Should the Gloves come off? Competitive Equipment Discussion

[Count Bleck]

Yes they do.

Okay, Correction: The average player doesn't runs scenarios for each and every increase and decrease for every Pokemon in the game.

Shoutout to the people at the Smogon Dex Labs, btw.

 

[Fafnir]

If you play competitively, you do run those numbers, because a difference of 1 HP matters (and can frequently decide a match if you've set your stats up properly).

Equipment in Smash does nothing but bog down a game that already wastes a lot of time in the pre and post fight segments. Not to mention that it's a massive can of worms if we want any chance of having a balanced metagame. Just leave them off.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I can't recall people actively bringing a calculator for every single match. And no, I'm not expecting people to do that either. What you SHOULD be doing is calcs run on common sets, as shown by the calculator there. If we find out exactly how much equipment will usually increase and decrease by, then players can be better prepared going into their next tourney and even practice in training mode.

Imagine Equipment as EVs and IVs. No one runs scenarios for each and every increase and decrease in it. But people do remember what they are often against. So lets say people run a lot of attack on Bowser, which lowers his Weight to lets say... Villager. After fighting quite a few Ikes, you should be able to say "Hmm...an Ike. The popular set is X, so I should do Y and be able to kill him that way."

Even if an unpopular set comes out in the middle of play, then you would simply adapt to it. If it becomes popular, you will be more than ready for it next time. It's the natural evolution of a meta.

There's also the fact that, you know, Mons is a slow turn based game and smash isba fast paced fgc, one where you have to think quickly. Tbh smash has a lot more information to process, given knock back, hitstun, hitboxes, ATs, etc. You need quick reactions. You know how much time you have between turns in Smogon tiers? 5 minutes.

Calcs aren't necessarily taking every set they have into account BTW, its also taking in your other five, or less if some are fainted. Like I know a ton of calcs off my head because I have experience and have spent the time learning them. I know that part about it. What you described to me with the whole Ike and Bowser thing is pretty standard... For Pokemon. Except that there is one huge problem.

This isn't Pokemon

Mechanically, there is such a huge of a gap between the games. You just can't compare them. Now if someone wants to prove me wrong with equipment not being this giant thing making everything overly complicated, be my guest, but for now I remain not convinced in the slightest.

Edit:

Okay, Correction: The average player doesn't runs scenarios for each and every increase and decrease for every Pokemon in the game.

Shoutout to the people at the Smogon Dex Labs, btw.

The average player also isn't in the tournament scene. We are doing a competitive discussion here, right? I mean, if we are, then we should go by the tournament norm, which in Mons is calcijg the living hell out of everything.

 

[san.]

We adjust to many different characters with varying sizes and weight. I don't understand how treating a character with a shifted weight tier is much more mentally taxing. I think that denying equipment dumbs down the game for the sake of simplicity. It is indeed easier not having to deal with it, but I have yet to see what intrinsically makes them impossibly bad to use. I'm neutral about wanting to use them, but I would at least like some good reasoning.

 

[Captain Norris]

Smash 4's Equipment is very random. and, have you seen how much of a good attack boost does? It is nuts! Honestly, I am not in favor of equipment in the competitive field. Just my two cents.

 

[Fafnir]

We adjust to many different characters with varying sizes and weight. I don't understand how treating a character with a shifted weight tier is much more mentally taxing. I think that denying equipment dumbs down the game for the sake of simplicity. It is indeed easier not having to deal with it, but I have yet to see what intrinsically makes them impossibly bad to use. I'm neutral about wanting to use them, but I would at least like some good reasoning.

Simplicity =/= dumbing down.

In this case, you have to ask yourself, "what is it that equipment adds specifically to Smash that makes it better at being Smash."

The answer here is that it doesn't add a whole lot. Custom moves add new ways for you to express yourself and your playstyle with different characters, but the equipment here doesn't really add a whole lot for that, just raw numbers.

 

[Count Bleck]

Smash 4's Equipment is very random. and, have you seen how much of a good attack boost does? It is nuts! Honestly, I am not in favor of equipment in the competitive field. Just my two cents.

Well, for those who haven't could you expand a bit more on this? Do you have a video that shows off the before/after of boosts anywhere? It might help with the discussion.

