Should King Dedede's infinite chaingrab be banned?

[da K.I.D.]

@beam swordsman, there have been like 5+ D3 players including myself that have come out in favor of the ban

 

[beamswordsman]

@beam swordsman, there have been like 5+ D3 players including myself that have come out in favor of the ban

DDD is my secondary (although I rarely grab).

 

[Kinzer]

The more I look at the poll, the closer it gets to anti-ban... you people down there (I'm sorry to say, and I know everyone is entitled to your own opinion...) probably have something against Mario/Luigi/DK/Bowser...

I hope to dear god it gets banned, anything to get the characters more represenation, because anything is better than giving MK more points.

 

[da K.I.D.]

da K.I.D.: No, man, I don't think that's what he's trying to say. You KNOW what he's trying to say. Within game settings, we can alter certain aspects of Brawl, but those aspects, like stages or items, are all we really have access to. If you want to argue an issue of open-mindedness, argue about handicaps or damage ratios, something else we can control. What you're saying, though, is irrelevant.

lol and you KNOW that playing gay is a valid reason to bann something, thats why hyrule is banned...

banning the stage was a right move to make because they were detrimental to competitive play.
DDD's infinite is not.
SUBJECTION!!!
The reasoning for those stage bans was because it harmed competitive play as a whole.
If Eldin's bridge was made available, then the game would overcentralize around 1 character/tactic and the game would suffer.
Thats a GD lie!
DDD's infinite cannot be banned simply because unlike those stages, it does not have the capability of harming the competitive nature of this game as a whole.
It sucks to be those 5 characters (they can break out) but in general, thats part of what happens in competitive games.

This is not true, eldin doesnt MAKE people play D3 the same way playing DK doesnt MAKE you play D3. just like the infinite, you can counterpick.

GTFO with that subjective lying bullcrap, all you have to defend the banning of eldin is pure speculation and theory

 

[XxBlackxX]

@beam swordsman, there have been like 5+ D3 players including myself that have come out in favor of the ban

so? OPINIONS don't matter...remember?

anyways, ive seen a couple D3 players against the ban. your point?

The main disconnect here is that your side thinks the infinite must be universal to be ban-worthy, and my side does not.

Here's the lowdown- the infinite DOES over-centralize the anti-metagame for the 5 characters that can be infinited. All you need to know to defeat them is to counterpick with DDD and use the infinite. That is called playing gay..... REALLY, REALLY gay. In doing so, the player with FAR less skill can easily dominate. If that doesn't hurt competitiveness, I don't know what does.

playing "gay" is the scrub's way of saying playing to win. that aside, it doesn't hurt OVERALL competitiveness of the WHOLE GAME. like i said, in almost all games, there are gonna be ****ty matchups and "unplayable" characters. deal with it, because it's not ban-worthy if it doesn't break the game as a whole.
what does? okay, an example would be IDC. it IS universal and over-centralizes on MK and the tactic. all matches would become "tag and IDC rest of the match or lose", that's why it was banned, not because "it was gay", for your info.
anyways, a "player with more skill" would never pick these characters against D3. simple as that. if a "skilled player" willingly does so, he's gotta accept the results.

The more I look at the poll, the closer it gets to anti-ban... you people down there (I'm sorry to say, and I know everyone is entitled to your own opinion...) probably have something against Mario/Luigi/DK/Bowser...

I hope to dear god it gets banned, anything to get the characters more represenation, because anything is better than giving MK more points.

but that's never gonna happen, characters have ****ty matchups and some of them become"unplayable", deal with it.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Here's the lowdown- the infinite DOES over-centralize the anti-metagame for the 5 characters that can be infinited. All you need to know to defeat them is to counterpick with DDD and use the infinite. That is called playing gay..... REALLY, REALLY gay. In doing so, the player with FAR less skill can easily dominate. If that doesn't hurt competitiveness, I don't know what does.

Let alone that your statement about over centraliing si rather confusing. Explain on that point.
Being gay doesn't factor into what is ban worthy or not.

