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Should Melee's Top Tiers Stay Untouchable Through this Critical Turning Point in Project M's Life?

Alex Night

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I really don't like seeing the strawman "bcuz melee" being thrown around here.
When did people start believing this is a thing? Do we have a quote from one of the developers with "bcuz Melee"? Because I find it hard to believe. Fox and Falco are solid characters( to say the least) with an extremely extensive metagame behind them, same for Marth Sheik and Jiggs. Yes, Marth Sheik and Jiggs exist too, Melee isn't Fox/falco ahoy like some of you folk seem to believe. Moreover, I think the idea that Melee players who want their character, in this case Fox/Falco, shouldn't be met with so much disapproval. We're trying so hard to make melee high tiers play like their melee counterparts with added bonuses, so why is it so bad for these two to be roughly the same, even though they were already nerfed to an appreciable extent?
What part of having fast mobility, act out of Shine Frame 1 to escape tech chases, able to throw quick laser bolts against the majority of the cast with little to no problem, having a jab combo into UpSmash that kills under 100% just by UpSmashing alone, a throw that leads into near certain death from Upair, and having only the weakness of being 0 to death'd or combo bait being their only weakness justify in saying that Fox is a solid character based on design or any of general things about the Melee spacies? Small rant aside, this is about having solid character design within the Project M environment, not what they were in Melee. The reason why they need to be adjusted again is because of 2.1 Lucario, 2.5 Sonic, 2.6 Ivysaur, and 3.0 Pit, Diddy Kong, Mewtwo, and Lucas.
 

kaizo13

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i really don't understand this new born hatred towards melee/melee players coming primarily from the PM-only community. like i understand you guys are trying to further set the game apart from melee and make it it's own thing, which is ok, but some of you just lash out at anything melee related *coughBleck* and truly try so hard to cut off all ties with melee....when the game you are playing is literally 80% Melee

i been around since page 1 of the first project m thread back in 2010, and i gotta say that the overall atmosphere of the community has certainly changed, in a negative manner.
 
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Phaiyte

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Last I checked, quite a few of the throws were "nerfed" do to the positioning of throw releases in vBrawl, though I could be totally wrong and if so I'd like some correction.

Edit: @Celestis , I for one don't think that's the best thing to add back in, Fox and Falco remain a dominating force even without those assets to shine and laser. If Fox and Falco were ever buffed from 3.0 *chortle*, those too aspects would not be the go to solution IMO. Fox's kill moves easily capitalize on knock back scaling, particularly up smash, so giving him a damage tool that makes it vital for the opponent to approach that shine demon who contains a one two kill combo out of an invincable move may be pushing the envelope.
Fox / Falco STILL aren't winning tournaments outside of M2K lmao. Doesn't sound too dominating to me. Popular and dominating are not synonymous. Also, if you're REALLY gonna let Fox get a shine on you past 100%, that's your own fault for letting him get that close and/or letting him mindgame you so hard. Just saiyan.
 
D

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if sheik gets either version of melee downthrow back, i'm going to suckerpunch whoever made the change IRL
 

TreK

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Fox / Falco STILL aren't winning tournaments outside of M2K lmao. Doesn't sound too dominating to me. Popular and dominating are not synonymous. Also, if you're REALLY gonna let Fox get a shine on you past 100%, that's your own fault for letting him get that close and/or letting him mindgame you so hard. Just saiyan.
You can change the settings in the popularity rankings to only take top16, 8 or 1 into account, Fox is still 1st in every category. He's got twice as many tournament wins as the second most succesful character, Mario.
Now this ranking is not very representative because not all tourbaments are reported and top players happen to often have a pocket Fox, but it does illustrate clearly that Fox is, indeed, a very succesful character.
 

Phaiyte

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To be completely foreal, I think everyone should literally be Spacie-esque.

You know what? We should combine all of the great things about each spacie, including Ness/Lucas, combine it into one character, and bam. That's the only character available in the game. Except for that one character that's basically Ganon / Falcon combined.


