Should Melee's Top Tiers Stay Untouchable Through this Critical Turning Point in Project M's Life?

[Frost | Odds]

@ PandaPanda Senketsu

Uh, no. He has to work pretty hard, but he has pretty emphatically winning matchups on most of the cast. Easier shdl and lack of shinelock (and other PM stuff like RAR) help a lot with his execution barrier, and his particular style of rushdown is mostly unaffected by the projectile-heavy/spacing-based campy characters that dominate the top tier. His only losing matchups are Mewtwo and Pit.

Hell, Falco is widely regarded as vastly worse than Fox (which imo is nonsense), and I have way more experience as Toon Link (and Wolf) than Falco, but my Falco still gets better tourney results most of the time. Most spacie players are just pretty good at the complainin'-'bout-nerfs meta.

 

[victra♥]

Fox gets **** on by almost every single character in project M, really the only thing I think is overbearing about him is his upsmash. Fox just gets boned so hard in this game.

people hate on zero for playing a campy fox in pm but that is literally the only way you can play fox without getting absolutely bodied in pm. it's not fun for either of the players or the spectators

 

[GP&B]

Fox avoids getting ass-blasted by combos by being run'n'gun which is what he's amazing at. He specifically succeeds because run'n'gun greatly subverts this weakness. I don't think it's a particularly good play style for him to be forced into hence why I want to see the absurdity of punish games drop off a bit more (and that's exactly what is going to happen anyways). The biggest issue is the collateral damage against characters with Fox-like physics attributes (or fatties for that matter) but nowhere near the same Fox-like goodness. The ideal goal should be cutting this back to reduce polarizing matchups and bringing Fox into line alongside the other top tiers which results in everything falling into place (again, ideally).

I have a beef with using combo food as a weakness to justify just how good Fox is when other characters blatantly don't have the tools to cover that same exact weakness. I keep mentioning that 3.5 is the focus of this thread because ideally these shouldn't be as significant in the metagame anymore, reducing the relevancy of saying "But Fox gets destroyed on hit." So does Roy and Falco because of the same reasons, so does Ike and Link (and others like them) because they have terrible defensive responses, so does Bowser/Charizard/D3 because fatties (at least partially alleviated by high survivability and great OoS options... sometimes).

 

[victinivcreate1]

Bowser is fundamentally bad though. Being fat in a game where combos do serious damage is bad. Bowser may die on hit, but Bowser is unreasonably weak in so many areas. I'd honestly say Bowser's best strengths are his weight (and subsequently his CC) and his his OoS game. @ Frost | Odds you probably know more about Bowser than I do, you could tell 'em.

Fox dies on hit, but he is very light too. So Fox gets hit, he should be dead. Also Fox falls a hella lot faster than Bowser. Throw combos are really legit on Fox because he's so light and his fall speed acceleration and average fall speed are so high. Of course I shouldn't have to say this, we all have about 10 years of Fox experience (the first 3 years lets face it, Melee was just randoms having fun and messing around, and then we had 2 players on the caliber of near demi god). Bowser's weight means that throw combos work on him, but not to the same effect that they do on Fox.

Link is better than Fox in PM. I don't say this because M2K says this, M2K at a time said Mewtwo was mid tier and I always though PM Mewtwo was at least high. Link being combo food isn't THAT big of a deal, considering he's virtually IMMUNE to throw combos because frame 4 (I think) nair, and weight value of 104.

On a different note, is it bad to have one or two characters dominate?

I honestly don't mind when some characters are made worse than others, because look at what can happen sometimes. In Melee, we had Axe, Taj and aMSa destroy nearly everyone with their mid and low tier mains. In Brawl, at APEX 2010, we had that Ike player San, who turned the tides of Ike's tier placing (he went from low tier, 29th, to mid tier, 23rd place in less than a year). Then we had Salem who out of nowhere won APEX 2013 with a B Tier character at the time, ZSS (and he beat the previous Apex champion Otori, an MK main, as well as M2K, Mikeneko, Dojo, Mr.R, mikeHAZE, and a bunch of other names). Point is, when people explore the depths of their character, amazing things can happen. Things like this are what generate some hype. People using mid and low tiers, beating players who main high and top tiers, showing that the top tiers are not unbeatable. This is why I don't mind Fox being the way he is now, and why I'm against him being nerfed further.