There are several matchups where the opponent can have less skill and win. The only time you and your opponent need to have more skill than the other to win is in 50:50 matchups.
Every other matchup that goes 60:40, 70:30, 80:20 all allow the lesser skilled opponent to win because they have a greater advantage in the matchup.
Ban everything that gives a lesser skilled opponent to beat a greater skilled opponent?
I propose we all play dittos since they are the only matches GUARANTEED to ensure the greater skilled player will win.

Now it truly is Fox, Final Destination only, no items.

@beam swordsman, there have been like 5+ D3 players including myself that have come out in favor of the ban

Doesn't matter how many people support you if the argument is still wrong.
we do not go based on who supports what side we go on WHAT they have SAID.
Even if all the DDD's, Marios,Luigi,Samus, DK and Bowser players all rose up and said "BAN IT!" it wouldn't be banned unless their was justification.


Edit: Wait a second, you said its all subjective right? Everything that anyone has said is meaningless. We should all stop posting people.

@kinzer: *shakes head* Mk will still win dude. He's just that much better. Losing 1 nasty matchup won't change the rest of the metagame.

 

[Jack Kieser]

@da K.I.D.: Uhh... playing 'gay' is NOT why Hyrule is banned, and that statement shows why no one is really listening to your side. Hyrule is banned because of STALLING, which breaks the game outright. If Hyrule was allowed, Sonic would be GOD tier.

 

[Kinzer]

but that's never gonna happen, characters have ****ty matchups and some of them become"unplayable", deal with it.

Because you don't give a d***, do you, I bet if Falco (I'll assume he is your main) had a near unwinnable matchup, you would be b****ing too... no, forget that, you wouldn't be, you'd just be an ******* and switch mains, and you probably wouldn't care less what would happen to his metagame after it.

Your logic sickens me, something needs to be done about this stupid infinite, because I could just main D3, get good with him, and I have 4 less matchups to worry about, and then for anybody who I do poorly with, just switch to MK.

No that's stupid, people should have to work to get good, not just further narrow an already half-***** game.

But I guess in this country, it's all about money, screw the community, I want to get richer.

No sportsmanship rules.

 

[M15t3R E]

so? OPINIONS don't matter...remember?

anyways, ive seen a couple D3 players against the ban. your point?

Fair enough. Then yours does not matter either.

playing "gay" is the scrub's way of saying playing to win. that aside, it doesn't hurt OVERALL competitiveness of the WHOLE GAME. like i said, in almost all games, there are gonna be ****ty matchups and "unplayable" characters. deal with it, because it's not ban-worthy if it doesn't break the game as a whole.
what does? okay, an example would be IDC. it IS universal and over-centralizes on MK and the tactic. all matches would become "tag and IDC rest of the match or lose", that's why it was banned, not because "it was gay", for your info.
anyways, a "player with more skill" would never pick these characters against D3. simple as that. if a "skilled player" willingly does so, he's gotta accept the results.

I'm wondering if you've realized that DDD's infinite can easily be used as a stalling technique for an easy 1.5 minutes wasted on EACH STOCK.
If you feel MK's IDC should be banned because of what it can do, why don't you feel DDD's infinite should be banned? DDD's infinite can produce the SAME RESULTS as MK's IDC, but of course in a limited number of match-ups.

Also, it's not about choosing DK or somebody against D3. I'm saying a scrubby player, after losing to the character that can be infinited, can counterpick with DDD and win every time.

 

[ShadowLink84]

@da K.I.D.: Uhh... playing 'gay' is NOT why Hyrule is banned, and that statement shows why no one is really listening to your side. Hyrule is banned because of STALLING, which breaks the game outright. If Hyrule was allowed, Sonic would be GOD tier.

oh god I could imagine it noww.
Sonic: *Jabs MK*
Sonic: *runs away*
MetaKnight: What? GET BACK HERE! *chases*
Sonic: *Moves from one end of the stage to the other* YOU'RE TOO SLOOOOW!
Metaknight: DIE! *tries chasing with glide*
Sonic: *Drops off the stage then sideb"s to another part of the stage*
Metaknight: **** YOU!
7 minutes later

Announcer: GAME!
Metanight: SAKURAIIIIII!

