconds while they are on the floor and then try to SH Knee. Situations like that pop up, so I guess it's the fact that you chose to do that option at nearly the same timings each time that I would vary. If they are on their back from the missed tech, trying to SH aerial directly at them is probably the worst choice since they can activate invincibility on command. I would have tried it once, then maybe baited out the get up attack or the roll with an empty SH/dash at him. Technically you could also just be a bum, stand outside of get up attack range, and wait out their choices too. I would have tried one of those as a mixup, instead of the straight forward choice of knee each time.

Minor:

Spoiler

I think some of the Fsmash usage out of Uthrow might have been better replaced with knees, if it's situations where the Fsmash probably won't kill or send them to the very edge. Main reason is for the knockback angle (which Spacies prefer, lets them live longer for how fast they fall), since alternatively not too many people would risk trying to DI down for a tech if they assume it would be knee (they would also probably want to DI up for the Knee unless they were super aware and believed they could DI downish for a tech) and end up dying if they can't scrape a platform or the ground. You might have had some better edgeguard opportunities, and some of those Fsmashes might have been Knees that get funked up and turn into Fsmash after quick throws, definitely happens to everyone. I consider it minor cause you still land a very punishing hit, and it's not a bad choice at all. Maybe not optimal if it won't kill or if they are closer to the edge and can't DI down/tech Knee angles? Just my thought

Didn't waveland much onstage from the edge, which is pretty legit and super useful. Get's harder to do successfully in tournament vs high pressure chars, but I'd get fluent in that under pressure as it's immensely useful. I've seen you use it before too, so might just be this set that lacks enough of it.

Good stuff, was my first time playing PM in like a month, so I was definitely having some weird inputs, like F-smash instead of Fair, but as you pointed out, Knee is simply the more optimal option, so I'll definitely make sure not to get rusty again!
I'm honestly most concerned about the neutral game in this matchup, as I'm generally good at punishing anyone, but I'm worried that some of the ways I tried to control space and escape pressure may have been bad, did anything there stick out to you? I want to get as good as possible at this matchup before Paragon next month, which will have Leffen, Colbol, and Zero for me to deal with.

 

[DMG]

Lack of wavelanding onstage, and some of the situations where you were recovering offstage and used Uair to cover yourself are probably all I can think of. Top Fox players generally make it redundant to do anything but strictly recover, so I'd be careful trying to Uair or use any aerial as you recover, especially if that means you can't sweetspot the edge normally after or with a DJ. You got lucky 2-3 times when you tried it vs Roy, cause you had to Upb afterwards when it missed and grabbing the edge + shine or Bair would have been that stock. I can guarantee everyone you listed would be more likely to spot stuff like that and kill you for it, so be careful.

The other stuff I can think about is trying to come up with a defensive choice that might work if you get stuck in shield and don't see a "normal" way out. Stuff like purposefully eating the drill or the shine (to accomplish this, usually means jumping OOS, not dropping shield), but using good SDI to throw them off for example. Or dropping shield and holding down for CC/ASDI down if they are using Nair for pressure. If you need to buffer roll out, best time to do it iirc is after they shine and you're fairly positive they aren't going to waveshine (since if they don't waveshine, chances are they will be stuck doing their next aerial or empty hop) and that probably gives you the most time to get out. Alternatively, if they Nair very low to the ground on your shield, immediately buffer roll away. This doesn't work as well obv if they read it, or have the experience to mixup shield pressure and shine choices very well, so past that point it's basically good luck imo.

Other thing I can think of, is if you are onstage and they shine you across the stage, trying to put you offstage, I think there's a direction or a thing you can do to not slide as far offstage and to slip onto the edge reliably. It's been forever since I've dealt with that though, and I might be mistaking shine for another troublesome move or situation, but I'd look into that if they try to cheese you with that choice or you get pressured at the edge.

 

[SupremoRemo]

I got wrecked by MD/VA's Boss's spacies (Smash@Xanadu)...I can see a lot of places I messed up--crazy the way you think when you're gettin bopped with that pressure. But I'd like to hear what you all have to say!

Check it out here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHuomEUy_WE

 

[DMG]

If you are far enough away, say DI away from whatever hit you, teching in place is probably stronger than tech rolls against the fast characters. It's the fastest option, and Falcon's tech rolls are some of the worst in the game. Obviously, you don't want to be predictable and do it *every* time, but the majority of your techs looked like rolls. 85% of the time, he just reacted to it and still hit you or put massive pressure on you. Generally more brutal against Fox and other fast chars, but getting used to doing it in clutch spots will let you also punish some Falco Dairs that are used in full hops, or coming down from a higher trajectory. Couple of great spots where if you teched the Dair in place, you would have time to grab or possibly Knee Boss before he got to touch the ground, as opposed to missing the tech or tech rolling away.

Getting back onstage from the edge is also huge vs Spacies, you didn't waveland on very much. It's almost mandatory vs great players like that. You are already in a bad spot with a semi-limited ledge character, so you need to take advantage of that the best you can.

