Should Planking (i.e. Ledgestalling) be Banned?

[choknater]

Haha oh man just wanna point out that illinialex24 you got the 1000th post in this thread.

I like the Plank quote that said "I didn't ledge camp Azen because he is too smart and beat it." Or something like that

 

[illinialex24]

Haha oh man just wanna point out that illinialex24 you got the 1000th post in this thread.

I like the Plank quote that said "I didn't ledge camp Azen because he is too smart and beat it." Or something like that

Ohh nice. I'm happy but it was only a matetr a time. I've got like a quarter of the posts in this thread lmao. And who was plank using?? Because remember a Peach can deal with planking relatively effectively.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Haha oh man just wanna point out that illinialex24 you got the 1000th post in this thread.

I like the Plank quote that said "I didn't ledge camp Azen because he is too smart and beat it." Or something like that

Yeah, I smiled pretty hard when I found it.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Yeesh, it takes a full 7-8 minutes to get positional advantage?

Well, at this point, I'm still leaning towards the ledge grab rule (my last two posts are kind of my last point on that), but banning planking is ridiculous. As I've explained, I still don't think the ledge grab rule bans planking at all. An outright ban on planking is completely unnecessary, and pretty ridiculous to even suggest.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Yeesh, it takes a full 7-8 minutes to get positional advantage?

Well, at this point, I'm still leaning towards the ledge grab rule (my last two posts are kind of my last point on that), but banning planking is ridiculous. As I've explained, I still don't think the ledge grab rule bans planking at all. An outright ban on planking is completely unnecessary, and pretty ridiculous to even suggest.

The issue is that a ledge grab rule would allow people to just wait til you cant grab the ledge anymore, thus, it doesn't do what it's designed to do, force some kind of approach. Your answer to this was to just...regrab less. That's all I really got out of it. Then it just forces the opponent to wait longer. If there's a limit on anything I'm going to just wait it out. There's no case you can make dude, you are in fact banning planking by limiting it.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

The issue is that a ledge grab rule would allow people to just wait til you cant grab the ledge anymore, thus, it doesn't do what it's designed to do, force some kind of approach. Your answer to this was to just...regrab less. That's all I really got out of it. Then it just forces the opponent to wait longer. If there's a limit on anything I'm going to just wait it out. There's no case you can make dude, you are in fact banning planking by limiting it.

Good stuff right here.

 

[Melomaniacal]

The issue is that a ledge grab rule would allow people to just wait til you cant grab the ledge anymore, thus, it doesn't do what it's designed to do, force some kind of approach. Your answer to this was to just...regrab less. That's all I really got out of it. Then it just forces the opponent to wait longer. If there's a limit on anything I'm going to just wait it out. There's no case you can make dude, you are in fact banning planking by limiting it.

(If that's all you got out of it... read it again)
Well, the point is that if you're not approaching, you're letting me stall more time without having to grab the ledge more. So, yes, I don't have to grab the ledge as much. This means that it's much, much easier to stall out much more time (maybe the entire clock?) without reaching 50 grabs (therefore not breaking the rule, so you lose). This means that you will still want to approach me, almost to keep me planking, in hopes of either ending my planking, or causing me to break the rule. Thus, planking becomes useful again. No ban.

But like I said, it's hard to say how it would work out; it needs testing. This is just how I think it would work out, once everyone becomes more comfortable with the rule.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Well, the point is that if you're not approaching, you're letting me stall more time without having to grab the ledge more. So, yes, I don't have to grab the ledge as much. This means that it's much, much easier to stall out much more time (maybe the entire clock?) without reaching 50 grabs (therefore not breaking the rule, so you lose). This means that you will still want to approach me, almost to keep me planking, in hopes of either ending my planking, or causing me to break the rule. Thus, planking becomes useful again. No ban.

But like I said, it's hard to say how it would work out; it needs testing. This is just how I think it would work out, once everyone becomes more comfortable with the rule.

And if I get uncomfortably close ******* around off stage without regrabbing the ledge is going to make my foot want to gimp you, which could probably be done after enough jumps. I could go on, I was serious, there is no case you can make, planking is camping the LEDGE, not OFFSTAGE.

