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Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

Should Metaknight be banned?


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ShadowLink84

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omg lol

Meta Knight disappearing doesn't make the game have much more variety at all because characters like Dedede, Snake, Falco, and Game and Watch negate most of the cast as well.
except unlike MK, they all can be counter picked more easily.
DDD vs Olimar
Snake vs Wario, pikachu, Lucario, Falco etc
Falco vs marth and a few other characters.
G&W vs TL (?).

All of those character have definite counter picks that can be used against them to even things out.
While does not counter 5 characters like DDD does, he does have the benefit of never having a disadvantage and is unaffected by the Cp system. (according to the current metagame)


Things could possibly have more variety but we would need more large tournaments without MK to support it.
 

Genome Squirrel

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do you sincerely think its better to get artificial balance in this game through banning when a game with similar and deeper mechanics already exist? There is a good portion of the community that doesn't want metaknight banned, including players that don't use metaknight.
 

Inui

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except unlike MK, they all can be counter picked more easily.
DDD vs Olimar
Snake vs Wario, pikachu, Lucario, Falco etc
Falco vs marth and a few other characters.
G&W vs TL (?).
Snake counters MK.

Snake losing to Wario, Pikachu, and Lucario is false, imo. No, I do not care enough to prove it to you because you'd probably follow what random scrubs say in character boards, anyways. I've played and seen those matches lots of times and don't see Snake losing the match-ups at all. Falco he loses to slightly, yes, as well as Dedede.


All of those character have definite counter picks that can be used against them to even things out.
While does not counter 5 characters like DDD does, he does have the benefit of never having a disadvantage and is unaffected by the Cp system. (according to the current metagame)
MK has a definite counterpick. It's Snake.

While...who?
 

XienZo

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do you sincerely think its better to get artificial balance in this game through banning when a game with similar and deeper mechanics already exist? There is a good portion of the community that doesn't want metaknight banned, including players that don't use metaknight.
If we want to use Olimar(and DDD and Snake and Sonic and whoever else), yes, we have to fix this mess Sakurai gave us.
 

aeghrur

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"I played the match up, I determine the match up to be in snake's favor. I played it, thus I must be right. M2K said so too, so it must be right."
Seriously Inui... that's a terrible argument... and it's basically the proof you've had before.
Naive... >_< Character board match ups are based on logical data&empirical data. Yours are based upon empirical and faith, neither can prove anything... =/

*Disclaimer* Not saying your argument can't be right, just saying from what i've read of your arguments, they suck.
 

Inui

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"I played the match up, I determine the match up to be in snake's favor. I played it, thus I must be right. M2K said so too, so it must be right."
Seriously Inui... that's a terrible argument... and it's basically the proof you've had before.
Naive... >_< Character board match ups are based on logical data&empirical data. Yours are based upon empirical and faith, neither can prove anything... =/

*Disclaimer* Not saying your argument can't be right, just saying from what i've read of your arguments, they suck.
I don't care about what randoms in character boards say. They are usually very wrong. I do not care enough to explain the match in detail because it will be ignored. Atomsk already explained Olimar vs MK with a lot of detail and he's proven in tourny that Olimar does very well, but nobody cared.

My arguments indeed "suck" if you want everything explained because I don't want to waste my time like Atomsk did.
 

MasterDaveNo1

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my 1 day ddd took inui to last stock a few times against his snake today when my meta who ive used for a couple of months has trouble taking more than one stock. there i have provided information on why meta should stay legal. this thread is now void of meaning lol.
 

ShadowLink84

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Snake counters MK.
you've been advertising this like it was true.
1.Brawl is young. it cannot be defined.
2.The current metagame depicts it more towards the neutral end.

Snake losing to Wario, Pikachu, and Lucario is false, imo.
IMO=In my opinion<proven theory.

No no no you have it the other way around.
I do not care to prove anything more to you.
Why?
All you have done is just toss your anecdotal evidence around like it carries all the proof needed.
Not only do you act as if your word is actual fact (sorry dude it isn't),but you even go so far as to flame those who disagree with you and then ignore any argument they make regardless of how solid the argument may be.

