Should Sheik/Zelda be considered one character

[chckn]

Before flaming read what I have to say and actually think on it. I was wondering how you guys in the sheik boards feel about sheik/zelda being considered one character or seperate on tier lists as well as in tournaments. I had always felt that since you do not rely on one to use the other then they should be considered seperate characters untill someone brought this to my attention. Is it unfair to use zelda lets say as your starting character for an entire tournament up until you run into a matchup that sheik has an advantage, and then switch over? If it is considered unfair then they should be two seperate characters correct? If not then shouldnt they be considered as one? Also what if someone cycles between sheik/zelda in between a match, who is their win considered to be under? Discuss....

 

[Zankoku]

I consider Zelda, Sheik, and Zelda/Sheik as three separate characters. Using one or the other individually is fine, and using both in the same game involves a significantly different playstyle.

 

[chckn]

I consider Zelda, Sheik, and Zelda/Sheik as three separate characters. Using one or the other individually is fine, and using both in the same game involves a significantly different playstyle.

so on a tier list, should there be zelda, shiek, and zelda/sheik listed? Also how much does a character need to use zelda in order to be considered zelda/sheik?

 

[popsofctown]

If you pretend Zelda and Sheik don't have a down special, they'll be pretty midrange on the tier list. If you acknoqledge they do, they go up much higher.

Some games I play as Sheik, some i play as only Zelda, some i play as Sheik and Zelda. But i consider Sheik and Zelda one character in all three. I'm just using the Sheik part of the blended character for one matchup, using the Zelda part for another.

Some people only use Sheik or only use Zelda. So you could say they need their own spots on tier lists. But i think those players have just decided not to master the whole character, just the aspects they like, and their game is suffering for it. So if we put Sheik and Zelda by themselves on the tier lists and put S/Z on there too, i think that's the same as having:

*Tier List*
Snake (dash cancelled upsmash mastered)
Meta Knight
Snake (dash cancelled upsmash ignored)
G&W
Falco (able to Short Hop Double Laser)
.....

so on.

 

[chckn]

If you pretend Zelda and Sheik don't have a down special, they'll be pretty midrange on the tier list. If you acknoqledge they do, they go up much higher.

Some games I play as Sheik, some i play as only Zelda, some i play as Sheik and Zelda. But i consider Sheik and Zelda one character in all three. I'm just using the Sheik part of the blended character for one matchup, using the Zelda part for another.

Some people only use Sheik or only use Zelda. So you could say they need their own spots on tier lists. But i think those players have just decided not to master the whole character, just the aspects they like, and their game is suffering for it. So if we put Sheik and Zelda by themselves on the tier lists and put S/Z on there too, i think that's the same as having:

*Tier List*
Snake (dash cancelled upsmash mastered)
Meta Knight
Snake (dash cancelled upsmash ignored)
G&W
Falco (able to Short Hop Double Laser)
.....

so on.

yeah makes sense, correct me if Im wrong, but I really see the only sensible way of listing them now as s/z. The problems start at tourneys where ppl complain that your cping when you start sheik after having started zelda the whole tourney.

 

[slickmasterizzy]

shiek/zelda should be considered one character. but im in the minority on these boards =(

i like to watch my opponents strategy and sometimes depending on how "wise" they are to shiek... change if nessecary.
plus sometimes all my good moves are "stale" so ill switch.

though if you catch me on wifi i just about never touch zelda just because add in a little lag and she feels too cheap to me to play.

i dont like playing cheaply. i dont feel good when i win.

 

[Tristan_win]

Personally, I'm for the whole Sheik, Zelda, Sheik/Zelda different tier positions over just combing them back into one character again.

If Zelda wasn't good enough to compete on her own then I think they should be brought back to gather but Zelda can fend for herself just as Sheik can it's just that Sheik is usually even more capable with Zelda backing.

