XxBlackxX
Smash Ace
well...i think everyone that contributed to this thread has argued their opinion on this many times, and we are not at a conclusive decision. what else is there to say at the moment?
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Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)
- Thread starter GofG
- Start date
- Status
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
This. First there's the policy on banning. A character will only be banned if choosing that character is the only viable option when trying to win. However, this is not the case. So MK should not be banned. A certain amount of people even think Snake has a good matchup against MK, this means Snake is favourable over MK instead of dittos. So MK should not be banned.
Just a note, if items were enabled you could win an entire match without ever picking up an item. This means using items is not the only viable option when trying to win (If they're allowed) so items should be enabled.
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
Are you blind? I was talking about characters. Now get out.
gantrain05
Smash Master
snake is not "favorable" over MK, he just does "decent" he's still disadvantaged. what it comes down to is, a person playing MK has an auto-advantage to ANY character except for another MK, sure there are close matchups like maybe some 60-40's or maybe even 55-45, but the fact is no matter who you choose you are at an auto disadvantage.
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
No. If you would have followed several discussions, you would have known a big amount of pro smashers think Snake has the advantage. And it still doesn't matter, because tournament results don't support you. They show MK is not the only viable character.
I'm not blind, I was demonstrating that something being "Not the only option to win" is not a good justification to allow it.
Get better reasons for not banning him.
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
No. This is the current policy for banning characters. Items are banned for another reason and are not relevant to this discussion because of that.
What is the definition of viable? What if banning that character increases competitiveness? Shouldn't we be trying to find the optimal state for the metagame, not the state that requires the least work for us?
You can't say "Snake IS favorable over MK" just by saying a "certain amount of people EVEN think Snake has a good matchup against Snake".
You need to find proof those people say that, you need to prove those people know what they are talking about, and you need to prove that what they say is most likely true.
Flamingo777
Smash Apprentice
VOTEBAN: METAKNIGHT.. 1 VOTE REMAINING 
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
Increasing competetiveness? To what level? Banning characters or making every single character equal to each other? I can't decide this and neither can you.
Yes I can, because people like Mew2King have actually stated this.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
That is your current opinion for banning characters.
Since a character has never been banned, you can't say what the policy actually is. It may not be as strict as you're claiming.
You can say what it isn't -- simply being most popular is not a reason to ban. But at the same time, the policy from Melee can't directly apply because MK combines aspects of at least two of the best characters from Melee. So he's better than any character that hasn't been banned, and you can't say "We didn't ban X so we shouldn't ban MK" because of it.
Quit using your opinion as fact.
Ya know, you gotta prove M2K wouldn't be biased. Because, after all, he kinda DOES use MK...
Finding the optimal metgame, where we have the highest sum of both competitiveness AND people. A good metagame needs both to suceed, and thats why banning all except one character is bad; no one wants to play such a game, and no people means the metagame doesn't advance. Thus, we must find the number of characters to ban which is the optimal number for the best metagame possible.
I can't decide it, but I can deduce that the optimal state is not guaranteed to be neither no characters banned, nor all but one character banned. Thus, it is likely we should look into this, instead of saying MK does not meet some criteria.
XxBlackxX
Smash Ace
Yes, because everything M2K says is gonna be 100% right ALL the time, right?
/sarcasm
i mean, M2K is a GREAT smasher obviously and i definitely think he knows what he is talking about. but the argument that whatever the best players state is automatically fact is stupid.
basically, find your own reasons for wanting to ban/not ban him. don't just follow the crowd or the great players.
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
Doesn't mean it's not true, Shadowlink. Mew2King is one of the best players in the world, why question his and others opinions if there's no reason to?
Salabosomething:
Why say MK has at least two Melee character blabla crap? It's not true. And yes, it IS the current policy.
Xienzo:
Yes Mew2King does use MK, but it doesn't mean anything. He has stated why MK should not be banned, this specific matchup wasn't mentioned.
Playing a game competetively means doesn't mean having as much people playing the game as possible at all. It doesn't matter. A "good" meta game isn't needed for a game to advance. Enough people will play the game regardless, and it's up to the people that want to make a difference to this metagame, not to the number of people.
You DO know European results differ from US results, right? In certain parts of America, MK doesn't even place top eight. MK doesn't even come close to those criteria.
Black-idiot:
No. M2K (among other people) is most likely right or at least not wrong. And I need no reason other than this one not to ban MK. It's that simple.
To everyone:
Let's look at this the other way. Your side (pro ban) does not think Snake has the upper hand in this matchup. This means it's one's word against another. And that means the matchup isn't clear and MK should not be banned.
Salabosomething:
Why say MK has at least two Melee character blabla crap? It's not true. And yes, it IS the current policy.
Xienzo:
Yes Mew2King does use MK, but it doesn't mean anything. He has stated why MK should not be banned, this specific matchup wasn't mentioned.
Playing a game competetively means doesn't mean having as much people playing the game as possible at all. It doesn't matter. A "good" meta game isn't needed for a game to advance. Enough people will play the game regardless, and it's up to the people that want to make a difference to this metagame, not to the number of people.
You DO know European results differ from US results, right? In certain parts of America, MK doesn't even place top eight. MK doesn't even come close to those criteria.
Black-idiot:
No. M2K (among other people) is most likely right or at least not wrong. And I need no reason other than this one not to ban MK. It's that simple.
To everyone:
Let's look at this the other way. Your side (pro ban) does not think Snake has the upper hand in this matchup. This means it's one's word against another. And that means the matchup isn't clear and MK should not be banned.
