Should SSBB be less technical then SSBM?

[bbb]

Dude, one to two, maybe three button techniques = easy

L cancelling = Definately intended to be in the game

 

[RedSoxFan3]

we love the idea of sitting in front of the tv for hours on end trying to get tht HRC distance jus tht little bit further, we love having to spend forever mastering SHFFLing, WD DD DL and everything. thts what makes the game so ****ed good coz its a pro game were u can always get better. to make the moves easier to do is to undermine the idea of a pro game

if u disagree then ur not really a gamer, are u!

If you want to play a hard game, go play Super Ghouls N' Ghosts. I like thinking games. Smash is one of them. I think it can be a better thinking game if you get rid of the technical bs. But just go ahead enjoy your technical bs.

Edit: You speak like SSBM is the meaning of life! ZOMG!

Note to self: Don't scare people by threatening their sole reason to live!

 

[Chromeless]

If you want to play a hard game, go play Super Ghouls N' Ghosts. I like thinking games. Smash is one of them. I think it can be a better thinking game if you get rid of the technical bs. But just go ahead enjoy your technical bs.

Edit: You speak like SSBM is the meaning of life! ZOMG!

Note to self: Don't scare people by threatening their sole reason to live!

As much as I agree with you, I doubt insulting them will help our cause.

 

[Zenjamin]

/sign to shorten the "homework" ascpect of the game

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=84572

 

[Miharu]

If you want to play a hard game, go play Super Ghouls N' Ghosts. I like thinking games. Smash is one of them. I think it can be a better thinking game if you get rid of the technical bs. But just go ahead enjoy your technical bs.

Edit: You speak like SSBM is the meaning of life! ZOMG!

Note to self: Don't scare people by threatening their sole reason to live!

No point in playing a game that any ****ing scrub can pick up in less than a day. Might as well go play some Sesame Street game for 3 year olds.

As was stated earlier, the whole point of advanced techs is to separate those who dedicated time to this game, and those who haven't. If Smash were to be dumbed down to that extent, the tournament scene would disappear, since any scrub could pick up the controller and be waveshining in 1 hour, and everyone would be too equal.

Smash isn't even a thinking game. You think FIGHTING games are meant to be heavily mind based, like a game a chess? If so, then you're sorely wrong because you need a certain level of technical skill to be able to play this game proficiently in the upper tiers of gameplay. If your proposal to assign every tech to a button were taken, everyone would be reduced to the same level, and the need to constantly polish and sharpen technical skills wouldn't be there, and the need to improve to be better than the next person would disappear as well.

You indeed, do sould like someone who's be waveshined one too many times. And apparently, you can't perform the said skill, and now want a crutch to help you do that.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

What I think you fail to realize, is that Smash is not comparable to a Game of Chess. There is no time between attacks, for you to spend countless minutes thinking of what to do next and how your opponent will react. Smash is about split-second decision making and trying to read your opponent and how they would react. Smash already has a very solid foundation for mindgames without any of the advance techniques in the equation. Not to mention being incredibly fun. Advance Techniques simply 'expand' and 'enhance' this already stable and incredibly addictive gameplay.

Removing Advance Techniques will be... well... just Smash. Its not just about "Technicalities", its about "Advanced Technicalities". It's what seperates the casual gamer to the expert gamer. Just because Advanced Techniques are in the game, DOES NOT mean that the casual gamer cannot enjoy Smash. That is what makes Smash such a unique and great game. It's tons of fun for people who dont know anything about advanced techs, but at the same time its just as much fun for players who spend countless hours training and practicing advanced techs.

I agree with some of your points. It is true that the simplicity of Down+B to grab a Turnip, is much more player-friendly than in a game like Street Fighter, Marvel vs Capcom, or Capcom vs SNK 2. The ability to perform attacks at ease, certainly is one of Smash's strong points. But I find that all your asking for is for Smash to just become "Easier" plain and simple. Two seperate buttons for Short-Hopping? No need for L-Cancelling? All that would do, is decrease the boundaries and just blur every ranking of players all over. The game would lose advance techniques, and probably wouldn't even be considered in the competitive gaming world. It's kind of like, whats the point of making a tournament, when EVERYONE can do what everyone else can do with the same ease. Like I said earlier, What makes Smash so Special is that a beginner can pick-up-and-play and have a tremendous blast, yet a Veteran can practice hours on end and still not master every advanced technique and incorporate it well into his meta-game.

Don't forget.. I think your placing Technicalities far to high. They really aren't game breaking in comparison to some other fighting game Advance Techniques (Magneto's ROM, Sakura ShoShoSho, and a whole slew more to name a few). It's not as if "Oh you can wave-dash, that means you'll win". Smash is nothing like that. It's not as if "Oh you L-Cancel every single one of your Aerials, I stand no chance". Smash is nothing like that either. Being able to do advance techniques simply shows the opponent that you have taken the time to practice, learn, and train in these techniques. They may give you a slight advantage, but either way... If you've spent the time to learn these techniques and your opponent did not, You flat out deserve to have a slight advantage.

So, in conclusion I'd have to disagree with removing Technical Moves in Smash. Infact I'd rather they add EVEN more! Since SSBB has the possibility of being Online, so the training people will have, against a large variety of opponents, will TREMENDOUSLY increase the end-game tournaments.

I believe it was Isai who once stated "Just don't get hit." Smash is as simple as that, advance techniques or not

Amen. and L-canceling/shorthop/wavedash aren't that hard to do...

Mr. RedSox, playing video games involves moving your fingers. In a game like smash, making your character move faster or do 'better' things involves moving your fingers faster, and timing your attacks better. Knowledge of the game takes a few days, maybe up to 2 weeks. But there is still so much more to the game, and advanced techniques make this elevated gameplay possible. Besides, victory in SSBM revolves heavily on psyching out your opponent. You mentioned it is because anyone can do most character moves. That is correct. Any unexperienced player will tell you Marth is insanely 'cheap' because of his forward smash. When you're good, if you go around fsmashing all over the place, people will call you a 'noob' and you will lose respect in their eyes. Advanced techniques expand mindgames from luring someone to a dodge, and hitting them in their lag, to wavedashing in, wavedashing out [dodging the attack], and hitting them with a Marth tipper. A level of uncertainty is added to the game.

Just a few thoughts.

=] manLi

 

[Gaudion]

I don't think Wavedashing was meant to be in the game at all, so I wouldn't mind seeing that go. Everything else needs to stay as is. Really, none of it is hard at all. Anyone can pick up short-hopping and L-canceling in five minutes of practice or less. The trick is just keeping a cool head and doing it on command in the middle of a fight, which will seperate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. And based on that, there's no reaon why we need to destroy the tech system as is. What do you want, a game that plays itself like FFXII is going to?

 

[bbb]

a game that plays itself like FFXII is going to?

Back in my day, we called those movies.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

You indeed, do sould like someone who's be waveshined one too many times. And apparently, you can't perform the said skill, and now want a crutch to help you do that.

Since we are throwing out judgements.

You are afraid some new guy is gonna come along and kick your ***. **** do you know how many times I've heard conversations from competitive Smash players that talk about how they wanted to give up smash because they lost to so-and-so. You guys are so obsessed that you can stand losing to someone you feel has put in less time and effort. Maybe they have been working smarter than you have. Maybe they really are good, because they have a deep understanding of the game.

You think a fighting game has to be a game requiring massive technical skill to separate good players from bad players. Tell me then why there are so many dumb players who have the technical skill, but still get ***** by the really good players? SSBM has mind games. That is what makes Smash a good game, not the massive technical skill required to be the best in the world.