I think it should go by kills. If someone starts a match with Sheik and transform even once to Zelda for the kill then it should be mark as Sheik/Zelda win.

 

[Squidster]

I can't see sheik alone being useful vs sheik / zelda except in a few situations (where killing might hard with zelda.)

I can, however, see zelda being better than sheik / zelda in some situations.

I still don't understand why sheik refuses to use fireballs. We all know who you are now, just shoot magic asploding needles!

 

[KRDsonic]

If you pretend Zelda and Sheik don't have a down special, they'll be pretty midrange on the tier list. If you acknoqledge they do, they go up much higher.

Some games I play as Sheik, some i play as only Zelda, some i play as Sheik and Zelda. But i consider Sheik and Zelda one character in all three. I'm just using the Sheik part of the blended character for one matchup, using the Zelda part for another.

Some people only use Sheik or only use Zelda. So you could say they need their own spots on tier lists. But i think those players have just decided not to master the whole character, just the aspects they like, and their game is suffering for it. So if we put Sheik and Zelda by themselves on the tier lists and put S/Z on there too, i think that's the same as having:

*Tier List*
Snake (dash cancelled upsmash mastered)
Meta Knight
Snake (dash cancelled upsmash ignored)
G&W
Falco (able to Short Hop Double Laser)
.....

so on.

That's why I also think they should have their spot on the tier list if it's both of them. I'll use your analogy. Right now the tier list is basically:
Meta Knight
Snake (dash cancelled upsmash ignored)
G&W
Falco (not able to SHDL)

not putting them as 1 character together basically is like making a tier list without taking all aspects of other characters into consideration too.

 

[popsofctown]

yeah makes sense, correct me if Im wrong, but I really see the only sensible way of listing them now as s/z. The problems start at tourneys where ppl complain that your cping when you start sheik after having started zelda the whole tourney.

At first i thought you were talking about transforming, but now i think you are talking about portrait swapping. That is, clicking the other character in the box after putting Sheik or Zelda's name down for double blind picks. (or, after winning a round, selecting Zelda or Sheik, watching the counterpick, and then swapping portraits)

In self interest, obviously i would want portrait swapping would be permitted. However, from a neutral perspective there is a separate reason that portrait swapping should be standardized and allowed.

That reason is: for Sheik and Zelda's usefulness (goodness, strength, whichever adjective. Meta Knight has a lot of it but C Falcon doesn't have much) to be standard across all tournaments one of these two things must happen:
a. Portrait swapping is permitted across the board.
b. Number of lives is standardized in every tournament.

The implied statement here is that if portrait swapping is not permitted, and lives are not standardized, Zelda and Sheik's usefulness will fluctuate from tourney to tourney. This is true. The reason why is that the more lives that are in a match, the less Z/S are punished for in-game counterpicking. For instance, if i use Zelda against Meta Knights (but start as Sheik). If i enter a two stock tournament, and i come up against a Meta Knight, I would probably down special immediately. With a good combo, Meta Knight could maybe punish that with something like 30% damage, and furthermore get me up in the air, where Zelda is weakest. I have the rest of that life and the next one to make up the difference.
Now if i enter a 4 stock tournament and come up against Meta Knight, I downspecial again. He will do 30% damage, but that won't be nearly as much of a problem. I have the rest of the match to catch up. This is how Sheik and Zelda power fluctuates if portrait swapping is not allowed.

If stocks are standardized, then it's fair to not permit portrait swapping. Players will experience the same disadvantage every time.

If portrait swapping is allowed, then it doesn't matter what the stocks are at all. the 30% doesn't occur. This would be the more flexible option, allowing tournaments that need to be over faster to use less stocks, without invalidating comparisons about Sheik and Zelda's performance across different tournaments.


Anywhoo, this crazy long wall of text definitely came out of nowhere. Sorry, these are the sort of things i think about when i can't fall asleep at night.


@KRDSonic : could you repeat your view? I can't tell if you are expressing that you disagree with me or agree.

