Should Melee's Top Tiers Stay Untouchable Through this Critical Turning Point in Project M's Life?

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What is a Spacies weakness in Melee that someone else doesn't share it have worse?

What strength do they have that they aren't tied or close to the best with someone else?

Jack of all trades but masters of a lot. They aren't OP but bring able to 0-death them is not satisfying either for the receiver.

Trades off should be more kit based.

 

[TreK]

Damn Teneban, you forgot to mention RAR/Dash Turn Jump which is an amazing tool for Fox and Falco both.

Oops :V

 

[kaizo13]

nerfing spacies any further would surely be unappealing to a lot of players. it would take away from the glass cannon aspect we know them for.

i think it would be best to work on bringing back the technicality that melee requires to play spacies at a high level

The Melee meta-game over the years has proven that it takes a great deal of tech skill, consistency and the right mindset to even make it far with fox in a big tournament. i truly believe that this alone contributed a whole lot to the longevity of this game. Everyone wants to improve, everyone wants to get better and see themselves grow as players...so in turn they pour hours and hours into the game.

i would love to see this aspect of the game reincarnated in this new iteration of Smash.

 

[GP&B]

What do you mean by that? The only things I can think of off the top of my head are 1 frame more lenient short hop window and late input angled smashes, which to be honest are both improvements over Melee. Otherwise, I don't get what makes spacies any easier to play here.

 

[victinivcreate1]

What do you mean by that? The only things I can think of off the top of my head are 1 frame more lenient short hop window and late input angled smashes, which to be honest are both improvements over Melee. Otherwise, I don't get what makes spacies any easier to play here.

The leniency like you mentioned
The other thing that you said
The fact that dash dancing are technically harder to do in Melee than they are in PM (in pm you don't have to move the stick as far or something like that)

There's one more thing that I'm forgetting. Oh well.

 

[GP&B]

I dunno, none of those seem like worthwhile things to emulate Melee on. Melee already has a very demanding technical curve to it. PM is lenient on a few things that shouldn't be that difficult to do in the first place.

 

[kaizo13]

@ GP&B
in PM it is much easier to follow up a shine than it is in Melee. it might just be the 1 frame delay, but that 1 frame really makes a difference. it almost makes PM feel like it has buffer. waveshinning in Melee requires you to know a certain timing, as you can not act immediately out of hitlag, meaning that if you jump too early that input would drop and that is what we usually see when we hear "he got stuck in shine". In PM that execution speedbump is not there and it makes waveshining much easier, and that can't be good for something that leads into up-smash. i'm able to reverse waveshine consistently in PM, something that i know for a fact i can't do in Melee....consistently at least

 

[GP&B]

I really don't see how that affects anything but the wavedash itself in waveshining. 1 frame momentum delay has nothing to do with hitlag either since you still need to wait the same number of frames to jump out. I don't know every facet to the whole thing, but the most I could see this alleviating is getting more perfect wavedashes and I can't say that for a fact.
@DrinkingFood would know a lot more on the subject, but I don't expect much different of a response.

 

[JANKX]

One of the first things I noticed about Fox in PM is that he didn't seem as strong as he used to be. I think his nerfs stem from that fact that he is perceived to be too powerful, and also the fact that nobody knew how to play with all these new characters and matchups. Think about when PM 3.0 was just about to be released, and people knew how to play top tier Melee veterans proficiently, but not any of the Brawl PM redesigns. Now that we have more data on the entire cast, it's possible for the PMDT to make changes that unify the overall design and balance of characters.

As far as significantly changing Melee's top tier for the sake of the overall game, I called upon the infinite wisdom of the Ken:

That being said, there are already changes to the characters and game engine from Melee to PM. At this point, I already accept PM as its own thing, and if they were to alter the veterans even further I wouldn't mind so much as long as it made sense in terms of the whole. If they would continue to further deviate from Melee, more people would accept it as a new game and not try to play old characters the same way they've always been.

