Should Hero be treated differently because this is a fighter?

[QrowinSP]

Hero's RNG is inherently different from item RNG, to the point where I am baffled people would even compare them. Hero is so much less random than items. Like, by several orders of magnitude.

Items have THREE dimensions of randomness.

1. WHICH item spawns
2. WHERE the item spawns
3. WHEN the item spawns

Hero has perfect control over when and where. Which means there is only 1 random aspect: Which ability (or crit vs non crit) will appear when he decides to roll the dice.

If you know anything about math, you know that these levels of randomness are not even CLOSE to comparable. This isn't 1/3 as random. We're dealing with exponents here. If there are only 10 possibilities for when/where/what items spawn, and only 10 possibilities for command selections, then we're dealing with a Hero that is 1% as random as items. If there are 20, then we're dealing .25%. It's probably even LESS than .25%.

The fact that we ban items cannot even conceivably be used as precedent for banning hero. Truth be told, the degrees of randomness with hero are completely untraveled territory. There IS no precedent in smash for this. The idea of even talking about banning him exclusively comes from paranoia and saltiness over seeing what people would call "cheese".

The only legitimate reason I've seen for banning him is the language barrier. And even that is something I'd argue has potential solutions.

 

[VodkaHaze]

Hero's RNG is inherently different from item RNG, to the point where I am baffled people would even compare them. Hero is so much less random than items. Like, by several orders of magnitude.

Items have THREE dimensions of randomness.

1. WHICH item spawns
2. WHERE the item spawns
3. WHEN the item spawns

Hero has perfect control over when and where. Which means there is only 1 random aspect: Which ability (or crit vs non crit) will appear when he decides to roll the dice.

If you know anything about math, you know that these levels of randomness are not even CLOSE to comparable. This isn't 1/3 as random. We're dealing with exponents here. If there are only 10 possibilities for when/where/what items spawn, and only 10 possibilities for command selections, then we're dealing with a Hero that is 1% as random as items. If there are 20, then we're dealing .25%. It's probably even LESS than .25%.

The fact that we ban items cannot even conceivably be used as precedent for banning hero. Truth be told, the degrees of randomness with hero are completely untraveled territory. There IS no precedent in smash for this. The idea of even talking about banning him exclusively comes from paranoia and saltiness over seeing what people would call "cheese".

The only legitimate reason I've seen for banning him is the language barrier. And even that is something I'd argue has potential solutions.

So if you had the option to make sure items are on, but it only spawns bob-ombs every 45 seconds in the centre of the stage, would you do it? After all, which, where and when the item spawns isn't random. The effect isn't random either, bob-ombs always explode. Also, if you decide to just go for the first option without looking at it (which Heroes do do btw), and it's Hocus Pocus, Whack or Thwack, then not only is the spell random, but also the effect is random as well, making the randomness layered like items.

Also, you say people are paranoid that they might die from Thwack at 0% in grand finals, but it has happened. I'd be rightfully salty if this happened to me, and trying to dismiss concerns by lumping it in the same category as Kirbycide or spiking with Chrom's Up-B is disingenuous.

 

[ZephyrZ]

So if you had the option to make sure items are on, but it only spawns bob-ombs every 45 seconds in the centre of the stage, would you do it? After all, which, where and when the item spawns isn't random.

Well there's always been a case for legalizing Halberd (even if it's become increasingly unpopular to the point that even hazards off Halberd won't be given a chance by this stingy community), but at this point the argument isn't even about RNG anymore. It's an entirely different debate.

I'd say hypothetical Ba-bombs appearing at set intervals is more comparable to the timer on ROBs lazers and Wario's waft, but even then it's still a really iffy comparison.

Also, if you decide to just go for the first option without looking at it (which Heroes do do btw), and it's Hocus Pocus, Whack or Thwack, then not only is the spell random, but also the effect is random as well, making the randomness layered like items.

In these cases, the randomness isn't even layered in Hero's favor though. First you have to roll thwack, then you have to hope it gets it's tiny chance to instakill at 0%. Compared to Mr.G&W's one layer of randomness on his judge.

What's that? Mr.G&W isn't a perfect comparison you say? Well that's exactly what we're saying about items.
Hero is his own beast, and comparisons should only be used when appropriate.

 

[VodkaHaze]

Well there's always been a case for legalizing Halberd (even if it's become increasingly unpopular to the point that even hazards off Halberd won't be given a chance by this stingy community), but at this point the argument isn't even about RNG anymore. It's an entirely different debate.

I'd say hypothetical Ba-bombs appearing at set intervals is more comparable to the timer on ROBs lazers and Wario's waft, but even then it's still a really iffy comparison.
In these cases, the randomness isn't even layered in Hero's favor though. First you have to roll thwack, then you have to hope it gets it's tiny chance to instakill at 0%. Compared to Mr.G&W's one layer of randomness on his judge.

What's that? Mr.G&W isn't a perfect comparison you say? Well that's exactly what we're saying about items.
Hero is his own beast, and comparisons should only be used when appropriate.

Mr. Game & Watch is a bad comparison because Judge has only one option that's godly that you have to land, while the rest are kinda OK at best and atrocious at worst. Hero's Command Selection has it so even if you select only the first option, the chance that you'll get a good command is pretty high. Also, the majority of tournament matches have G&W not use Judge because it's too risky.