The good players are still going to **** the scrubs regardless if the scrubs can do waveshines and all that other technical stuff. They aren't going to know how to use it, they aren't going to know how to trick their opponent. They aren't going to know how to use advanced tactics. I bet you players who are really smart with their mind games along with their technical skill, could still beat those scrubs easily without using any advanced techs. If they can't do that, then they really aren't that great imo.

I think a tactics-based fighting game would be much more enjoyable than a battle of dexterity.

As a final note, I'd like to use SSBM as an analogy to pitching and hitting. Both require massive technical skill, but both also require 'mind games' or thinking strategy. Keeping hitters off balance, or choosing the right pitch to swing at. Both are very difficult to do at the major league level. However the best pitchers in the game, can still throw shutout ball even without their best stuff. Some of the best pitchers in the game, don't have a 98 mph fastball. They just outthink the best hitters in the game, with 87-88 mph fastballs along with decent curveballs and change-ups. Nothing spectacular by any means.

Do I think baseball should change? Nope, baseball is perfect. No part of technical skill involved in the game is unnecessary.

SSBM there is most certainly unnecessary technical skill required. Spacing is a technical skill that I feel is wonderful and completely necessary. Perfect timing of l-cancelling is not necessary. If it takes months of practice to do, and your opponent has no control over the outcome of your success on l-cancelling, then it's unnecessary. When does your opponent have any affect of how good your wavedashing is? When does your opponent have any control over whether or not you will bair/waveland with luigi?

Spacing is constant struggle. You are both constantly trying to space one another. You have dash dancing, wavedashing and various other things that can help you space properly, but having highly technical ways to space isn't really necessary, because your opponent doesn't have control over it. Because you messed up a wavedash, now you get hit, rather than you being able to usmash them for the win. But when did your opponent cause you to mess up your wavedash?

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

zOMG. I've actually read each post in this thread. Guys, lcanceling and wavedashing are not hard to do. REALLY. if i could underline really, i would. oh, i guess i can. REALLY. Dashdancing= no brainer! wavedash= a simple understanding of timing! lcancel= an optional way to allow your character to execute more moves. Takes a week, maybe, to learn well. These things aren't hugely difficult, and just like in real life, if you want to do well in something, you have to input to yield better output. You can still 'master' these moves by leaving them as they are. It wouldn't necessarily be easier to 'master' them by assigning them buttons. By 'master' I mean using them effectively to improve your gameplay. It just seems like a lack of dedication to something you really love if you complain that the actual imputting of the buttons is too much work or a waste of time. Few of the advanced techniques are beyond human ability = the average person's hands can handle drillshining, lcanceling, and DASH DANCING. Now, doubleshine, that's a little different. But how often do you see people doubleshine?? =P only in 'Adventure'.

Advanced techniques don't have to be used.
If someone wishes to refine their gameplay, advanced techniques allow them to do this.
Everyone is capable of learning advanced techniques.
Advanced techniques can separate a very good fox from a great fox.
Everyone wants to be a great fox!
Why not put the effort in???

 

[RedSoxFan3]

Amen. and L-canceling/shorthop/wavedash aren't that hard to do...

Mr. RedSox, playing video games involves moving your fingers. In a game like smash, making your character move faster or do 'better' things involves moving your fingers faster, and timing your attacks better. Knowledge of the game takes a few days, maybe up to 2 weeks. But there is still so much more to the game, and advanced techniques make this elevated gameplay possible. Besides, victory in SSBM revolves heavily on psyching out your opponent. You mentioned it is because anyone can do most character moves. That is correct. Any unexperienced player will tell you Marth is insanely 'cheap' because of his forward smash. When you're good, if you go around fsmashing all over the place, people will call you a 'noob' and you will lose respect in their eyes. Advanced techniques expand mindgames from luring someone to a dodge, and hitting them in their lag, to wavedashing in, wavedashing out [dodging the attack], and hitting them with a Marth tipper. A level of uncertainty is added to the game.

Just a few thoughts.

=] manLi

But how the does the fact that wavedashing in and out, thus dodging the attack, need to be a technially difficult thing to do in order for it to add depth to the game? Other than the required timing on your part to move in and out as your opponent attacks, I don't see how it needs to be much all that much harder than stationary dodging(timing wise) to still add depth to the game.

This manuever does require a greater degree of timing then stationary dodging. And it also has a greater benefit to perform this move instead of a stationary dodge, because of the zero lag time, this means you can avoid being grabbed, or being hit by a move with a long duration.

However do you really need to involve the technical skill involved in jumping and then air dodging into the ground to make SSBM a better game? Is the concept and depth of psyching out your opponent by wavedashing in and out really all that different if you can wavedash with one button push rather than two perfectly timed button pushes and one tilt of the control stick?

If anyone can explain what depth this technical complication adds to the game I will concede and agree with you technical peoples. And don't just tell me because it requires lots of practice. Making something that requires practice isn't necessary if it doesn't need to require lots of practice.

Timing the wavedash in and out to effectively dodge your opponents attack, does require lots of practice and it will always require lots of practice. It's not like we can just say, oh you don't have to push 5 buttons to do this move anymore now you can just push one. Nope you are still going to have to require good timing no matter what, because you are doing something in response to your opponent.

I'll equate this to powershielding. Should powershielding be hard? Yes! The timing is very hard and should be. It's in response to your opponent shooting something at you.

Should teching be really hard? Well this depends. If you are hit with an fsmash and you fly through the air and hit the ground? No. Your opponent isn't moving the ground to mess up your tech. Should teching be really hard if your opponent is dsmashing you on the edge of the platform and now you have to wall tech? Yes, because the timing required to do this is in response to what your opponent is doing.

This is my philosophy. If it's a technical skill that is required to have in response to something your opponent does, then by all means it can be difficult. Otherwise, you should have control over the movements and actions of your character without requiring massive technical control.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

zOMG. I've actually read each post in this thread. Guys, lcanceling and wavedashing are not hard to do. REALLY. if i could underline really, i would. oh, i guess i can. REALLY. Dashdancing= no brainer! wavedash= a simple understanding of timing! lcancel= an optional way to allow your character to execute more moves. Takes a week, maybe, to learn well. These things aren't hugely difficult, and just like in real life, if you want to do well in something, you have to input to yield better output. You can still 'master' these moves by leaving them as they are. It wouldn't necessarily be easier to 'master' them by assigning them buttons. By 'master' I mean using them effectively to improve your gameplay. It just seems like a lack of dedication to something you really love if you complain that the actual imputting of the buttons is too much work or a waste of time. Few of the advanced techniques are beyond human ability = the average person's hands can handle drillshining, lcanceling, and DASH DANCING. Now, doubleshine, that's a little different. But how often do you see people doubleshine?? =P only in 'Adventure'.

Advanced techniques don't have to be used.
If someone wishes to refine their gameplay, advanced techniques allow them to do this.
Everyone is capable of learning advanced techniques.
Advanced techniques can separate a very good fox from a great fox.
Everyone wants to be a great fox!
Why not put the effort in???

I don't want to be a great fox! Cause Fox is boring as hell to play!

 

[Blind]

Part 2 of my unnecessary post chronicles.

Here's how I see it: if the game is too easy to become proficient at, then we as competitive players have no game to play. Why?

Well, if the game did not have the same kind of depth to it, how could we continuously come up with new combinations and strategies? If the game was incredibly simple from the start, then the most efficient tactics would become obvious almost immediately. Then it would be a contest between who could master the best stuff the fastest. That kind of a game has no competitive lifespan to speak of.

The metagame has to continuously evolve, where part of being the best means constantly searching for new and better tactics. If that kind of search cannot happen, then the game soon becomes stale.

Where does technical skill fit into this? Well, for starters, why should there only be a mental aspect of this game? Why should the game hand victory to you because you came up with a plan? If you can't execute your strategies, then you hardly deserve victory.