FFWNL:
inb4 DJC Fox Nair
Falco Fsmash
Wolf Dsmash
Falco Dair
Falco laser
Fox aerial shine
Falco grounded shine
Ness PK Fire
Lucas Bair
Lucas Fair
Fox uair
Wolf Ftilt
Fox runspeed / Lucas traction
Wolf dash attack
Waveland lasers

Captain Ganon, he's the hero, gonna take pollution down to zero~
Falcon runspeed / Ganon fallspeed
5 frame jumpsquat
nair don't care
Falcon Fsmash
Ganon Dsmash
Ganon Usmash
Ganon dash attack
Ganon Fair
Ganon Uair
Ganon Bair
Ganon Dair with Falcon nipple spike
Ganon downB with Falcon speed on the ground but Ganon speed in the air
Ganon sideB
Ganon Ftilt
Falcon Dtilt
Falcon Utilt
Falcon upB with Ganon uppercut hitbox


There you go guys. The actual perfect game in 2 characters.

YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
 

Phaiyte

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You can change the settings in the popularity rankings to only take top16, 8 or 1 into account, Fox is still 1st in every category. He's got twice as many tournament wins as the second most succesful character, Mario.
Now this ranking is not very representative because not all tourbaments are reported and top players happen to often have a pocket Fox, but it does illustrate clearly that Fox is, indeed, a very succesful character.
Every stream I've EVER watched of PM has never ever ever had a Fox or Falco winner outside of like 3, all M2K, who's been playing the character and the entirety of Melee literally obsessively for like 11 years.
 

Rhubarbo

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i really don't understand this new born hatred towards melee/melee players coming primarily from the PM-only community. like i understand you guys are trying to further set the game apart from melee and make it it's own thing, which is ok, but some of you just lash out at anything melee related *coughBleck* and truly try so hard to cut off all ties with melee....when the game you are playing is literally 80% Melee

i been around since page 1 of the first project m thread back in 2010, and i gotta say the overall atmosphere of the community has certainly changed, in a negative manner.
In all fairness, Melee-only players have been pretty harsh on PM and its community in the past. Sometimes, you'll see Melee purists senselessly bash PM for not being exactly like Melee. I have actually heard people call Project M "Brawl with a spice of Melee." This is ridiculous and can be brushed off because, like you said, PM is clearly mostly Melee. However, the really egregious attitude comes from the folks who say Project M players don't have true skill. In Mew2King's Reddit-rant on recoveries, he posted plenty of constructive criticism, but he also took cheap shots at Project M players. Basically, he posited that Project M players are carried by their characters' gimmicks and don't have good fundamentals.

Well, instead of barking back at those players, the idea here is that we prove them wrong. Changing Project M in spite of words like Mew2King's isn't an act of disdain, it's resolute repudiation. By advancing Project M, we can show that Project M and it's community can in fact be better than Melee and its community. With proper consideration, Project M can make Melee look like the more gimmicky game out of the two; Project M can foster the highest plateau of skilled Smash. Melee players have prodded out this response, and it's probably for the better.

So far, in this thread, I've mostly seen constructive criticism from both sides, so that's good.
 

Frost | Odds

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Every stream I've EVER watched of PM has never ever ever had a Fox or Falco winner outside of like 3, all M2K, who's been playing the character and the entirety of Melee literally obsessively for like 11 years.
"Your statistics mean nothing next to my single, clearly-unbiased anecdote!"

How's that Q-ray bracelet working out for you?
 
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InfinityCollision

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Moreover, I think the idea that Melee players who want their character, in this case Fox/Falco, shouldn't be met with so much disapproval.
Adjusting specific elements != burning the entire character to the ground. Nobody's calling for a total redesign here. It's entirely possible to alter their designs in subtle ways that are beneficial to the game and community as a whole.

We're trying so hard to make melee high tiers play like their melee counterparts with added bonuses, so why is it so bad for these two to be roughly the same, even though they were already nerfed to an appreciable extent?
There's probably a dozen posts in this thread by now that specifically address this question, so I won't bother belaboring the point.