 

[kaizo13]

I really don't see how that affects anything but the wavedash itself in waveshining. 1 frame momentum delay has nothing to do with hitlag either since you still need to wait the same number of frames to jump out. I don't know every facet to the whole thing, but the most I could see this alleviating is getting more perfect wavedashes and I can't say that for a fact.
@DrinkingFood would know a lot more on the subject, but I don't expect much different of a response.

wavedash timing in Melee and PM are exactly the same, that's not what i'm talking about. i'm talking about the window where you can jump after shine hitlag.

like i said, i don't know the exact reason for it, but if you play fox Melee and PM, it's real easy to distinguish what i'm talking about. I recall Mango bringing it up also after playing PM

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Fox's usmash is way too strong, fast, and easy to combo into imo. Other than that, I think that most top tier melee characters are fine. Oh, besides Marth, he's bad.

I agree, and there are plenty of other characters with way too strong and fast moves like; Diddy's Fsmash, Mario's fsmash & Dsmash etc. Also some moves that are way too spam-able like Mario's Fireballs/pills, Ness' PK Fire. All these things should be brought into attention for balancing sake. And on the flip side; heavy characters with slower less useful smash attacks are weaker and harder to use like; ALL of Ganon's smash attacks, Dedede smash attacks etc. If you compare how easy it is to KO a foe using Fox or Sheik smash attacks vs Dedede or Ganon you will see that the faster characters are 1- arent that much weaker, and 2- are easier to KO with. The heavy characters don't feel strong when Mario's fsmash can KO Ganon at 85% while Ganon maybe KO's Mario at 80%. These are specific examples I know, but they convey the point quite well. For heavy characters to truly be viable they need to be actually stronger in all areas than the faster characters. Otherwise whats the point of them being so slow and heavy?

 

[TimeSmash]

On the topic of Melee characters, Peach feels downright perfect except that I want a different sound for DSmash haha. But she's a perfect representative of what Melee to PM transitions should be like, a familiar Melee feel but with some new variants or flair to show.

On the other hand, Zelda is almost nothing like her Melee counterpart save for a few things here and there. But she is an incredible blast to play as with her Din's Fire shenanigans and the fact that her multihit moves actually work!! While there's been complaints about her, she could use some tweaking but I think she's great in this game. I feel like 3.5 won't be that kind to her, but at the same time I'm interested to see what she could turn out to be

On the topic of spammable moves, Din's Fire is spammable but easy enough to deal with. I suppose it could be easier to nullify, but if everyone else has unlimited prohectiles Zelda should be no different. PK Fire is just gross. It's way too weird to SDI out of. Peach's turnips are great, but I could use a little more Melee Physics in terms of them bouncing off each other.

This game is supposed to be about balance, and so I would hope to god that the PMDT isn't deciding who should be where on a tier list. What I'd like to see after 3.5 is a period where we give the characters a chance to develop and grow, and actually come up with a consistent tier list, and base future changes off that. I love that we're getting so much new stuff in this next update, but it'd be good to give the meta more time to develop as well

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I agree, and there are plenty of other characters with way too strong and fast moves like; Diddy's Fsmash, Mario's fsmash & Dsmash etc. Also some moves that are way too spam-able like Mario's Fireballs/pills, Ness' PK Fire. All these things should be brought into attention for balancing sake. And on the flip side; heavy characters with slower less useful smash attacks are weaker and harder to use like; ALL of Ganon's smash attacks, Dedede smash attacks etc. If you compare how easy it is to KO a foe using Fox or Sheik smash attacks vs Dedede or Ganon you will see that the faster characters are 1- arent that much weaker, and 2- are easier to KO with. The heavy characters don't feel strong when Mario's fsmash can KO Ganon at 85% while Ganon maybe KO's Mario at 80%. These are specific examples I know, but they convey the point quite well. For heavy characters to truly be viable they need to be actually stronger in all areas than the faster characters. Otherwise whats the point of them being so slow and heavy?