 

[Melomaniacal]

And if I get uncomfortably close ******* around off stage without regrabbing the ledge is going to make my foot want to gimp you, which could probably be done after enough jumps. I could go on, I was serious, there is no case you can make, planking is camping the LEDGE, not OFFSTAGE.

Who said I'm offstage (did I even say "offstage"?)? It was argued that you could just "shoot lasers from the middle of the stage, waiting for me to break the rule," in which case I just hang on the edge and wait for you to approach (sooner or later you'll realize "oh ****, he' not going to break 50 grabs). So you are still forced to approach the planker, so planking is still useful.

Basically, my point is that it's not that hard to plank efficiently WITHOUT breaking 50 grabs. Therefore, you're STILL only hurting yourself by NOT approaching.

 

[Falconv1.0]

What do you mean who said you're off stage, we are talking about the guy planking. And I didn't argue anything about lasers because Falco is just a terrible character to fight planking with to begin with. I'm talking about someone with actual ****ing options here. When I get close to the edge while you are OFF it, you have to be constantly regrabbing it, and you're still not in a position to do too much to me while I wait for those regrabs to build up.

I JUST said this, you didn't even kinda address it. Dont bring up some other bs that I didn't say. You refuse to make a case for my argument that with this ban people who play characters that aren't **** off edge will DESTROY planking with a ledge grab limit. Even if your example worked, it would be effectively the same ****ing thing, serving the exact same purpose with a different look. Wow we've accomplished so much oh wai-


I still dont get what the **** we are arguing about. You want a ledge grab limit so they can still camp but cant camp forever? If it's not broken IT DOESN'T NEED A LIMIT.

 

[Nic64]

Unban stages that make planking, limited or undoable. Problem solved.
Simply don't play "neutral" stages against a planker.

seeing as the planker would most likely have CP advantage, that hardly helps at all.

 

[XienZo]

I dunno, its hard to quantify. I think though if there is major invincibility in the recovery and not much immobility or insane range as well (so MK, G&W and Jigglypuff's jump lightstep, not the sing one) should all be banned for planking.

But what is "Major"? What is the EXACT cutoff? And why does planking fall on one side of the cutoff if the supposedly-easy-to-counter HA stall is on the other?

What do you mean who said you're off stage, we are talking about the guy planking. And I didn't argue anything about lasers because Falco is just a terrible character to fight planking with to begin with. I'm talking about someone with actual ****ing options here. When I get close to the edge while you are OFF it, you have to be constantly regrabbing it, and you're still not in a position to do too much to me while I wait for those regrabs to build up.

He's just saying you can still force an approach with the rule active by planking, as you force them to "get close to the edge" to provoke you, so it doesn't hurt the "tactical" side of planking at all.

 

[Melomaniacal]

What do you mean who said you're off stage, we are talking about the guy planking. And I didn't argue anything about lasers because Falco is just a terrible character to fight planking with to begin with. I'm talking about someone with actual ****ing options here. When I get close to the edge while you are OFF it, you have to be constantly regrabbing it, and you're still not in a position to do too much to me while I wait for those regrabs to build up.

I JUST said this, you didn't even kinda address it. Dont bring up some other bs that I didn't say. You refuse to make a case for my argument that with this ban people who play characters that aren't **** off edge will DESTROY planking with a ledge grab limit.


I still dont get what the **** we are arguing about. You want a ledge grab limit so they can still camp but cant camp forever? If it's not broken IT DOESN'T NEED A LIMIT.

Alright, alright. Relaaaax. No need to get all worked up here, haha. The Falco thing was from a previous argument, which is what I was responding to, and you responded to that, etc. Whatever, not the point.

Let me make sure I'm understanding your argument here. You're saying that you do not need to approach the planker because with the rule in place, you could just wait for me to build up the ledge grabs, right ("The issue is that a ledge grab rule would allow people to just wait til you cant grab the ledge anymore, thus, it doesn't do what it's designed to do, force some kind of approach", "...If there's a limit on anything I'm going to just wait it out")? Well, I've already responded to that (aka, already "made a case for that argument").