Moreover, the other top tier characters have changed, either because of direct changes to their moveset or the availability of non-Melee tech. As a Sheik player you should be all too aware of this. I don't think anyone seriously considers them immune to further changes either. Potentially unlikely to receive changes, but not immune.
 
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victinivcreate1

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i really don't understand this new born hatred towards melee/melee players coming primarily from the PM-only community. like i understand you guys are trying to further set the game apart from melee and make it it's own thing, which is ok, but some of you just lash out at anything melee related *coughBleck* and truly try so hard to cut off all ties with melee....when the game you are playing is literally 80% Melee

i been around since page 1 of the first project m thread back in 2010, and i gotta say that the overall atmosphere of the community has certainly changed, in a negative manner.
Lemme tell you something that may help you understand on why they hate JUST Fox.

Cuz they're tired of M2K winning lol. As soon aa Fox gets nerfed on 3.5 or 4.0, next thing they say is "we're tired of Falcos and Marths having it easy, lets nerf them too"

Jokes aside, the abrasion towards keeping Fox the same is insane. If PM wasn't a mod, this would not happen. We would shut up and get really good at the game. But BECAUSE it is a nod, we know our voices can be heard if they're loud enough.

Also anyone who says PM FOX is comparable to 2.1 Lucario and Ike/2.5 Sonic/2.6 Ivy/3.0 Mewtwo, Lucas, Sonic, Diddy, Mario and Pit is just off. Thats all I'm saying.

Another question

How would we nerf Fox so he's more balanced, but still plays like Melee?

His shield pressure will always be there, unless they make both nair, drill and shine -40 on shield or something.
Nair up smash is just a result of 10 years meta (whos to say that if PM wasn't changed for 10 years, that other characters wouldn't have something similar?)
Lasers were a part of Fox even in BRAWL.
 
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Phaiyte

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Lemme tell you something that may help you understand on why they hate JUST Fox.

Cuz they're tired of M2K winning lol. As soon aa Fox gets nerfed on 3.5 or 4.0, next thing they say is "we're tired of Falcos and Marths having it easy, lets nerf them too"

Jokes aside, the abrasion towards keeping Fox the same is insane. If PM wasn't a mod, this would not happen. We would shut up and get really good at the game. But BECAUSE it is a nod, we know our voices can be heard if they're loud enough.

Also anyone who says PM FOX is comparable to 2.1 Lucario and Ike/2.5 Sonic/2.6 Ivy/3.0 Mewtwo, Lucas, Sonic, Diddy, Mario and Pit is just off. Thats all I'm saying.

Another question

How would we nerf Fox so he's more balanced, but still plays like Melee?

His shield pressure will always be there, unless they make both nair, drill and shine -40 on shield or something.
Nair up smash is just a result of 10 years meta (whos to say that if PM wasn't changed for 10 years, that other characters wouldn't have something similar?)
Lasers were a part of Fox even in BRAWL.
I think a lot of people are getting mega toxic ideas when they see/play sm4sh Fox. It's literally impossible to play with lasers in that game lol. Shine and lasers in that game are literally at the point of useless. Every scrub in the universe got their wish, and now they want it granted on this game. But you're right though. 2.1 Lucario was some actual bull****. He could get like 30% damage from just pummels alone from a 0% grab because his pummel animation was so fast lmao.
 

Blank Mauser

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It would be amazing and add so much replayability if PM could have alpha and omega versions of each character that splits design philosophies while also being balanced with each other(Example Sheik with a Dacus, Ivy with double razor leaf but without bair). But it will probably never happen due to

1) Possible code limitations

2) Players not wanting to learn matchups

3) It being more difficult to balance.

To me good balance really just means it takes a LONG time to figure out whats truly the best.
 

Boiko

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Lemme tell you something that may help you understand on why they hate JUST Fox.