 

[MajorMajora]

I say it should be allowed, maybe with some of the special effects being banned. It all comes down to the simple fact, however, that special equipment makes a character overall stronger. This helps balance.

Lets take say there are 2 characters named Joe and Bob. Joe has a power level of 5 and Bob has a power level of 10. Bob is twice as powerful as Bob.

Now lets give them custom equipment that increases their power by 5 each. Joe now has a power level of 10 and Bob has a power level of 15. Thanks to custom equipment, Bob is only 1.5 times as powerful as Joe.

Custom equipment will lower the strength gap between fighters.

 

[san.]

Simplicity =/= dumbing down.

In this case, you have to ask yourself, "what is it that equipment adds specifically to Smash that makes it better at being Smash."

The answer here is that it doesn't add a whole lot. Custom moves add new ways for you to express yourself and your playstyle with different characters, but the equipment here doesn't really add a whole lot for that, just raw numbers.

Being able to adjust the physical properties of your character to your liking definitely adds quite a bit. You can take the character whose abilities you prefer and customize their attributes to fit your playstyle.

Take DHD for example. You can prioritize defense and make yourself a fortress against those approaching you, attack in order to execute more powerful finishers and edgeguards, or speed to play better hit and run or easier combos and positional setups.

In this game, it seems that reacting to your own hit confirms isn't that difficult. It's left in the air whether there are equipment combinations or specials that completely overpowers others, but there are already infinites discovered that involve no equipment that remains legal (and could possibly be rectified by using it).

Does it contribute to your idea of what smash is? Who knows, "better at being Smash" is incredibly ambiguous. I think it can potentially be fun for side tournaments since I'm sure the community just doesn't like them because they don't want to deal with this new element. That's fine, but I'm just looking for some better reasons out there that you can't deny is harmful.

 

[Fafnir]

I say it should be allowed, maybe with some of the special effects being banned. It all comes down to the simple fact, however, that special equipment makes a character overall stronger. This helps balance.

Lets take say there are 2 characters named Joe and Bob. Joe has a power level of 5 and Bob has a power level of 10. Bob is twice as powerful as Bob.

Now lets give them custom equipment that increases their power by 5 each. Joe now has a power level of 10 and Bob has a power level of 15. Thanks to custom equipment, Bob is only 1.5 times as powerful as Joe.

Custom equipment will lower the strength gap between fighters.

That's not how game balance works.

 

[Xcano]

Yes, but both players should have equal-ish buff/de-buff stats before battle, although if you are going into battle with a horrible loadout and you lose that's pretty much your fault

 

[Captain Norris]

Well, for those who haven't could you expand a bit more on this? Do you have a video that shows off the before/after of boosts anywhere? It might help with the discussion.

All I remember is seeing a Mii swordfighter having a +157 attack boost, and it was doing major knockback and damage. I think it was a twitch stream, but I cannot remember which one.

 

[Tristan_win]

Who is to say that calculations cannot be a thing with equipment? Pokemon was able to to do just that. The only difference in this case is that we do not have enough info on equipment as of now, which leads people to believe that it could change a character drastically without consequence.

In reality, all that needs to be done is research on the subject. If we can find a ratio of how the equipment influence a player, Then figuring out when to kill them will be a breeze.

I agree with you that figuring out how each stat effect a character is possible but should it be expect of every single player to either memorize the conversion or carry a notepad to play smash at a decent level? Something like that should be voluntary not expected. The other thing you have to consider is the mental strain it would cause the player.

Here's a example using Brawl numbers if this system was included with a few reasonable problems

To keep things simple lets say 1 defense = 5% more to the normal kill percent and 1 attack = 3% more kill power (if attack is equal to defense that would make defense or attack useless so it has to be either higher or lower)

I will be playing as Sheik vs a Meta Knight on halberd, with me having 4 Attack buff on my usmash and meta knight having 4 defense. Using my prior knowledge of the normal settings I know that Meta Knight can live from a fresh usmash until 93% with good di on a neutral stage like FD, SV, and BF but Halberd has a lower ceiling so i shave off 10%, easy enough right