 

[Squidster]

usefulness (goodness, strength, whichever adjective. Meta Knight has a lot of it but C Falcon doesn't have much)

Burst out laughing ._.

I love you XD

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i consider Zelda/Sheik 1 character. i use one more than the other depending on the situation but their kinda like the PT to me. if your only using 1 of them then your not making full use of the character.

 

[-Mars-]

it depends on the matchup, if i'm playing a really fast character i almost have no choice but to use sheik

 

[KRDsonic]

@KRDSonic : could you repeat your view? I can't tell if you are expressing that you disagree with me or agree.

I'm just saying, most tier lists place zelda and sheik separately as if they can't switch, so they aren't placing them based on their full potential, though they do for everyone else.

 

[-dMT-]

I definitely agree that Z/S should be 1 character. That was the intention, if not they would have both received new down specials and would have been put separately.

In Melee it was different b/c Sheik >>>>>>>> Zelda, and honestly changing to Zelda was a bad option for Sheik. It was just failure in the balancing dept.

In Brawl it feels more like they are just 2 halves of a whole. It's more like not using Zelda is limiting yourself, as if putting a handicap on. I mean w.o gimping, Sheik really can't KO until after giving like 1.7x the dmg she takes. Against the heavier guys with great recovery and power (even speed *cough* ROB *cough*) it's more like 2x the dmg. Then you have Zelda with great KO potential, but in general hard to deal dmg and approach.

Sheik offense, Zelda defense and finisher. Other characters just use different attacks and play styles for offense/defense, whereas for Z/S, you have 2 separate move sets and stats completely. Sounds overwhelming and broken, but the catch is, you have to transform to access your other half.

So when your Sheik and you need to be defensive, your at a disadvantage, and on the contrary must hit the opponent far to transform. Sure we try hard to find ways to be defensive with Sheik, like needle camp, but to me it seems more like a temporary act of desperation.

I mean if you see a Sheik at 150% and you're at like ~100%, not much to worry about, go attack.However if the opponent is not Sheik but Zelda at 150% being defensive, and again you're at ~100%, you won't be so eager to approach, hesitation will occur, Zelda will capitalize.

In the end these details I thought of lead me to believe Z/S is ultimately a single balanced character and restrictions of any kind simply serve as handicaps.

All my thoughts in a nutshell.
(My laptop keyboard is broken and the On-Screen Keyboard is testing my patience, or else I'd have more for you people to read 0.o )

 

[Squidster]

I turn to zelda lots. I disagree that sheik can't play defensively, but zelda is definitely the more defensive of the 2.

 

[-dMT-]

I turn to zelda lots. I disagree that sheik can't play defensively, but zelda is definitely the more defensive of the 2.

Sorry, to clarify my earlier post, I didn't mean Sheik can't play defensively, but that compared to Zelda, it just isn't good enough. Zelda can punish a mistake MUCH harder and easier than Sheik, so to me it seems like using a defensive Sheik is just putting too much effort towards the wrong direction.

 

[stealthsushi]

I'd probably go with the Zelda, Sheik, Sheik/Zelda identification. The game itself obviously considers them as separate characters since a new character is loaded during the transformation (and thus resetting your attack decay >;] ). Also, Samus can transform into ZSS, but they have their own separate listings in the ranking lists. But you could argue that they should be lumped together like the Pokemon Trainer, but the switching is much more forced in that situation.

Most of the times when Sheiks transform in Zelda, its for a kill. But occasionally, I play certain matchups with just Zelda (like vs. MK) for an advantage; its definitely nice to be able to have two characters . A match that witnesses both Sheik and Zelda should be labeled under Sheik/Zelda imo.

 

[Squidster]

Zelda vs meta knight... i dont like that matchup... I also hate sheik vs meta knight... I think ima find a character JUST for that matchup.

Sheik and zelda together though have almost no bad matchups.