Cuz they're tired of M2K winning lol. As soon aa Fox gets nerfed on 3.5 or 4.0, next thing they say is "we're tired of Falcos and Marths having it easy, lets nerf them too"

Jokes aside, the abrasion towards keeping Fox the same is insane. If PM wasn't a mod, this would not happen. We would shut up and get really good at the game. But BECAUSE it is a nod, we know our voices can be heard if they're loud enough.

Also anyone who says PM FOX is comparable to 2.1 Lucario and Ike/2.5 Sonic/2.6 Ivy/3.0 Mewtwo, Lucas, Sonic, Diddy, Mario and Pit is just off. Thats all I'm saying.

Another question

How would we nerf Fox so he's more balanced, but still plays like Melee?

His shield pressure will always be there, unless they make both nair, drill and shine -40 on shield or something.
Nair up smash is just a result of 10 years meta (whos to say that if PM wasn't changed for 10 years, that other characters wouldn't have something similar?)
Lasers were a part of Fox even in BRAWL.
To answer your question, make his kill moves weaker. Usmash is way too strong considering how fast it is and how easy is is to combo into. Plus, he's one of the highest DPS characters in the game, so he can kill real early. Same with his uair. Uthrow uair kills Ness at 90 on most stages. Such an easy combo shouldn't kill that early. Other than that, I think he's fine. I like his design. I like his stupid pressure. He just kills way too early.
 

_Ganondorf_

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To answer your question, make his kill moves weaker. Usmash is way too strong considering how fast it is and how easy is is to combo into. Plus, he's one of the highest DPS characters in the game, so he can kill real early. Same with his uair. Uthrow uair kills Ness at 90 on most stages. Such an easy combo shouldn't kill that early. Other than that, I think he's fine. I like his design. I like his stupid pressure. He just kills way too early.
I agree 100%. My "bane of existence" is Mario's Fsmash and Dsmash, they are so easy to use and combo into stuff so easily and Ganondorf gets KO'ed from middle of Battle Field by Mario's Fsmash at 85% and Dsmash at 115%. Waaaaaaaaay too strong for how quick they are and easy it ease combo into these moves are (and this is on Ganon which is a heavy character, on a light character it would be even worse...). And unfortunately this applies to a lot of other moves and combos in the cast.

Like I said before, fast and easy moves/combos should not KO early, slow harder to hit moves should KO early... period!

If this is done I doubt anyone would complain except the people who relied on those easy kill moves/combos to win.
 

Bleck

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i really don't understand this new born hatred towards melee/melee players coming primarily from the PM-only community. like i understand you guys are trying to further set the game apart from melee and make it it's own thing, which is ok, but some of you just lash out at anything melee related *coughBleck* and truly try so hard to cut off all ties with melee....when the game you are playing is literally 80% Melee
the 80% of this game that's like Melee is the 80% that sucks
 

Paradoxium

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"Everything is subject to change"

Which includes space animals.

The idea of a character being immune to changes is dumb, especially when that character sparks so much controversy.

the 80% of this game that's like Melee is the 80% that sucks
Wait if you think 80% of it sucks does that mean you think Project M sucks?
 

MLGF

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I agree 100%. My "bane of existence" is Mario's Fsmash and Dsmash, they are so easy to use and combo into stuff so easily and Ganondorf gets KO'ed from middle of Battle Field by Mario's Fsmash at 85% and Dsmash at 115%. Waaaaaaaaay too strong for how quick they are and easy it ease combo into these moves are (and this is on Ganon which is a heavy character, on a light character it would be even worse...). And unfortunately this applies to a lot of other moves and combos in the cast.

Like I said before, fast and easy moves/combos should not KO early, slow harder to hit moves should KO early... period!

If this is done I doubt anyone would complain except the people who relied on those easy kill moves/combos to win.[/B]
Screw that, I don't want Sm4sh

the 80% of this game that's like Melee is the 80% that sucks
Then quit playing.
 
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Paradoxium

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80% was a vague exaggeration that I only parroted, try to keep u
When it comes to your posts it's pretty hard to distinguish between exaggeration and literal meanings, sometimes I wonder if you're just a troll or something.
 
