Should the Gloves come off? Competitive Equipment Discussion

[Gawain]

After more thorough examination I just can't justify ever using this stuff competitively. It's randomizing, centralizing, annoying, and to finish it off, unnecessary.

 

[Weeman]

Custom moves are great because they don't affect a character's fundamentals, equipment has all sorts of effects and buffs and is so varied to ever be considered for competitive. So i'll say no, i don't think it should be allowed, even if it can give you basically L-cancelling it's just not balanced at all.

 

[Epok]

I have been messing round with equipment for the past few days and I think there are some ways we can implement it with out breaking the game.

1.) Only use Items with flat stats/ No equipment items with effects- Things such as your basic brawler badge that can be used on any character and they are not hard to grind for.

2.) Capping stats - I noticed if you keep you attack/ speed / defense within about +30 or less, it's just enough to speed up game play and make it more dynamic with out killing the pace of the game/characters.

From what I have tested with the stats adjust just slightly per character can make for some fun combos with out breaking the game. Thinks like smooth lander and hard breaker don't aren't really necessary from what I have seen. Plus If those things were added it would encourage smash run/ trophy rush grinding to an annoying amount. Things like advanced brawler badge are really easy to get.

Try it out and see what you think.

 

[otter]

You guys missed an opportunity to call this thread "should the gloves come on".

 

[Kyuuki]

I'm really shocked anyone is even considering this. Not only does it throw limitless variables into the game that are guaranteed to cause balance issues, but it's incredibly impractical, especially on the Wii U version where there's no guarantee that the console being used will even have good equipment for the character you want to use. I'd wager that the vast majority of Smash players would not take a tournament involving equipment seriously. You might as well hold a tournament with items on, or do stamina smash or play on Flatworld.

 

[Malex]

I have been messing round with equipment for the past few days and I think there are some ways we can implement it with out breaking the game.

1.) Only use Items with flat stats/ No equipment items with effects- Things such as your basic brawler badge that can be used on any character and they are not hard to grind for.

Limiting the number of equipment from the available pool will make it harder to achieve the desired stat adjustments. The whole point about the equipment is that there are Brawler badges with different stats. So, you have to farm until you get the exact brawler badge that you want and until you do so, you are at a disadvantage. (Assuming an optimum build exists.)

2.) Capping stats - I noticed if you keep you attack/ speed / defense within about +30 or less, it's just enough to speed up game play and make it more dynamic with out killing the pace of the game/characters.

The game already has built in limitations to the stat adjustments. There is a +200 hard cap on stats and, I believe but still have been unable to verify, a -100 cap on stats. (I have an equipment math thread where I was investigating some stuff, but other real life stuff has come up and I've had to table it for now.)

They gave stats diminishing returns, so stacking all one stat is less valuable than getting a little bit in each stat. (In general, I'm sure certain character set ups / strategies may incorporate a low stat.)

From what I have tested with the stats adjust just slightly per character can make for some fun combos with out breaking the game. Thinks like smooth lander and hard breaker don't aren't really necessary from what I have seen. Plus If those things were added it would encourage smash run/ trophy rush grinding to an annoying amount. Things like advanced brawler badge are really easy to get.

Try it out and see what you think.

The problem with equipment isn't the balance. The balance could be an issue, but I think it will turn out fine. The real problem is the amount of equipment.

Any legal equipment would encourage grinding there is an "infinite" amount of equipment that you can have. If equipment is legal, players will have to farm until they get....

Equipment that has:
The precise + stat
The precise - stat
The precise equipment type
The precise stat type
The precise bonus / penalty

For EACH character for EACH matchup

Any restrictions you put on this does NOT reduce the farming. Because your equipment drops are still coming from the same pool of equipment, you are just limiting which you can use, making it harder.


The barrier to entry is too high. I was able to get a +40/+42/+43 Little Mac. With No respawn invincibility and Harder edge grabs. (The +40 speed and tornado uppercut cover the penalty on the edge grabs)

I have a better chance at winning that little macs who can only get +30/+30/+30 or +20/+20/+20. So, other little macs have to farm until they reach that goal just to have an EQUAL chance (assuming we play with equal skill.) This is the issue.

I'm really shocked anyone is even considering this. Not only does it throw limitless variables into the game that are guaranteed to cause balance issues, but it's incredibly impractical, especially on the Wii U version where there's no guarantee that the console being used will even have good equipment for the character you want to use. I'd wager that the vast majority of Smash players would not take a tournament involving equipment seriously. You might as well hold a tournament with items on, or do stamina smash or play on Flatworld.

No evidence of equipment causing balance issues. (yet)
Custom Builds (including equipment) can be transferred from the 3DS version.

 

[otter]

how does the 3DS transfer help at all?