The point of the ledge grab rule, in my eyes, is to prevent people from planking for literally three, four, five minutes straight. I have absolutely no problem with planking, but it's a bit ridiculous to allow people to sit there and try to plank 5 minutes straight. More or less to discourage people from thinking "LOL IM GONA PLANK U 4 EVAAARRR. PLANKING IS UNBEETABAAAL." Maybe even make it a bit more strategic.

 

[Falconv1.0]

What I'm saying is that if I get close you need to regrab the ledge a lot, maybe with Falco you can fly around and force the approach but not with others. And once again, either way, it's the same thing but with a new look. They are planking for the same reason something adhering to the ledge grab rule would, except they dont have arbitrary rules annoying them. I never said I was going to wait out in a position that's safe for you. If I'm waiting it out right next to the ledge you dont exactly get much of a choice as to what you should do. Plank, or get dair'd or something.

No, you have no addressed how you're not going to build up those ledge grabs if I get a bit too close, you'd have to stop planking, which means there was barely a reason to plank to begin with. This rule is very character specific, it ***** Falco and helps people with good edge options. You for like the third time fail to explain to me how you can plank chars like Kirby with this rule, something I keep yelling at you to do for a reason.

And I dont care what people think, it's not unbeatable, top players who face it often seem to agree it's not that broken, most of the people who use it are pretty cautious about who/why they plank, it needs no limit.

 

[XienZo]

No, you have no addressed how you're not going to build up those ledge grabs if I get a bit too close, you'd have to stop planking, which means there was barely a reason to plank to begin with. This rule is very character specific, it ***** Falco and helps people with good edge options. You for like the third time fail to explain to me how you can plank chars like Kirby with this rule, something I keep yelling at you to do for a reason. .

Is that an equivalent of an approach?

 

[Falconv1.0]

Is that an equivalent of an approach?

The idea I'm posing is that I'm close enough to scare him without really having to do anything. It's the equivalent of using bairs to stay a safe distance on stage without actually attempting to hit the target. Approaching infers I'm on the offense, no, I'm just forcing him to respond to a change in position. If this change forces him to go over the ledge grab limit, which it would if he decided to stay on the ledge, or get on stage, it effectively bans planking, because he know has to approach me instead of staying on the ledge.

 

[Melomaniacal]

What I'm saying is that if I get close you need to regrab the ledge a lot, maybe with Falco you can fly around and force the approach but not with others. And once again, either way, it's the same thing but with a new look. They are planking for the same reason something adhering to the ledge grab rule would, except they dont have arbitrary rules annoying them.

No, you have no addressed how you're not going to build up those ledge grabs if I get a bit too close, you'd have to stop planking, which means there was barely a reason to plank to begin with. This rule is very character specific, it ***** Falco and helps people with good edge options. You for like the third time fail to explain to me how you can plank chars like Kirby with this rule, something I keep yelling at you to do for a reason.

And I dont care what people think, it's not unbeatable, top players who face it often seem to agree it's not that broken, most of the people who use it are pretty cautious about who/why they plank, it needs no limit.

Well, you plank to get positional advantage right? So the advantage is either there or not. If it's not, I wait for the advantage. If I have the advantage, I stop planking and approach. If you're getting a bit close, I could probably get off the ledge and attack.

Well, I don't even think characters like Kirby should be planking in the first place, haha. As Lucario, I never plank, because it... doesn't work very well. I can sure as hell try, but it won't get me very far.
Oh, never mind, misread that. I don't know, get off the ledge to avoid getting hurt... like you normally would without the rule?

Honestly this isn't even worth arguing for me, because I barely even disagree with you. I agree with many of your points, and I don't think planking is broken or overpowered by any means. Although I am leaning towards the ledge grab rule, I'm really playing devil's advocate a lot here. Trust me, I'm with you on a lot of this.

 

[MajinSweet]

To the people saying "Brawl needs change" or "Brawl is what you make it", I just gotta say, that is complete Bull Crap. Sure, you could add items and bring back stages to make if offensive, but I can say that the vast majority of people would drop the game if the SBR actually suggested that. If you want real change of how the game is played, rules are not where to look. Rules are not going to change the lack of hit stun. The lack of shield stun. The slow game play. They won't lower the effectivness of rolling, spot dodging and air dodging. Brawl is what it is. If you really want a a more offensive or balanced Brawl, support Brawl+. Infringing on players rights with arbitrary rules is silly and wrong.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Well, you plank to get positional advantage right? So the advantage is either there or not. If it's not, I wait for the advantage. If I have the advantage, I stop planking and approach. If you're getting a bit close, I could probably get off the ledge and attack.

