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Should the Gloves come off? Competitive Equipment Discussion

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BADGRAPHICS

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If attack boosting equipment is capable of boosting damage like that, it makes me wonder how the defense boosting equipment will reduce the amount of damage that a fighter receives.

I guess in theory, a +30 attack boost would be neutralized by a +30 defense boost, but there may be more to the customization than meets the eye.
Difficult to say. It depends at what point the game makes the calculation.

For instance, if you have +30 attack, that could mean an increase to damage and knockback of 30%. If you have +30 defence, that could mean a 30% decrease.

If the game adds 30% to the attack, and then protects you from 30% of that attack, the attack would be 91% as effective as it was supposed to be, instead of the buffs just cancelling each other. You could test it pretty easily, though.
 

Chiroz

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Apparently full strength Ganondorf's/Bowser's can one shot people by dealing higher than 100% with one smash attack. I don't think equipment will be allowed without some severe regulations. And why bother with equipment if you are going to ban most of it anyways.

Also Link can somehow get 1 shot kills with arrows. And this is barely 2 weeks of farming equipment. Imagine when people have 2-3 months farming this and get good RNG drops. It'll be like 10 times worse.
 

Shog

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Sorry, I have to ask this: What would be, even for competitive players, fun about a metagame with Shulk surviving with 400% and Bowser/Ganondorf dealing massive damage with attacks, OHKO people with one smash attack(!).

And the setup would be worse than custom move: Check how fast Ninjalink saves inbetween characters the custom moves. That is like 20 secs. And don't forget custom effects like affecting the perfect shield etc.

Funny how Smash 4 shows us two ways of customs, one works and one doesn't. Huh, like having perfect examples in the game.

I also play competitive Pokemon, but if it isn't fun (like Gen 5 *cough*), why bother? Same would most likely happen with this.
 

Chiroz

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Sorry, I have to ask this: What would be, even for competitive players, fun about a metagame with Shulk surviving with 400% and Bowser/Ganondorf dealing massive damage with attacks, OHKO people with one smash attack(!).

And the setup would be worse than custom move: Check how fast Ninjalink saves inbetween characters the custom moves. That is like 20 secs. And don't forget custom effects like affecting the perfect shield etc.

Funny how Smash 4 shows us two ways of customs, one works and one doesn't. Huh, like having perfect examples in the game.

I also play competitive Pokemon, but if it isn't fun (like Gen 5 *cough*), why bother? Same would most likely happen with this.

Most competitive players are against equipments. Most of the people who advocate for new things like this haven't participated in tournaments. The problem is people haven't played many games with factors like these so they only see the upside (uniqueness, everyone has their own character with its own unique stats) but they don't see all the downsides (people getting incredibly good RNG, mix/maxing stats, outright creating unhealthy gameplay like a 1 hit KO wonder which also dies in 1 hit).

They don't understand that the dream of everyone just changing their characters slightly and it changing their playstyle while still being balanced is not real. Most of the time what you will get is people abusing the system in a way which might seem fun the first few games (such as a 1 hit KO Bowser) but once you've played a couple of games like this it will be completely boring and it will make people stop playing.
 
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BADGRAPHICS

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Most competitive players are against equipments. Most of the people who advocate for new things like this haven't participated in tournaments. The problem is people haven't played many games with factors like these so they only see the upside (uniqueness, everyone has their own character with its own unique stats) but they don't see all the downsides (people getting incredibly good RNG, mix/maxing stats, outright creating unhealthy gameplay like a 1 hit KO wonder which also dies in 1 hit).

They don't understand that the dream of everyone just changing their characters slightly and it changing their playstyle while still being balanced is not real. Most of the time what you will get is people abusing the system in a way which might seem fun the first few games (such as a 1 hit KO Bowser) but once you've played a couple of games like this it will be completely boring and it will make people stop playing.
Yeah, I think we've reached a point in the discussion now where we can all agree that equipment shouldn't be used in regular tournaments. Even if it wasn't totally broken, it changes the game significantly; we just don't want that.

I do think people should be excited about the prospect of equipment side-events, though. It's something that's worth experimenting with.
 

san.

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Most competitive players are against equipments. Most of the people who advocate for new things like this haven't participated in tournaments. The problem is people haven't played many games with factors like these so they only see the upside (uniqueness, everyone has their own character with its own unique stats) but they don't see all the downsides (people getting incredibly good RNG, mix/maxing stats, outright creating unhealthy gameplay like a 1 hit KO wonder which also dies in 1 hit).