93-10=83%

Okay now lets add the buff/debuffs, first attack then defense

93-10=83-12=71+20=91

Cool after three quick calculations we know what percentage meta knight can die at, oh ****... I got greedy and use dacus a bit too close to my killing percents or I got the double hit and now it's going to be next to impossible to make sure it will be fresh when I need it to kill... Okay..no problem, typically with the decay system you can just add 15% onto Sheik Usmash killing %

So 93-10=83-12=71+30? ...wait, did he have 4 or 6 defense? ****, most meta knights use 6 but I think this guy has more speed then normal so I guess he has to have 4 or 5? No, that was last round, last round he had more speed... I could of sworn I saw him change it. ****, now that I think about it didn't he switch around a lot of his numbers before finally setting on what he wanted. Why didn't I pay more attention? It's 6.

93-10=83-12=71+30=101+15=116

116%! **** if it's that high I might as well wait a bit more so I can use a safer means to kill like nair, vanish or even side hit usmash instead of fishing for grabs and dacus sweet spots and decay ftilt into usmash, that's not even possible anymore.

MEANWHILE as I was thinking about all this complex crap I've falling into a rolling pattern of always rolling away from the ledge when I techs, the meta knight with his herp derp speed defense built picks up on this easy to see fact and greatly punishes me for my predictable rolling causing me to lose the match because I was thinking too deeply about other things.

 

[Captain Norris]

I am going to still continue to argue the main thing keeping equipment from being viable is the random stat amount and abilities added on.

 

[san.]

Outside of the rolling habit nonsense and not remembering your opponent's stats a few minutes after the round begins, you only need to know kill moves at 0 defense, +- midway to max, max, and extrapolate.

Do you memorize kill %s at every elevation, when edgeguarding, and offstage for each character? The information is variable and typically well within an understood variance when a move can kill. You estimate 10% for the extra elevation from Halberd just as you would estimate the effect of your attack boost vs the opponent's defense boost.

I think that equipment makes it stray from a fighter since it adds more RPG elements, but I think it's different rather than worse. I think that it can be a thriving additional element, especially for side-tournaments and online.

I am going to still continue to argue the main thing keeping equipment from being viable is the random stat amount and abilities added on.

Indeed. We'll have to look at https://docs.google.com/a/cornell.e...bf1seNGITN0XoXMKjsYtwlEyeY3mpSMVyI/edit#gid=0 and see the extent that stats and abilities can go. The question is how much of a difference those 1-2 stat points make. There also exists exclusive equipment that only a few characters or even a single character can use.

 

[Captain Norris]

https://docs.google.com/a/cornell.e...bf1seNGITN0XoXMKjsYtwlEyeY3mpSMVyI/edit#gid=0 and see the extent that stats and abilities can go. The question is how much of a difference those 1-2 stat points make. There also exists exclusive equipment that only a few characters or even a single character can use.

Speaking of which, osme of those additional effects are a bit ridiculous. Heal 3 percent every three seconds? A good player good get all the way back down to zero percent! And don't get me started on the power shield 15 percent damage! That is why I do not want these in also. There are obvious badges that ae better than others and will be used universally.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Speaking of which, osme of those additional effects are a bit ridiculous. Heal 3 percent every three seconds? A good player good get all the way back down to zero percent! And don't get me started on the power shield 15 percent damage! That is why I do not want these in also. There are obvious badges that ae better than others and will be used universally.

At this point, you can pretty much tell why customized special moves and equipment are banned in random online matches.

 

[Captain Norris]

At this point, you can pretty much tell why customized special moves and equipment are banned in random online matches.

I can understand equipment, but I think Moves are not as bad honestly. I still think they are competitively viable. ^.^ But yeah I get it lol.

 

[Tristan_win]

Outside of the rolling habit nonsense and not remembering your opponent's stats a few minutes after the round begins, you only need to know kill moves at 0 defense, +- midway to max, max, and extrapolate.

Do you memorize kill %s at every elevation, when edgeguarding, and offstage for each character? The information is variable and typically well within an understood variance when a move can kill. You estimate 10% for the extra elevation from Halberd just as you would estimate the effect of your attack boost vs the opponent's defense boost.