I would rather listen to a scrub who actually knew what he was saying and could actually support it, than someone of M2K's caliber who speaks like their brain had been wrapped around a lime, and then smashed with a gold brick.

As for Atomsk's argument. it was addressed, replied to and several points were made against it. If he does not wish to continue the debate then by all means he doesn't need to continue.

Unlike you though he acknowledges this fact. "Olimar's need to prove that they do well against MK."
That means more than just a handful of results or a handful of high level players. It would be brushed off as simply being the result of player skill overcoming character matchup.
 

Inui

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you've been advertising this like it was true.
1.Brawl is young. it cannot be defined.
2.The current metagame depicts it more towards the neutral end.
If Brawl is young and nothing can be truly defined, then why ban MK so early?

The current metagame outside of Atlantic North sucks, imo. I'm not going to lie. I have a similar mentality as Plank on this. We've always been the strongest region since the early days and Melee and we still are, so we're going to consider what happens here more important and regard ourselves as better until people come here and beat us, which doesn't happen. Sorry about that elitist view, but it's how I feel.

And, over here, we have a lot of really good Snake players and they are beating the MKs consistently.

Unlike you though he acknowledges this fact. "Olimar's need to prove that they do well against MK."
That means more than just a handful of results or a handful of high level players. It would be brushed off as simply being the result of player skill overcoming character matchup
He said it the nice way.

I'd say "other Olimar players aren't at a high enough level yet and need to step up their ability to play safely and camp." Which is true.

I really want to see other Snakes step it up. DSF needs to stop messing around with MK and just win with Snake. Yes!, Kruton, and Candy are three Snakes in this region that are rising quickly. We have JesiahTEG who recently became amazing. My Snake does well and I actually use Snake more than MK now. G-regulate has always been pretty amazing. Chillin is obviously a top Snake. Ally ***** with Snake. The other Snakes in the world need to step it up.
 

XienZo

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I don't care about what randoms in character boards say. They are usually very wrong. I do not care enough to explain the match in detail because it will be ignored. Atomsk already explained Olimar vs MK with a lot of detail and he's proven in tourny that Olimar does very well, but nobody cared.

My arguments indeed "suck" if you want everything explained because I don't want to waste my time like Atomsk did.
Ad hominem isn't very nice you know... but perhaps you won't be ignored if you DID "waste" your time?
 

ShadowLink84

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If Brawl is young and nothing can be truly defined, then why ban MK so early?
Whya re you asking me?
Now I know you're doing something stupid and ignoring posts because I've stated my position a over fifteen times.
"It is too early to ban MK".<~~~read here.

The current metagame outside of Atlantic North sucks, imo. I'm not going to lie. I have a similar mentality as Plank on this. We've always been the strongest region since the early days and Melee and we still are, so we're going to consider what happens here more important and regard ourselves as better until people come here and beat us, which doesn't happen. Sorry about that elitist view, but it's how I feel.
What you do not understand is that Atlantic North is NOT the precedent for what competitive Smash is or should be.
Other regions do have palyers with comparable skill to m2k the major issue is, they don't have as many.
Thats it.

let alone that if they suck so bad why is it that in AN MK performs so very well?
you've yet to address this.

And, over here, we have a lot of really good Snake players and they are beating the MKs consistently.
Doesn't meana nything cause you are only focusing on the AN region. The other regions matter as well, using your own region as the status quot means nothing because it cannot be said if its simply player skill overcoming character ability.


He said it the nice way.