They don't understand that the dream of everyone just changing their characters slightly and it changing their playstyle while still being balanced is not real. Most of the time what you will get is people abusing the system in a way which might seem fun the first few games (such as a 1 hit KO Bowser) but once you've played a couple of games like this it will be completely boring and it will make people stop playing.
I go to tournaments and have been involved in balance teams for other games. I just felt that dismissing it before we know anything about it was hasty. Now that we know how it scales somewhat, we can come up with better conclusions. Indeed, it's only as good as the amount of abuse it can take.
 

Chiroz

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I go to tournaments and have been involved in balance teams for other games. I just felt that dismissing it before we know anything about it was hasty. Now that we know how it scales somewhat, we can come up with better conclusions. Indeed, it's only as good as the amount of abuse it can take.
I mean, my post wasn't meant to be offensive, please no one take it as such. I know a lot of tournament players also wanted to see how equipment must work (I myself was very curious), but its a fact that most people who advocate for things like stages and items don't really participate in the tournament scene.



My second comment was meant to be from the point of view of an experienced theorycrafter. I am very inclined to do math every time something "customizable" comes up. I am a diamond tier League of Legends player and sometimes I am able to check just how broken a character is just by throwing little numbers at it, most people don't notice the power a character can or can't have before they watch others play it. Obviously there's more to a character than just his damage but that's why I also take things like the champions cooldowns + CDR into consideration on my calculations. Many times broken champions like Ezreal in S2 or Lucian on release come out and people think they are "bad" for months just because they don't realize the potential until a pro shows it to them. This is what theorycrafters do, they just throw numbers at something and realize the "maximum" potential, even if they don't have the skill to reach this "maximum".

A person who has played games in this way in the past instantly understands as soon as you tell him that there is RNG in the customization and that there is no hard cap on stats obtained through this RNG (at least that we know of) that there is no "maximum" potential. You could literally build your character infinitely as long as RNG allows you to. If you farmed long enough you would probably be able to get a 1 hit KO Bowser with 0 negative stats or something like that. As such this part of the game is inherently broken.

I was just stating that most people who don't like to view the game in numbers don't seem to think that others do view them as numbers. And those who will view the game as numbers will end up having builds that completely break the game in one way or another. 1 Hit KO Bowser is just the tip of the iceberg. I expect more things like 1 Hit KO Link Arrows in the next 3 months to come.



Anyways, we'll see how equipment evolves in then near future. Nintendo's own tournament has equipments allowed.
 
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BADGRAPHICS

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I mean, my post wasn't meant to be offensive, please no one take it as such. I know a lot of tournament players also wanted to see how equipment must work (I myself was very curious), but its a fact that most people who advocate for things like stages and items don't really participate in the tournament scene.



My second comment was meant to be from the point of view of an experienced theorycrafter. I am very inclined to do math every time something "customizable" comes up. I am a diamond tier League of Legends player and sometimes I am able to check just how broken a character is just by throwing little numbers at it, most people don't notice the power a character can or can't have before they watch others play it. Obviously there's more to a character than just his damage but that's why I also take things like the champions cooldowns + CDR into consideration on my calculations. Many times broken champions like Ezreal in S2 or Lucian on release come out and people think they are "bad" for months just because they don't realize the potential until a pro shows it to them. This is what theorycrafters do, they just throw numbers at something and realize the "maximum" potential, even if they don't have the skill to reach this "maximum".

A person who has played games in this way in the past instantly understands as soon as you tell him that there is RNG in the customization and that there is no hard cap on stats obtained through this RNG (at least that we know of) that there is no "maximum" potential. You could literally build your character infinitely as long as RNG allows you to. If you farmed long enough you would probably be able to get a 1 hit KO Bowser with 0 negative stats or something like that. As such this part of the game is inherently broken.

I was just stating that most people who don't like to view the game in numbers don't seem to think that others do view them as numbers. And those who will view the game as numbers will end up having builds that completely break the game in one way or another. 1 Hit KO Bowser is just the tip of the iceberg. I expect more things like 1 Hit KO Link Arrows in the next 3 months to come.