I think that equipment makes it stray from a fighter since it adds more RPG elements, but I think it's different rather than worse. I think that it can be a thriving additional element, especially for side-tournaments and online.



Indeed. We'll have to look at https://docs.google.com/a/cornell.e...bf1seNGITN0XoXMKjsYtwlEyeY3mpSMVyI/edit#gid=0 and see the extent that stats and abilities can go. The question is how much of a difference those 1-2 stat points make. There also exists exclusive equipment that only a few characters or even a single character can use.

I was just trying to demonstrate how keeping a bunch of numbers in you head can become difficult and can effect your play. Until I got use to counting decays with Sheik i suffer greatly from mind games as my mind was too busy with other things besides my habits and my opponents. Also it's surprising easy to forget things once the pressure builds if your not mentally ready. My little example wont always happen and for pro's I doubt they would have this problem at all but for those who never played with a bunch of numbers this is a real reality for a very long time... I know i still mess up on occasions.

 

[san.]

Speaking of which, osme of those additional effects are a bit ridiculous. Heal 3 percent every three seconds? A good player good get all the way back down to zero percent! And don't get me started on the power shield 15 percent damage! That is why I do not want these in also. There are obvious badges that ae better than others and will be used universally.

2% every 3 seconds. You sacrifice 40 attack compared to equipment with similar defense penalties. You recover 20% every 30 seconds, but probably die a good amount earlier with the poor defense. The powershielding explosion could prevent more damaging punishes, but honestly, we'll have to see how it works. Many abilities don't seem like they're worth the stats penalty.

I was just trying to demonstrate how keeping a bunch of numbers in you head can become difficult and can effect your play. Until I got use to counting decays with Sheik i suffer greatly from mind games as my mind was too busy with other things besides my habits and my opponents. Also it's surprising easy to forget things once the pressure builds if your not mentally ready. My little example wont always happen and for pro's I doubt they would have this problem at all but for those who never played with a bunch of numbers this is a real reality for a very long time... I know i still mess up on occasions.

I remember having to memorize some numbers such as Snake's up tilt kill percentages on my character, but I was simply trying to argue that an educated approximate is good enough. That's what I assume most people do when fighting random characters and it doesn't break the game.

 

[Captain Norris]

2% every 3 seconds. You sacrifice 40 attack compared to equipment with similar defense penalties. You recover 20% every 30 seconds, but probably die a good amount earlier with the poor defense. The powershielding explosion could prevent more damaging punishes, but honestly, we'll have to see how it works. Many abilities don't seem like they're worth the stats penalty.

But sense you can hold three badges, you could totally counteract the negative decrease and just go for that ability.

 

[san.]

Spoiler

Equipment is split into weapon, body, and legs. It depends on what kinds of abilities can be stacked. We have yet to see stats as polarizing as the Max-Power Gloves seen above. In fact, from the equipment catalog, the best ratio I have seen yet was 2:1, +38/-19 and +48/-24.

Edit:
Useless debuffs such as less damage from thrown items seem to have the best stats, such as +55 defense for -17 speed, closer to 3:1.

 

[Count Bleck]

Speaking of which, osme of those additional effects are a bit ridiculous. Heal 3 percent every three seconds? A good player good get all the way back down to zero percent! And don't get me started on the power shield 15 percent damage! That is why I do not want these in also. There are obvious badges that ae better than others and will be used universally.

For the sake of simplicity and testing, I'd rather we focus on equipment without added effects. Once we test those out, we can then spread out to the extra abilities, which would need more studious testing on a competitive level. Even I can tell that letting players running around stalling and healing themselves sounds pretty bad, even on paper.

 

[Fafnir]

Wow, after reading those equipment effects, that all sounds broken as ****.