Some people say this game is too hard, technically speaking. Well, my answer is this: I'm sorry you feel that way. But no matter how easy it becomes, someone will always complain. And you will also wind up with WAY more people complaining about it being too easy.

So you don't want to practice a lot to become proficient? What kind of a competitor are you? You don't want the game to feel like work? Newflash: Competition IS hard work. There's a life lesson here; you set a goal, and you plow through the crap until you reach the treasure. No pain, no gain. Suck it up, be an adult.

You want a wavedashing button? How about a waveshine button? Hell, let's cut out the middle man and put a "win" button on our controllers. First one to press it gets 60 percent of the entry fees. MLG will bite on THAT idea right away.

If you don't want the game to feel like work, then you're not a competitor. Honestly, I've got no beef with casual gaming. But it's not HARD to just do f-smash with the c-stick. You see that? There's a yellow stick that lets you do the most powerful attacks in the game by moving your thumb a centimeter. The game is already VERY easy for anybody to pick up. But if you want to be REALLY good, you can't just declare it. You have to work. And work sucks.

So don't work for it if you don't want to. We will forget about you, and we'll celebrate all the players who figured out what they wanted, and didn't stop until they got it.

Rant over.

 

[JJJ]

I feel there needs to be a level between mastering the basic techniques of the game (anything you can learn offline...which for some is more than others) and the advance techniques shared over websites most super smash players don't know exist. I find it fine if there is a high technical level (haven't mastered all advanced techniques yet...but working ) but there needs to be a natural linear progression...not a ooooo I CAN BEAT A LEVEL 9! to....all the advanced techniques

my 2 cents

 

[y2kbakura]

And y2kbakura: grab a dictionary and a sedative.

rolf

yeah im kinda mad that people dont realize what defines a true figthing game
cause in other figthing games you go to 2 or 3 tournaments and then you never lose to someone who's just a scrub because you learn mindgames , but in this game you see people goin to tournaments and then getting beat by scrubs who spam like 2 moves and it pisses me off. that happens because the mindgames are weak in smash. think about it if you dont use any techs like WD,shffles,dashdancing ect. everything is a 50/50 you either do this or do that. when you use techs you expand the game even further so its no longer a 50/50

if you dont believe me go do your reaserch instead of disaggreen with me
NOBODY else but the smash community believes this game is a real figthing game.
if Nintendo makes the techs easier for the scrubs it will eliminate what little edge we have over noobs

that being said if Nintendo makes the game easier i'll take out my **** and piss on the wii

 

[Chromeless]

rolf

yeah im kinda mad that people dont realize what defines a true figthing game
cause in other figthing games you go to 2 or 3 tournaments and then you never lose to someone who's just a scrub because you learn mindgames , but in this game you see people goin to tournaments and then getting beat by scrubs who spam like 2 moves and it pisses me off. that happens because the mindgames are weak in smash. think about it if you dont use any techs like WD,shffles,dashdancing ect. everything is a 50/50 you either do this or do that. when you use techs you expand the game even further so its no longer a 50/50

if you dont believe me go do your reaserch instead of disaggreen with me
NOBODY else but the smash community believes this game is a real figthing game.
if Nintendo makes the techs easier for the scrubs it will eliminate what little edge we have over noobs

that being said if Nintendo makes the game easier i'll take out my **** and piss on the wii

Out of all the 'real' fighting games I've played, Smash is by far the one where skill with the basics counts the most. There are many tournamentmatches in Street Fighter where people spam attacks, well, in Smash doing anything repedetively will get you killed by anyone who half knows what they are doing. I have played so so many matches in Tekken, Soul Caliber and the like where an ignorant player has been able to get in a ton of hits without knowing what the heck they are doing its not funny, yet never have I played a propper match of Smash which I believe didn't come down to raw skill.

Do you really believe that noobs have that much on anyone who knows the game? Fighting games do not 'need' to be technical to play well, trust me on that one, I know because I am currently programming one myself and I am crafting every aspect of it to be as intuitive as possible, all I can do is ask you to believe me when I say that skill is the only thing that counts here dispite a complete lack of anything technical. Smash Bros. with the proper mechanics implimented, does not need technical skill is order to be a compedetive fighter, heck Street Fighter doesn't even require technical skill to achieve the same thing either, just ask Sirlin or anyone else who plays SF on a mindgame/reactionary level.

As long as the game is properly balanced (doesn't allow players to WD all over the place willy nilly etc.) I fail to see how Brawl could devolve into something so closely resembling its own namesake. At the very least I side with JJJ in that I absolutely believe that the divide is far too 'clean cut' for what its worth, we do not need this massive artificial divide at the veyr least.

Whether or not the game needs a technical side and whether or not you would prefer it to are completely seperate issues. I have no reason to believe that Smash has any need for technicality beyond timing and would prefer it not to, you on the other hand would prefer it either way. I can't say that this comes down to anything more then a difference of opinion sadly.

In any case, I've heard people say that Smash isn't a fighting game because it allows four players to play, that it isn't a good fighting game because the characters aren't balenced enough, that 'all good fighting games have a technical aspect' and so on. I've seen tons of fighting game fans who think Smash is nothing more then a children's party game simply because they don't know any better. Can you please tell me what you believe a 'true fighting game' is, because I really don't know.


I respect your preferences, but I still have every reason to believe that an untechnical Smash would work.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

I don't want to be a great fox! Cause Fox is boring as hell to play!

hehe it was a joke. Of course it doesn't have to be fox. I'd like to hear what you have to say about the rest of what i said =[

 

[J03]

sorry chormeless, ur views and thoughts are well thought of and, in many ways well founded, but i think alot of ppl are missing the point about smash.

smash is not a game tht any person can pick up, complete and return within a week, or even a month...or even a year.

smash represents a game with almost unlimited (and definatly unmatched) potential. this is because anyone can play/enjoy the game, any1 can spend a hell of a long time completeing all the 1P modes/trophies and such and even enjoy a mess around with a few of there friends.

then there is the other side...

some1 buys the game and spends forever completing it but instead of stop playing it... get better at it. this is were the technical side comes in. alot of the techs are really/fairly easy to do and only take time to implement them fluently into ur game. others take months and years to master using mind games and exp doubled with techs and timing tht are not only impressive but tht not every1 can do, we all kno what these techs are. there the ones were u see them 4 the first tym and think OMFG i can never do tht. but then eventually after a hell of alot of practice u can.

smash is about a game tht u can always get better at, it represents a game tht pro's can flock to and be provided with a challenge, coz i dunno about u but v.few games are challenging anymore and to find one tht is not only challenging but ****ed near takes up all of my tym is a rareity tht i lyk to bask in. so if u dont want a difficult technical smash game then jus dont use the difficult techs in the game, but to make the techs easier is to just take the challenge away for us who enjoy a difficult game.

to summarize ssbm is a game tht every1 can enjoy and is a game tht provides even the most accomplished gamers with a challenge because of the skill/timing/mindgames and experience needed to master the game. thus far smash has been technical, if brawl isnt then it simply wont be as popular with the pro scene, which would be a poor choice in my eyes.

thx

 

[Blind]

If you are losing to newbs who just spam attacks, then you are not good at this game. Plain and simple. I promise that if I encounter a poor player, I do not need to dashdance, wavedash, SHFFL, or even L-cancel at all to win. I just have to know what I'm doing.

 

[y2kbakura]

Out of all the 'real' fighting games I've played, Smash is by far the one where skill with the basics counts the most. There are many tournamentmatches in Street Fighter where people spam attacks, well, in Smash doing anything repedetively will get you killed by anyone who half knows what they are doing. I have played so so many matches in Tekken, Soul Caliber and the like where an ignorant player has been able to get in a ton of hits without knowing what the heck they are doing its not funny, yet never have I played a proper match of Smash which I believe didn't come down to raw skill.