 

[leekslap]

I can't wait to taste your tears.

WTF does this even mean?

 

[trash?]

he is going to curl his tongue under your salty eyeballs as drops fall from your face

This thread is about changing them for design purposes, I don't understand where anyone is coming from if they post "Don't nerf!" because that has nothing to do with this.

This isn't about the spacies dominating the meta (though a critical design choice was to give most/all characters anti-spacie moves so it sounds like they do dominate the meta by warping viability of non-combo-centric movesets), this is about spacies being dumb character designs by themselves. Not against other characters. Just by themselves.

If possible, get rid of the 100% useless moves and change the polarizingly good ones. Not as a nerf, but just a fundamental change that makes the player use the options of the whole moveset as opposed to the great versatility of a few moves.

I want you people to read this post slowly, several times

 

[Kneato]

I don't think they should be regarded as "untouchable", but that doesn't imply that they should be changed just for the sake of it.

With the next patch being largely focused on general character design and sweeping changes being applied to a large amount of the cast, I predict there will be a large shift in the current perceived tiers and a number of the melee top tiers who some of you argue are currently not good (fox etc) will be more successful in the 3.5 environment.

Additionally, I'm still of the opinion that the cast should be balanced around the melee top tiers. Years of competitive melee show that they are relatively well designed, and rather than try to nerf of buff them to fit in with the rest of the cast, the rest of the cast should be made to be as "good" or "well designed" as them.

Mostly, I don't think any of us can predict what kind of changes should or should not be made with the Melee top tiers until we see them in 3.5.

 

[TimeSmash]

he is going to curl his tongue under your salty eyeballs as drops fall from your face

I want you people to read this post slowly, several times

And there really are some moves that need to be changed. Peach DSmash is good but her other moves for the most part get a lot of move, save UpAir, which is actually pretty good, except no one wants to use it.

On the other hand, you have things like Jigg's Ftilt, which never gets used because there's always a better option. If it comboed into itself or something, it'd be a better move, and yet not enough to be like "Oh? Jiggs? Ftilt is the only way to go." Which brings up the use of Bair, but Jiggs currently can't use Bair as successfully, and her whole playstyle isn't really adhesive to the meta anyways.

Whereas in Melee and this game, Fox has a polarizing UpSmash, a good tool among several others he already has in possession.

In short, I agree with 4tlas

 

[Boiko]

Lol @ everyone who thinks that Fox isn't just below M2, Pit, Lucas, Link, Mario, and Sonic. Exclude these characters for my next point please.

Spacies dominate the neutral game harder than any other character. Fox can force approaches with lasers and if he chooses to approach nair/dair shine pressure is unparalleled. Then he'll kill 80% of the cast below 100% with usmash or uthrow uair.

The flip side is that he gets comboed relatively hard and his recovery isn't super good. But ilillusion is super fast and easy to cancel and outside out a hard read FF is relatively hard to punish.

Saying that there are no top spacies players is silly. Literally two of the top players play Fox.

People play other top characters for different reasons.

PLEASE PLAY A REALLY GOOD SPACIE PLAYER BEFORE SAYING FOX ISNT GOOD. I play with Animal. He beat Zhu in melee and his PM Fox is about 100 times more terrifying. Ask John Numbers and Gallo about it.

EDIT: In conclusion make his usmash and uair weaker. He's a tiny woodland creature. Outside that he's just Fox and I don't expect that to change.