 

[M15t3R E]

Let alone that your statement about over centraliing si rather confusing. Explain on that point.
Being gay doesn't factor into what is ban worthy or not.

There are several matchups where the opponent can have less skill and win. The only time you and your opponent need to have more skill than the other to win is in 50:50 matchups.
Every other matchup that goes 60:40, 70:30, 80:20 all allow the lesser skilled opponent to win because they have a greater advantage in the matchup.
Ban everything that gives a lesser skilled opponent to beat a greater skilled opponent?
I propose we all play dittos since they are the only matches GUARANTEED to ensure the greater skilled player will win.

Why do you insist on comparing 70:30 match-ups to 95:5 match-ups that DDD's infinite creates?
YOU CANNOT WIN against a DDD that knows about the infinite. YOU CAN WIN in a very disadvantaged match-up in which the odds are around 40% higher for your opponent.

In one of these match-ups, skill is irrelevant. In the other, skill can still pull you through for the win.

 

[beamswordsman]

Fair enough. Then yours does not matter either.



I'm wondering if you've realized that DDD's infinite can easily be used as a stalling technique for an easy 1.5 minutes wasted on EACH STOCK.
If you feel MK's IDC should be banned because of what it can do, why don't you feel DDD's infinite should be banned? DDD's infinite can produce the SAME RESULTS as MK's IDC, but of course in a limited number of match-ups. Nice try.

Also, it's not about choosing DK or somebody against D3. I'm saying a scrubby player, after losing to the character that can be infinited, can counterpick with DDD and win every time.
Shouldn't that other player switch up to prevent/lessen the chancce of that?

Details in you-know what.

 

[XxBlackxX]

Fair enough. Then yours does not matter either.

that was only aimed to dakid because for some reason he likes to just come in the thread and say pointless stuff about subjectivity when his posts are even more biased. ignore it.

I'm wondering if you've realized that DDD's infinite can easily be used as a stalling technique for an easy 1.5 minutes wasted on EACH STOCK.
If you feel MK's IDC should be banned because of what it can do, why don't you feel DDD's infinite should be banned? DDD's infinite can produce the SAME RESULTS as MK's IDC, but of course in a limited number of match-ups.

Also, it's not about choosing DK or somebody against D3. I'm saying a scrubby player, after losing to the character that can be infinited, can counterpick with DDD and easily win.

first, IDC was universal, infinites are not. then, IDC was FOR THE REST OF THE MATCH. the infinites cannot be continued more than 300%. (i wouldn't mind if it was lowered to say, 200% though.)

second, if a DK player wins the first match, he should KNOW that if he sticks with DK, he probably will be CP'ed with D3. that's why the CP system EXISTS, you know, so the losing player has a chance to get a better matchup....
knowing all that, the DK player will most likely change characters on the 2nd round.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I'm wondering if you've realized that DDD's infinite can easily be used as a stalling technique for an easy 1.5 minutes wasted on EACH STOCK.
If you feel MK's IDC should be banned because of what it can do, why don't you feel DDD's infinite should be banned? DDD's infinite can produce the SAME RESULTS as MK's IDC, but of course in a limited number of match-ups.

Stop beating a dead horse.
her eis the solution.

DAMAGE CAP.
problem solved get a new argument.

IDC could be used for stalling and could NOT be monitored unless a referee was there at all times.
DDD's can be monitored and a damage cap placed to ensure they do not try to stall with it.
Enough about stalling.

Also, it's not about choosing DK or somebody against D3. I'm saying a scrubby player, after losing to the character that can be infinited, can counterpick with DDD and easily win.

It doesn't work that way at all.

1.Double blind.
2.I use DK you use MK
3. I win
4.you announce stage counterpick
5. I switch to Olimar

You still lose because you're a bad player and I am much more skilled. I avoided the nasty matchup entirely

Or how about this

1.Double blind pick
2.I choose DK
3.You choose DDD
4.I get muffed
5.I cp stage
6.You switch
7.I choose DK

If you stay as DDD I CP you.
If you switch to anyone else I can use DK.
Simple as that.