This is the direction Smash 4 more or less went looking at the changes to kill power and who can still kill sub100.

Charizard, Ganon, Bowser, they feel like they kill early and do so far better than the rest of the cast.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

You are right, I didnt even think about that. But I think it's also do to the blasts zones being do far away and recoveries being "too good" for most of the cast. With PM 3.5 supposed recovery nerf for the cast and the blast zones not being miles away (except certain stages) I think having the heavys be the ones that excel at KO power won't be too bad. Fast characters will have speed and combo potential and heavys be more "one hit KO" type of deal.

But I think it should also depand on a certain criteria on a move per move basis, like;
- how fast is the move?
- how much start up/end lag it's got?
- how long does the hit box stays out for?
- how much range does it have?
- is it a disjoint? (Swords, fake projectiles etc.)

So if a fast character has a slow up smash with short range, that should be a strong move. Even if the character is fast.

 

[4tlas]

Sadly, I think its too late to go for a redesign. The next major release would likely be 4.0, and I thought the plan was to have that be a vaguely definitive version of the mod? 3.5 is mostly done (no time for redesigns) and redesigns would still need balance tweaks so we'd have to wait for 4.3 or so to have a final version.

In an optimal world, I think Fox, Falco, Jiggs, and Sheik should have some of their moves redesigned. Their stats and playstyles can be vaguely similar, but some things should be changed from a design standpoint. A few moves are nearly 100% useless (Fox/Falco fair, Sheik sideB/fthrow, Jiggs ftilt/dtilt and rollout/sing) and some are so amazing the entire game gets warped around them (Fox upsmash and upair, both shines, Falco dair, Jiggs bair and rest). Why have movesets like this if we can change them?

It's not about nerfing them. I just think it's stupid to have such polarizing movesets. (Not that some of the brawl characters dont have that, like Ivy bair and Ness sideB for example) I just hope the PMDT is willing and able to look at everything and adjust appropriately like they say they want to.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I'm still baffled by the fact that people STILL want spacies nerfed. They already are nerfed lol. And your character is buffed. Plz stop. For real. It's going to sound like hyperbole, but learn the matchup. The only two spacies in Melee who are absurdly dominant are Mango and PPMD and thats because they're pretty much better than everyone else. Mango has shown that he's good with multiple characters, and PP has shown that he can play Marth very well.

There are literally two Foxes in PM. Mew2King and ZeRo. There is one Falco and that's DEHF. Mew2King pretty much exclusively uses Mewtwo in tournament, ZeRo uses Pit. DEHF is the only "true" PM spacie main. Why is that? How come we don't see a slew of Foxes in PM like we do in Melee? Because 1. Your favorite character has been buffed in VARIOUS ways so they can play neutral, combo, KO, and edgeguard them more easily, 2. Spacies have been nerfed.

I say we fix the PM polarizers () and somehow buff up the bottom 4 () before we try and enrage the Melee community.

 

[trash?]

PAL fox, falco's fine b/c the metagame plays a lot more hardball with him, I genuinely don't know what you could do with jigglypuff that wouldn't gut their uniqueness, and maybe someone should actually point out what desynchs ICs have instead of just hoping people figure it out themselves then get surprised when nobody ends up playing them

also, sheik's gonna go back to being a nuisance in 3.5 now that they can continue being sheik off-stage against everyone

 

[Fortress]

also, sheik's gonna go back to being a nuisance in 3.5 now that they can continue being sheik off-stage against everyone

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaay. Though, I'm not thrilled that the same can go the other way once again...

It's pretty early in the morning, and I'm pretty tired, but there are only a few characters I think need changing in the game currently. All in all, I'm liking the discussion of changing Project M such that it feels like its own game. The PMDT can do whatever they want with this game, and it was true when OP said that the game has the potential to suffer just to appeal to the die-hard, and not the people who actually play it. Give Falco a ranged Brawl shine with Melee trajectory? Because why not (but really no)? Give Ganondorf a not-useless neutral B? Make Lucas even more perfect? These are all awful examples, but, you get it. The PMDT has the power to do whatever it is they want to do for their playerbase, which is how it should be. The game and its players shouldn't have to be at a loss just because some other game decides how and why characters and physics should act the way they do.