 

[Mettie7]

I was too lazy to read everything, but I think I get the gist;

Custom moves, yes, separate from standard. Equipment, no, unless you wanna do a customs w/ and w/o equipment then go nuts. I don't think equipment is a good idea, period. I trust the organizers and jazz to handle this in a way that makes sense, if they don't I will be very upset..

tl;dr, no

 

[Zinth]

I've been very interested in equipment since it was announced. I find equipment to be fascinating and, so far, pretty balanced. The gameplay potential equipment introduces is mind-boggling and very exciting. However, while I do believe equipment should see competitive play, I think it should be in a side-event and not in standard competition (at least in the beginning). Here are some reasons why I currently believe this:
- I think the insane amount of variance equipment introduces into the game is just too much for standard competition as we currently know it (so this could change over time as we learn more); skills like game-knowledge can potentially become moot in the face of such seemingly infinite variance. I do, however, believe that custom moves should be legal in standard competition.
- The incredible amount of variety amongst equipment parts makes their collection such a significant task that it basically becomes a separate hobby. I do feel that this could be too much of a burden to place on a standard competitive experience of this series' nature.
- Even though equipment does feature intrinsic balance, there is the potential for game-breaking combinations given the overwhelming amount of different equipment parts that exist. I do not feel that a standard competitive experience should be the testing ground for this just yet.

That said, I do think it is very important that there be equipment side-events. This would be somewhat akin to how Brawl mods were featured as side-events at Brawl tournaments (most notably Brawl-). Equipment presents such incredible potential for interesting competitive gameplay experiences and should definitely be explored as such, but in a "safe-room" of sorts (for now).

 

[ScubaGoomba]

As I think about it, a bigger concern really comes to mind:

I'm all about inclusion and I think Equipment can do a lot to make less viable characters more viable, however we really need to consider what it does to already viable characters. While Equipment can help out the Zeldas out there, imagine if something like this was available to Meta Knight in Brawl. Any benefit given to Zelda is completely overridden by the benefit to other characters, bringing a net neutral.

We could, possibly, consider a more complex ban where certain characters are allowed more Equipment access as a means of shoring up some weaknesses. This wouldn't be to make characters that would be excellent but-for a single, balancing flaw, but to take characters that have fundamentally flawed design concepts that don't match at all with the competitive game. The point wouldn't be to make the characters perfect, but to ensure all characters are viable.

 

[Qikz]

I have to ask as I've not really checked it out thorougly yet, if everyone can use all equipment, how could it possibly be imbalanced? If anything all it'd lead to is everyone using one set, nullifying the equipment in the process.

 

[fearless.leader]

anything new is bound to have pushback by the community, it will definately take awhile before we decide whats competitive and not.

one way we might use equipment is to provide small buffs for characters that need balancing, sm4sh has lots of options for this.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I have to ask as I've not really checked it out thorougly yet, if everyone can use all equipment, how could it possibly be imbalanced? If anything all it'd lead to is everyone using one set, nullifying the equipment in the process.

It's possible that different character archetypes would lend themselves to a different minmax setup depending on if it's better to enhance their strengths or shore up their weaknesses. There's also the matter of personal preference and, for the speed stat, the potential to make an already fast character too fast to effectively control.

 

[Zinth]

On the other hand, I am generally a proponent of "innocent until proven guilty", and the Wii U version will be the main arena for this game, so until the Wii U version releases it may make sense just to allow full customization in 3DS tournaments so we can get a better feel for it. However, unless we go with the side-tournament route (which is feasible since you don't have to worry about setup availability with the 3DS, so events will run more quickly) I don't see a consensus being reached between TOs initially.

Really though, having both standard and equipment tournaments at events may give us the best perspective on the matter, I think.

Ultimately, I don't think this is a question that can be satisfactorily answered without actual experience and testing.

 

[TheTuninator]

I tend to agree that the potential effect equipment could have on players' matchup knowledge and ability to find and perform combos and kill moves, as well as setup issues on WiiU, is really not likely to be balanced out by whatever perceived benefits equipment will bring. Definitely something that will need to be tested, but I am skeptical.

 

[fractalWizard]

For the purposes of picking/counter-picking and guessing how equipment will affect kill percentages, there is the little pie chart that shows up when you have equipment. Assume that if they have a major defense filled out, then they almost definitely have large hits to attack or speed.

Using these factors reduces guesswork and calculations needed, honestly. A high percentage defense means you'll need to do more damage before you can ring them out, pure and simple.

If we did, however, we would need to regulate it somehow. Perhaps put a limit on ratios. Perhaps give each secondary effect a rating and say only certain ratings are allowed. "This tournament is restricted to 2.0 ratio and below, with B-rank effects max." Stuff like that.