Why do you insist on comparing 70:30 match-ups to 95:5 match-ups that DDD's infinite creates?

They are both hard counters and both involve a player of much lesser skill winning because they have a much greater advantage.

YOU CANNOT WIN against a DDD that knows about the infinite. YOU CAN WIN in a very disadvantaged match-up in which the odds are around 40% higher for your opponent.

you cannot legitimately win a 7:3 matchup unless you are muh more skilled opponent.
Apparently that point went over your head like a bad joke.

How about pika vs Fox? 9:1 a much lesser Pika will **** Fox every time.

In one of these match-ups, skill is irrelevant. In the other, skill can still pull you through for the win.

The same can be said for DDD vs Dk except that the requirement of skill is much greater.
Skill can still pull you through as well as mindgames.

No one will ever stay as Olimar after a match because a Peach will appear.
No one will ever stay as Sonic after a matchup because Luigi, Wario or MK will appear.
No one will ever stay as Fox because Pika will appear.

There are many scenarios that you WILL lose because you need to be that much more skilled than the opponent just as you would with DDD vs the bad .
in every single one unless you are much more skilled than the opponent you will lose.

N every single one the problem is solved by CPing.
Why do you refuse to acknowledge this point?

 

[da K.I.D.]

@da K.I.D.: Uhh... playing 'gay' is NOT why Hyrule is banned, and that statement shows why no one is really listening to your side. Hyrule is banned because of STALLING, which breaks the game outright. If Hyrule was allowed, Sonic would be GOD tier.

ROFL

shows what you know, sonic would get tore up by projectile spam...

and duh, stalling IS GAY

and stalling doesnt really REALLY break the game, it just makes it into a game that the majority really doesnt want to play. but hey! nobody cares about the majority, cause they are still wrong right?

looks like hyrule is gonna be tourney legal in that case pretty soon

 

[da K.I.D.]

oh god I could imagine it noww.
Sonic: *Jabs MK*
Sonic: *runs away*
MetaKnight: What? GET BACK HERE! *chases*
Sonic: *Moves from one end of the stage to the other* YOU'RE TOO SLOOOOW!
Metaknight: DIE! *tries chasing with glide*
Sonic: *Drops off the stage then sideb"s to another part of the stage*
Metaknight: **** YOU!
7 minutes later

Announcer: GAME!
Metanight: SAKURAIIIIII!

Rofl!!!

oh my god, thats stupid.

and how praytell does that jab happen?
the same way D3 gets that first grab on the infinitables

as a matter of fact sonic will have a harder time jabbing MK than D3 will have grabbing those five,

you just have to be skilled enough to get the first hit.

like i said, it doesnt break the game, it just turns it into a game that the majority doesnt want to play.

and like yall said, the opinions of the majority means nothing

 

[Kinzer]

No one will ever stay as Sonic after a matchup because Luigi, Wario or MK will appear.

At least I'm too fanboyish/ignorant to say that no matter who I get, I would still stay Sonic. :/ :D

He's my CP for everybody.

And before you come up with any more crap (you ast he reader, not SL himself), Sonic can still win these matchups, its 70:30 at worst.

I'm going to eat dinner.

 

[M15t3R E]

Believe me, I've been to enough Brawl tournaments to know that players like to stick to the characters they are comfortable with even if they lose to a character and know which characters hard counter the character they lost to.

You need to know how to use the character to hard counter the other character.
With DDD, you are guaranteed the win vs. 5 characters. No other match-ups are like that.


As for the damage cap- that won't work as I and others have already pointed out over a week ago. People will still abuse it because they can use it. It would only be enforceable to ban the entire infinite, not limiting it.

 

[da K.I.D.]

because like i said if you only knew the Cgs with pika andthat was all you could do, my fox would still tear you up.

not the case with D3

 

[XxBlackxX]

Believe me, I've been to enough Brawl tournaments to know that players like to stick to the characters they are comfortable with even if they lose to a character and know which characters hard counter the character they lost to.

You need to know how to use the character to hard counter the other character.
With DDD, you are guaranteed the win vs. 5 characters. No other match-ups are like that.