Anyways, we'll see how equipment evolves in then near future. Nintendo's own tournament has equipments allowed.
Bear in mind that the OHKO Link was against a vanilla opponent. I find it hard to believe that such a match-up would be as one-sided in a real match. Also, don't forget also that raising a character's attack inherently lowers their defence, so it's likely that OHKO Link could also get OHKO'd himself; the "glass cannon" archetype. It's also possible that a max-defence character would be perfectly survivable against him.

Provided the RNG is within acceptable boundaries, each player will have the same opportunity to equip their character as any other, so the balance inherent to the vanilla game shouldn't be too disrupted.

Although I don't think equipment is desirable for use in regular tournaments, I worry it's being too quickly dismissed by many as being entirely non-competitive, which is totally unproven and probably not true.

What is the highest stat-gain you've seen on a piece of equipment, by the way? The highest I've seen is +85/-50. I've not seen anything in-game that's even close to being as good as the +179/-50 Max-Power Gloves shown on the website. Have they been toned down?
 

ParanoidDrone

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What is the highest stat-gain you've seen on a piece of equipment, by the way? The highest I've seen is +85/-50. I've not seen anything in-game that's even close to being as good as the +179/-50 Max-Power Gloves shown on the website. Have they been toned down?
Speculating, but it may depend on the intensity setting in Classic and other modes where you can pick a difficulty level. Uprising did it and Smash 3DS seems to be taking a lot of cues from that game.
 

Chiroz

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Bear in mind that the OHKO Link was against a vanilla opponent. I find it hard to believe that such a match-up would be as one-sided in a real match. Also, don't forget also that raising a character's attack inherently lowers their defence, so it's likely that OHKO Link could also get OHKO'd himself; the "glass cannon" archetype. It's also possible that a max-defence character would be perfectly survivable against him.

Provided the RNG is within acceptable boundaries, each player will have the same opportunity to equip their character as any other, so the balance inherent to the vanilla game shouldn't be too disrupted.

Although I don't think equipment is desirable for use in regular tournaments, I worry it's being too quickly dismissed by many as being entirely non-competitive, which is totally unproven and probably not true.

What is the highest stat-gain you've seen on a piece of equipment, by the way? The highest I've seen is +85/-50. I've not seen anything in-game that's even close to being as good as the +179/-50 Max-Power Gloves shown on the website. Have they been toned down?

You raise some points which aren't accurate.


When you raise a stat, you have to lower another, true, but...


Raising attack doesn't always lower defense, sometimes it lowers speed or another stat (at least from what I have seen). The raise and lower of the stats is random, it isn't always relative, you don't always raise double of what you lower. As such you could find pieces which raise 4 times more than what they lower.

So what happens when you find a piece that raises 40 attack, lowers 12 speed and another that raises 40 speed and lowers 12 attack? You end up with +28 on both attack and speed. This has been proven in a youtube video where a guy made a build with full positive numbers, only raising stats without lowering them.

Amusingly enough someone claimed to get a +50/-14 piece which is actually around a 3.5:1 ratio so it seems it is possible to get that kind of ratio.

The highest I have seen myself is 28, but its because I haven't looked into equipments.



You could theoretically make a 1 hit KO Bowser which doesn't die until 400%. Sure, your opponent can also make a 1 hit KO Lucario which doesn't die until 400% and you've basically reseted the game to default. But you are forcing everyone to farm for months in order to be able to compete at default level. And anyone who refuses to build defense will be left to be 1 shot killed by these builds.

This is without taking into account the random properties an item can have such as lifestealing, heal per second, shield healing, invulnerability, etc, etc.
 
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BADGRAPHICS

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You raise some points which aren't accurate.


When you raise a stat, you have to lower another, true, but...


Raising attack doesn't always lower defense, sometimes it lowers speed or another stat (at least from what I have seen). The raise and lower of the stats is random, it isn't always relative, you don't always raise double of what you lower. As such you could find pieces which raise 4 times more than what they lower.

So what happens when you find a piece that raises 40 attack, lowers 12 speed and another that raises 40 speed and lowers 12 attack? You end up with +28 on both attack and speed. This has been proven in a youtube video where a guy made a build with full positive numbers, only raising stats without lowering them.

Amusingly enough someone claimed to get a +50/-14 piece which is actually around a 3.5:1 ratio so it seems it is possible to get that kind of ratio.

The highest I have seen myself is 28, but its because I haven't looked into equipments.