Do you really believe that noobs have that much on anyone who knows the game? Fighting games do not 'need' to be technical to play well, trust me on that one, I know because I am currently programming one myself and I am crafting every aspect of it to be as intuitive as possible, all I can do is ask you to believe me when I say that skill is the only thing that counts here dispite a complete lack of anything technical. Smash Bros. with the proper mechanics implimented, does not need technical skill is order to be a compedetive fighter, heck Street Fighter doesn't even require technical skill to achieve the same thing either, just ask Sirlin or anyone else who plays SF on a mindgame/reactionary level.

As long as the game is properly balanced (doesn't allow players to WD all over the place willy nilly etc.) I fail to see how Brawl could devolve into something so closely resembling its own namesake. At the very least I side with JJJ in that I absolutely believe that the divide is far too 'clean cut' for what its worth, we do not need this massive artificial divide at the veyr least.

Whether or not the game needs a technical side and whether or not you would prefer it to are completely seperate issues. I have no reason to believe that Smash has any need for technicality beyond timing and would prefer it not to, you on the other hand would prefer it either way. I can't say that this comes down to anything more then a difference of opinion sadly.

In any case, I've heard people say that Smash isn't a fighting game because it allows four players to play, that it isn't a good fighting game because the characters aren't balenced enough, that 'all good fighting games have a technical aspect' and so on. I've seen tons of fighting game fans who think Smash is nothing more then a children's party game simply because they don't know any better. Can you please tell me what you believe a 'true fighting game' is, because I really don't know.


I respect your preferences, but I still have every reason to believe that an untechnical Smash would work.

who the hell are you, are you a top player in other figthing games?
no your not, so dont tell me you know waht your saying.
true in other figthing games you dont need technical skill as much because the mindgames are superior, but your wrong by saying that you can just spam attacks in games like tekken or soul caliber. Tournament machtes where the players just spam attacks in Street figther?

you gotta be ****ing kiding me. those players would get killed by any player who knows what he's doing. all he has to do is set him up for a disadvantege with pokes, but guess what smash doest have a poking game, but you would know all that because your a skilled player who knows other figthing games(sarcasm)

Brawl is gonna have the same engine as Melee so guess what same **** is gonna happen
there is not goin to be a solid mindgame to abuse, so the techs are gonna be needed in order to win, before you reply to this go out there and win a major tekken tournament with just dandomly spamming moves and you'll see how far you get.

 

[J03]

If you are losing to newbs who just spam attacks, then you are not good at this game. Plain and simple. I promise that if I encounter a poor player, I do not need to dashdance, wavedash, SHFFL, or even L-cancel at all to win. I just have to know what I'm doing.

exactly, but 2 able to make ur opponent think ur usin HAX...thts knowing what ur doin ^^

oh and y2kbakura. thx for reassuring me tht ssbb will b as technical as its predessesor /phew

 

[Blind]

y2kbakura, of course you need some degree of technical control. If you don't have options, there is no room for mental work. But how many tournaments do YOU win at Smash? How many opponents can you read well and punish accordingly? Can you do that to the top players? In all honesty, I continue to learn more about reading my opponent each day, and the more I do, the more I slaughter players like you who think it's all about tech skill.

Learn to play pal.

 

[Angrylobster]

Blind basically put everything I thought about this topic into words. He wins the thread hands down

Oh yeah, think of it this way. Say we assign wavedashing to a single button like some of the people in this thread want. Wouldn't this make something like wave shining EXTREMELY abusable since it would be so much easier to accomplish now? so in a way its good that some techniques require timing and skill, because it makes something that could break the game almost impossible to do for human hands. I personally dont feel like seeing every single scrubby fox player be able to pick up a controller their first time and then waveshine me accross the level 5 minutes after their first attempt at playing the game.

 

[MonkeyMan]

Blind basically put everything I thought about this topic into words. He wins the thread hands down

Oh yeah, think of it this way. Say we assign wavedashing to a single button like some of the people in this thread want. Wouldn't this make something like wave shining EXTREMELY abusable since it would be so much easier to accomplish now? so in a way its good that some techniques require timing and skill, because it makes something that could break the game almost impossible to do for human hands. I personally dont feel like seeing every single scrubby fox player be able to pick up a controller their first time and then waveshine me accross the level 5 minutes after their first attempt at playing the game.

nice! see that's what i mean! props man i couldn't make much better of an argument before but that's one point you can't ignore

 

[Sensai]

Angrylobster, you bring up a good point.

If things such as WDing were easily accesible (spelling), waveshining would be much more easily abused.

I don't have time to read all the posts between this and my past one, sorry. Gonna go hang with the girlfriend and play some Tetris...haha.

And Chromeless, I agree with you that a less technical Brawl would work. Hell, it might work BETTER, seeing as how most of the characters would be closer to balanced. But the added depth of the WD/etc allow for the game to grow and flourish as it has in these 5 years since it's release.

And not all pro-players use technical moves. Look at Aniki. I watch his vids all day in school, and I don't think I've EVER seen him WD. Of course, he L-Cancels everything, but in higher level competition, that's a necessity.

WD is not necessary. It only enhances the gameplay.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Easy Game = Gets Old Fast. That's all there is to it. Once you master a game, it becomes pretty **** boring. The reason fighting games have so much replay value despite all the levels being almost exactly the same, and all the characters having punches, kicks, and throws is because it's hard to really master a fighting game. The same holds true for SSB: While mastering the character is easy, mastering the character to his/her full potential by using technical skill takes a long time (mastering character with tech != being able to use tech. You have to know when it's useful and be able to use it in those situations to your advantage - Not just SHFFL and WaveDash around the level like a chimp).

 

[Miharu]

Angrylobster, you bring up a good point.

If things such as WDing were easily accesible (spelling), waveshining would be much more easily abused.

I don't have time to read all the posts between this and my past one, sorry. Gonna go hang with the girlfriend and play some Tetris...haha.

And Chromeless, I agree with you that a less technical Brawl would work. Hell, it might work BETTER, seeing as how most of the characters would be closer to balanced. But the added depth of the WD/etc allow for the game to grow and flourish as it has in these 5 years since it's release.

And not all pro-players use technical moves. Look at Aniki. I watch his vids all day in school, and I don't think I've EVER seen him WD. Of course, he L-Cancels everything, but in higher level competition, that's a necessity.

WD is not necessary. It only enhances the gameplay.

That's true, and I pretty much agree with your post.

The advanced techs have made SSBM the game it is for me. Before I learned about these techs, all smash was a rolling and c-sticking fest, it slowly lost its appeal after every match degenerated into spamming rolls and fsmash with Roy. I thought I was the best, when I really wasn't, and I tired of this monotonous and repetetive matches. I put SSBM away for about a year; then I learned about techs, and my interest for SSBM sparked again. Then I came upon the tourney scene just a few months ago, and it was a new learning process all over again. No one will ever be the undisputed best of the world, not even Ken. There will always be someone right behind you, ready to displace you if you slip.

Since we are throwing out judgements.

You are afraid some new guy is gonna come along and kick your ***. **** do you know how many times I've heard conversations from competitive Smash players that talk about how they wanted to give up smash because they lost to so-and-so. You guys are so obsessed that you can stand losing to someone you feel has put in less time and effort. Maybe they have been working smarter than you have. Maybe they really are good, because they have a deep understanding of the game.