 

[steelguttey]

the design standpoint of "everyone has a 0-death on spacies and spacies have a 0-death on everyone so its k" is ridiculous cause spacies have better neutral games then 70% of the cast. not only that, but most characters dont even have these. (god i talk about this character too much) olimar doesnt have on and he has stupid combos on the rest of the cast. spacies have polarizing matchups almost as much as ivysaur but people dont want to admit it cause theyre still humping melee's leg. whats the problem with spacies being low-high tier? if yo ulike the character, stick with the ****ing character, dont drop it because usmash is slightly different.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

If the balance level of 3.5 is below Fox than he should be nerfed, if the power level is above or the same as Fox then he should stay the same. So yea, Fox's nerfs probably depend on the strength of the rest of the cast when 3.5 comes out.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Someone give me a list of matchups that Fox actually polarizes.

I just wanna see. I play a bunch of characters so I just wanna see what the general consensus is.

 

[Deleted member]

melee top tiers should absolutely be subject to change. PM has been out since 2011, if we weren't gonna get the melee kids by now, it ain't gonna happen. let's pull out the stops and make the game ****ing awesome imo

 

[trash?]

dude you've had like three different people now mention to you design changes aren't fully based around nerfs, chill out

 

[Paradoxium]

Someone give me a list of matchups that Fox actually polarizes.

I just wanna see. I play a bunch of characters so I just wanna see what the general consensus is.

I went Olimar once in tournament and got 4 stocked by a Fox, does that count as a bad mu?

 

[victinivcreate1]

I went Olimar once in tournament and got 4 stocked by a Fox, does that count as a bad mu?

Do you main Olimar?

 

[Paradoxium]

Do you main Olimar?

no...I thought I could just upsmash him a bunch, but things didn't work out.

 

[Paradoxium]

Yea and can someone lock this, we are just gonna go in circles arguing about space animals while making no actual progress, they used to ban ****ty threads like this all the time.

 

[steelguttey]

Someone give me a list of matchups that Fox actually polarizes.

I just wanna see. I play a bunch of characters so I just wanna see what the general consensus is.

take your tier list

now take the bottom half of that tier list and make it bold

thats more or less it

 

[Boiko]

What do you mean by "Fox polarizes?" Do you mean wins?

Because if that's the question, pretty much the entire cast outside of M2 and Sonic. Maybe a few others. Not Lucas though. Shine spike is that poor boy's demise.

 

[steelguttey]

polarizing means that not only does he win but he ****ing destroys them and this usually means that his bad matchups are really bad (like ivysaur) but this isnt the case considering his bad matchups are at a very slight disadvantage at best

 

[Boiko]

polarizing means that not only does he win but he ****ing destroys them and this usually means that his bad matchups are really bad (like ivysaur) but this isnt the case considering his bad matchups are at a very slight disadvantage at best

Gotcha. This is pretty accurate if that's the case.

 

[GP&B]

dude you've had like three different people now mention to you design changes aren't fully based around nerfs, chill out

Gonna quote this just to repeat for like the fourth time now. If Fox stands to be high tier with 3.5, then maybe he should be left alone. The point being made is that he absolutely should not be untouchable especially if he proves to be dominant again.

Additionally, I'm still of the opinion that the cast should be balanced around the melee top tiers.

Project M has historically failed to make this work and I'm much more inclined to attribute this to trying to make non-rushdown archetypes viable next to spacies and discovering that it requires giving them stupid traits.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Expecting to beat really good Melee players cuz their characters got nerfed is silly.

Though I would have to say being good with Fox in PM and Melee are different beasts and take a different mindset. PM Fox is honestly forced to play more defensively and just soft nair/bair into Usmash all day. The focus on tight spacing is less apparent because you can honestly just roam freely on large stages without consequence in PM match-ups, where as Melee characters cover ground so quickly its better to suffocate your opponent. Not to mention most PM characters have great projectiles but Fox nair goes through all of them. Falco can honestly still play the same if not better in that regard because of shine not having any projectile reflecting lag.

I'm honestly indifferent on the subject of Melee characters being problematic. You could change the flavor of the game drastically by altering them, but I don't think they should just get straight nerfs. Rather, they could be nerfed and at the same time be made more fun to play.