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Bleck

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as of 2011 the word "troll" used in any internet-conduct related capacity essentially means "I have no idea what I'm talking about, please disregard everything I say"
 

Blank Mauser

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The dream of PM space animals:

Lasers have their damage back. However they run on an energy/ammo system that must be reloaded/charged by using neutral-B grounded(Because who ever wants to grounded laser?)

Fox:

Nair- No longer clanks with projectiles. Instead, he receives a slightly better version of his 64 Fair that does this and has longer shieldstun.

Shine- Extra hitlag/recovery is imposed on Fox so as to make guaranteed follow-ups only possible with a running start. Intangibility on early frames given back, but hitbox takes longer to come out. Making shine/multi-shine more of a quick dodge/parry/approach but less of a potent reversal. This also makes nair > shine no longer air-tight, but fair > shine would be. Air shine stays the same as it is now.

Firefox- Only the very tip of firefox leads to uair. No more dying from failing to edgegaurd.

Falco:

Dair- Has a start-up animation like in Smash 4.

Fair- Much quicker and shorter version of Falco's old reflector toss/kick. Can create/lead into DI traps on hit. Very short projectile reflect window.

Second hit of Jab- Falco's Brawl reflector kick, trips on hit.

Shine- No longer reflects projectiles or if it does only for an extremely short time period. Hitbox on back of shine either gone or has much higher knockback, making shine OOS and cross-up > shine much less potent. No B-reversal possible.

Side-B/Illusion- Jump-cancelable when mid-range shortened. Combo swag, platform swag, recovery swag, 1-frame swag.

I feel like if PM team made the space animals without as much worry about matching Melee exactly, it might be something like that. Not to mention new animations and possibly unique moves for grounded neutral-B since they'd no longer be needed.
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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I think a lot of people are getting mega toxic ideas when they see/play sm4sh Fox. It's literally impossible to play with lasers in that game lol. Shine and lasers in that game are literally at the point of useless. Every scrub in the universe got their wish, and now they want it granted on this game. But you're right though. 2.1 Lucario was some actual bull****. He could get like 30% damage from just pummels alone from a 0% grab because his pummel animation was so fast lmao.
You can use lasers in smash 4 easily, you have to be more careful.

Given what lasers have done to Melee and Brawl, I'm not surprised they made that change.

Falco got nerfed pretty hard and the compensation back was good but still overall a nerf.

Fox is still good in Smash 4 even with the laser nerfs. Him and Falco still beat out a lot of characters when want to play keep away.
 

Bleck

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Falco just straight up feels bad in Smash 4 - I want to believe he's still usable but they just straight up gutted his options
 
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victinivcreate1

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To answer your question, make his kill moves weaker. Usmash is way too strong considering how fast it is and how easy is is to combo into. Plus, he's one of the highest DPS characters in the game, so he can kill real early. Same with his uair. Uthrow uair kills Ness at 90 on most stages. Such an easy combo shouldn't kill that early. Other than that, I think he's fine. I like his design. I like his stupid pressure. He just kills way too early.
Up Smash I can understand why, but up throw up air is not guaranteed. The fact that floaties are really viable in this game pretty much nullifies this. Ness is flaoty and a mid weight too, you shouldn't be getting up throw up aired EVER. Either that Fox sucks (which Animal doesn't), or he's in your head (possibly the case).
 

Rhubarbo

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Jokes aside, the abrasion towards keeping Fox the same is insane. If PM wasn't a mod, this would not happen. We would shut up and get really good at the game. But BECAUSE it is a nod, we know our voices can be heard if they're loud enough.
If PM weren't a mod of an ancient game, Melee's top tiers wouldn't even be a question right now. If Melee featured patches - if Nintendo had a modem and wasn't lazy - I reckon Melee's top tiers would have been nerfed a very long time ago. If we just look around the corner at Street Fighter 4, we can see that game gets patched all of the time. Being a mod isn't holding Project M down, being a faithful mod to an ancient game is, however.