I'd say "other Olimar players aren't at a high enough level yet and need to step up their ability to play safely and camp." Which is true.
And he also *gasp* Supported what he said well. Something you have yet to do.
he also gave his argument as to why he felt the way he did and mentioned the players last.
primarily as focusing on the character ability rather than rely on only experience.
I really want to see other Snakes step it up. DSF needs to stop messing around with MK and just win with Snake. Yes!, Kruton, and Candy are three Snakes in this region that are rising quickly. We have JesiahTEG who recently became amazing. My Snake does well and I actually use Snake more than MK now. G-regulate has always been pretty amazing. Chillin is obviously a top Snake. Ally ***** with Snake. The other Snakes in the world need to step it up.
Assuming of course that it is Snake not the player winning the MK matchups.
At that extremely high level of player the advantages/disadvantages do not matter as much because of how skillde the players are.
Sheik has an advantage to marth but m2k rarely lost to a Sheik user. Did this remove the disadvantage? Of course not, but it did mean the matchup was very winnable as long as you was skilled enough.

Mind you no one is saying that MK is unbeatable. what is being said is that MK's effect on the metagame is hindering competitive Smash.
Rather than aiming to show Mk can be beaten, what needs to be shown is that MK doesn't affect the metagame so much as is often said.
Being beatable does factor into the argument but it is not the only factor in the argument.
 

Inui

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Other regions do have palyers with comparable skill to m2k the major issue is, they don't have as many.
Wait

lmao

Are you serious? He's never lost to anyone outside of Atlantic North for a reason. Atlantic North is also home to the number two player.

And even if you do say other regions have players comparable to M2K, they have an extremely small amount. If you enter a tournament in NYC or MD/VA, you're going to have a really match as early as round two even with a good seed.

let alone that if they suck so bad why is it that in AN MK performs so very well?
you've yet to address this.
He performs well only in New Jersey, possibly the most MK dominated state in the nation. Despite this, I've yet to meet a single NJ player in favour of the ban.

In MD/VA, he almost never gets top 3.

MK does terrible in NY with the rare exceptions of Jman and Shadow doing well in singles.

I don't see MK doing well in the far north at all.

PA is owned by Snake/Wolf/Game an Watch, etc. Not MK.
 

ShadowLink84

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Wait

lmao

Are you serious? He's never lost to anyone outside of Atlantic North for a reason. Atlantic North is also home to the number two player.
Thats nice but is not part of what I said at all. Again the An doesn't house the only top players which is what I said.
It has the most but that doesn't automatically mean that what teh AN does is what everyone else should do.
And even if you do say other regions have players comparable to M2K, they have an extremely small amount. If you enter a tournament in NYC or MD/VA, you're going to have a really match as early as round two even with a good seed.
Why did you just repeat what I said?
Actually read the posts don't skim them.


He performs well only in New Jersey, possibly the most MK dominated state in the nation. Despite this, I've yet to meet a single NJ player in favour of the ban.
I believe it was South west that had the most MK dominance.
And yes NJ does have the most MK dominance but considering you have m2k in NJ, yourself and a few others why are you not knocing down the Mk users as you claim the AN normally does?
In MD/VA, he almost never gets top 3.

MK does terrible in NY with the rare exceptions of Jman and Shadow doing well in singles.

I don't see MK doing well in the far north at all.

PA is owned by Snake/Wolf/Game an Watch, etc. Not MK.
Name the Mk's that are as good a Jman and Shadow within those states please.
If there are tons of MK's and only a few of them can be considered good then MK still should not be dominating AN.
Snake does the 2nd best in tournament results but is twelfth in popularity.
So popularity is not skewing the results that much.
Clearly there is a contradiction between your statement and what is actually going on.

It is possible that NJ is throwing things off but again, if AN has so many high level players then he should not be doing so well.
AN had the second highest wins for MK in terms of region.
So something is off.
 

Turbo Ether

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No clue why you two are even debating. It's a waste of time to argue with someone if they always disregard or disagree with your statements.

It's certainly a waste of time if you live in North Atlantic, because TO's here will not ban MK.
 

Inui

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I believe it was South west that had the most MK dominance.
And yes NJ does have the most MK dominance but considering you have m2k in NJ, yourself and a few others why are you not knocing down the Mk users as you claim the AN normally does?
As a region, yes. Not as much as NJ statewise, though.

Mew2King doesn't really lose to anyone, but I did well against him in both singles and teams recently with Snake.

I have not played teh_spamerer for a very long time in singles. I will try Snake against him next time.

