I really don't like seeing the strawman "bcuz melee" being thrown around here.
When did people start believing this is a thing? Do we have a quote from one of the developers with "bcuz Melee"? Because I find it hard to believe. Fox and Falco are solid characters( to say the least) with an extremely extensive metagame behind them, same for Marth Sheik and Jiggs. Yes, Marth Sheik and Jiggs exist too, Melee isn't Fox/falco ahoy like some of you folk seem to believe. Moreover, I think the idea that Melee players who want their character, in this case Fox/Falco, shouldn't be met with so much disapproval. We're trying so hard to make melee high tiers play like their melee counterparts with added bonuses, so why is it so bad for these two to be roughly the same, even though they were already nerfed to an appreciable extent?
This means nothing. So much of this game is made from elements borrowed from Melee. The original goal was a recreation of a melee environment and melee veterans, notably Falco. What you are playing and loving is a result of that goal, it's a result of bcuz muhlay.
Roy doesn't combo fastfallers. CFalcon doesn't combo fastfallers. Hell Ganon didn't combo any better in Melee and was actually worse, and he was still in high mid tier. Comboing into rest is not Jiggs' BnB. It's a thing, but it has very little to do with her ability in Melee which was to capitalize on the difference between others' recoveries and hers to push others far from the stage. Her high aerial mobility helped a lot in that. But recovering in PM is much easier than Melee, so she loses that. Spacies have even matchups with Samus and Sheik, but neither of them 0-death Fox or Falco. Have you played Melee?
Edit: Goddamit Smashboards, why do you always throw away my posts when they are REALLY long?! I had more but I don't remember it now. Maybe if you poke holes in this I'll remember what the rest of it was and we can continue the debate?
I considered redoing this post (the one you quoted) before posting it, as I thought it sounded too antagonistic. It is late at night for me, but I will try to tone it back down for this one.
1) The intent seems to be to balance the cast by making all the characters on par with the Melee top tier. I don't remember where this was said and am too lazy to go find it right now, but I'm pretty sure this we can agree on anyway.
2) Previous discussions about altering Fox have frequently boiled down to "don't alienate the Melee players". I don't know if this is the PMDTs opinion, and I wasn't claiming it was. But it is an argument often brought up as to why the Melee tops are barely changed, so I decided to preemptively dispute it. Since this post was separated from my others, I guess that does look like a strawman.
3) Many people claim that the Melee top was well designed and that's why their designs should be untouched. I think this is nonsense, as just because you can find a way for the top tier to fill a few (broad) niches appropriately doesn't mean you shouldn't redesign them to fill smaller niches, allowing for more character diversity. In a position-based game, speed = flexibility.
4) I understand what the original goal was. I understand why we have what we have. This is irrelevant to this discussion, and that is what I was pointing out. Again, preemptively, and thus looks like a strawman.
5) Roy does combo fastfallers, but nevertheless that is not the point. You are saying that my analysis is incorrect, which I'm sure it may be. I had more analysis written, but I deleted it and kept my main point instead. Ganondorf worked in Melee because one solid hit knocked opponents off the stage and Melee edgeguarding was far more effective than in PM. Ganondorf in PM does not have combos, does not recover, and does not have a neutral game to make up for it. Jigglypuff worked in Melee for 2 reasons: bair with multijump for good gimps, and rest combos on fastfallers. I am serious about the rest combos. Even if they weren't used prevalently, they had to be played around much like how you had to play around ICs grab. Jiggs now has neither of those things on the floaty cast with good recoveries.
Sorry, I had other points but Smashboards deleted them all. I think they were something about nobody thinking that Melee is just spacies, but the spacies are the still-untouched members that are warping the metagame so they are useful to discuss. Jiggs should be changed too. Sheik needs a useful sideB. Marth could probably get dancing blade altered to be different. This is not Melee, nor should it be. Changes should be made where appropriate, and I think Melee top tiers are appropriate candidates.
Edit: Oh, I remembered one. I'm not being hostile toward Melee players, nor am I saying that we should throw Melee out completely. I'm not saying "eh, **** em", I'm saying "don't give preferential treatment".