Well, I don't even think characters like Kirby should be planking in the first place, haha. As Lucario, I never plank, because it... doesn't work very well. I can sure as hell try, but it won't get me very far.

Honestly this isn't even worth arguing for me, because I barely even disagree with you. I agree with many of your points, and I don't think planking is broken or overpowered by any means. Although I am leaning towards the ledge grab rule, I'm really playing devil's advocate a lot here. Trust me, I'm with you on a lot of this.

...I didn't say Kirby was planking, I said he's forcing the other to stop planking not because he's attacking or because of some inherent advantage, but due to a limit.

Oh I know we agree on most things but I hate this idea of a limit on planking. It, like Majin said, infringes on our right to do something that is completely legal and beatable.

 

[Melomaniacal]

...I didn't say Kirby was planking, I said he's forcing the other to stop planking not because he's attacking or because of some inherent advantage, but due to a limit.

Oh I know we agree on most things but I hate this idea of a limit on planking. It, like Majin said, infringes on our right to do something that is completely legal and beatable.

I know, I misread that... twice, I think
Sorry, I'm juggling like three conversations right now, hard to focus. Well, that's one of those things I kind of agree with you on. I still doubt that the planker will reach 50 grabs anyway, and even if he does... just don't run the timer. Not that hard. But yeah, I definitely see your point.

 

[XienZo]

To the people saying "Brawl needs change" or "Brawl is what you make it", I just gotta say, that is complete Bull Crap. Sure, you could add items and bring back stages to make if offensive, but I can say that the vast majority of people would drop the game if the SBR actually suggested that. If you want real change of how the game is played, rules are not where to look. Rules are not going to change the lack of hit stun. The lack of shield stun. The slow game play. They won't lower the effectivness of rolling, spot dodging and air dodging. Brawl is what it is. If you really want a a more offensive or balanced Brawl, support Brawl+. Infringing on players rights with arbitrary rules is silly and wrong.

This would make a good advertisement....

...but isn't turning on food less arbitrary than 1.1 or 1.2 or 1.324523 gravity, along with all the other possible hacks?

...I didn't say Kirby was planking, I said he's forcing the other to stop planking not because he's attacking or because of some inherent advantage, but due to a limit.

Still, at the point where the Kirby has to at least close the distance between the two, wouldn't the goal of planking already be accomplished?

Also, if we do NOT have the rule, people are FORCED to approach the planker due to another limit- the time limit. What makes the grab limit arbitrary and limiting if (the arguably arbitrary) 8 minute limit is perfectly fine while still forcing people to move for reasons other than for better positioning?

 

[Nic64]

top players who face it often seem to agree it's not that broken.

skimming the poll results I see plenty of top players that voted for it to be banned, more than not I'd say. this is an appeal to authority fallacy and pretty irrelevant in any case, but I felt it was misleading

 

[AvaricePanda]

Still, at the point where the Kirby has to at least close the distance between the two, wouldn't the goal of planking already be accomplished?

What Falcon is trying to say is that, against a Kirby or Diddy, planking isn't effective with the ledge-grab limit, because they have options to counter planking anyway.

However, against a character like Falco, he still gets owned by planking (as far as we know, although I doubt that one will change any). If the Falco just stays in the middle of the stage, the MK can sit there on the ledge and not regrab. If the Falco tries to approach, the MK can just only plank then. He'd get under 50 or whatever ledge-grabs and still be able to win via planking.

Putting in the ledge-grab limit would favor characters like Kirby or Diddy, while Falco still gets owned by planking either way.

 

[Falconv1.0]

What Falcon is trying to say is that, against a Kirby or Diddy, planking isn't effective with the ledge-grab limit, because they have options to counter planking anyway.

However, against a character like Falco, he still gets owned by planking (as far as we know, although I doubt that one will change any). If the Falco just stays in the middle of the stage, the MK can sit there on the ledge and not regrab. If the Falco tries to approach, the MK can just only plank then. He'd get under 50 or whatever ledge-grabs and still be able to win via planking.