You could theoretically make a 1 hit KO Bowser which doesn't die until 400%. Sure, your opponent can also make a 1 hit KO Lucario which doesn't die until 400% and you've basically reseted the game to default. But you are forcing everyone to farm for months in order to be able to compete at default level. And anyone who refuses to build defense will be left to be 1 shot killed by these builds.

This is without taking into account the random properties an item can have such as lifestealing, heal per second, shield healing, invulnerability, etc, etc.
I'd be really interested to see equipment that raises Attack but lowers Speed. The Equipment Directory thread has so far catalogued over 140 pieces and not a single one can do that. Are you sure you saw that right?

I've seen equipment with really good stat ratios, but they all have negative bonus effects. Every piece of basic equipment (without a bonus effect) I've seen has been 2:1 at best (the range seems to be randomly between 1.5:1 and 2:1). All equipment I've seen with positive bonus effects has had a ratio of at best about 1.5:1, but for really good bonuses you often get a net stat loss. A piece of equipment I saw with the "random 3x damage" bonus gave +7/-40.

Can you provide links for any of this?
 

Chiroz

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I'd be really interested to see equipment that raises Attack but lowers Speed. The Equipment Directory thread has so far catalogued over 140 pieces and not a single one can do that. Are you sure you saw that right?

I've seen equipment with really good stat ratios, but they all have negative bonus effects. Every piece of basic equipment (without a bonus effect) I've seen has been 2:1 at best (the range seems to be randomly between 1.5:1 and 2:1). All equipment I've seen with positive bonus effects has had a ratio of at best about 1.5:1, but for really good bonuses you often get a net stat loss. A piece of equipment I saw with the "random 3x damage" bonus gave +7/-40.

Can you provide links for any of this?
Not really, all my info comes from these boards, I haven't looked into equipment as I said. I only have information from hearsay on threads from these boards basically.

You could still make a build of only positive numbers, even if the ratio is only 2.1:1.

Also if your thread is correct then you can choose which stat to lower by building into the other 2 stats in such a way that only 1 stat is lowered. You could still build an Attack/Defense build sacrificing speed.



All in all, I don't have much information on equipment, but my argument has always been that it will create degenerative play, not that they are unbalanced.
 

BADGRAPHICS

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Not really, all my info comes from these boards, I haven't looked into equipment as I said. I only have information from hearsay on threads from these boards basically.

You could still make a build of only positive numbers, even if the ratio is only 2.1:1.

Also if your thread is correct then you can choose which stat to lower by building into the other 2 stats in such a way that only 1 stat is lowered. You could still build an Attack/Defense build sacrificing speed.

All in all, I don't have much information on equipment, but my argument has always been that it will create degenerative play, not that they are unbalanced.
You're right, regrettably, characters with equipment will always be stronger than characters without; it's completely possible to equip a character to just be better.

As for degenerative play, I assume by this you mean that games will become over-simplified with players relying on cheap tactics to score easy wins, and the metagame devolving into rock-paper-scissors between a handful of extreme builds? That's my biggest fear, and I'm willing to employ measures to mitigate it if people are interested enough in developing a competitive equipment meta, but I think it's a little early to say with certainty that it will come to that.
 

Chiroz

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You're right, regrettably, characters with equipment will always be stronger than characters without; it's completely possible to equip a character to just be better.

As for degenerative play, I assume by this you mean that games will become over-simplified with players relying on cheap tactics to score easy wins, and the metagame devolving into rock-paper-scissors between a handful of extreme builds? That's my biggest fear, and I'm willing to employ measures to mitigate it if people are interested enough in developing a competitive equipment meta, but I think it's a little early to say with certainty that it will come to that.
Yes, that's exactly what I meant by degenerative play. Fair enough, we will see what the future holds.
 

themagicalcake

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Just no. If we allow equipment, this is what all high level matches will look like.
 
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Shog

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I think the Death Arrow video shows how unhealthy equipment is, especially if we consider that equipment can give special effects like you have 30% damage in the beginning but a 1.2 x modifier for knockback. Whut
 

Rakurai

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I'd have to agree with the equipment drops being too random for them to ever be viable in a serious competitive environment.

I have a couple hundred items now, but only about maybe one out of every five actually have an ability. Getting an ideal set-up for any one character could easily take dozens of hours.
 