Also anyone who says PM FOX is comparable to 2.1 Lucario and Ike/2.5 Sonic/2.6 Ivy/3.0 Mewtwo, Lucas, Sonic, Diddy, Mario and Pit is just off. Thats all I'm saying.
The characters you've listed here are victims of the PMDT trying to make a large cast of viable characters equally good as Melee's esoteric four. Melee's top four are just inherently good in Melee's engine. There's a relatively small pool of changes from which you can draw to give any character a viable match-up against universally powerful characters like the spacies. You can give characters really good basic utility, but then you have powerhouses like Mewtwo and Lucas. You can give characters hard counters, but then you get boring solutions against the spacies like intentional chain grabs and auto combos. If you want to make the whole cast viable, these solutions aren't good enough. The end result would either be balance along the lines of Brawl -, or key-and-lock solutions, which no one finds fun.

These listed characters may not be as powerful as Fox/Falco, but they're a by-product of being balanced around Fox/Falco.

Another question

How would we nerf Fox so he's more balanced, but still plays like Melee?
Why should a changed Fox have to play anything like he does in Melee. Obviously a drastic redesign isn't the default solution, but the idea here is that it should be a possibility.

His shield pressure will always be there, unless they make both nair, drill and shine -40 on shield or something.
These would be flat nerfs. They're a possibility, but probably not the answer.

Nair up smash is just a result of 10 years meta (whos to say that if PM wasn't changed for 10 years, that other characters wouldn't have something similar?)
Nair to up smash strings are a result of Fox's quick falling speed, low landing lag, and exceptional power. Whether or not it took 10 years to find this combo is completely irrelevant; it's still blatantly overpowered. It would be a bad thing if more Project M characters had options like nair to up smash.
 

Phaiyte

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Nair to up smash strings are a result of Fox's quick falling speed, low landing lag, and exceptional power. Whether or not it took 10 years to find this combo is completely irrelevant; it's still blatantly overpowered. It would be a bad thing if more Project M characters had options like nair to up smash.
bae, if you're being actually killed by an actual nair > usmash chain, you suck. Should I link you to a page that shows you how to DI and/or tech?
 

victinivcreate1

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If PM weren't a mod of an ancient game, Melee's top tiers wouldn't even be a question right now. If Melee featured patches - if Nintendo had a modem and wasn't lazy - I reckon Melee's top tiers would have been nerfed a very long time ago. If we just look around the corner at Street Fighter 4, we can see that game gets patched all of the time. Being a mod isn't holding Project M down, being a faithful mod to an ancient game is, however.

What game was being patched in 2001?


The characters you've listed here are victims of the PMDT trying to make a large cast of viable characters equally good as Melee's esoteric four. Melee's top four are just inherently good in Melee's engine. There's a relatively small pool of changes from which you can draw to give any character a viable match-up against universally powerful characters like the spacies. You can give characters really good basic utility, but then you have powerhouses like Mewtwo and Lucas. You can give characters hard counters, but then you get boring solutions against the spacies like intentional chain grabs and auto combos. If you want to make the whole cast viable, these solutions aren't good enough. The end result would either be balance along the lines of Brawl -, or key-and-lock solutions, which no one finds fun.

IMO the PMDT has the right ideas, but the wrong execution. They're properly making other characters viable, but doing so they make one option really good, instead of having 4 or 5 solid options. Like Ness for example. PK Fire and down throw are free moves. A better way to build Ness would have been buff up some of his weaker moves. PK Fire was already kinda decent.

These listed characters may not be as powerful as Fox/Falco, but they're a by-product of being balanced around Fox/Falco.

They were more powerful than Fox and Falco lol.


Why should a changed Fox have to play anything like he does in Melee. Obviously a drastic redesign isn't the default solution, but the idea here is that it should be a possibility.

Because this game is at least 60% built with Melee in mind. Wavedashes and its variations, moonwalks, hitstun value identical to Melee, L-Cancels, etc. Every other Melee top tier is virtually playing the same; why shouldn't Fox?