Putting in the ledge-grab limit would favor characters like Kirby or Diddy, while Falco still gets owned by planking either way.

Yes, thank you.

While Kirby and others can beat planking, the amount of work required with this rule makes it even easier.

 

[MajinSweet]

This would make a good advertisement....

...but isn't turning on food less arbitrary than 1.1 or 1.2 or 1.324523 gravity, along with all the other possible hacks?

Yes it is, I agree with you, but the fact of the matter is, the smash community as a whole will not be going back to items. It just isn't gonna happen. Brawl+ is highly unlikley to become any sort of tournament standard, but it has a better chance than items.

 

[Alus]

I just had a thought...

Cant a player make planking even less effective by counter picking a moving stage or a stage with obstacles (like Brinstar's acid.)

I mean... aside from seeking out your opponents planking errors.


Just a thought...

that should help with at least one match...

 

[adumbrodeus]

What Falcon is trying to say is that, against a Kirby or Diddy, planking isn't effective with the ledge-grab limit, because they have options to counter planking anyway.

However, against a character like Falco, he still gets owned by planking (as far as we know, although I doubt that one will change any). If the Falco just stays in the middle of the stage, the MK can sit there on the ledge and not regrab. If the Falco tries to approach, the MK can just only plank then. He'd get under 50 or whatever ledge-grabs and still be able to win via planking.

Putting in the ledge-grab limit would favor characters like Kirby or Diddy, while Falco still gets owned by planking either way.

Nah, not really. Actually Diddy is just really resistant to planking because of the projectile he has. Because of how he can make the banana hit you while on the ledge, I simply wouldn't plank against him, period, it just makes you vulnerable.


Falco doesn't need to approach, he can sit right outside of Mk's range and MK has to refresh the invincibility frames otherwise the position becomes very vulnerable.

Specifically because there's now a large window that Falco can use to attack, while with continuous refreshing there's only a very small one and it can be tightly controlled.

 

[XienZo]

Yes it is, I agree with you, but the fact of the matter is, the smash community as a whole will not be going back to items. It just isn't gonna happen. Brawl+ is highly unlikley to become any sort of tournament standard, but it has a better chance than items.

That depends. I mean, there's the matter that every single person who wants to be a competitive smasher not only must lose the scrub attitiute, but also must rent TP and get a SD card and go onto smashboards and look up the latest codes.

Or going with a controversial yet simple decision of going to Brawl>Options>Items>Low>Food

Putting in the ledge-grab limit would favor characters like Kirby or Diddy, while Falco still gets owned by planking either way.

Is that neccesarily an issue? We killed Sonic's potential placement as soon as we turned items off; its not like any of our other rules are unbiased to all characters.

 

[1048576]

You can hit a wallbombomg Peach too.

It's not stalling, she's just putting herself in an advantageous position, whatever that means.

Show me vids of a Peach winning with this tactic.

**** scrubs want to ban wallbombing

Several characters can do something about it.

 

[MajinSweet]

You can hit a wallbombomg Peach too.

It is not a matter of just hitting her.

It's not stalling, she's just putting herself in an advantageous position, whatever that means.

No, it is stalling because when the Peach player does this, its in the hopes that the match doesn't go on. Peach cannot even continue normal play once she starts wallbombing. If you go down there to kill her, you will die as well, then she can just go back and do it again with her new stock invincibility frames.

Show me vids of a Peach winning with this tactic.

It's a stalling tactic that leaves you at the bottom of stages, its stupid and just disrupts game play. You don't need videos.

**** scrubs want to ban wallbombing

Several characters can do something about it.

Not really, your satire fails. The very fact that you are trying to compare planking to wallbombing shows that you really don't understand anything about the situation. A planker will still attack you, you can still fight a planker. Stalling=/=Camping. It wasn't even required to learn if wallbombing is truly broken or not because stalling itself is banned. And there is no way you could argue that wallbombing isn't stalling. Planking on the other hand is ledge camping.

 

[Eddie G]

Actually wallbombing was just a silly tactical abuse anyway since the Peach could just force potential SDs for the opponent if she is ahead in stocks. Stalling is the last thing that would pop up in my mind when referring to wallbombing.