SH Uair can be very useful as a suppressing/trading tool when they come in with the approach. Doesn't help much vs patient Falco lasers, but it's probably the most useful aerial if you don't have the time to space Nairs (Fox has more leniency since he doesn't have stoppage lasers, Falco you use it OOS or while doing a running SH in close quarters)

 

[SupremoRemo]

If you are far enough away, say DI away from whatever hit you, teching in place is probably stronger than tech rolls against the fast characters. It's the fastest option, and Falcon's tech rolls are some of the worst in the game. Obviously, you don't want to be predictable and do it *every* time, but the majority of your techs looked like rolls. 85% of the time, he just reacted to it and still hit you or put massive pressure on you. Generally more brutal against Fox and other fast chars, but getting used to doing it in clutch spots will let you also punish some Falco Dairs that are used in full hops, or coming down from a higher trajectory. Couple of great spots where if you teched the Dair in place, you would have time to grab or possibly Knee Boss before he got to touch the ground, as opposed to missing the tech or tech rolling away.

Getting back onstage from the edge is also huge vs Spacies, you didn't waveland on very much. It's almost mandatory vs great players like that. You are already in a bad spot with a semi-limited ledge character, so you need to take advantage of that the best you can.

SH Uair can be very useful as a suppressing/trading tool when they come in with the approach. Doesn't help much vs patient Falco lasers, but it's probably the most useful aerial if you don't have the time to space Nairs (Fox has more leniency since he doesn't have stoppage lasers, Falco you use it OOS or while doing a running SH in close quarters)

Appreciate this a lot!

Will keep every bit of this information in mind in future matches against spacies. Thanks!

 

[Leirkov]

http://www.twitch.tv/long_island_smash/b/601422960?t=56m55s

Looking for critique. Posted my Ike games in the Ike video thread, and I felt the Ike switch off was my big mistake, but I also feel Falcon is slowly overtaking Lucario as my comfort secondary.

Some things I could already pick up was that I got really hungry game 5 for knees and stomps that I wasn't going for prior..and uair probably would have covered everything. I also tech flub a lot, my dash attacks were all c-sticked uairs that I never pressed jumped for, and my usmashes were the same thing. But aside from that I saw pretty lackluster neutral and bad option coverage/choices.

 

[Steel Banana]

So this was my first streamed match in a while, and I'm looking for some constructive criticism that I can think about during my 3 week smash break ( leaving the country, so I can't even practice D: )

Youngblood vs. Hamyojo (Yoshi): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dWj_Wa9i9A

Hamyojo mostly plays melee, so I used Falcon kick a lot more than I usually would just to throw him off and discourage him from chasing me too hard in the air. I made a lot of tech errors and made some questionable recovery decisions (not sweetspotting / thoughtlessly sideBing at the end of game 1) and I feel like I was really missing something in my combo game and my defensive game. What do you guys think?

 

[DMG]

You were missing something from combo game because you didn't elect to use Uairs as much. The thing about Yoshi and his weight, especially when it comes to throws, is that it's VERY likely that he will have the time to just barely armor or Nair trade as you finally "arrive" to his location. Too often, you did a throw and either missed or didn't manage to beat his armor with Knee. Uair is not just faster, but the range you can be at to just barely nab someone with the tips of your legs is way bigger than Knee. Stuff like Uthrow into Uair is way more guaranteed, and is probably safer to try on Yoshi. Take your damage and positional advantage, then build that advantage into something that makes Knee more reliable.

Dthrow:

Spoiler

If you Dthrow at lower % and you notice that they DI away to avoid followups, you basically should assume that they will touch the ground. Probably with a tech chase opportunity for you if they can't use an aerial or wiggle before touching the floor. If you think he will be forced to tech, run after him and then wait for that option. You got some decent stomps after Dthrow because you read the tech roll after he did DI away: if you did that a couple of times more instead of flubbing a Knee or stomp during the initial chase, you might have converted those into an extra kill.

Onstage:

Spoiler

Onstage combos or stuff that doesn't involve throws, you want Nair or SH running Uair. Keeping Yoshi in a bad spot with Uairs can be worth more than a 50/50 coin toss with a Knee that they might avoid, armor, or trade with. If you have a huge advantage and can pressure him during the very beginning of DJ, say offstage somewhere, then yes Knee can work fine. Onstage though it's generally about keeping your edge, since doing that is almost always easier than converting that edge into a kill OR finding an opening in the opponent to give you an edge in the first place. Nair is decent to throw out in neutral. Uair is one of my preferred choices though, since it works meatier than Nair for trades and it's a solid smack out of almost any throw or prior aerial/combo starter.

Niche tip: you can force Yoshi into pressure situations offstage by threatening to footstool. A perfect example is when he chose to DI away near the edge. You run after him, not with a Knee or attack but with your body, and threaten to footstool him (even out of his DJ). If their DI is not impeccable, or if %'s are higher, I'm pretty sure you can legit combo the throw into the maneuver and it's not good for Yoshi at that point.