As for the damage cap- that won't work as I and others have already pointed out over a week ago. People will still abuse it because they can use it. It would only be enforceable to ban the entire infinite, not limiting it.

well, like i said, if they chose not to CP, it's their "fault" and they have to accept the results.
how is a damage cap not enforceable? we're not talking about limiting it to ____numbers of grabs here, just a simple damage cap. it's EASY to enforce.

 

[beamswordsman]

Believe me, I've been to enough Brawl tournaments to know that players like to stick to the characters they are comfortable with even if they lose to a character and know which characters hard counter the character they lost to. Do they secondary the counter?

You need to know how to use the character to hard counter the other character.
With DDD, you are guaranteed the win vs. 5 characters. No other match-ups are like that.
You have a better chance to win. It's a COUNTER.


As for the damage cap- that won't work as I and others have already pointed out over a week ago. People will still abuse it because they can use it. It would only be enforceable to ban the entire infinite, not limiting it.

Is it me, or does this thread sound more like the MK debate?

 

[ShadowLink84]

You need to know how to use the character to hard counter the other character.
With DDD, you are guaranteed the win vs. 5 characters. No other match-ups are like that.

Big freaking deal its easy to do!
What amtters is the EFFECTS!
Frankly the effects of the DDD infinite ont hose 5 characters is NOTHING when compared to the whole of the metagame.
5 characters get a nasty hard counter.
That is what happens in other matchups.
Pika user needs VERY LITTLE skill to beat Fox because he is that much of a counter.

As for the damage cap- that won't work as I and others have already pointed out over a week ago. People will still abuse it because they can use it. It would only be enforceable to ban the entire infinite, not limiting it.

Can you bring up the original points please?

@Kid: No one cares about your Fox. End story.

 

[Wylde]

I'm curious to know why dedede's infinite would be banned before any other infinite. So he has an infinite that effects DK, Samus, Mario, Luigi, with ledge infinites on himself and Wolf....

The ice climbers can infinite everyone, but they aren't banned.

Sure, the ice climbers infinite is much harder to do, but {Melee Comparison} Fox was the hardest/best character in melee, but marth/sheik were. . . very high tier for how much easier they were to learn{/Melee Comparison}

 

[M15t3R E]

well, like i said, if they chose not to CP, it's their "fault" and they have to accept the results.
how is a damage cap not enforceable? we're not talking about limiting it to ____numbers of grabs here, just a simple damage cap. it's EASY to enforce.

So we've brought the anti-ban side to the conclusion that it must at least be limited.
Okay, imagine you use the infinite beyond what's legal and I pause and exit the match and declare you disqualified. Then I go to the TO to report my win and you go complain to the TO that you never used the infinite beyond the legal limits. That may call for a do-over.

Not that you would do this. But some players are dishonest.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I'm curious to know why dedede's infinite would be banned before any other infinite. So he has an infinite that effects DK, Samus, Mario, Luigi, with ledge infinites on himself and Wolf....

The ice climbers can infinite everyone, but they aren't banned.

Sure, the ice climbers infinite is much harder to do, but {Melee Comparison} Fox was the hardest/best character in melee, but marth/sheik were. . . very high tier for how much easier they were to learn{/Melee Comparison}

The main reason people are arguing about it is because unlike the IC infintie, DDD's infinite is broken.
Broken as in it wrecks those characters. (since some people are too stupid to tell the obvious difference in word usage0.
It hits much harder than the IC's. he only difference being, it doesn't hit ENOUGH characters to make a difference.
So While IC's are universal, their infinite is not something that breaks matchups.

DDD doesn't affect enough.
IC's don't hit hard enough.
They both miss one aspect required for a ban.
Thats the basic gist of it.

So we've brought the anti-ban side to the conclusion that it must at least be limited.
Okay, imagine you use the infinite beyond what's legal and I pause and exit the match and declare you disqualified. Then I go to the TO to report my win and you go complain to the TO that you never used the infinite beyond the legal limits. That may call for a do-over.

Not that you would do this. But some players are dishonest.

Or simply put you wouldn't exit the game because you would pause and unplug your opponents and your own controller and call the TO over so they can see the evidence.