Name the Mk's that are as good a Jman and Shadow within those states please.
Those are the best ones in NY.

If there are tons of MK's and only a few of them can be considered good then MK still should not be dominating AN.
He's not. I posted in great detail a huge list of results from AN and it's extremely clear that MK DOES NOT DOMINATE ATLANTIC NORTH AT ALL.

Snake does the 2nd best in tournament results but is twelfth in popularity.
So popularity is not skewing the results that much.
Clearly there is a contradiction between your statement and what is actually going on.
Huh? I'd say it is. If MK is the most popular and is winning and Snake is only 12th in popularity and is 2nd, wouldn't Snake be significantly higher if he was 2nd in popularity? MK is overused outside of Atlantic North. That is giving him a lot of points. Mew2King is winning large tournies with MK, adding lots of points. MK's extreme popularity is obviously giving him a lot of points.

It is possible that NJ is throwing things off but again, if AN has so many high level players then he should not be doing so well.
AN had the second highest wins for MK in terms of region.
So something is off.
AN has the second highest amount of wins because of Mew2King and teh_spamerer. This was already explained in great detail by me previously.

I posted a huge list of AN tournaments and MK won something like 16/67 tournaments and 7 of those came from Mew2King alone, IIRC.

Turbo Ether said:
No clue why you two are even debating. It's a waste of time to argue with someone if they always disregard or disagree with your statements.

It's certainly a waste of time if you live in North Atlantic, because TO's here will not ban MK.
lol, this is true. It's obvious that ShadowLink84 and I will never agree because I only care about real results at the highest levels.

Yes, Atlantic North is awesome and will never ban MK. :)
 

M15t3R E

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If Brawl is young and nothing can be truly defined, then why ban MK so early?
This is why your argument doesn't convince the pro-ban people. Many already believe Brawl's metagame has been defined and won't progress much more except for some minor, unconsequential, advancements.

Wait

lmao

Are you serious? He's never lost to anyone outside of Atlantic North for a reason. Atlantic North is also home to the number two player.
So, you're saying M2K has never lost to Azen?

O__O
 

St. Viers

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@Shadowlink: has anyone actually seen how much it's MK dominating the NA, or just M2K? I haven't seen that, and people were wondering awhile back.

Also, I think it's fair to say that people consistantly beating MKs in NA means something other than "player/matchup experience." If one player can do it, really the only limitation then is that the other people need to get better--this isn't melee where technical speed means so much.
[/elitism]
 

ShadowLink84

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As a region, yes. Not as much as NJ statewise, though.

Mew2King doesn't really lose to anyone, but I did well against him in both singles and teams recently with Snake.

I have not played teh_spamerer for a very long time in singles. I will try Snake against him next time.
mmk.
Those are the best ones in NY.
I meant the other states my error.
He's not. I posted in great detail a huge list of results from AN and it's extremely clear that MK DOES NOT DOMINATE ATLANTIC NORTH AT ALL.
When Shaya accumulated all of the tournaments concerning the AN region it was found that over 50% of the tournaments had been won by MK in the course of October.
So there is an issue.

Huh? I'd say it is. If MK is the most popular and is winning and Snake is only 12th in popularity and is 2nd, wouldn't Snake be significantly higher if he was 2nd in popularity? MK is overused outside of Atlantic North. That is giving him a lot of points. Mew2King is winning large tournies with MK, adding lots of points. MK's extreme popularity is obviously giving him a lot of points.
No.
Captain Falcon was among the most popular characters as was Link(melee) yet their tournament results did not change to a significant degree.
if all the MK users switched to Snake the results for Snake would rise, but it would not change significantly.

Popularity does not skew the results to a great degree.

AN has the second highest amount of wins because of Mew2King and teh_spamerer. This was already explained in great detail by me previously.