A lot of great Melee Foxs will do worse in a match-up than a well-versed PM player regardless of how good a Fox they play. Simply because they know the match-up. So saying "We don't see much of Fox winning" or "Even the best Fox players have trouble winning" are both kind of misleading statements.

PS The high prevalence of Pokemon Stadium 2 being played on helps Fox a lot too.

 

[Mera Mera]

Bowser's weight means that throw combos work on him, but not to the same effect that they do on Fox.

Having a high weight is (almost*) an objectively good thing when it comes to avoiding throw combos. Weight does not affect the knockback of a throw (unlike all other hits). It does, however, increase the duration of the throw (including the endlag), which makes it easier to escape followups from throws. In fact, Fox's uthrow -> uair combo doesn't work on high weight characters in Melee or PM because of the increased endlag on Fox's uthrow and because they go decently far as a result of all being relatively floaty (a character's gravity attribute does not affect knockback, but it does affect the distance they go, particularly vertically, since gravity is still in affect during knockback / hitstun... hence why Fox, who has the highest gravity in Melee / PM gets comboed so hard).

*: I said almost because iirc, technically having a higher weight makes you have very slightly more hitstun per knockback.

That said, being fat really hurts you when it comes to being comboed, and if your weight doesn't save you from the first follow up from the throw, then your weight WILL hurt you in terms of combos from there on (unless said follow up is another grab).

 

[InfinityCollision]

Someone give me a list of matchups that Fox actually polarizes.

Stop for a moment, please. There's a reason we keep quoting that one post.

Fox's/Falco's very existence is polarizing, and regardless of the actual matchup ratios or whether or not they're even being played at the time the simple fact that they're part of the game has probably had an impact on the matchup at hand.

Since you got this far without getting the point I'm going to ask you to read the above again, then I'm going to spell it out for you. A lot of characters have been given tools that are well-suited to dealing with other characters that have spacie-esque properties. Thing is, these changes don't just affect Fox and Falco. At minimum these changes also affect how well said character can continue strings on Wolf, MK, Lucas, Diddy, Roy, and Captain Falcon. Effects may also bleed into comboability in other matchups at certain percents, or even limit options against other opponents because of the way a given tool was changed. You then end up rebalancing to account for this (notice how many characters I just mentioned have ridiculous combo games etc?), which requires you to rebalance in a broader spread to accommodate those changes, etc.

That's not even touching on more subtle interactions like dealing with their neutral game.

Making spacies not dumb means other things can safely be made less dumb in a way that makes quality design and game balance just that little bit easier to achieve. Stop fixating on nerfs, that's only (and only potentially) a tiny part of the equation.

 

[JANKX]

Bowser is fundamentally bad though. Being fat in a game where combos do serious damage is bad. Bowser may die on hit, but Bowser is unreasonably weak in so many areas. I'd honestly say Bowser's best strengths are his weight (and subsequently his CC) and his his OoS game. @ Frost | Odds you probably know more about Bowser than I do, you could tell 'em.

I used to do good with Bowser in the early days of PM 3.02, and my first impression was "wow he's a beast!" But then my success with him gradually dwindled as my opponents got used to the matchup. I still like the overall feel for his character, and a few tweaks could allow his current repertoire to be able to deal with more situations.

Bowser would benefit much from subtle adjustments to startup/cooldown on certain moves. For instance, you could reduce the startup time for his jumps to make wavedashing easier to execute for spacing. Startup on side-smash could be slightly lowered, and this advantage of increased execution speed could be balanced by reducing knockback and/or increasing cooldown. F-air could have sweetspot for a semi spike. Down-b could allow for a wider range of lateral drift.

One radical change I had in mind is making down-b ground pound were somehow cancellable into a different option. Imagine if cancelling out of it so that it could be used as a fast jump, from which you'd be able to perform any aerial move. This type of change might be OP if poorly executed, but I thought it was a neat possibility, regardless.