 

[Leafeon]

I'm still baffled by the fact that people STILL want spacies nerfed. They already are nerfed lol. And your character is buffed. Plz stop. For real. It's going to sound like hyperbole, but learn the matchup. The only two spacies in Melee who are absurdly dominant are Mango and PPMD and thats because they're pretty much better than everyone else. Mango has shown that he's good with multiple characters, and PP has shown that he can play Marth very well.

There are literally two Foxes in PM. Mew2King and ZeRo. There is one Falco and that's DEHF. Mew2King pretty much exclusively uses Mewtwo in tournament, ZeRo uses Pit. DEHF is the only "true" PM spacie main. Why is that? How come we don't see a slew of Foxes in PM like we do in Melee? Because 1. Your favorite character has been buffed in VARIOUS ways so they can play neutral, combo, KO, and edgeguard them more easily, 2. Spacies have been nerfed.

I say we fix the PM polarizers () and somehow buff up the bottom 4 () before we try and enrage the Melee community.

I think it's less about seeing space animals nerfed, and more about whether or not we'll see PMDT change them if we see an imbalance in the game in general. Like what Fortress said in the previous post, what the characters did and felt like in melee doesn't mean anything to the balance of P:M, so if they need to be changed, they should be changed. That's all. I don't think they really need to be atm, but we'll see after 3.5 I guess.

 

[Roxas215]

Love how you throw sheik in there. Like sheik is ANYWHERE near the best in this game.................


But i don't ask for any buffs or anything cause i believe Sheik will be great in 3.5. Sheik sucks now cause sheik cant be sheik with all the stupid ass recoveries. Across the board recovery nerf means sheik is sheik again!

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'm still baffled by the fact that people STILL want spacies nerfed.
There are literally two Foxes in PM. Mew2King and ZeRo.

So easily provably, obviously false it's absurd. I don't know who you think you're fooling.

Mew2King pretty much exclusively uses Mewtwo in tournament, ZeRo uses Pit

Probably because those are the best 2 characters in the game (though Lucas could be better than Pit). They both often switch to Fox anyway.

DEHF is the only "true" PM spacie main. Why is that?

In what fashion? What do you mean?

How come we don't see a slew of Foxes in PM like we do in Melee?

We DO.

I say we fix the PM polarizers

Then we damn well better fix Fox.

 

[Pharo]

I'd rather fight a spacie over pit or lucas anyday. Spacies mid-high tier at best in this game. There is far less risky characters that have better edge guard options, better recovery, and I'd say just as good combo potential without the draw backs spacies have. DO NOT TOUCH SPACIES. geez I'd like to see why some of you think they need nerfed, I'd love to see evidence of them being a dominant character choice.

 

[JANKX]

There's no doubt that the tiers will shuffle around in 3.5 since the most recent blogpost indicates that the entire cast will be modified in varying degrees. This in itself is pretty exciting, because all our perceptions of character viability will reset as we explore the new iterations. I really like how they titled the blogpost "Trimming the Fat," because as it stands now, it seems like the top tier possesses too many options, whereas the ideal design would be for each character to have unique strengths and weaknesses. If the PMDT is successful with their redesigns, then I hope future releases will only have to incur incremental changes for balancing purposes, i.e. fixing the the outliers at the top and bottom ends. All this speculation just makes me really excited for PM 3.5: Nerf Edition.

 

[4tlas]

This thread is about changing them for design purposes, I don't understand where anyone is coming from if they post "Don't nerf!" because that has nothing to do with this.