No? You've "heard" of something; one instance doesn't represent jack ****. If I get my *** handed to me, so be it. I'll just improve since that loss just serves as greater motivation. It's also a reason why game-breaking glitches are banned in tournaments: anyone and everyone can do them within the course of 1 hour of hearing of them. And IF this is implemented, you think we'll handicap ourselves? Probably not, but it would make the game less satisfying to play, since you could win without dedicating any effort to the game. There's really no challenge in that, and therefore, SSBB wouldn't be regarded as a tournament-worthy game. It'd just be some crap-*** second rate game that would be regarded as trash, since any newb could pick it up without devoting any time. It's not parallel if you decide to use someone who is exceptionally smart as your example; then all is not equal.

You think a fighting game has to be a game requiring massive technical skill to separate good players from bad players. Tell me then why there are so many dumb players who have the technical skill, but still get ***** by the really good players? SSBM has mind games. That is what makes Smash a good game, not the massive technical skill required to be the best in the world.

The majority of tech skills don't require massive techinical skill; they just require to input some effort and practice to get a decent end result. To be good, you have to have good tech skill. Have you noticed, that at the top of today's smash scene, all of the top 25 are proficient with tech skill? It's not something that you can choose not to have; if you don't have it, you'll be ruthlessly destroyed. It's the level of mindgames that separate the two. Point is, if you're not even willing to put in a minimal amount of time to learn some basic techs, you probably don't have the proper mindset to compete with those who do. Laziness gets you nowhere.

The good players are still going to **** the scrubs regardless if the scrubs can do waveshines and all that other technical stuff. They aren't going to know how to use it, they aren't going to know how to trick their opponent. They aren't going to know how to use advanced tactics. I bet you players who are really smart with their mind games along with their technical skill, could still beat those scrubs easily without using any advanced techs. If they can't do that, then they really aren't that great imo.

Point is, scrubs have never learned how to waveshine because of their mindset. In regard to the bolded portion of text, you don't need advanced techs to beat someone that doesn't know them. Period. But the higher you go, everyone has tech skill, and then mindgames really come into play. If someone really does have the mindset to outsmart the top pros, chances are, they will devote the necessary time to learn those techs. If not, then they still are scrubs, since they have the tools at their disposal, but they're knowingly choosing not to use them. And that's their greatest flaw (in terms of this game, at least).

I think a tactics-based fighting game would be much more enjoyable than a battle of dexterity.

Then go play chess. What you've said in this quote was even disproved by what you said earlier. You said that "SSBM is a tactics based fighting game, that's what makes it so great." Tech skill is nothing without the proper mind to complement it, and vice versa.

As a final note, I'd like to use SSBM as an analogy to pitching and hitting. Both require massive technical skill, but both also require 'mind games' or thinking strategy. Keeping hitters off balance, or choosing the right pitch to swing at. Both are very difficult to do at the major league level. However the best pitchers in the game, can still throw shutout ball even without their best stuff. Some of the best pitchers in the game, don't have a 98 mph fastball. They just outthink the best hitters in the game, with 87-88 mph fastballs along with decent curveballs and change-ups. Nothing spectacular by any means.

Do I think baseball should change? Nope, baseball is perfect. No part of technical skill involved in the game is unnecessary.

SSBM there is most certainly unnecessary technical skill required. Spacing is a technical skill that I feel is wonderful and completely necessary. Perfect timing of l-cancelling is not necessary. If it takes months of practice to do, and your opponent has no control over the outcome of your success on l-cancelling, then it's unnecessary. When does your opponent have any affect of how good your wavedashing is? When does your opponent have any control over whether or not you will bair/waveland with luigi?

Lcancelling's timing isn't even that difficult. You have about 20+ frames to time the L-cancel, and that potential problem can be solved with a bit of practice. You think professional pitchers got to where they are today without massive amounts of DAILY practice? Of course not; they've dedicated their entire lives to their sport. Comparatively, you only have to give up a few weeks for SSBM. Heh. You think L-cancelling is unecessary? True, they have no direct control over whether you're successful or not, but if you're not successful, you'll get sorely punished by your opponent, assuming that they know what they're doing. That's an indirect influence. Say you're Falco. You don't want to get shield-grabbed by say, Ganondorf. True, Ganondorf has no direct effect on whether you Lcancel your dair on his shield or not, but if you miss your dair timing, you will get sheildgrabbed, which will lead to damage and a potential combo, and therefore a potential chance to win for said Ganondorf. And the point of playing is to win, is it not? So your opponent indirectly influences your choices and decisions.

Spacing is constant struggle. You are both constantly trying to space one another. You have dash dancing, wavedashing and various other things that can help you space properly, but having highly technical ways to space isn't really necessary, because your opponent doesn't have control over it. Because you messed up a wavedash, now you get hit, rather than you being able to usmash them for the win. But when did your opponent cause you to mess up your wavedash?

Not using given tools to your advantage is a poor argument. You're just handicapping yourself, and an opponent who is playing to win won't give half a **** about that. Wavedashing is necessary for spacing if you're playing as the space animals. I'm assuming that you're playing to win; if not, this whole argument is pointless. You want to space properly so you get a hit in. Assume that you are Fox, and your opponent is Marth, with both being at killing percentages (say around 100%). So you know that the Marth is going to fsmash you if you get close. So you dash torwards him. If you do WD backwards, then he whiffs his fsmash, and you're able to get a JC usmash on him, allowing you to win the game. Conversely, if you somehow flub up your WD, you'll get fsmashed, and you'll lose. Your opponent pressured you into messing that wavedash up, since you knew that if you messed it up, you'd lose.

My viewpoint is that you're advocating for a watering down of the game, to lessen the amount of technical skill that is needed to be competetive in SSBB. It's still possible to have fun WITHOUT said skills, but advanced skills are called advanced for a reason. Referring back to your sports analogy: those pitchers invested years of their lives perfecting their pitches; hell, they practice almost every day of the god**** year, or else they'll be out of practice. If they're out of practice, they start to lose games, and eventually, they'll lose their job. Those pitches took time and effort to hone, to be made to what they are now. Same with advanced techs in SSBB or SSBM. Practice is needed; you can't expect to get something for nothing. If you want to play this game for fun, just casually, go ahead, no one's stopping you. But don't complain that SSBM requires a massive amount of technical skill, when there's other games like MvC2 that require a hell of a lot more technical skill if you're going to play on the tournament scene.

This **** isn't hard. If you don't want to invest time to get a better end product, then don't even bother with it, and don't make it less enjoyable for the rest of us.

Sorry for the wall of text, but this is one topic in a while that I've actually taken interest in.

 

[Sensai]

RedSoxFan3, I haven't read any of your posts, nor have I seen anything you've said with the exception of what my good mate here Hydro Kirby quoted...

That being said, I feel it necessary to state:

You just got pwned.

 

[EmuKiller]

Actually, I understand where RedSoxFan is coming from. You eliminate the casual gamer from the competitive fun.

One of the great things about SSB in general is that you can play it either as a competitive fighting game or a fun party game, tons of items and lots of chaos or one-on-one fighting.

However, isn't the point of a fighting game to require a large ammount of skill? I would not like SSB as much if it was easier to master. As far as playing SSBM competitively, I'm a n00b. But I am still able to do advance techniques like wave-dashing, L-canceling, etc. It took maybe a week or two weeks of die-hard practicing for me to wave-dash effectively. Now all I need to do is work on the mind-games aspect.....but i digress.

Point being, if Brawl was less technical, I would have less fun. It would turn into a simpler fighting game like the original smash was, which all be it a great game is not as fun as Melee. If it was less mind games, the tiers would be even more diverse. It would be all about who had the most range or did the most damage. If you want a game with less technical skills, maybe try the original.

Another thing: Brawl is most probably (if not inevitably) going to be online. This means more competitive practice. Meaning that even if advance techniques are "hard", you will be able to get more competitve practice. Several of the people I play smash with are at college now, so having online play would mean I can get more practice in rather than just a tourney every other month. Playing more means getting better faster. So in theory, it would take less time to get good at the mind games and the technical skills.