 

[kaizo13]

why change melee top tiers when PM characters have yet to even establish a developed presence in the game. 1 year of beta v3.0 (which has shown to have quite a few design flaws) is not enough to warrant such changes. PM characters haven't been finalized in any shape way or form, how can fox be polarizing in a game with an under-developed cast?

the best thing to do would be to balance around whats already established. We have 13 years of melee history. At no point was fox ever unbeatable, all we truly learned over time was that we had a roster full of characters, that were substantially worse than fox and falco...and now we have the power to change that.

So far, the little info we know about 3.5 is already GAME CHANGING, and there's definitely more to come. matchups are likely to change drastically with the upcoming recovery/design adjustments... isn't it a bit early to ask for such changes? i'd say about 3-5 years too early

also since people are going to bring up that it's not for balancing purposes but for design, well the only real design issues have already been taken care of which were invincibility on a 1 frame move...and damage% on a spammable long range projectile.

 

[MLGF]

People acting like one year of the "modern" era is like a year of early meta...
The amount of progress in competitive fighting games is bat**** crazy now, quit acting like that excuse fits.

 

[trash?]

every single horrible top tier in every version, from ivy to sonic, had their brokenness caused almost entirely from having tools against spacies

this is because when your options outbeat a space animal's, they will outbeat everyone else in the damn game, because fox doesn't have average tools, he has amazing, sometimes completely flawless tools. for christ sake, he has a projectile that covers an entire horizontal area and can be spammed without lag by shorthopping them. he has all the mobility in the world, yet he can just use it to keep away, forcing everyone else to approach for him by slowly pushing up damage with, again, a projectile that covers everything horizontally within a half-second

so then you get characters who can beat out lasers, right? maybe they're mobile enough to get around it like MK or sonic, maybe they just go right through them head-on like bowser's armor or mewtwo's teleport. except, whoops, now you made those characters effectively immune to EVERY OTHER PROJECTILE IN THE GAME, because if they can deal with lasers, a slow fireball or leaf blade don't mean a damn thing to them, since lasers are twice the effectiveness mario's neutralb ever could be, ending lag be damned

the unwillingness to actually fix these characters, instead just trying to build up balance around their instability, is exactly the cause of the toxicity of some characters people despise so much

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

every single horrible top tier in every version, from ivy to sonic, had their brokenness caused almost entirely from having tools against spacies

this is because when your options outbeat a space animal's, they will outbeat everyone else in the damn game, because fox doesn't have average tools, he has amazing, sometimes completely flawless tools. for christ sake, he has a projectile that covers an entire horizontal area and can be spammed without lag by shorthopping them. he has all the mobility in the world, yet he can just use it to keep away, forcing everyone else to approach for him by slowly pushing up damage with, again, a projectile that covers everything horizontally within a half-second

so then you get characters who can beat out lasers, right? maybe they're mobile enough to get around it like MK or sonic, maybe they just go right through them head-on like bowser's armor or mewtwo's teleport. except, whoops, now you made those characters effectively immune to EVERY OTHER PROJECTILE IN THE GAME, because if they can deal with lasers, a slow fireball or leaf blade don't mean a damn thing to them, since lasers are twice the effectiveness mario's neutralb ever could be, ending lag be damned

the unwillingness to actually fix these characters, instead just trying to build up balance around their instability, is exactly the cause of the toxicity of some characters people despise so much

Seriously, PREACH.

I'm going to figure out how to sig this, because *yes*.

 

[Frost | Odds]

every single horrible top tier in every version, from ivy to sonic, had their brokenness caused almost entirely from having tools against spacies

this is because when your options outbeat a space animal's, they will outbeat everyone else in the damn game, because fox doesn't have average tools, he has amazing, sometimes completely flawless tools. for christ sake, he has a projectile that covers an entire horizontal area and can be spammed without lag by shorthopping them. he has all the mobility in the world, yet he can just use it to keep away, forcing everyone else to approach for him by slowly pushing up damage with, again, a projectile that covers everything horizontally within a half-second

so then you get characters who can beat out lasers, right? maybe they're mobile enough to get around it like MK or sonic, maybe they just go right through them head-on like bowser's armor or mewtwo's teleport. except, whoops, now you made those characters effectively immune to EVERY OTHER PROJECTILE IN THE GAME, because if they can deal with lasers, a slow fireball or leaf blade don't mean a damn thing to them, since lasers are twice the effectiveness mario's neutralb ever could be, ending lag be damned

the unwillingness to actually fix these characters, instead just trying to build up balance around their instability, is exactly the cause of the toxicity of some characters people despise so much

Can't like this hard enough. I wish I'd had the insight to articulate this properly earlier.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Really, Canon's post here is excellent. I've added it to the OP.