 

[1048576]

Peach can resume normal fighting after wallbombing. She gains a little height from performing it on FD anyway.

How can Falco fight a planker, pray tell.

Jiggs, Samus, Link can fight wallbombing Peach without SDing.

Planking is just as stupid and videos are just as unnecessary.

It is just a matter of hitting her. If you get ahead in percent, she can't do it anymore.

 

[Dantarion]

I think wallbombing is a form of planking/stalling

You are forcing your opponent to do something that puts them at a drastic disadvantage in the hopes that you will run out the clock, or force them to rush into the bad situation.

If I am DK and Peach is way under the stage....All I can do is stand there. Even if Peach is ahead, jumping off and trying to hit her isn't going to help me, as I have a large change of dying.

Yes, there are characters that can throw projectiles down there, or characters that can jump down there and get back, but it changes the match from "Fighting" to "Hit the wallbomber" especially if peach does it EVERY time she gets in the lead.

There are matches on youtube of what happens when people plank/stall every single time they get into the lead. It leads to boring, fustrating gameplay, which isn't fun to play, or fun to watch, and is one of the reasons people shun Brawl in the first place.

Defensive options > Offensive options. Why attack when you are winning?

 

[GwJ]

Most of your post was fine except for the "fighting" to "Hit the wallbomber" part. That's the same thing. by hitting the wallbomber, you are fighting.

gg

And sorry about the occasional uncapitalized words, my shift button seems to not be working that well.

 

[Irsic]

I just had a thought...

Cant a player make planking even less effective by counter picking a moving stage or a stage with obstacles (like Brinstar's acid.)

I mean... aside from seeking out your opponents planking errors.


Just a thought...

that should help with at least one match...

Yup, and that doesn't win you a set.

And the planking player can do his best to ban stages where planking is highly ineffective, like Brinstar or Norfair.

Losing what's CPd against you doesn't matter if you win the 1st and 3rd matches.

 

[XienZo]

I think wallbombing is a form of planking/stalling

You are forcing your opponent to do something that puts them at a drastic disadvantage in the hopes that you will run out the clock, or force them to rush into the bad situation.

If I am DK and Peach is way under the stage....All I can do is stand there. Even if Peach is ahead, jumping off and trying to hit her isn't going to help me, as I have a large change of dying.

Yes, there are characters that can throw projectiles down there, or characters that can jump down there and get back, but it changes the match from "Fighting" to "Hit the wallbomber" especially if peach does it EVERY time she gets in the lead.

There are matches on youtube of what happens when people plank/stall every single time they get into the lead. It leads to boring, fustrating gameplay, which isn't fun to play, or fun to watch, and is one of the reasons people shun Brawl in the first place.

Defensive options > Offensive options. Why attack when you are winning?

Note that if you are DK and the opponent is a DDD standing on the stage with a percentage advantage, all you can do is stand there, as jumping towards him and hitting him has a large chance of you dying.

The problem is, people can just mark things like this off as character disadvantage, and its your fault for using DK when you could have used Pit.

There needs to be another reason to require a ban, like hurting the metagame. In the wallbombing case, its because it limits the # of viable characters down to a point where it hurts the metagame more than removing the technique would.

 

[1048576]

planking overcentralizes the meta so it should be banned. Got it.

 

[XienZo]

planking overcentralizes the meta so it should be banned. Got it.

Metaknight or metagame?

It hurts random characters, including top tiers like Falco, and helps random characters, like low tiers like Jigglypuff, so it increases some character's viability as well.

 

[1048576]

Same with wallbombing. Pichu, Kirby, and Mewtwo could own that trash. Marth, Fox, Falco, and Sheik cannot.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Metaknight or metagame?

It hurts random characters, including top tiers like Falco, and helps random characters, like low tiers like Jigglypuff, so it increases some character's viability as well.

Jigglypuff may have an easier time beating planking but she's still trash vs Metaknight, you're giving a horrible example. It doesn't increase viability for anyone it only slightly hurts some characters. This stupid idea of a ledge grab limit does, it hurts the characters who have trouble with it and anyone with any sort of an option against it make planking useless. The ledge grab rule only hurts viability, not increase it.

Why is everyone in this thread insane now.