Again, I digress. Overall, Brawl would do well to keep it technical. As a large change in gameplay would cause several die-hard fans to lose interest (i.e. Halo 1/ Halo 2).

 

[@ce]

Add more techs.

No offense man, but seriously come on. Smash Brothers is not a job. It's not going to give you greater meaning in life because you mastered yet another tech in some silly game.

That's what this is all about. People want their time sinks and feel good about accomplishing something that doesn't matter. Why not just simplify the game down to its core? It's about anticipation and mind games. That's what people should be enjoying about the game. If you want to go master some stupid game, then do Rush Runs through Super Ghouls and Ghosts.

Go play World of Warcraft, that's a better way to waste your time.

And finally one last thing. Tell me, if technical skill does not matter, then why does Jiggs own Fox when the technical skill of both players are average, but when technical skill becomes polished, that Fox player ***** Jiggs every single match?

I'm sorry but I simply don't see your point.

Aren't you kinda dictating your opinion? I personally like having a challenge in front of me to master. True its a time sink but it doesnt take long to master moves. It may take some ppl long to master sh or waveshining, but i think the game is already ok on the tech skill learning curve.. i learned everything in the game by just practicing them while me and my friends played matches. then all of a sudden we all were able to do it consistently. who actually takes time out to just practice one move?? thats boringgg.

But anyways i kinda agree with ya. It wuld be nice if they gave l cancelling a slightly larger frame window but still smaller than teching so a person could mess up if they aren't trying. Its hard introducing ppl to smash and teaching them moves when they cant even short hop .. kinda discourages them.

This game is a mix of techskill and mindgames, and it sounds like you want it to be more on the mindgames side because you believe the techskill over powers the mindgames.

P.S The jigglypuff got ***** by the technical fox because while the fox increased its techgame, the jigglypuff did not increase its mindgame. Mindgames> techskill because there's a limit to how fast a character moves. theres no limit to ur mind! hahah

 

[RedSoxFan3]

I will concede to the fact that many people really enjoy the technical challenge of SSBM, they like how the advanced techniques are difficult to achieve, yet are very rewarding. That's the whole point of MMORPGs. It's so freaking addicting and fun I know.

But anyway, I'm going to make this post short and sweet. I'll keep my logic simple and one step at a time, because I don't think everyone has understood my thinking.

I'm going to assume that an increase in being able to use advanced techniques makes you better at the game, because you have more options at your disposal, then your opponent. I will also say that at a higher level of play, mindgames become increasingly prevalent, because everyone has more options at their disposal. The game becomes more complex, because people can do more things.

I'm saying you don't need technical skill in SSBM, outside of timing and spacing. You just need enough options to make the mind games heavier.

And as far as the work thing goes. Work shouldn't suck if you enjoy what you do.

Smash is a mix of technical aspects and mind games. I don't like the technical aspects all that much. I like mind games more. I'd be perfectly content studying videos all day to figure out the mistakes in my mind games or watch videos of other players to learn something from their gameplay. However, I don't find it interesting to sit alone and practice the technical aspects of the game anymore. That blows.

Sure it's rewarding, but don't you want to enjoy the ride? I want to do something that is not only rewarding, but something I love to do. If SSBB doesn't give me what I want, then I might look into learning another fighting game that is heavier on mind games.

Not using given tools to your advantage is a poor argument.

Okay you didn't understand what I meant at all. Here's what I wrote again.

Spacing is constant struggle. You are both constantly trying to space one another. You have dash dancing, wavedashing and various other things that can help you space properly, but having highly technical ways to space isn't really necessary, because your opponent doesn't have control over it. Because you messed up a wavedash, now you get hit, rather than you being able to usmash them for the win. But when did your opponent cause you to mess up your wavedash?

I was saying that wavedashing and dash dancing don't need to be highly technical for them to make the game better, but taking them out of the game would obviously suck.

The additional options that advanced techniques provide definitely add to the game, however I think these additional options should be designed to be performed more easily, that's all I'm saying with all of this.

The advanced techniques that we've discovered in Smash, should be taken and incorporated into SSBB and made easier to perform.

The game will be more in depth this way. It will be more complex, because there will be more things you can do.

To bring this back to chess, even though many of you will not like this.

When you look at two of the best players in the world, make like 20 moves and they've only traded pawns once. There's still 38 pieces all lined up aiming at each other, the game is complex, it's hard, the person who is better is going to win.

If you simply make the characters more versatile via making the advanced techniques easier to perform, then you can design a game that assumes more options and with greater avenues for which the game designers can create their characers. And then there isn't a need for Smash to be as technical as it is now.

I just want to see the game require less technical skill, but at the same time add more things to the game to thicken the mind games.

However I am not against some technical skill being required to perform mind games. I'd like to see them expand on things like CC, IASA, DI, etc... Maybe give more options of things to do when you are lying on the ground or getting up off a platform.

I'd like to see them make ledgehopping for ganondorf easier to do if they are going to let him do it.

 

[Miharu]

I will concede to the fact that many people really enjoy the technical challenge of SSBM, they like how the advanced techniques are difficult to achieve, yet are very rewarding. That's the whole point of MMORPGs. It's so freaking addicting and fun I know.

But anyway, I'm going to make this post short and sweet. I'll keep my logic simple and one step at a time, because I don't think everyone has understood my thinking.

I'm going to assume that an increase in being able to use advanced techniques makes you better at the game, because you have more options at your disposal, then your opponent. I will also say that at a higher level of play, mindgames become increasingly prevalent, because everyone has more options at their disposal. The game becomes more complex, because people can do more things.

I'm saying you don't need technical skill in SSBM, outside of timing and spacing. You just need enough options to make the mind games heavier.

And as far as the work thing goes. Work shouldn't suck if you enjoy what you do.

Smash is a mix of technical aspects and mind games. I don't like the technical aspects all that much. I like mind games more. I'd be perfectly content studying videos all day to figure out the mistakes in my mind games or watch videos of other players to learn something from their gameplay. However, I don't find it interesting to sit alone and practice the technical aspects of the game anymore. That blows.

Sure it's rewarding, but don't you want to enjoy the ride? I want to do something that is not only rewarding, but something I love to do. If SSBB doesn't give me what I want, then I might look into learning another fighting game that is heavier on mind games.



Okay you didn't understand what I meant at all. Here's what I wrote again.



I was saying that wavedashing and dash dancing don't need to be highly technical for them to make the game better, but taking them out of the game would obviously suck.

You're kidding me. You think that WAVEDASHING and DASHDANCING are technical? Dashdancing just involves smashing the stick left and right quickly, and it takes at most 5 minutes to figure out the timing for that. Wavedashing is a bit harder, but not by much. Most can learn it in one day, but you need weeks, possibly months to be able implement it properly. That's where playing human opponents regularly would come in. If you think dashdancing and wavedashing are highly technical, then I have no idea what you would think of JCing, say, 20 shines in a row. That's technical, and inhumanly so.

The additional options that advanced techniques provide definitely add to the game, however I think these additional options should be designed to be performed more easily, that's all I'm saying with all of this.

The advanced techniques that we've discovered in Smash, should be taken and incorporated into SSBB and made easier to perform.

The game will be more in depth this way. It will be more complex, because there will be more things you can do.

I still don't understand why you want to make it easier, when the core advanced techs aren't really that hard to learn at all. Sure, they're hard to perform consistently in game at first, but it gets easier as you build experience, which is the situation with most, if not all things.

To bring this back to chess, even though many of you will not like this.

When you look at two of the best players in the world, make like 20 moves and they've only traded pawns once. There's still 38 pieces all lined up aiming at each other, the game is complex, it's hard, the person who is better is going to win.