These would be flat nerfs. They're a possibility, but probably not the answer.



Nair to up smash strings are a result of Fox's quick falling speed, low landing lag, and exceptional power. Whether or not it took 10 years to find this combo is completely irrelevant; it's still blatantly overpowered. It would be a bad thing if more Project M characters had options like nair to up smash.
MK can nair into running Lunge DC around 70-90. Other characters have basic set ups. Don't think that Fox is the only one with a set up into a KO move.
 

popsofctown

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I used to play Charizard in PM and put in tons and tons and tons of hours playing him, but then I realized I played better as Sheik with almost no practice. And since Sheik is basically the same as Melee Sheik, why don't I just go enter Melee tournaments and play Sheik and get more respect from purists and only need to learn to deal with Melee top tier instead of Melee top tier plus PM gimmicks I have to learn before I can beat them?

That's kinda been my experience with things.
 
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Rhubarbo

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victinivcreate1 said:
What game was being patched in 2001?
No console games, that's for sure. I wasn't really trying to attack Melee or Nintendo here, I was just trying to show that Melee not being patched wasn't necessarily a good thing.

victinivcreate1 said:
IMO the PMDT has the right ideas, but the wrong execution. They're properly making other characters viable, but doing so they make one option really good, instead of having 4 or 5 solid options. Like Ness for example. PK Fire and down throw are free moves. A better way to build Ness would have been buff up some of his weaker moves. PK Fire was already kinda decent.
Fist of all, straight buffs aren't a good way to drive viability. Secondly, what sort of dynamic tools could the PMDT possibly give characters to compete with the spacies? If the answer is really strong tools, they have failed because the game would feel one dimensional. If the answer is specific counters, then they have failed because the game would be polarized in the direction of a few characters. If you can make the rest of the game more interesting, diverse, by changing Melee's best, I would say that's the best thing to do. We'll never know until substantially altered versions of Melee's top tier characters are put out there for the public to see - the two nerfs PM Fox has received are negligible and a bad example of willingness to change.

victinivcreate1 said:
They were more powerful than Fox and Falco lol.
That's what I meant. Not as powerful=more powerful. Really, it was just bad wording on my part.

victinivcreate1 said:
Because this game is at least 60% built with Melee in mind. Wavedashes and its variations, moonwalks, hitstun value identical to Melee, L-Cancels, etc. Every other Melee top tier is virtually playing the same; why shouldn't Fox?
Not every Melee top tier should play the same way, Fox is no exception. If the game can benefit in any way from changing any character in terms of balance, variation, and added interaction, it should.

victinivcreate1 said:
MK can nair into running Lunge DC around 70-90. Other characters have basic set ups. Don't think that Fox is the only one with a set up into a KO move.
Easy set-ups that can KO early or rack up a ton of percent aren't good.
 
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Paradoxium

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Nair to up smash strings are a result of Fox's quick falling speed, low landing lag, and exceptional power. Whether or not it took 10 years to find this combo is completely irrelevant; it's still blatantly overpowered. It would be a bad thing if more Project M characters had options like nair to up smash.
Pikachu has nair upsmash, except his nair travels farther and his upsmash is stronger (and it can also combo into thunder). A lot of characters do have conversions into kill moves, its apart of the game. I wouldn't say nair upsmash is overpowered, maybe just the upsmash itself.
 

4tlas

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I really don't like seeing the strawman "bcuz melee" being thrown around here.
When did people start believing this is a thing? Do we have a quote from one of the developers with "bcuz Melee"? Because I find it hard to believe. Fox and Falco are solid characters( to say the least) with an extremely extensive metagame behind them, same for Marth Sheik and Jiggs. Yes, Marth Sheik and Jiggs exist too, Melee isn't Fox/falco ahoy like some of you folk seem to believe. Moreover, I think the idea that Melee players who want their character, in this case Fox/Falco, shouldn't be met with so much disapproval. We're trying so hard to make melee high tiers play like their melee counterparts with added bonuses, so why is it so bad for these two to be roughly the same, even though they were already nerfed to an appreciable extent?