 

[DMG]

Double post, but slightly warranted: I should have vids up from Today's Bowser's Revenge whenever Tourney Locator uploads. Got 3rd, beat and outplaced a lot of top DFW players, better than I expected due to how long it's been since I went up there (last time was probably 4 months ago??)

Edit: DMG vs SparkingZero (Falcon vs Ike)

DMG vs Zael (Falcon vs Luigi)

DMG vs Hamyojo (Falcon vs Yoshi)

 

[SupremoRemo]

Here are a couple more recent videos of my falcon from S@Xanadu 1/5/2015. Finished 3rd out of 52.

vs. Junebug's Ganondorf - (winner's Semi)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgGji-t4HjE&list=PLHU5jeXrOw7CkBUknbfzf5PW8xlUVuexs&index=18

vs. Plank's Fox - (winner's quarters)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhrZGzxS0l0&list=PLHU5jeXrOw7CkBUknbfzf5PW8xlUVuexs&index=21

vs. Drugged Fox's Marth - (winner's finals)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7NTNszc3Ys&list=PLHU5jeXrOw7CkBUknbfzf5PW8xlUVuexs&index=19

vs. Junebug's Diddy Kong - (loser's finals)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9-JdgL-lB0&list=PLHU5jeXrOw7CkBUknbfzf5PW8xlUVuexs&index=20

Any and all criticisms or comments welcome and greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

 

[SupremoRemo]

Double post, but slightly warranted: I should have vids up from Today's Bowser's Revenge whenever Tourney Locator uploads. Got 3rd, beat and outplaced a lot of top DFW players, better than I expected due to how long it's been since I went up there (last time was probably 4 months ago??)

Edit: DMG vs SparkingZero (Falcon vs Ike)

DMG vs Zael (Falcon vs Luigi)

DMG vs Hamyojo (Falcon vs Yoshi)

Hey DMG I just got done watching your set with Hamyojo (great set by the way!). I was wondering--what made you want to choose Yoshi's Island brawl as your counterpick? Personally it's just a stage I dislike because of the huge platform that seems to get in my way. But it seemed like it was working for you. But just wondering what you had in mind for that counterpick!

 

[DMG]

Hey DMG I just got done watching your set with Hamyojo (great set by the way!). I was wondering--what made you want to choose Yoshi's Island brawl as your counterpick? Personally it's just a stage I dislike because of the huge platform that seems to get in my way. But it seemed like it was working for you. But just wondering what you had in mind for that counterpick!

I think I was running out of decent stages to work with. 14 total stages, we banned 6 total, I had won on 2 at that point and I don't think I was going to CP the stages he already won on, so that left like 4 choices. Yoshi's, Lylat, Battlefield, and Skyworld IIRC. None of those stages sounded great besides Skyworld, and I wasn't too sure how that layout would specifically help me besides being "big-ish"


Yoshi's Brawl seemed the best, and I was hoping for the platform slanting to mess up some of his DJC aerials (or vary how low/high I was positioned if I was forced up there and needed to tech roll). Having a platform to break combos probably favors Falcon over Yoshi, since Yoshi already has his armor to force trades or require near frame-perfect execution to outspeed him. When it dips low, it's pretty easy to reach people with Uairs from below, while Yoshi's moves usually he needs to be on top of you more (if it's not a Bair). Flying Nairs, Uairs, etc need more precise positioning, so uneven platforms might have helped me. I also figured that the slants near the edges would give me easier wavelands and a wall to jump off for some recoveries if I needed. The waveland part doesn't help Yoshi as much (I think cause of his weird DJ, but then again long DJ characters have different timings and positioning when dropping off and jumping from the ledge. Maybe I'm wrong about Yoshi?), although he got 1-2 boosted ones that normally might have been much riskier or harder to time.


If I could CP any stage I wanted, as much as I wanted, I would be picking either one of his bans (DL, DP, Smashville), or something like PS2. Small stages are dangerous for both characters, while larger ones with a huge main platform/stage give Falcon more room to run circles. I think I banned FD, cause while that stage is big, it's probably easier in practice for Yoshi to keep a vertical combo or tech chase going rather than Falcon being near frame-perfect off throws or hoping he can beat armor.


Hamlin could probably shed more light on what stages are good/bad in the MU. I was going off gut instinct and generalizations that seemed fairly true for what stages to ban or pick. @hamyojo

 

[Nephiros]

GIMMICK TIME - Aerial Falcon Kick can be pretty brutal VS blocking characters at the very ledge of platforms or the stage. Unless I'm mistaken or they have good shield DI, first hit will push them off and the landing hitbox will then launch them for free followup: https://gfycat.com/FavoriteGargantuanGrison

 

[BananaBolts]

I don't know if shield DI could prevent being knocked off if they're right on the edge. Wouldn't character's fall speed affect whether or not they could get hit by the landing hitbox? It seems like a fast-faller could fall far enough to avoid it. DI might be able to save you at high percents too but it still works as a gimmick.

Good discovery, Nephiros.

 

[Nephiros]

Good point with falling speed! o3o

Some neato friendly best of 3:

 

[BananaBolts]

To which button do you have taunt assigned?