I posted a huge list of AN tournaments and MK won something like 16/67 tournaments and 7 of those came from Mew2King alone, IIRC.
mmk.

lol, this is true. It's obvious that ShadowLink84 and I will never agree because I only care about real results at the highest levels.
Cause i surely don't./sarcasm
Yes, Atlantic North is awesome and will never ban MK. :)
yet they banned infinites. <_<


@Shadowlink: has anyone actually seen how much it's MK dominating the AN, or just M2K? I haven't seen that, and people were wondering awhile back.
inui himself said m2k won 7/67 tournaments that MK won. So he places the most consistently but doesn't mae the majority. (of course I could be reading it wrong).
Also, I think it's fair to say that people consistantly beating MKs in NA means something other than "player/matchup experience." If one player can do it, really the only limitation then is that the other people need to get better--this isn't melee where technical speed means so much.
having technical speed was just that, having technical speed. The fastest hands didn't always go to the best player. I was the users experience that translated to the applicatin of that technical speed.

One issue with telling someone to get better is that it takes the argument out of context.
the ban is evaluating the character's effect on the metagame.
the issue with saying "get better" is that then its basically stating that as long as you are "this" much better than your opponent you will win.
This is rue but then it makes evaluating character ability difficult.

M2K beat alot of Sheik's but it didn't change the fact that Sheik has an advantage.
There is more factored in than just being the better player.
 

Turbo Ether

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It's acceptable for the best character in a fighting game to have a 50% tournament win-rate in a region. Especially when the best player on the planet, mains said character.
 

Inui

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yet they banned infinites. <_<
Yes, because allowing skill-less garbage to completely negate characters like DK and Bowser is dumb.

100/0 matches should not exist.

MK is not 100/0 with anyone.

When Shaya accumulated all of the tournaments concerning the AN region it was found that over 50% of the tournaments had been won by MK in the course of October.
So there is an issue.
Okay, let's focus only on October.

MK only won once in MD/VA out of four tournaments.

MK won 0 times out of 5 tournaments in NYC.

MK never wins in Jesiah's area because of his Snake.

MK didn't win 50% of AN's tournies because NY is never included due to the hosts failing at posting real results.
 

M15t3R E

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If Brawl is young and nothing can be truly defined, then why ban MK so early?
This is why your argument doesn't convince the pro-ban people. Many already believe Brawl's metagame has been defined and won't progress much more except for some minor, unconsequential, advancements.

It's acceptable for the best character in a fighting game to have a 50% tournament win-rate in a region. Especially when the best player on the planet, mains said character.
Says who? You? This means that the game, in high levels of play, is terribly unbalanced due to one character in particular. It's certainly not acceptable by my standards.
 

Turbo Ether

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Says who? You? This means that the game, in high levels of play, is terribly unbalanced due to one character in particular. It's certainly not acceptable by my standards.
A character having a 50% tournament-win-rate or more is common in most relevant fighting games, including Melee. These games have unacceptable character balance?

Define acceptable character balance.
 

M15t3R E

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A character having a 50% tournament-win-rate or more is common in most relevant fighting games, including Melee. These games have unacceptable character balance?
That's not true at all. No fighter has a single character that dominant.

And in Melee- Fox, C. Falcon, Marth, Sheik, Falco and Peach could all comfortably fight one another on the same level.
 

Zankoku

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Hahaha, don't say Peach, please. The higher level play it is, the less viable Peach becomes.
 

Turbo Ether

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That's not true at all.

And in Melee- Fox, C. Falcon, Sheik, Falco and Peach could all comfortably fight one another on the same level.
I specifically said "tournament win-rate", making no statement about character matchups. Marth had the most dominant tournament performance by far at the end of the day. Look at games like 3S where Yun and Chun-li absolutely dominate the tournament scene.
 

JesiahTEG

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That's not true at all.

And in Melee- Fox, C. Falcon, Sheik, Falco and Peach could all comfortably fight one another on the same level.
Falcon gets ***** hard by Sheik and Falco. Sheik gets owned by spacies.

Also, DK, Lucario, Snake, Diddy all do fine vs Meta Knight.
 

M15t3R E

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Hahaha, don't say Peach, please. The higher level play it is, the less viable Peach becomes.
Whatever, my point still stands.