It'd take time, but i think it could add a lot to the meta. Cataloging and figuring out specifics is why i started the spreadsheet, after all! :D

 

[san.]

On the other hand, I am generally a proponent of "innocent until proven guilty", and the Wii U version will be the main arena for this game, so until the Wii U version releases it may make sense just to allow full customization in 3DS tournaments so we can get a better feel for it. However, unless we go with the side-tournament route (which is feasible since you don't have to worry about setup availability with the 3DS, so events will run more quickly) I don't see a consensus being reached between TOs initially.

Really though, having both standard and equipment tournaments at events may give us the best perspective on the matter, I think.

Ultimately, I don't think this is a question that can be satisfactorily answered without actual experience and testing.

Unlike stages and other factors with rulesets, I feel that equipment would be easy to test without tournaments. If you can use this feature online with friends, I think that ladders and online tournaments with equipment have the potential to be successful/popular and help gauge the impact of any problematic min-max sets.

 

[2fast]

At high levels of competitive play people do know what moves kill which characters at exact %s and equipment would definitely tamper with that way of thinking. I think this would be great for a side event considering how unorthodox it would make the matches.

For example, say you have two people max their attack which would lower their defense by a whole lot. I haven't played the game so I don't know how powerful these characters can get but my guess is that they can probably one shot, if not two shot each other. It would be like playing a sudden death with your opponent which sounds kind of stupid for tourneys, though great for a side event. Say you take two people who max out defense. Those two would probably live to sudden death %s unless gimped. This could even lead to timeouts which also sounds dumb for tourneys but could be entertaining for side events. Of course for the spectators, watching a sudden death like match or super heavy weight sumo wrestling champion matches sounds kind of stupid to me for the main tourney but enjoyable for a side event.

These are just two scenarios though and I don't have any knowledge of how much equipment effects your character so I'm just guessing here.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Someone was able to upload images of the equipment type icons, though I don't really know which icons represent badges.

http://imgur.com/a/hd45G

 

[Zinth]

Ok, so I've had some new thoughts on this matter.

Basically, I'm thinking that there should be customization-on tournaments and customization-off tournaments.

I feel like equips stand to add a lot of really interesting things into the game that can make it a fresh experience. Of course there are issues that come along with something like that so that's why having custom-on (new experience) and custom-off (status quo) tournaments could be a good idea.

Basically, it seems that the only really novel thing about this game with respect to the Smash series as a whole is the customization aspect. There's still a game without that, but there's a whole other game with it. This game is basically two different games.

Non-customized play is a continuation of the norm.

Customization is a whole new world of Smash.

On top of this, I feel like the game was designed to account for the potential of customization. For example, I think the reason the blast zones are so far away is so people don't get KOd at ridiculously early percents. I also think that the reason your options are limited during the dash animation (you can only dash attack, grab, or jump during it) is that so speed-boosted characters do not become too good (boosting speed increases the speed and length of the dash animation, among other things -- imagine a super-long, super-fast dash animation that you didn't have to commit anything to).

 

[Fafnir]

I have to ask as I've not really checked it out thorougly yet, if everyone can use all equipment, how could it possibly be imbalanced? If anything all it'd lead to is everyone using one set, nullifying the equipment in the process.

Once again, not how game balance works. At all.

Just because something gives the same bonus to all members of the cast does not necessarily mean that that bonus benefits all members of the cast the same. Characters with strong approaches will benefit much more from an attack power boost than those who rely on zoning games, for example. Similarly, passive healing boosts are especially damning against characters that can't rely on high speed, high efficiency kill setups.

Game balance is never about some arbitrary sense of power level. It's about the tiny interactions between many very distinct systems, all of which can case rippling waves with one another.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'm really starting to wonder if there are any equipment parts that boost the weight attribute. Equipment that multiplies weight by 1.5 would make even Jigglypuff have above average weight.

If such equipment does exist, that could end up being problematic for competitive play.

 

[Joe73191]

Does any combination of equipment make you transfer momentum from dash to jump, or have a true dash dance or decrease landing lag on the laggier moves? If so great I'm all for it.