 

[Count Bleck]

I'm really shocked anyone is even considering this. Not only does it throw limitless variables into the game that are guaranteed to cause balance issues, but it's incredibly impractical, especially on the Wii U version where there's no guarantee that the console being used will even have good equipment for the character you want to use. I'd wager that the vast majority of Smash players would not take a tournament involving equipment seriously. You might as well hold a tournament with items on, or do stamina smash or play on Flatworld.

Remember that Amiibos and 3DS can transfer all of a person's settings into the wii U with just a click of a button. I'm also not saying we should have these at Apex or EVO at First, but just to see if thee meta is worth playing.What would be the problem with at least a "beta" tourney where no stat an be above 50?

 

[Malex]

how does the 3DS transfer help at all?

The 3ds helps in that you can use it to carry your builds to any Wii u station. The same way they will be used for custom move sets that a Wii u console don't have unlocked.

Remember that Amiibos and 3DS can transfer all of a person's settings into the wii U with just a click of a button. I'm also not saying we should have these at Apex or EVO at First, but just to see if thee meta is worth playing.What would be the problem with at least a "beta" tourney where no stat an be above 50?

Amiibos deconfirmed for transferring builds, that can only be used for figure players.
Any limitation placed on stats absolutely does not help the situation, it only makes it worse.

Let's say every time you play a game, you get a random cookie with somewhere between 1 and 100 chocolate chips in it.
You are saying anything with more than 20 chocolate chips is too delicious to eat, so we can't eat those ones.
So every time you get a cookie with more than 20 chips, it is essentially garbageand must be thrown away.

Limiting the equipment IN ANY WAY makes the only legitimate complaint against equipment even worse.

 

[otter]

3ds transfer doesn't help the people who have no interest in grinding in a fighting game (the majority). I only want to experience the single player modes once at most.


It could be a side event though.

 

[Jaur]

It seems like people need to figure out exactly what equipment does, its exact effects on damage taken/given, knockback taken/given, landing lag, fall speed, run speed, etc. Everyone is just providing their own anecdotal evidence why equipment is bad/good, which is only good for stoking the fires of pointless arguments. If there's some actual and accurate data about the precise effects of equipment, then we'll be able to move much faster to finding out whether we can allow them in a tournament setting (or just have it as an auxiliary meta).

 

[Dr_Falchion]

Personally I think equipment could be used up to a point. All / Most of the effect ones would need to be banned, but I think basic stat changes would be fine, especially for the Wii U version. There may be some game-breaking combinations in here though, so we would need to watch for that (aka character x with added speed can be invincible if teched correctly).

Personally, I'd be fine with matches where everyone has the "Smooth Lander" effect. As long as everyone has it, its really just making the game more competitive / faster.

 

[Judo777]

What happens when i get a +36 attack power -11 speed brawn badge that is perfect because it makes my dthrow uair combo and kill of the top platform at like 40%, any less attack power or speed and it doesn't work, also more attack the dthrow throws them too far to combo, and I get to the tournament and they only have +32 -14 brawn badge?

My big issue would be that there could be little stuff like this that can't be upheld due to the random nature of what you get.

 

[Sucumbio]

I think the devs were too lazy to perfectly balance the roster (if that is even possible) so things like this are actually awesome. Just image if brawl ganondorf had had something you could equip to increase his speed or ike too thus making their fsmash suddenly not a suicide move. Nah maybe not but the point is that with custom moves and equipment TOs can decide to allow low tiers (whomever they end up being) to utilize these things to give them a chance at competing against the high tiers. It may not make the matchup 50-50 but it could be the difference between 30-70 and 40-60.

 

[otter]

I think the devs were too lazy to perfectly balance the roster (if that is even possible) so things like this are actually awesome. Just image if brawl ganondorf had had something you could equip to increase his speed or ike too thus making their fsmash suddenly not a suicide move. Nah maybe not but the point is that with custom moves and equipment TOs can decide to allow low tiers (whomever they end up being) to utilize these things to give them a chance at competing against the high tiers. It may not make the matchup 50-50 but it could be the difference between 30-70 and 40-60.

it would honestly be easier to just mod the game.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Does anyone know what exactly the Hard Breaker equipment does? I heard that it gives more movement options and even enables dash dancing. Can someone confirm this?

 

[Eji1700]

EDIT: Providing a quick to the Equipment Catalouge thread for easy tracking of known equipment, as well as the Equipment Math Thread For understanding of Equipment mathematics on increases, decreases, etc.

Alrighty then. It seems that the community all around is becoming more and more open to the acceptance of character movesets. Many have said that these moves changes can add variety to matches and can even offer a whole new meta. But I've noticed that nobody has been talking about that other feature that came with this game much.

Yep. That's right. Equipment.

Now, before we get to the insta-bans and #Kappas, lets keep an open mind and actually review over what these items are and what can they bring to the competitive scene.

1. What is equipment?

Equipment, from what I have gathered, are power-ups that are divided into 3 sections: Attack, Defense, and Speed. They can be equipped to increase a certain stat while decreasing another. For Example, You can have equipment that makes you hit harder, but at the same time, you may move a bit slower overall. You may have up to 3 equipment per character.