XxBlackxX
Smash Ace
yes, M2K is one of the best players, does that automatically mean his opinions are fact? just because he says MK shouldn't be banned and his the best, so it shouldn't be banned?
and no, youre wrong. more people means more advancing of the metagame, which is GOOD, not bad.
and no, youre wrong. more people means more advancing of the metagame, which is GOOD, not bad.
It's really pitiful to be one letter from finishing a name then intentionally mangle it. I'll give you a tip: "something" is "b".
Anycase, two things:
First, MK has the "No bad stages" of Fox, with the "Best and easiest to learn character in the game" of Sheik and the "Most tournament wins" of Marth. So really, he combines aspects of the top three characters in Melee.
Second, link me to this policy please. Where it's officially (The closest thing we have is the SBR) stated that's what is required to ban a character.
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
No, but if you and other people think that MK has the advantage that doesn't mean it's true either.
No it's not.
G&W is way easier to learn. Oh, so if a character combines certain things, it automatically is better? No. And it still doesn't meet the requirements for a ban.
It has been stated by multiple moderators. If you want to know the policy, PM a mod please.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Just because M2K says so doesn't mean it is true. big deal he is incredibly skilled at Smash, yet when he posts his argument is poor.
Inui is a great smasher but he speaks foolishly.
Skill does not translate to a good argument. Ever.
M2k could state his opinion until his face turned blue and it would not change that fact.
Unless a good argument is made, even if you are the best in the world, your word means NOTHING.
Stop saying because he says so, it means he is right or not wrong."
Again there is no true argument being made other than name dropping.
it is not a good argument, a top player's word does not at all dictate whether a character is being worthy of a ban.
got it? good.
Cause no one has said anything to prove otherwise. i mean we all just state it for nothing.
Just for the record I am neutral.
XxBlackxX
Smash Ace
i don't really think any of us are real pro-ban supporters, it's just that your arguments make no sense at all. i am also mostly neutral, and i think it is too early to decide.
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
If you think stating Snake has the advantage is also not worth anything, there's no need for responding to this.
MiraiGen
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2006
- Messages
- 710
No, but skill means experience and experience is one of the best defenses on your side in an argument.
I mean, ****, why else would there be a community within SmashBoards dedicated to, you know, setting the rules for the pro competitive community?
gantrain05
Smash Master
jumpman your a freakin ******. you say, "well because M2k says so its true, but because all of the rest of you say he meets the criteria to be banned you are all wrong, no offense to M2k he's an awesome smasher, but you do know he wins many many tournies by USING MK so why would he want him banned if he's making tons of money from it? think about it.
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
Let's drop Mew2King. I say Snake has the advantage. You still can't bring anything against that.
gantrain05
Smash Master
yes i can, i say snake DOESN'T have the advantage.......see what i did thar? your logic is bad.
XxBlackxX
Smash Ace
yes, but even a skilled player has to back their argument with SOLID evidence. saying im the best, therefore whatever i say is right WON'T work and i don't think anyone in SBR does that >_>.
When Dojo cut straight through a bracket, 3-stocking everyone, and took first, why did he want Meta Knight banned? Not to say that M2K isn't playing this game primarily for money (he is) but trying to interpret someone's possible intentions in some conspiracy theory is pretty silly.
M2K
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
Wow. I mean that it doesn't mean that Snake has the advantage even if you say so. Lol. So we cannot know if MK has bad matchups because idiots like you don't know if chars have bad matchups. So we can't ban MK.
You can't prove that and you have no support.
If you ask me to prove it, I say go read the character match ups.
Burden of countering our proof and supporting your own is on you. So until you stop giving us crappy appeal to authority fallacies as reasons, MK>Snake. And until you use both empirical and logical data, meaning not just from experience, but also a character match-up debate where you can prove Snake>MK without using only experience as an argument, then Snake>MK.
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
If you want me to prove it, check snake/mk boards.
XxBlackxX
Smash Ace
who's the real idiot here? you STILL havent given ANY proof at all!
gantrain05
Smash Master
yeah.....they say MK advantage, dunno when the last time you looked at those boards were, but right now meta has NO disadvantages.....that includes snake.
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
Neither have you
XxBlackxX
Smash Ace
actually i think it's pretty much even 50-50. despite arguments on both sides saying its either 55-45 or 45-55, but that's still pretty much even.
Good point Ills.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=179463
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175515
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158037
There ya go, look, MK has a slight advantage, yet technically neutral.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=179463
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175515
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158037
There ya go, look, MK has a slight advantage, yet technically neutral.
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
So, I've listened to the podcast (it took me a week), read the arguments, and have tried to be as informed as possible before making my vote.
I voted today against the banning of Meta Knight.
I see nothing unbeatable about him. Nothing. I do see a community that has been taken in much too easily by sensationalism, has seen an easy way "out", and has rushed. Banning isn't something you can do lightly. It needs immense thought - because if we get this wrong, and decide to backtrack, or worse the community splits, Brawl will be doomed.
Items were banned because it was obvious.
Wario Ware was banned because it was obvious.
Banning MK is not obvious in the least. Banning him better be the last f****** resort we come to or else Brawl will become more of a joke than it already is. Do not let that happen.
I voted today against the banning of Meta Knight.
I see nothing unbeatable about him. Nothing. I do see a community that has been taken in much too easily by sensationalism, has seen an easy way "out", and has rushed. Banning isn't something you can do lightly. It needs immense thought - because if we get this wrong, and decide to backtrack, or worse the community splits, Brawl will be doomed.
Items were banned because it was obvious.
Wario Ware was banned because it was obvious.
Banning MK is not obvious in the least. Banning him better be the last f****** resort we come to or else Brawl will become more of a joke than it already is. Do not let that happen.
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
- Status