S2

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A tentative "no" from me on custom equipment. At least until it's shown we can have a simple and effective ruleset with it that works. And that's subject to whether tournament goers really want it. Of course, we could have a big ruleset over which equipment is allowed and what isn't. That really comes down to whether it'll be practical for TO's to discuss and enforce it. If it is allowed the ruleset for equipment will need to be simple, both for enforcement and not to confuse players looking to join the tournament community.

As for custom moves, I'm all for them. They open a lot of different character playstyles without effecting knockback/damage knowledge. From what I've played with and is shown in ninjalink's videos, most of the customs seem fairly balanced at first impression.

Or the condensed version of my vote: ban equipment, allow custom movesets.
 
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Leebee

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eventually, it would be cool enough that even with random values we found a "sweetspot" of stats that upped speed, damage, and knockback.

it would definitely satisfy melee peeps.
 

Davis-Lightheart

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So this video was posted recently and I thought it was interesting.


I think this "smooth landing" equipment might be fair to use if we require that players must attempt to make the stats flat again.

Edit: I think more about it, and I feel smooth landing should be allowed. It shouldn't be hard to get one custom piece of equipment considering how often you'll go into the other modes for custom moves.

The big rule for this is that players must have the stats be flat, or with negligeble stats within the single digit range. You take out the complexity of having to deal with stats, and the meta becomes more interesting for it.
 
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Count Bleck

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Even if equipment is allowed, there would have to be some major restrictions.
As mentioned earlier, I knew there would have to be restrictions on equipment items. My previous statement of having only items with no bonus effects should be allowed, and if the others should allowed, then they should with thorough testing before acceptance.
What the video shows above is what happens when you focus solely on a single stat to the extreme. The attack power is indeed humongous, but that Link also had negative 117 defense, Which make him so weak to be hit that even Jigglypuff would be able to swat him around like a fly.

To test this, I grabbed a Link and Powered him up to get a defense drop close to what the video portrayed, which sadly was only -90. I grabbed a Bowser with 0 equipment, and hit him with an uncharged Smash. A Clean 38% was taken from the Link. Next, I tested the constant, regular Bowser and Link, where an uncharged smash did 23%. Using this and a previous test with a Link at 86%, I found a 1% difference in damage, leading me to assume every -4 Defense = +1 Damage percentage raising. Doing some basic math, I can say that an uncharged Bowser Smash attack at that low defense should do a disgustingly powerful 52%.

I should also say that the video is a reminder of the fact that Equipment can be and should be limited before everyone jumps the gone and bans all equipment forever. I Propose a Stats Cap at around 50-60 to all stats. I say 60 Since at that point, The attack stat boosts all moves by 10%, which believe is a fair place to put a limit at this point.This should allow for a stable testing ball field for equipment, and now that the game is out, it should be very easy to gather volunteers for this project.
 
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Illuvial

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I've done some testing, and just maxing out the attack stat give you stupid kill ability, like UNFAIR AS **** damage, its just straight up stupid

Also, the Shulk comparison - while admirable - is also horribly invalid. Shulk's core damage, knockback and speed have been balanced delicately specifically for his base stats and move kit. Equipment itself wasn't balanced for competitive and fair play, nor was it balanced around every character's kit. A Donkey Kong with max attack is different from a Shulk with his % damage boost Monado Art on, so the comparison really isn't valid

It would be cool for side tournaments, but the main ruleset shouldn't allow it, and if it does it should place limitations on how big or small stats can be, and at that point why bother?
 
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Oooo, Smash Balls gravitating towards you! Oooo, giving your opponents 30% damage in the beginning! Oooo, killing at 60% seems fair! Let's do it!
 

Davis-Lightheart

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It would be cool for side tournaments, but the main ruleset shouldn't allow it, and if it does it should place limitations on how big or small stats can be, and at that point why bother?
For the side effects like making every normal aerial auto cancelable. If we remove the stats from the equation we remove the randomness and complexities then we just base off which side effect is too powerful or not.
 
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Davis-Lightheart

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http://smashboards.com/threads/equipment-maths-hope-for-the-future.370806/

This guy did some calculations on what stat amounts make a difference. It suffers diminishing returns, but it seems even a few points of Attack are enough to add a couple of percent to attacks if you are trying to avoid stat changes in favor of just getting that smooth landing modifier.
It's a matter of mathematics then. Finding out what combination gets flat values or negligible stats. Yes you'll still get random numbers, but there is still a finite amount of combinations to get the result. It shouldn't be hard to document something like this.

By making these random elements null, we take out the complexities and imbalance.