This isn't about the spacies dominating the meta (though a critical design choice was to give most/all characters anti-spacie moves so it sounds like they do dominate the meta by warping viability of non-combo-centric movesets), this is about spacies being dumb character designs by themselves. Not against other characters. Just by themselves.

If possible, get rid of the 100% useless moves and change the polarizingly good ones. Not as a nerf, but just a fundamental change that makes the player use the options of the whole moveset as opposed to the great versatility of a few moves.

Edit: I also can't tell if people are responding to me personally or not and I don't want to be narcissistic so I'm going to assume not and let things go unless someone directly quotes me or says my name lol sorry

 

[JANKX]

@ 4tlas I agree that substituting some moves would be pretty awesome, especially with the spacies. It could be done in a way that really separates the clones from each other in a meaningful way. My favorite example of effective clone design are between Ness and Lucas. They share enough similar moves which makes it obvious they are of the same base archetype, but the overall scope of their differences makes is feel like one character is Capcom and the other is SNK. And move substitution doesn't seem like a particularly difficult thing for developers to achieve. It's basically changing stuff like animation/hitbox/trajectory/damage/knockback/etc, right?

I would think that the only difficult thing with redesigning even a little tiny thing is the public's resistance to change. A lot of people moved on to PM because they wanted to play Melee. But you know what, me and my crew have been playing PM exclusively for the past year. Just a few days ago, we popped in Melee after our typical PM session, and the reaction was interesting. We felt that although Melee is awesome and always will be, the changes that PM made to existing characters were refreshing, and having characters like Fox in PM that try to be as close to Melee as possible is somewhat disorienting when switching between the two games because they are not exact replicas. By mixing things up, PM can have a stronger identity of it's own, and that is something I think the community ought to embrace.

Edit: I would say that to further the discussion, listing moves that could be potentially changed and what you would substitute them with seems highly compelling.

 

[Pharo]

@ JANKX Response to 2nd paragraph;
You make good points, and I myself got into competitive smash thanks to Project M (quit marvel 3 when I found out about it). But a lot of people have been playing melee for years and years, and have wanted a worthy sequel to it. If they were to change how spacies or really how any top tier melee character's attributes, it would hurt the PM community more than it would help. Even if it were for balance, or playability. Sure you can take away a broken thing(shine invincibility) that shouldn't exist, or give them another option ontop of their original design. But I wouldn't tamper with characters people enjoy and love playing for several years.

That would be like loving ryu in street fighter, than in the next street fighter that comes out they remove his hadouken because it was spammable, or took away his shiroyken because of the invinceble start up(This is just for example and not to be taken too literal). That would make a lot of people upset. I said it before and I'll say it again, Melee's top tier characters need to be preserved I think for what people know, love, and hate. I like the fact melee players are able to play PM with a character they are familiar with(for the most part) and feel somewhat comfortable with the transition. Giving PM a stronger "identity" can also mean a split in community.

 

[TTTTTsd]

As far as this is concerned, I'm not sure. Falco's fine as is IMO, although if everyone's recovery that was too good before is being cut down he might inadvertently get better, but I still think he's fine right now. A lot of the stuff made to buff the cast worked against Falco at least, as he's definitely not top tier anymore, but still feels really good to play.

Fox.....I don't wanna speak too much about him, so I won't. I will say that if this 3.5 update does bring some form of universal balance that includes changing things people once thought would be static, I'm all for it if it adds interesting options and doesn't make it bad.

 

[GP&B]

I disagree entirely (two posts up). Leaving Fox where he is while the entire top tier is being taking down a notch will only hurt the game in the long run. It should come off as incredibly jarring that in a project whose focus is a well designed cast that Fox gets off scotch free. I think the appeal to the Melee crowd through Fox is severely overstated; PM does enough on its own having all of Melee's movement options.

 

[Rhubarbo]

So far, I'm glad to see folks making good points for both sides in this discussion.