 

[Alex Night]

Aside from that, Sheik needs her old down throw.

ಠ_ಠ

Spoiler

She doesn't need a CG on half the cast that can lead into a Fair like in Melee. As for Fox/Falco, let them be redesigned within the ideals of 3.5. If every character in Project M, including Charizard who literally has little to no polarizing attributes, is going to be subject to change, then so should the Melee Top Tiers if they prove to be toxic enough. No character should be seen as special and if any Melee player can't handle the fact that their Melee Top Tier doesn't fit in a Project M environment because of their design, then there's still Melee to continuously drink what's left of the blood.

 

[4tlas]

Another thing I think should be mentioned regarding the debate of whether or not we should want Melee top tiers to be redesignable is the fact that this mod is intended to be by players, for players. For which players? The ones who WANT to play it. Now that it is established and can clearly stand on its own, there is NO need to purposely design things with the intent of expanding that playerbase. Catering to Melee-only competitive players that don't really want to play PM is unnecessary. So anybody who wants them untouched "because Melee" can play those characters in Melee.

The people who love this game will play it, and that's plenty. The objective should not be to make Melee+, it should be to make Super Smash Bros. PM.

And another thing, I think polarizing means it warps the game around it, not just that it warps Fox/Falco/whoever's matchups. If that doesn't make sense, think about Brawl's tierlist. Metaknight's power and therefore prevalence in tournaments warped the entire tierlist, creating a huge ripple effect of viability that changed it to no longer be "how good is this character compared to the cast" but instead "oh and how bad is the MK MU". And the fact that that changed who played what also warped things further, because if Ganon/Zelda are so incredibly bad against MK, my character doesn't need to be good against them (since nobody will play them anyway). The Ganon/Zelda MU is irrelevent.

Movesets have been designed and tweaked to combo fastfallers. Comboing fastfallers is so necessary in this meta that non-combo movesets are unviable. Look at the 3 most universally agreed "worst" characters: Ganondorf, Ice Climbers, and Jigglypuff. Ganon has so few combos and little neutral game. Ice Climbers can no longer do some of the insane chaingrab stuff, reducing their comboability. Jigglypuff can combo spacies into rest but not much else, and other characters can escape these combos. All 3 of these characters have few combos, which wouldn't be a problem if everyone else's weren't so awesome! And they have to be that way because spacies are so broken that they have to be full->deathable just to make the MU even.

Tone everything down design-wise, as indicated by the PMDT blog. This includes Melee top tiers.

 

[JOE!]

What I never, ever get is why so much care is put toward "melee" players, when it really only means folks who mained the Melee top 8. Other Melee veterans have seen big changes like new attacks, vastly different properties, and nobody really bats an eye. Or what about people from brawl who had their mains RADICALLY changed?

Why cater to just those who played a select few characters in a game that's purpose is to make them ALL relevant?

 

[shairn]

I really don't like seeing the strawman "bcuz melee" being thrown around here.

Another thing I think should be mentioned regarding the debate of whether or not we should want Melee top tiers to be redesignable is the fact that this mod is intended to be by players, for players. For which players? The ones who WANT to play it. Now that it is established and can clearly stand on its own, there is NO need to purposely design things with the intent of expanding that playerbase. Catering to Melee-only competitive players that don't really want to play PM is unnecessary. So anybody who wants them untouched "because Melee" can play those characters in Melee.