At least in the case of smooth landing because it's basically auto cancel for all normal aerials. That sounds no different than L-cancelling, except without the obnoxious trigger pressing.
 
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Rakurai

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It's really not easy to get the right abilities on a piece of gear your desired character can use.

I've haven't gotten a single item with any of the abilities I want to try out (Reduced fall speed and reduced landing lag in particular) despite having picked up hundreds of pieces of gear.
 
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Illuvial

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I can tell you right now that my custom Mario has an attack stat of 144 and a defense stat of -81 and yet he deals 35% damage with a single charged smash attack, and that same smash attack charged up deals 32% damage to him (when a Mario with 0 stats does the attack).

Where is the risk vs reward there? If me maxing out my attack stat still gives me more damage and doesn't make me lose enough defense for it to be a problem comparatively, then what's the point? So what if my opponent builds full damage on me, I build full damage and it still doesn't change anything, it just makes matches a lot shorter and more akin to "who lands the first few pokes". The speed stat is also pretty worthless on pretty much every character. Putting it on speed demons like Sonic is bad because it makes his already poor damage even worse (even if only slightly) and doesn't compliment his speed enough. But putting it on heavy characters makes their biggest advantage - power - diminish and makes it so that people building full damage will do the same damage as them, which then just makes characters more similar than anything.

The negative stat decreases are negligible, and the positive stat increases are godlike, so I don't see what it could add. It sounds really, really basic and really bland. Smash isn't a game like Final Fantasy Dissidia to where building sets and having equipment is a HUGE part of the metagame, and the game isn't designed around customization like Dissidia is
 
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Rakurai

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Maybe they could just limit people to only using gear that has positive abilities on it, because the stat increases on those tend to be way smaller then the items that lack them.
 
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Malex

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Equipments have diminishing returns and seem to max out at +100% of the base effect. So, no, there won't be 100+ damage F-smashes or anything like that.

Link's death arrows are a very specific build. (So far, it might be possible to achieve this with different equipment, but I'm not exactly sure. Equipment too random too predict, only time will tell.)

All attack + multiplier damage/knockback equipment + 2XXX Link.

Power Bow (Neutral 2) requires the Link player to make full draw on the bow before it can behave the way it does. So, you have one whole second to get out of the way. (Jump over link, reflect or catch arrow, hit him, shield.)
Is it REALLY that broken?
 

Thani

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If I recall, the gamebreaker ability that Link had was the 20% chance Critical Hit, which triples damage and knockback. So any strong move can become lethal, not just the arrows, if that 20% chance procs.
 

Illuvial

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That's just one example build, and like Thani said the death arrows aren't the only thing that proc the crit chance. Basically if I have a chance for one out of 5 successful hits to be triple damage and knockback strikes, that's OP as all hell, no debate there.

Regardless, if you have a ton of damage on your character you could essentially make a 20% move hit for 40% damage, or make a 15% move hit for 30% damage. That's insane, that cuts the moves I need to use to knock my opponent off the stage in half. I don't see why people can look at that and say "Yeah a simple tilt move being able to do more than a Smash move without stats is totally ok."

Is it because of the defense decrease when you have a high stat in attack? Well lemme tell you something, it doesn't really affect much. Basically here's how the meta for equipment would be

1. Someone has a High Attack stat and then someone counters with a High Defense Stat build. The stats essentially in theory cancel out and equipment does nothing

2. Both players build High Attack. Well in this situation matches are INSANELY quick and INSANELY boring and anti-hype as both players take like 3-4 pokes each to kill each other

3. Both players build High Defense. Well now we have a boring slugfest where no one does damage and no one has any speed of any kind, and the match is a snoozefest

4. Players build differing builds ie. Someone builds a hybrid build with mixed stats and another person uses a really defensive or a really attack based build. Well really, what's so interesting about this? So a high Attack build still does solid damage even after the Hybrid build's defense is taken into account, but then the Hyrbrid build's Attack stat - while lower - can take small advantage over the Attack build's low defense stat... But then... If Hybrid builds are clearly superior, then lets assume the following

5. Both players build hybrid stat builds that are balanced and only increase each stat slightly. Well now we only have slightly beefed up characters, and while this is the most interesting case scenario its also the only one that is actually an OK scenario. But if that's the case we only have slightly beefed up characters that just hit slightly harder... But wait the Defense stat makes them take less damage so that kinda cancels out... I guess the characters move a tad faster (assuming their silly enough to even build speed) so there's that, but I really don't see the point at that point

So really, unless scenario 4 and 5 end up mixing together and the meta actually diversifies, equipment won't do anything but make matches lamer, at least in theory. I'm all for tournament testing it out in the ruleset so we can see what equipment does with more certainty, but right now I don't see the point, and I can only see the mostly negative affects it could have on the meta
 

san.