A stray thought occurred to me: Can pac/pcs/motion files be tied to an alternate costume? If this wizardry is possible, Melee Fox could live on as a bonus in his classic alt, and new Fox can shine on without obstruction.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

I don't want to see Fox stay the same because his lasers are horrible, making the run and gun game not effective. I really want to see them make a return, but if his lasers were to return then his upsmash should be nerfed. Really my only problems with fox in this version are that his upsmash and lasers. upsmash 2 good, lasers 2 bad.

 

[4tlas]

I would think that the only difficult thing with redesigning even a little tiny thing is the public's resistance to change. A lot of people moved on to PM because they wanted to play Melee. But you know what, me and my crew have been playing PM exclusively for the past year. Just a few days ago, we popped in Melee after our typical PM session, and the reaction was interesting. We felt that although Melee is awesome and always will be, the changes that PM made to existing characters were refreshing, and having characters like Fox in PM that try to be as close to Melee as possible is somewhat disorienting when switching between the two games because they are not exact replicas. By mixing things up, PM can have a stronger identity of it's own, and that is something I think the community ought to embrace.

A couple of points about this I'd like to elaborate on:

1) Designing is part inspiration, part toil. Both are difficult in different ways, and they both take time. I think it would be impossible to redesign at this stage because it would take a lot of playtesting, tweaking, and flat-out redoing to get something releasable from the toil perspective, and that doesn't even guarantee they will find any good ideas to replace with!

2) I agree that PM is and should be its own game. If people want to play Melee top tiers as such, they have a game they can do that in! I understand the mod came about originally because the idea of porting in Melee Falco and playing him against the Brawl cast was intriguing, but if people want that they can mod their own copy (or stick to 3.02). PM should continue with its design goal of having a game that sticks to the core principles of Melee (fast-paced, dynamic combat that uses control over character state through movement options and noticeable hitstun to create thoughtful, engaging gameplay). These goals also require that players be rewarded for using the character's full potential creatively and intelligently. Currently, characters with dead moves are missing out on (pardon this choice of words) potential potential. Fox/Falco fair could be a different move, one that enriches the character. And characters with overly polarizing moves warp the gameplay for both players. Fox Upsmash, for example, causes stage counterpicks and bans all by itself, far too frequently. A fast move on a fast character (like Fox shine) is not situational upon game state, and that is a problem. When Ivy is landing, she can't bair. When Marth is in the air, his reach isn't as long. When Jiggs is offstage, she will probably not rest. But Fox can shine anytime, and can quickly get in range to use it (and punish off it) no matter what state he is in initially. Does this promote interesting decision points? Opportunity cost? It stalls, it reflects, it semi-spikes, it has fixed knockback for easy combos, it starts and ends quickly, it's usable all the time, and all of this on a fast character. Fox isn't too good, but shine is, and he should have that power moved elsewhere to promote interesting decisions.

 

[victinivcreate1]

So easily provably, obviously false it's absurd. I don't know who you think you're fooling.


Probably because those are the best 2 characters in the game (though Lucas could be better than Pit). They both often switch to Fox anyway.

In what fashion? What do you mean?


We DO.


Then we damn well better fix Fox.

Should have rephrased my question.

How many GOOD foxes do you see? Not scrubby randoms.
When was Fox as polarizing as the PM gods?
Dehf is the only true spacie main because in tournament he only uses spacies

 

[InfinityCollision]

This isn't about the spacies dominating the meta (though a critical design choice was to give most/all characters anti-spacie moves so it sounds like they do dominate the meta by warping viability of non-combo-centric movesets), this is about spacies being dumb character designs by themselves. Not against other characters. Just by themselves.

Quoting because it deserves a second read.

To a certain extent, the answer depends on what exactly the PMDT intends to do in terms of balance and design. I've made a couple posts about giving Marth his Brawl DB/usmash/counter in 3.5, posts that were mostly but not completely joking because in the current meta things like that would bump him up ever-so-slightly, give him a more "complete" kit (ie every move having a function, not how complete his options are, which are already pretty strong), but keep him flying just under the "jank" radar. In actuality I'd probably just make DB a DI trap and maybe give him the usmash before calling it a day, but I'm digressing from the point here.

