Should Metaknight be Banned? **Take 2** (Post-podcast)

[Natch]

Also, if you could make the argument for both DeDeDe and Snake, then we'll make it for both DeDeDe and Snake if it turns out they are just as "bad" as Metaknight.

 

[Zankoku]

Because there hasn't been a consensus regarding matchups yet, so saying X, Y, and Z characters become more viable with Meta Knight gone is assuming all present views to be correct.

Also, if you could make the argument for both DeDeDe and Snake, then we'll make it for both DeDeDe and Snake if it turns out they are just as "bad" as Metaknight.

No, if that happens we'll all play Melee because we're removing the only thing Brawl has over it - more characters.

 

[XienZo]

Because there hasn't been a consensus regarding matchups yet, so saying X, Y, and Z characters become more viable with Meta Knight gone is assuming all present views to be correct.

Well, thats if we're all passive and theorycrafting.

What if we just go and test it out?

No, if that happens we'll all play Melee because we're removing the only thing Brawl has over it - more characters.

People don't play it because there are MORE characters, they play it because it's more likely to include their favorites.

If Brawl had less characters than melee, but they were also completely different characters(Yeah, we banned puff and Falcon!), they'd still be different games and neither would be COMPLETELY overshadowed by the other, although Melee would win out more on average.

 

[rehab]

But if we have 2 characters dominating and doing MK's job, that will be better than one!

 

[Natch]

Because there hasn't been a consensus regarding matchups yet, so saying X, Y, and Z characters become more viable with Meta Knight gone is assuming all present views to be correct.


No, if that happens we'll all play Melee because we're removing the only thing Brawl has over it - more characters.

If MK is banned, and then it turns out Snake and DeDeDe suddenly lose their bad matchups, gain transcedent priority, and suddenly have their sprite look like Kirby in a bat suit...

Yeah. It probably won't happen, because the simple fact of the matter is...they're not Metaknight. That argument is being made because MK has all of these attributes.



****, that argument got countered 3 different ways in 3 minutes. FTL(For The Lulz)

 

[Zankoku]

Which attributes? I was speaking with XienZo about the argument of Meta Knight making characters unviable. Snake and Dedede do that to.

If you're talking about lack of bad matchups, how many games are there with a bad matchup for every character?

Priority doesn't end games on its own, but Snake and Dedede do have quite a bit of it.

But if we have 2 characters dominating and doing MK's job, that will be better than one!

I still don't see Meta Knight winning so hard that he's the only viable character, but if he indeed were the only one, and banning him would lead to four (which I think that point has been made), then yes, the ban would be justified.

 

[Raikou3322]

Uh......yeah

 

[Natch]

Which attributes? I was speaking with XienZo about the argument of Meta Knight making characters unviable. Snake and Dedede do that to.

If you're talking about lack of bad matchups, how many games are there with a bad matchup for every character?

Priority doesn't end games on its own, but Snake and Dedede do have quite a bit of it.


I still don't see Meta Knight winning so hard that he's the only viable character, but if he indeed were the only one, and banning him would lead to four (which I think that point has been made), then yes, the ban would be justified.

Snake and DeDeDe have far more counters than MK. No one would go for that argument, because they don't **** nearly as hard as MK.

That's my point.

 

[Zankoku]

Your point is deviating from the original argument. I don't know how you can **** any harder than a guaranteed infinite off of a grab using a character with the longest non-tether grab range in the game. It doesn't matter that Dedede has poor matchups, the point remains that he makes more characters unviable than Meta Knight does.

 

[XienZo]

I still don't see Meta Knight winning so hard that he's the only viable character, but if he indeed were the only one, and banning him would lead to four (which I think that point has been made), then yes, the ban would be justified.

What about MK being super viable(centralizing) and 2-3 viable characters into 6-7 viable characters?

I don't think it has to come down to just 1 viable character for a ban to be justified, as long as 1 character is clearly overcentralizing.

On the other hand, if we had 3 equally centralizing characters, we still should ban one of them, but we might ban the wrong one(as in increasing the viability the least).

Luckily, we can see that MK is the root of the problem.

 

[Nic64]

Why would it be ENTIRELY subjective?

yes, it would be. a character doesn't become competitively unviable because of one bad match up, just like yoshi doesn't become competitive because of one supposedly even match.

 

[Zankoku]

What about MK being super viable(centralizing) and 2-3 viable characters into 6-7 viable characters?

Why are there only 4 viable characters? Is that really the case? Would removing a single character really suddenly make three more viable?

Every competitive game will be centralized around the top choice. Even in Tic-Tac-Toe, where you'll only choose the squares that guarantee you either a win or a draw.

 

[Mmac]

yes, it would be. a character doesn't become competitively unviable because of one bad match up, just like yoshi doesn't become competitive because of one supposedly even match.