I specifically said "tournament win-rate", making no statement about character matchups. Marth had the most dominant tournament performance by far at the end of the day.
So why did you compare it to Melee? No one struggled against any Melee character in general, the way people struggle against MK in Brawl.

Falcon gets ***** hard by Sheik and Falco. Sheik gets owned by spacies.

Also, DK, Lucario, Snake, Diddy all do fine vs Meta Knight.
The only statistic I have seen to back up your claim is Ninjalink's wins against MKs. Then again, he rarely plays against notable MKs and besides, he's Ninjalink.

The point is, a MK user less skilled than their opponent using a different character can fight on the same level, on any stage.
 

ShadowLink84

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Yes, because allowing skill-less garbage to completely negate characters like DK and Bowser is dumb.

100/0 matches should not exist.

MK is not 100/0 with anyone.
I should care?
We shouldn't have 80:20 matches.
We should not have 7:3 matches.

We should not have such a competitively poor game but we do.

Those infinites don't affect the metagame.
in melee, wobbling was banned only by a minority (again AN).
Guess what happened?
Their tournament rankings still did not improve.

Things should only be banned provided they do one of two things.
1.Hurt the competitiveness of a game.
2.Affect the metagame toa significant degree.


Wobbling didn't in melee.
Big deal the DDD infinite takes less skill than Fox's infinite aveshine. The ends is the asme though. You die.

Hell Mk takes little time to learn and he is the best character. Ban him cause he takes so much less skill than using other characters.

Okay, let's focus only on October.

MK only won once in MD/VA out of four tournaments.

MK won 0 times out of 5 tournaments in NYC.

MK never wins in Jesiah's area because of his Snake.

MK didn't win 50% of AN's tournies because NY is never included due to the hosts failing at posting real results.
That means there is an issue between what you are saying and what Shaya had posted in October.
*shrug*
I'll look into it tomorrow
 

JesiahTEG

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No one struggled against any Melee character in general, the way people struggle against MK in Brawl.
I'm not trying to be a punk here or anything, but I really don't see how MK is different from Fox, Marth, Sheik or Falco in Melee. Plenty of characters do good against MK, I really think he's a severely overrated character.

If MK is a 100 rating, Snake can be no lower than a 90. I'm sticking to that forever lmao.
 

Turbo Ether

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If the best character having a 50% win-rate is broken, explain why and also explain what win-rate is considered balanced.

I'm not trying to be a punk here or anything, but I really don't see how MK is different from Fox, Marth, Sheik or Falco in Melee. Plenty of characters do good against MK, I really think he's a severely overrated character.

If MK is a 100 rating, Snake can be no lower than a 90. I'm sticking to that forever lmao.
QFT
 

Zankoku

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lol, balance.

Nobody actually wants balance.

They just want the character THEY play playing the style THEY use to be viable in tournament.

A game consisting only of one character and one stage is perfectly balanced, but everyone is AGAINST that. NOBODY actually wants balance. They just want things unfair in their favor.
 

M15t3R E

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If the best character having a 50% win-rate is broken, explain why and also explain what win-rate is considered balanced.
Better question would be, why not? How does a 50% win-rate not indicate to you that the character must be overpowered? This is why the character wins that often.

A balanced win-rate, imho, would be one in which there is no gigantic gap between the win-rate of one top-tier character to the next. Simple as that.

I'm not trying to be a punk here or anything, but I really don't see how MK is different from Fox, Marth, Sheik or Falco in Melee. Plenty of characters do good against MK, I really think he's a severely overrated character.

If MK is a 100 rating, Snake can be no lower than a 90. I'm sticking to that forever lmao.
Until statistics begin to show that people are able to defeat MK's as easily as people defeated Fox, Marth, Sheik, Falco, etc. of Melee, I'm keeping my position.
 

Turbo Ether

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So why did you compare it to Melee? No one struggled against any Melee character in general, the way people struggle against MK in Brawl.
Because Marth dominated the tournament scene similarly to MK perhaps?
 
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