Said point being that while these changes would probably fly in 3.02, the PMDT obviously has big plans for improving both the balance and the design quality of characters across the board in 3.5 and these considerations need to be taken hand-in-hand, but also independently of the current meta. The ideal is a game that's both balanced and devoid of toxic gameplay elements, and the quality of a character's toolkit needs to be evaluated under both metrics without the preconceptions we've developed from playing the current iteration of the game or any other Smash titles. Any changes to a Melee top tier character's kit has to be considered based on their intentions regarding these characteristics.

If I had to make a guess (though I'm far from the only one that's said this), I'd say the intention is to design the game in a way that roughly parallels Melee Marth/Peach/Falcon. Not necessarily in power level (though pretty close to that too, perhaps a tad higher in overall capabilities thanks to Brawl tech and PM-specific stuff like AGTs), but in the fact that they have a mixture of matchups that are still reasonably close going each way (ie you want lots of 50/50s and 60/40s, but few 70/30s and little or nothing worse) and kits that are rewarding with a minimum of red flags in design. Movesets old and new have to be evaluated with a critical eye. Since the discussion seems to have turned to spacies - is usmash/shine/whatever not just balanced, but balanced AND good design? If small changes can improve both of those criteria in meaningful ways, I'd call that a win for PM as a whole.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Should have rephrased my question.

How many GOOD foxes do you see? Not scrubby randoms.

How many GOOD (x character) do you see? Asinine question.

When was Fox as polarizing as the PM gods?

You don't have to be as polarizing as M2 or Ivysaur to be highly polarizing.

Dehf is the only true spacie main because in tournament he only uses spacies

You're right. I'm sure literally nobody else in the world sticks purely to spacies in PM.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

The only one that needs a nerd is , Puff and IC's the rest is fine they can do work on other characters and they could be pooped on by others.

 

[TimeSmash]

The only one that needs a nerf is , Puff and IC's the rest is fine they can do work on other characters and they could be pooped on by others.

Jigglypuff definitely doesn't need a nerf. Just because Rest is powerful, doesn't mean the rest of her moveset is. Even with recoveries being nerfed across the board, Jiggs in her current state will probably still struggle competitively.

 

[Kidneyjoe]

To all the people saying to just give Fox his PAL up smash: If we operate under the assumption that Fox is either too strong or is not properly designed to conform with PM's goals, is giving him PAL up smash really going to solve the problem? Fox is still the best character in PAL Melee, and he still plays pretty much the same way. If they're going to go through with changing Fox then they really need to do it in a meaningful way, and not just lower some numbers. As he stands right now, he essentially has no areas of weakness (yes he gets combo'd hard but so does every heavy or fast faller) and just making his amazing kill move slightly less amazing likely won't be enough to offset how strong he is in all aspects of play. They're going to have to give him and the other top tiers some appreciable weaknesses, like Falco's weak recovery, in order for the rest of the cast to be able to stand on equal footing with them.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Fox gets **** on by almost every single character in project M, really the only thing I think is overbearing about him is his upsmash. Fox just gets boned so hard in this game.

 

[leekslap]

Are people seriously discussing nerfing spacies more than they already have? At this point, spacies( Fox and Falco only *cough*Lucas*cough* ) are amongst the most balanced characters in the game! They have both defined amazing strengths and defined terrible weaknesses. Aside from that, Sheik needs her old down throw, Captain Falcon needs some Smash 64 elements blended in, Ganondorf needs a better grab game ( more grab range and his Brawl forward and back throw maybe ), I don't even know where to begin with Ice Climbers, Luigi needs to be able to waveland out of fireballs like Wolf, and Puff is simply very hard to buff but at least the recovery nerfs wil help her out.

 

[Rᴏb]

I can't wait to taste your tears.