Ok, Yoshi IS a Viable Character to use in completive settings. There's just a major lack of people that main him that demonstrate what he can actually do in completive settings. I really wish that people would stop treating him like a pathetic joke, and better yet, actually learn about the character before making assumptions that "Yoshi can't do this", and "There's no way he can do that"

 

[Nic64]

one of my better characters is ganondorf, I don't treat lower tiers as a complete joke...I'm just pointing out that a single matchup does not make or break a character, even if it is with the most common of opponents

 

[aeghrur]

Why are there only 4 viable characters? Is that really the case? Would removing a single character really suddenly make three more viable?

Every competitive game will be centralized around the top choice. Even in Tic-Tac-Toe, where you'll only choose the squares that guarantee you either a win or a draw.

Tic-Tac-Toe even has 5 squares you can go in to be the best choices.
Brawl has one, metaknight.

 

[Mmac]

one of my better characters is ganondorf, I don't treat lower tiers as a complete joke...I'm just pointing out that a single matchup does not make or break a character, even if it is with the most common of opponents

It's just the way you worded it. You made it sound like Yoshi was completely inviable when he is not. I was also talking about more than just the MetaKnight Matchup.

Yoshi is far from Low Tier

 

[Zankoku]

You want the center square. All the others invariably limit your choices.

So, let me see if I get this straight.
Meta Knight alone makes 4 characters unviable.
28 characters are unviable whether Meta Knight is banned or not.
The unviable characters still place in tournaments because people are so unreasonable that they will choose an unviable option instead of a winning one, but they're somehow denying that unviability by placing.
Meta Knight has ridiculous priority (uh.... huh? not exactly sure how this is criteria for a ban)
Meta Knight is universally the best choice (this one is probably the only thing I completely agree with)

 

[aeghrur]

No, center and corners are equal in use. Both can guarantee a tie at least. The center is no better than the corners. =/

 

[_Keno_]

Just a question Ankoku, do you play metaknight? You seem to be defending him more than any other person.

Also i agree with Aeghrur, corners are just as good as center, although what Aeg said doesn't make your point invalid.

 

[Zankoku]

I hate Meta Knight. The only character I've tried playing a decent amount that has a neutral B that I should be using often, but I never remember to. Well, I guess Sheik can sorta spam needles. But spamming Shieldbreaker and Toad is lol

 

[_Keno_]

Toad is actually decent lol.

Anyways, about something you said earlier about people losing their mains due to meta being banned...its their fault for being tier whores...

 

[brinboy789]

Meta Knight alone makes 4 characters unviable.

just pointing out, D3 makes 5 chars unviable. samus, DK, bowser, mario, and luigi

 

[rehab]

If you got the center first you have way more flexibility with getting other squares.

 

[_Keno_]

lol rehab, the center really isn't as good as you think (look up some strats)...and it doesn't matter anyways, it was just an analogy.

 

[_Keno_]

just pointing out, D3 makes 5 chars unviable. samus, DK, bowser, mario, and luigi

Thats what secondaries are for. With meta, even if you do have a good secondary he probably isn't good against meta either.

 

[DanGR]

just pointing out, D3 makes 5 chars unviable. samus, DK, bowser, mario, and luigi

...and the infinite should be banned as well.

Wait... that's not even a pro-ban argument. Why bring it up...

 

[Master Raven]

Thats what secondaries are for. With meta, even if you do have a good secondary he probably isn't good against meta either.

I shouldn't need to have a secondary because of a skill-less infinite.

But that's a different topic for another day.

 

[brinboy789]

Thats what secondaries are for. With meta, even if you do have a good secondary he probably isn't good against meta either.

learn snake. OR you can get really good @ your main and win, like most people who win against MK do.

 

[sMexy-Blu]

MK needs a SUPA BAN NAO.

 

[Master Knight DH]

he jsut said snake is slow...

He IS slow.

can someone find me that sprite of a red face with a gun, blowing another face's head off?
cus thats how i feel right now

actually, snake is slow. on ground speed. not that it matters much though. and master knight, i know that your trying not to get mk banned, but saying false things wont work. talk about the snake matchup. its 60:40, agreed by top players, all pro-ban people can say is OMG MK CAN GIMP and thats it while snake has all options on ground. i made a thread on MK boards about it, try and pick up there if you want a viable arguement

It's not false whatsoever. Meta Knight doesn't have to gimp. He can just break through the defenses and smack around Snake.

Well, thats only going to work on FD, really, because on most other stages, the mine+C4 can keep you from going on a quarter of the field.

Except I have Battlefield in mind.

Your argument doesn't even make sense anyway.

This is simply self-contradiction, with the "Fight Snake from long range", and then "I don't need space to kick his butt",

You kick his butt when he can't fight back. Simple as that. He can't tilt you to defend against a fast attack.

because you needed to fight at long range to avoid his long-ranged close range tilts.

Yes. Of course, Snake's stuff is strong in the first place. Why try to be careless around him?

And then you need to fight close range to avoid his long-range grenades.

I can avoid the grenades consistently. More distance from them results in an easier time reacting to them. All he does really is open himself.

His tilts are quick,

And even if they are quick enough, they're still ground attacks. I can just as easily attack from the air.

and movement speed only applies when you approach.