If you simply make the characters more versatile via making the advanced techniques easier to perform, then you can design a game that assumes more options and with greater avenues for which the game designers can create their characers. And then there isn't a need for Smash to be as technical as it is now.

I just want to see the game require less technical skill, but at the same time add more things to the game to thicken the mind games.

However I am not against some technical skill being required to perform mind games. I'd like to see them expand on things like CC, IASA, DI, etc... Maybe give more options of things to do when you are lying on the ground or getting up off a platform.

I'd like to see them make ledgehopping for ganondorf easier to do if they are going to let him do it.

Well, I partially agree with this last section. I think the main barrier between our ability to understand each other is our difference in opinion on just how "technical," if you will, SSBM is at this point. Since, in my view, this stuff isn't that hard to learn if you just put some time and effort in it; and by no means am I exceptionally technically skilled. I regard myself as somewhere in the middle techskill-wise, since I know some people (one person, really) who can sit down for about 30 minutes after hearing about some tech, such as Falco/Fox's Phantasm Stall, and come up with a method to do it within that time frame. On the other hand, there are others, where tech skill just comes to them slower, and the process takes longer. However, I think what we all share in common is the desire to improve and get better, and that's what drives us to get better at this game.

Losing really isn't fun anyways. And as fighting games go, I think SSBM is probably one of the most noob-friendly games out there, since you don't have to input specific button sequences to perform one special move. That's a reason why I gave up SCII; the sheer amount of button memorization and the timing required for GIing and double button GIing was a bit too much. However, SSBM is pretty logical; if you want to do an attack that has an upward direction, all you have to do is tilt the control stick up, and press A or B. It's as simple as fighting games get, and yet the advanced techs add a whole new level that improves upon an already great game.

 

[y2kbakura]

y2kbakura, of course you need some degree of technical control. If you don't have options, there is no room for mental work. But how many tournaments do YOU win at Smash? How many opponents can you read well and punish accordingly? Can you do that to the top players? In all honesty, I continue to learn more about reading my opponent each day, and the more I do, the more I slaughter players like you who think it's all about tech skill.

Learn to play pal.

no dont get me wrong i've been to smash tournaments(i won one tournament got really lucky)

its not all about tech but im trying to argue that at a high level of play techs are used because they open the way for more mindgames
think about it why are fox and falco top tier? because of their techs
but a good player will not just randomly use them he will aplly the techs to provide more opportunities to set up his opponent using mindgames get it
what am saying is that if we water down the techs so anybody can do it without thiking about it devolves the game to a scrubier level

BTW even sometimes you need techs to win againts scrubs
example agressive fox Vs. pill-spammming scruby doc

even if the fox is a better player because he's gone to tournaments if he doest use techs
he can still lose if he's not very careful cause doc has properties that help him againts space animals

this has never happended to me cause i know better because i've gone to MLG's and learned mindgames
it has happened to my crew members thoutgh
however if they start using the techs they can win alot easier because the techs of the space animals eliminate alot of opyions some characters have

in conclusion your 100% rigth that mindgames beat tech
but you have to realize that tech skill, allows you to use even more mindgames
wich makes you the better player

 

[ChottoMK]

-Sigh.....-

I have almost read every post, until around page 5, where I only read the ones that intrigued me, but thats not the point.

I've been directed to this board by my friend, whom asked me if SSBB should be less technical than SSBM, which I answered...

No. Techs should stay.


This has been explained in the countless posts beforehand, but still.
Couldn't this dilemna be similar to DDR? (Pardon me.)

In DDR, there are the Easy songs, where the arrows fall at a nice, comfortable pace (From extremely slow to moderate speeds, but it's relative depending on how much of a DDR-er you are). This is fun for people that are trying out DDR, or hanging out with friends and going "Hey! It's DDR! Let's try it out."

Then there are the Hard/Tricky/Super-fast songs. Casual players may go "LOL, hard mode. Let's try it out/See how hard it is". Then when they find out that those songs may be too hard to do or too strenous to learn how to do, they step back and stick to the regular songs that they like. However, these modes are still completely enjoyed by the people that actually play DDR as a serious hobby.

For competitive DDR (Which I haven't personally experienced), the songs that are most likely used are the Tricky ones, where to some people arrows fall too fast a pace. So, competitions are for the ones that DDR as a "sport" and are [extremely] good at it.

Say Tricky mode is like Advanced Tactics:

You DO NOT to have to do them, but they are there for the ones that DO want to.

There is also no point in making them easier, because there will always be hard ones.

---(This comparison may be complete nonsense/jargon, so pardon me. I'm actually not fully concentrated on this topic, and I tried to say something that hasn't been already said)

 

[RedSoxFan3]

no dont get me wrong i've been to smash tournaments(i won one tournament got really lucky)

its not all about tech but im trying to argue that at a high level of play techs are used because they open the way for more mindgames
think about it why are fox and falco top tier? because of their techs
but a good player will not just randomly use them he will aplly the techs to provide more opportunities to set up his opponent using mindgames get it
what am saying is that if we water down the techs so anybody can do it without thiking about it devolves the game to a scrubier level

BTW even sometimes you need techs to win againts scrubs
example agressive fox Vs. pill-spammming scruby doc

even if the fox is a better player because he's gone to tournaments if he doest use techs
he can still lose if he's not very careful cause doc has properties that help him againts space animals

this has never happended to me cause i know better because i've gone to MLG's and learned mindgames
it has happened to my crew members thoutgh
however if they start using the techs they can win alot easier because the techs of the space animals eliminate alot of opyions some characters have

in conclusion your 100% rigth that mindgames beat tech
but you have to realize that tech skill, allows you to use even more mindgames
wich makes you the better player

What I'm saying is that much of the technical skill required to do the set of advanced techniques is unnecessary. It's an artificial barrier that the game creators made. You can decrease the tech skill to perform what are currently advanced techs down to more basic manuevers. This will makes smash brothers effectively heavier on the mind games.

I also have another theory. The evolution of smash has progressed quite a bit over the years. Just think how far the mind games have come over the past couple years. The amount of techs used at the pro level hasn't really changed all that much, yet we have still seen massive shifts in the tier lists. The game has become harder and the overall gameplay I could assume is better than it's ever been.

Look at a game like Starcraft. That game has changed a lot over the years. The strategies have changed and become more in depth then they were before.

Look at chess. The openings that people use now are completely different then they were even 20 years ago. If you go back 50 years, you'll see an even greater difference.

My point is that SSBM I feel hasn't been able to progress as fast as it could if there was less technical skill required to play at its highest level. The initial plateau of skill would be reached sooner by more people, thus the development of the game would be that much farther along making the competitive gameplay that much more complex and fun. I'd say we've had what about 2 or 3 years since everyone had mastered all the advanced techs in general tournament play.

What if within a few months everyone had acquired all the tech skill required to play Smash Competitively. Don't you think the mind games would be that much farther along. The game would be that much more intense at the tournament level? Funny how I never mentioned this in any of my previous posts. This was like one of the main thoughts as to why tech skill holds us back.

Edit:

You're kidding me. You think that WAVEDASHING and DASHDANCING are technical? Dashdancing just involves smashing the stick left and right quickly, and it takes at most 5 minutes to figure out the timing for that. Wavedashing is a bit harder, but not by much. Most can learn it in one day, but you need weeks, possibly months to be able implement it properly. That's where playing human opponents regularly would come in. If you think dashdancing and wavedashing are highly technical, then I have no idea what you would think of JCing, say, 20 shines in a row. That's technical, and inhumanly so.

I was just using those as an example. I do think wavedashing is a little tricky at first for the characters with really quick jump animations like Fox, or the really slow ones like Falco, Link and Bowser. Peach I think is probably the trickiest, because if you hold down the jump button too long, (ie anything not a short hop), you'll float instead of wavedash. But dashdancing really isn't all that hard to do. So I'll replace dash dancing with bair to waveland as Doc. That one is a little bit harder. Another thing that's hard as Doc is full jump pill double jump. You really have to get out that pill immediately or you won't be able to double jump.