Forget the first part it was an error on my part concerning pause.

 

[XxBlackxX]

So we've brought the anti-ban side to the conclusion that it must at least be limited.
Okay, imagine you use the infinite beyond what's legal and I pause and exit the match and declare you disqualified. Then I go to the TO to report my win and you go complain to the TO that you never used the infinite beyond the legal limits. That may call for a do-over.

Not that you would do this. But some players are dishonest.

if by limited you mean % cap, yes. it is already at 300%, and i think most if not all anti-ban people would have no problem limiting it to 200%. however, limits as in only ___ grabs in row are stupid.

ok, second thing, why would you exit the match when you can pause and go to the TO and show him the %tage?

 

[M15t3R E]

Showing the % your character is at to the TO is proof that the other player abused DDD's infinite?

How?
What's going to stop the DDD user from lying that he racked up lots of damage beforehand with other attacks?
Also, no DDD is going to infinite beyond 200% anyway. DDD can kill long before that. 200% is too high of a cap.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Showing the % your character is at to the TO is proof that the other player abused DDD's infinite?

How?
What's going to stop the DDD user from lying that he racked up lots of damage beforehand with other attacks?[.quote]
You pause in the middle of the D throw.
its not hard considering how slow the animation is.

Also, no DDD is going to infinite beyond 200% anyway. DDD can kill long before that. 200% is too high of a cap.

The cap prevents stalling not getting killed.

 

[M15t3R E]

I say lower the cap to 100-125%. Then there's no way for it to create a broken match-up. One-sided match-up, maybe, but it would no longer be broken.

 

[Wylde]

Might as well ban the infinite at that point.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I say lower the cap to 100-125%. Then there's no way for it to create a broken match-up. One-sided match-up, maybe, but it would no longer be broken.

You can break out of it in between pummels you know -_-;
why 100%-125%? That is much too low and would warrant it being banned anyway.

 

[M15t3R E]

You can break out of it in between pummels you know -_-;
why 100%-125%? That is much too low and would warrant it being banned anyway.

Only if the DDD uses too many pummel attacks.
200% would still make it a broken match-up and allow for stalling as it could be done on each of the 3 stocks.

 

[Kinzer]

I'd stop at 80%, that's how far the Pikachu CG goes on Fox anyway, and it's still reasonable.

The difference being with that matchup though, is that outside the CG, fox still gets destroyed, nothing can be done about that.

 

[Wylde]

Dedede does well without the infinite on all those characters cept really luigi imo. DK does alot better, but d3 can still camp

 

[ShadowLink84]

Only if the DDD uses too many pummel attacks.
200% would still make it a broken match-up and allow for stalling as it could be done on each of the 3 stocks.

You can escape after 1 pummel because his pummel animation is slow.
Fiction escaped at 129% against M2k's DDD after 1 pummel.

 

[XxBlackxX]

I'd stop at 80%, that's how far the Pikachu CG goes on Fox anyway, and it's still reasonable.

The difference being with that matchup though, is that outside the CG, fox still gets destroyed, nothing can be done about that.

why 80?
btw, guys, the damage cap ISN'T to make the matchup any better! it is only to remove the stalling possibilities of the move, therefore, 80 and 125 are too low. 200 is about right.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You can escape after 1 pummel because his pummel animation is slow.
Fiction escaped at 129% against M2k's DDD after 1 pummel.

Did he really?

 

[Tornadith]

What's really weird is that this poll and the "Should Meta Knight Be Banned?" have pretty much the same percentages.
Yes = 55%
No = 44%

 

[Kinzer]

To get to 200% takes way to long, and by then it's mostly just takes a well-placed hit for D3 to take the stock.

You might as well just leave the infinite in with that said, you either need to lower your standards (you really do), or ban/leave the infinite.

80% is reasonable, because the opponent isn't going to die from any hit D3 chooses to use, and D3 will still have to work to get the K.O., that's the point of the limit.

But I just say 80% because I'm thinking of the CG on Fox Pikachu has.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Did he really?

Yes it is in a video on youtube.