When did people start believing this is a thing? Do we have a quote from one of the developers with "bcuz Melee"? Because I find it hard to believe. Fox and Falco are solid characters( to say the least) with an extremely extensive metagame behind them, same for Marth Sheik and Jiggs. Yes, Marth Sheik and Jiggs exist too, Melee isn't Fox/falco ahoy like some of you folk seem to believe. Moreover, I think the idea that Melee players who want their character, in this case Fox/Falco, shouldn't be met with so much disapproval. We're trying so hard to make melee high tiers play like their melee counterparts with added bonuses, so why is it so bad for these two to be roughly the same, even though they were already nerfed to an appreciable extent?

The people who love this game will play it, and that's plenty. The objective should not be to make Melee+, it should be to make Super Smash Bros. PM.

This means nothing. So much of this game is made from elements borrowed from Melee. The original goal was a recreation of a melee environment and melee veterans, notably Falco. What you are playing and loving is a result of that goal, it's a result of bcuz muhlay.

Movesets have been designed and tweaked to combo fastfallers. Comboing fastfallers is so necessary in this meta that non-combo movesets are unviable. Look at the 3 most universally agreed "worst" characters: Ganondorf, Ice Climbers, and Jigglypuff. Ganon has so few combos and little neutral game. Ice Climbers can no longer do some of the insane chaingrab stuff, reducing their comboability. Jigglypuff can combo spacies into rest but not much else, and other characters can escape these combos. All 3 of these characters have few combos, which wouldn't be a problem if everyone else's weren't so awesome! And they have to be that way because spacies are so broken that they have to be full->deathable just to make the MU even.

Roy doesn't combo fastfallers. CFalcon doesn't combo fastfallers. Hell Ganon didn't combo any better in Melee and was actually worse, and he was still in high mid tier. Comboing into rest is not Jiggs' BnB. It's a thing, but it has very little to do with her ability in Melee which was to capitalize on the difference between others' recoveries and hers to push others far from the stage. Her high aerial mobility helped a lot in that. But recovering in PM is much easier than Melee, so she loses that. Spacies have even matchups with Samus and Sheik, but neither of them 0-death Fox or Falco. Have you played Melee?

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Roy doesn't combo fastfallers

I know this is sort of irrelevant to your point, but, the hell?

Yeah though it's a reasonable point that "likes Melee Fox" doesn't necessarily mean becoming void of a stake in PM's future.

 

[shairn]

I know this is sort of irrelevant to your point, but, the hell?

Yeah though it's a reasonable point that "likes Melee Fox" doesn't necessarily mean becoming void of a stake in PM's future.

Yeah I wanted to edit my post but I figured I'd wait for someone to point it out. What I mean is that he doesn't combo fastfallers any more than he combos other characters. I'd say he's better at comboing floaties.

 

[Subtle One]

every single horrible top tier in every version, from ivy to sonic, had their brokenness caused almost entirely from having tools against spacies

this is because when your options outbeat a space animal's, they will outbeat everyone else in the damn game, because fox doesn't have average tools, he has amazing, sometimes completely flawless tools. for christ sake, he has a projectile that covers an entire horizontal area and can be spammed without lag by shorthopping them. he has all the mobility in the world, yet he can just use it to keep away, forcing everyone else to approach for him by slowly pushing up damage with, again, a projectile that covers everything horizontally within a half-second

so then you get characters who can beat out lasers, right? maybe they're mobile enough to get around it like MK or sonic, maybe they just go right through them head-on like bowser's armor or mewtwo's teleport. except, whoops, now you made those characters effectively immune to EVERY OTHER PROJECTILE IN THE GAME, because if they can deal with lasers, a slow fireball or leaf blade don't mean a damn thing to them, since lasers are twice the effectiveness mario's neutralb ever could be, ending lag be damned

the unwillingness to actually fix these characters, instead just trying to build up balance around their instability, is exactly the cause of the toxicity of some characters people despise so much

Good thread. Glad I returned to read this. Hope the game is as good as this post when I get back again. When's 3.5?