EDIT: Thanks to SmashRiver64 for this piece of information:

2. What does it offer to the scene?

Equipment offers a very simillar deal that customizable movesets do: it adds a breathe of fresh air to characters and adds a whole new meta to the game. As stated earlier, every buff to a stat decreases another. This means while you can defenitly equip 3 Attack items or 3 speed, You'll be leaving yourself full of holes the opponent can take advantage of. Every piece of equipment suddenly becomes a vital decision that could significantly change how the character plays and what your next match will play like.

Picture this: You have an Ike and just lost to Palutena. She has some speed boosts equipped that decrease her defense and attack, but she still outranges you have a bit of trouble catching up to her. However, you do have a moveset saved that increase your defense and speed, but at the cost of your attack power. Since Ike already hits like a truck full of trucks and Palutena is already weakened from her own enchancements, You can easily take her on during the second round. At which point the Palutena has to plan out her next round and equipment, and so on. Hoever, this is simply one way equipment can turn out.

3. There's no way to see what equipment my opponent has! They could counterpick me and I would have no way to tell!

FALSE.

(go to 1:28:23 if the video doesn't work)

As soon as customizations are turned on, icons will be shown over all the selected players, showing exactly what boosts they have with them at that time. There is even a profile selection screen that shows the players custom movesets as well, which is unavoidable. This way, people can can confirm with one another their movesets and equipment before the stage select.

4. Buffs? IN MY SMASH BROS.?! This will never work out in competitive play!

Oh? But it already has. If you have the game, you probably fought a character who works almost exactly as the equipment does. Heck, you might even be maining him!

It's time to talk about my good man Shulk

All this talk about Buffs and de-buffs should have sounded familliar to you already, but yeah, Shulk is a living character that runs a very similar formula the Equipment system does. If you use his Monando arts, you get a buff in one stat, and a debuff to another, only in his case, they are on a time limit and he must wait to recharge that specfic buff before using it again. Regardless, Shulk is using his arts all the time, and you know what? This didn't cause a massive outcry. In fact, people loved it! It was unique! Fresh! New!

So, if Shulk gets positive reception and is not considered broken, and Custom Movesets are getting positive receptions, why are Equipment getting all the negativity? Because most people stopped reading at buff and said #banned, most likely.

So, there. Thats my thoughts on the matter. There are some difficulties to overcome concerning this as well, but they shall be adressed when they arrise. For now, now that we had some extra time to think we need to ask a question:

Should the gloves come off to promote more calculated matches? Or should they be here to stay, for even more variety and creativity for both the competitive and casual community?

They get a negative reaction because they're constant, passive, and give new abilities as well. ALL THINGS MONDO ARTS DON'T DO.

Maybe there's an argument for competitive equipment, but I highly doubt it's going to be "anything goes" given what we've seen, and "lol mondo arts" isn't even close to convincing me.

The issue revolves around degenerate all in builds, and the issue of how badly they can change a matchup with just % changes alone, invalidating matchup knowledge. Custom moves do this somewhat as well, but by virtue of not being super game warping(barring a few) and reasonable to memorize the popular ones, they look a lot more attractive.

 

[Quisciens]

Equipment items have positive gains. I think this should invalidate their use immediately, as you can equip equal attack, defense and power boosts to upgrade your character completely.

 

[BrimeZ]

Its absolute outrageous that custom move sets (no equipment) is not going to allowed at the beginning of Smash U's life span. I personally find it insulting that people want to narrow down the meta game early on in Smash 4's career.

A lot of people spent a lot of time unlocking and learning customs(no of which are broken). Just because [Insert Random top Melee player here] didn't bother to get the 3ds version of smash and/or [Insert Random top Melee player here] didn't bother trying to unlock or try customs and feels he has a lower chance of winning money at a tournament doesn't mean customs should be banned

That's like saying a certain character in Melee should be banned because an Out of State [Insert Random top Melee player here] goes a tournament out of his region and has to play a bunch of mid tier heroes. Or banning characters in PM because [Insert Random top Melee player here] doesn't know the match up. If you iliterate in a Match up, even if its custom moves in Smash 4, its entirely your fault

 

[Death01]

I think it would be okay if you only allow smooth lander, because all characters can use that and only allow one so no one gets a boost over any other. make it slight changes like that would be okay.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Okay I'm gonna gonna use the one that lets me have a sword, the one that gives me more invincibility after respawning, and smoothlander! Maybe the one where you are at 0% you get more KO power! WOW!

I don't agree with customs at all, but its just my opinion.

 

[Gunla]

This thread has mostly ran it's course; Equipment discussion (not Custom Moves) mostly seems to end up on Smooth Lander in terms of what could be legal, and that has a thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/smooth-lander-the-one-custom-equipment-that-should-be-legal.371291/