This means nothing. So much of this game is made from elements borrowed from Melee. The original goal was a recreation of a melee environment and melee veterans, notably Falco. What you are playing and loving is a result of that goal, it's a result of bcuz muhlay.

Roy doesn't combo fastfallers. CFalcon doesn't combo fastfallers. Hell Ganon didn't combo any better in Melee and was actually worse, and he was still in high mid tier. Comboing into rest is not Jiggs' BnB. It's a thing, but it has very little to do with her ability in Melee which was to capitalize on the difference between others' recoveries and hers to push others far from the stage. Her high aerial mobility helped a lot in that. But recovering in PM is much easier than Melee, so she loses that. Spacies have even matchups with Samus and Sheik, but neither of them 0-death Fox or Falco. Have you played Melee?

Edit: Goddamit Smashboards, why do you always throw away my posts when they are REALLY long?! I had more but I don't remember it now. Maybe if you poke holes in this I'll remember what the rest of it was and we can continue the debate?


I considered redoing this post (the one you quoted) before posting it, as I thought it sounded too antagonistic. It is late at night for me, but I will try to tone it back down for this one.

1) The intent seems to be to balance the cast by making all the characters on par with the Melee top tier. I don't remember where this was said and am too lazy to go find it right now, but I'm pretty sure this we can agree on anyway.

2) Previous discussions about altering Fox have frequently boiled down to "don't alienate the Melee players". I don't know if this is the PMDTs opinion, and I wasn't claiming it was. But it is an argument often brought up as to why the Melee tops are barely changed, so I decided to preemptively dispute it. Since this post was separated from my others, I guess that does look like a strawman.

3) Many people claim that the Melee top was well designed and that's why their designs should be untouched. I think this is nonsense, as just because you can find a way for the top tier to fill a few (broad) niches appropriately doesn't mean you shouldn't redesign them to fill smaller niches, allowing for more character diversity. In a position-based game, speed = flexibility.

4) I understand what the original goal was. I understand why we have what we have. This is irrelevant to this discussion, and that is what I was pointing out. Again, preemptively, and thus looks like a strawman.

5) Roy does combo fastfallers, but nevertheless that is not the point. You are saying that my analysis is incorrect, which I'm sure it may be. I had more analysis written, but I deleted it and kept my main point instead. Ganondorf worked in Melee because one solid hit knocked opponents off the stage and Melee edgeguarding was far more effective than in PM. Ganondorf in PM does not have combos, does not recover, and does not have a neutral game to make up for it. Jigglypuff worked in Melee for 2 reasons: bair with multijump for good gimps, and rest combos on fastfallers. I am serious about the rest combos. Even if they weren't used prevalently, they had to be played around much like how you had to play around ICs grab. Jiggs now has neither of those things on the floaty cast with good recoveries.

Sorry, I had other points but Smashboards deleted them all. I think they were something about nobody thinking that Melee is just spacies, but the spacies are the still-untouched members that are warping the metagame so they are useful to discuss. Jiggs should be changed too. Sheik needs a useful sideB. Marth could probably get dancing blade altered to be different. This is not Melee, nor should it be. Changes should be made where appropriate, and I think Melee top tiers are appropriate candidates.

Edit: Oh, I remembered one. I'm not being hostile toward Melee players, nor am I saying that we should throw Melee out completely. I'm not saying "eh, **** em", I'm saying "don't give preferential treatment".
 
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victinivcreate1

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make upsmash and upair kill 15% later. thats literally it. the shine and laser nerfs, and banning YS solved 90% of fox's degeneracy.
I don't mind this. One more nair lol. Then again I don't main spacies so never should have been flipping out in the first place?
 
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oh well the tl;dr is that fox and falco are still both absurd in design but they have such a dynamic risk/reward basis behind their interactions that it works out well in practice even if in theory its still ridiculous. also the melee fox falco players think they're too easy to play now, but they also don't want to play any of the harder characters? this is why we don't care about them.
 
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