 

[Blind]

And what I'M trying to say is that there SHOULD be a barrier. If you can't execute the techniques, then you don't deserve them. You don't get the 2 points in basketball just because you got into the right spot on the court, or you pump-faked some guy and now you have an open shot. You should have a combination of technical skill and mental ability in order to be skilled at this game. Thinking on its own is not enough, nor is technical skill. You must combine execution and thought to form a powerful whole. Smash is very fine where it is currently at, in terms of the technical game.

Oh, and sorry for making my previous post so abrasive, y2kbakura. For whatever reason I was in a crappy mood and I also misread your post, interpreting it as: "you only need tech skill." I agree (and have said for quite some time) that technical skill is necessary because it opens up more options FOR your mindgames, and that a combination of both is necessary. I simply posted poorly, and for that I apologize.

 

[Miharu]

Actually, the general level among the pros has also increased. If you look back, rolling was heavily prevalent in the early days of tourney SSBM. But nowadays, you have extremely tech-heavy players such as KDJ and M2K, and if anyone were to spam roll today, they'd get their *** handed to them faster than you could say "roll." The general technical skills of players of the two space animals is constantly increasing, and the Falco of today is nothing like the Falco of 3 years prior. The bar of technical skill is still rising, as new, obscure techs are being brought to attention and put to use.

The reason why I believe the techs should be left as they are in general is that if you water down the gameplay too much, it won't be challenging. Part of the challenge of SSBM for me, and I'm sure it's the case for many others as well, is to learn about and be proficient at using new techs all the time. I, for one, don't mind spending some time on it, since it's all a learning process anyways, and doing so with company only makes it more, not less, enjoyable.

Tech skill doesn't correlate directly with the development of mindgames. It's just another option to get around said attack and punish your opponent dearly. Mind games are pretty difficult to develop; you either have them, or you don't. You might think, "Well, pros developed their mind games over the few years they've been playing tourneys." Actually, that's just experience. The pros started out with a solid understanding on the outlook of the game, and they're just naturally better at predicting and outsmarting their opponents than the average smasher is. The massive amounts of experience gained through multiple tournaments only enhanced that. It may be true that being opposed to advanced techs causes you to think harder and try to use novel methods to overcome said techs, but that's only being exposed to them that causes it. That pushes the noob, as everyone once was, to learn these advanced techs. However, "mindgames" can't really be learned; if you're bad at predicting the actions of others, you can only develop your mindgames up to a certain point, and after that point, and an invisible ceiling stops you from progressing any further. Therefore, those with a higher starting point will thus have a higher ending potential.

To sum it up, I'm saying that advance techs are not crucial to the development of mindgames, but they just provide more tools to do so. But with a naturally higher base that's required at the pro level, mindgames will naturally develop at a quicker rate.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

In Response to Blind:

But there will be still be technical skill involved. It will just be technical skill based on spacing, timing, DI (not when you get hit, but as you are SHFFLing).

I just want to see l-cancelling a little bit easier. I can do it just fine if I whiff, and I'm not doing an up air with ganon or someone who flips their body upside down. However when I hit a person with the move, or hit someone's shield I pretty often don't get that l-cancel. That in itself takes a pretty long time to perfect or at least improve to a consistancy. For me I don't think competitive Smash begins until you can do this. The game and tactics and strategy don't begin until you can l-cancel consistantly whether or not you hit a shield.

Thankfully my main is Peach and I can float cancel, however that's why probably why I'm not great at l-cancelling, because I don't use it often unless I'm doing a DJC aerial like dair->uair, or bair w/ a fastfall. And most of the time missing an l-cancel won't mean that I'm gonna get punished. So that's the main reason my tech skill sucks, is because the rest of you guys are playing SSBM with your crazy waveshines and SHFFLing and I'm over here playing Peach.

In Response to Hydro Kirby:

See I have to disagree here. People will get better at predicting the moves of others, if that's what they practice. I think many people get really caught up in the technical aspect of the game and as a result don't work on their mind games. Mind games can be developed. I get a lot out of watching really good Peach players, seeing what mind games they use against their opponents, how they deal with certain situations. The limit that you set your mind games at is the limit it's going to be. If you say there isn't a limit, then there isn't. You just need to learn become more familiar with each situation. Watch videos of yourself playing and you can look at what things worked and what things didn't work. You can look at how your various opponents adjusted to what you did to counter his move and then in your next match, you can develop a strategy to counter that adjustment again.

 

[Miharu]

MikeG and Vidjo don't have crappy techskill.

Lcancelling was already made easier; Z-cancelling from SSB64 is pretty **** hard, and comparatively much harder than L-cancelling is. I don't see anything wrong with putting in a bit more practice to get L-cancelling down consistently. And it's a necessity as a space animal, because if you don't lcancel into a shine, you'll get sheildgrabbed, or the dair or other aerial might get CCed and you'll get punished for that.

And if you completely miss an aerial, with Peach and you don't L-cancel, it's less likely that you'll get punished for the following reasons:

1. The people you play with aren't that great and can't read you that well
2. Peach's aerials have high priority, and the bair is a sex move.
3. Your opponent is too far away to do anything, assuming that you really whiffed the move.

But as other characters, missed L-cancels, especially for the slower characters (Ganon, Falco/CF's dairs), failing to L-cancel results in getting grabbed, combo'd, and edgeguarded, and, which, in general is something that's to be avoided.

 

[Zenjamin]

After over a month of practicing L-canceling and wave-dashing, I can finally incorporate those techs into my actual gameplay.

And I would never give those techs up. I want every casual gamer out there to know that it is worth the time (if you have it) to learn them.

Teching is a very big deal. It has seemed to improve my game 10fold. (Though in reality its probibility not that much)



I have been playing smash for a long time, and as I played I got better.
Simply through having fun, I got better.
That’s what made smash so unique and so much better then all the other fighting games. You never had to force anything.

However, more then a year ago I hit a wall, bottomed out. My mind was moving faster then I could get my character to move.
So I stopped playing... until my new roommate introduced me the existence of techs


That’s when I decided to take the time to learn them, (luckily I have alot of free time on my hands)
once i finaly learned them, the wall was lowered and my game skyrocketed
And not because my skill, reaction time, or understanding of the game improved.
Nothing has changed in me but my ability to use techs.
Before I learned techs I knew where I needed to be to continue my combo but could not get there in time.
With techs, I can always get where my mind wants me to be.



Before I hit the tech wall my skill was definitely improving.
tech ability does NOT= skill
Techs are simply a tool to help you better use your skill.
So why do we deserve these tools more if they do not equate to skill? Because we had the time, the knowledge that the techs even existed, and dedication to invest in perfecting them. But that is not enough.
Smash is a wonderful game. And people who do not have those three things should not be stuck at that wall, they should not be heald back because the tools needed to pass that wall of techs are coveted by an eliete and small % of the smashers.
some just do not have the time needed to perfect techs, and what time they do have to play they perfer to be actually playing.




Let me reiterate
techs should not be removed. they are just tools for everyone to use (should they want to use them)
Infact, id like similar things to be added. Techs are a good thing, and as such, should be an integrated part of the game, for everyone.
We have the buttons, the only negative side effect of making techs an integrated part of the game would be a growing number of people worthy of competition. and I personally think competition is a good thing. its a huge part of why we play smash in the first place.
It would still take skill to learn how to properly use these tools, but they would be tools available to everybody.
Thus giving even more value to the actual skill needed to properly use these techs.






does anyone disagree with this? and if so, why?