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero
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What do people think about allowing only 1 piece of equipment and limiting equipment that heals, give you invincibility, and useless negative effects? I think that prevents some of the hardcore scaling problems, and you'll always have a negative stat.
 

Leebee

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with regards to the guy who wrote that reddit topic about looking at the equipment, that's kind of exactly what I was looking for:

it would be really cool to have a competitive tourney that just had a standard piece of equipment that gave:
  • soft landing
  • +10 speed
  • -10 defense
which would give you very fast aerials, increased ground speed (maybe air speed, not sure how the speed stat works), and then make you suffer slightly more knockback. or +5 and -5 if those values are too much.

of course the hard part becomes actually farming that EXACT ITEM, which could take a long time. hopefully when the WiiU version comes out we find an exploit with regards to equipment or that the save file can be duplicated and transferred over. I think the effects of equipment in general are way too good but this setup would just be a tiny push in a more fast-paced direction.
 

Metal B

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It all depends on the 3DS and Wii U connection. If you can transfer your equipment unlimited times on different Wii Us, there could be a Master 3DS, which will be used on all Wii Us. So every console would have the same equipment.
 

Gunla

wow, gaming!
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Yeah, a major issue with the Wii U and 3DS version and equipment getting allowed is going to be a bit of a hassle.

However, the potentiality of a "Master 3DS", as Metal B stated, actually sounds hypothetically smart. Each entrant could take a turn on the 3DS that would have everything unlocked, and then they could all be connected to the Wii U versions. The only major hassle is that this would likely need to be done in advance.

Alternatively, you could have on the spot style setups and give, say, a minute time limit with a specific set of allowed custom parts.
 

nyttyn

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Joined
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However, the potentiality of a "Master 3DS", as Metal B stated, actually sounds hypothetically smart. Each entrant could take a turn on the 3DS that would have everything unlocked, and then they could all be connected to the Wii U versions. The only major hassle is that this would likely need to be done in advance.
Which would take an enormous amount of time, as even if we consider a (very, very generously low) download time of 10 seconds, then an additional 10 seconds for each user to shuffle around the 3ds, that's still 21 straight minutes of people just standing around playing hackey sack with the master 3ds for a 64 man tournament. And again, that's assuming it takes a fairly blazingly fast and efficent 20 seconds per transfer - even an addition of five more seconds turns this into a 26.6 minute wait. Half a minute per person, you get 32 minutes. The longer the 3ds transfer takes, and the longer people take (and people aren't perfect), the more dramatically this time of literally doing nothing but standing in a line and waiting for your turn rises. People aren't going to be willing to deal with that hassle, and it's a complete logistical nightmare. Even for 32 man venues, it can take 16~ minutes if everyone only takes half a minute with the 3ds.

Then there's the hassle involved in actually cultivating and managing this 'master 3ds' - what happens if it gets lost? Broken? Stolen? Do we need to make a new master 3ds, and if so, what happens if it can't get the same equipment before the next major tournament? How does this master 3ds get transferred between tournaments? What happens for side avenues which don't have access to the master 3ds, are they just SOL? What if someone tries to BS their way past the master system anyways, and tries to use their own custom equipment (which is a royal pain in the ass to check for each and every user)?

There are just way too many issues with a 'Master 3ds" system that, even if it is possible (and it likely will not, the Monster Hunter 3ds game has Wii U transfer capibilities but deletes the 3ds saves on transfer from 3ds to wii u, so we can use that as historical precedence), such a system wouldn't be very viable.
 
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Elthon

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Not trying to to get the thread alive since all points have been pretty much hit, but I want to say I'm willing to take a massive hit on my attack and defense to get my speed boosted by a significant amount. I'm in love with Mario and speed boost but I'm heart broken that I won't be able to use him competitively. Sucks :/ I'm in no way trying to get easy kills but the agility boost makes for great combos and fast paced and a sweaty match. Which I will add I have not had since Project M and Melee.
 
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