How about attack speed? Especially the missiles. The missiles can be jumped, Snake has to spend some time to drop his control of the missile to defend himself, and he still gets hit.

Somebody actually does this?

Something has to explain Snake as top tier for a guy who got pushed around by my Game & Watch when he was still clunky from lack of age.

The last time a Snake f-smash hit me was months ago.

Well, good for you.

They adapt better.

Uh, no. The law of diminishing works against them.

Make him play smash versus M2K, him using pit and arrow abusing to heck, and M2K using MK. We'll see how over the top he thinks it is now.

You mean set him up into a player misatch? NO. JUST.....NO.

You NEED to approach, otherwise you can't win.

I'm not even worried about approaching. Falco lags.

Falcon has the range advantage, and can fire fast, even short-hopped.

I didn't know Falcon could use projectiles.

Oh, you mean Falco, without the n. I'll just jump his lasers, air dodge if necessary, and that's the end of it.

To fight falco you are required to both defend against lasers AND move foreward.

Which you can at least do to him. But Pit, no way. Falco can't shoot somebody getting out of air dodge without that somebody blundering.

He has a powerful projectile to force approach, and his tilts outrange almost all characters. And you still need to KO him up close unless you're Samus.

Laser spam is just an invitation for disaster. They only fire horizontally, and can't even be held to mess up timing. And you should see it coming, which you can say about Pit's arrows, granted, but with Pit's arrows, it doesn't make a difference.

Learn 2 play.

I didn't know it was possible to make Wolf at the time of the Landmaster incident look like a success. But you proved it by telling me that like I don't know how to play. Congratulations.

You amuse me, whether you're an absolute idiot or a troll, you're arguments are so factually lacking it's comical.

Says the guy who tells me to match the friend up with an insanity skill player.

 

[HeroMystic]

just pointing out, D3 makes 5 chars unviable. samus, DK, bowser, mario, and luigi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQOk8WWA8ik

Make that 8.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQOk8WWA8ik

Make that 8.

Because obviously any sort of alternate chaingrab makes the victim inviable. All of those characters (and Bowser) get out when King Dedede runs out of stage. Mario, Luigi, and Samus get out by just mashing quickly when grabbed.

Make that 1.

 

[HeroMystic]

Hey, not my fault people put their match-ups as 80:20/90:10 when they suffer a really long chaingrab.

 

[Master Raven]

Because obviously any sort of alternate chaingrab makes the victim inviable. All of those characters (and Bowser) get out when King Dedede runs out of stage. Mario, Luigi, and Samus get out by just mashing quickly when grabbed.

Make that 1.

What? You can't get out of the infinite by mashing. As for the walking semi-infinite, it does inflicts such a ridiculous amount of damage that it still makes the matchup near-unwinnable.

 

[brinboy789]

Because obviously any sort of alternate chaingrab makes the victim inviable. All of those characters (and Bowser) get out when King Dedede runs out of stage. Mario, Luigi, and Samus get out by just mashing quickly when grabbed.

Make that 1.

bowser, and any char that falls in his category, for him, D3 takes a tiny step foward and does dgrab. its not an infinite, but until the stage ends theyre going to be at killing %, so its not really going to make a difference. and for mario luigu and samus, just keep on dgrabbing? you cant break out of a grab when you immediately do the throw and dont jab. and even if you do jab, just once, its really hard.

if its not an infinite, but its a free 0 - killing %, its still unviable. make that 8

 

[CorruptFate]

Panda if you can you should reset the poll with an spot for unsure as many player might be unsure what they think after hearing the pod cast. That way the numbers can still add up to what they were before and we can see if either side has a true majority of the vote or not.

Had to bold it just to make sure you have a shot at seeing it.

 

[Zankoku]

I'm not even worried about approaching. Falco lags.

Oh, you mean Falco, without the n. I'll just jump his lasers, air dodge if necessary, and that's the end of it.

Which you can at least do to him. But Pit, no way. Falco can't shoot somebody getting out of air dodge without that somebody blundering.

Laser spam is just an invitation for disaster. They only fire horizontally, and can't even be held to mess up timing. And you should see it coming, which you can say about Pit's arrows, granted, but with Pit's arrows, it doesn't make a difference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cDR4BWEqIU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqdyhUFNrKw

One day you'll learn that while Pit has a relatively low cooldown time on arrows, Falco has literally zero cooldown time because landing from an aerial laser cancels the animation. (this applies to both Melee and Brawl)

 

[brinboy789]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cDR4BWEqIU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqdyhUFNrKw

One day you'll learn that while Pit has a relatively low cooldown time on arrows, Falco has literally zero cooldown time because landing from an aerial laser cancels the animation. (this applies to both Melee and Brawl)

lambchops is a beast...

and master knight, i know you awnt to help, but saying things that are wrong isnt going to help. SHL doesnt have lag. pits arrows do.

edit: oops

 

[Zankoku]

Pit doesn't have lasers, though his arrows are very blue and laserlike.

 

[Ice Climbers P and N]

Wow, that is the most epic multiquote post ever.