Items are more comparable to Hero's RNG because his RNG will determine more stocks than Judge 9. Got a Zoom while they're trying to edgeguard? You don't die. Got a Magic Burst while your opponent is offstage? Free edgeguard against most of the cast. Got Bounce in the neutral? Great if your opponent relies on projectiles. Opponent was whacked at 0%? It's your lucky day.

On an unrelated note, I don't know how people would get around the language barrier, especially if they have dyslexia.

 

[shinhed-echi]

1) Have a secondary just in case.

2) Establish a legal “universal Hero language” to learn in case neither player agrees on the language to use. If a player is determined enough to stick it out as Hero, the player will learn a set of words in another language. If the alternative is a ban, no less.

3) Language turn. Via Judgement Hammer or something, it will be decided which player goes first with his/her language. On the second match, the OTHER player gets to fight with his/her language as automatic counterpick.
Round 3 could be played:
3.1) In a completely different language than the prior 2 matches.
3.2) Judgement Hammer decides again.
3.3) Counterpick again.
3.4) Ban Down+B

Just a few ideas.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

This point that Hero's command selection is reactable is a myth. Human reaction time is on average 0.25 seconds for visual stimuli (so about 15 frames). Hero's command selection is active on frame 19. Please also consider that Ultimate has input lag between 6-7 frames. What you're forgetting is the command selection is part of your peripheral vision. So your reaction time will be slower because you now have to bring your attention away from the characters and to the menu. And if the Hero just immediately goes for the first option, and it's say Whack or Snooze which both have 6 frame startup, you had better have pressed shield by frames 18-19. Every frame matters in Smash, especially at higher levels.

Also note that not only can Hero select four commands, but he has more options. He can shield, he can jump, and shield cancel into things like a dash grab or Fsmash. This means you can't react reliably to all his options because you might think he'll go for Snooze (6 frames) so you shield, but he could go for a dash grab (4 frame cancel + 6 frame dash grab = 10 frames) or Hatchet Man (11 frames) and your shield is toast.

TL;DR - If you try reading all of Hero's options, you will lose, especially if you have issues reading (second language, dyslexia, etc.)

No, it's not a myth. Frame 19 gives you a decent window to react. Thwack becomes active on about frame 22 and Whack on frame 6, the later being a small and slow moving projectile. Note that I didn't mention anything about reading his commands, not always at least, but being conscious of his options. That doesn't mean stopping to read his command menu but being aware of the possibility that he can get his most dangerous options right off the bat and react with caution. I'm also pretty sure that Hatchet Man is active on frame 37 so you have no business shielding that move; aside from the fact that his Melee options have limited range due to Hero being immobile.

If the player Hero decides to go for the first option most of the time, you must become aware of this fact and be ready to perform a defensive option and anticipate Snooze, Whack, Thwack and his other projectiles. And let's not forget the fact that this is not an optimal way to play Hero.

Magic Burst is the only one that is truly stupid at the edge, but Hero needs to have 70 mana or more for it to have reliable KO power, which would mean that he needs to play on stage using his other tools as little as possible and avoiding overextending on his moves that use MP.

Also, you say people are paranoid that they might die from Thwack at 0% in grand finals, but it has happened. I'd be rightfully salty if this happened to me, and trying to dismiss concerns by lumping it in the same category as Kirbycide or spiking with Chrom's Up-B is disingenuous.

Based on that clip, that player threw an unsafe option and got punished for it. Why was he jumping and charging Kazapple in his face when the opponent JUST opened up his command menu as he was falling from the recovery platform? When an opponent spawns, most players try to get away from them until the invincibility wears off. If he waited out a bit by putting some distance and doing a defensive option, Hero wouldn't even be able to punish him by cancelling and dash grabbing. This is player unawareness at its finest. They will be salty and they will have no one to blame but themselves for making a bad decision on the spot.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Items are more comparable to Hero's RNG because his RNG will determine more stocks than Judge 9. Got a Zoom while they're trying to edge guard? You don't die. Got a Magic Burst while your opponent is offstage? Free edgeguard against most of the cast. Got Bounce in the neutral? Great if your opponent relies on projectiles. Opponent was whacked at 0%? It's your lucky day.

Peach's turnip also has the potential to determine multiple stocks within a match. It's still really disingenuous to say that items are completely comparable while Judge/Turnip are not.

One huge difference between Hero's Down Special and random items is that Hero's Down Special still requires player input. That also means there's risk assessment and opportunity cost involved - don't get the spell you wanted and you just wasted precious time you could have spend pressing advantage, fighting for stage control, ect. Not to mention the mana costs associated with each.

That random ba-bomb that randomly appeared in front of your well spaced Fair didn't care about player input, and it didn't care how well either you or your opponent were playing. It didn't require that you landed a Smash Attack or found breathing room to fish for a menu option, and your opponent didn't lose meter from a valuable gauge or leave himself open when that bomb exploded in your face.

They're different things.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

The main issue I have with Down-B is that you cannot react to all outcomes the same, and it is unpredictable how you should react.

Peach: Hold shield. If you see Saturn, don't hold shield
Mr G&W: Hold shield or take two steps backwards
Luigi: Hold shield or jump
Hero: Hold shield, unless it's Hatchet Man or a buff, then don't let them hit shield. But also be careful because they may just pick a different option. If you hold shield you will block the Thwack, but if they use Hatchet Man you die, if you drop shield, you also may die. Okay, just run away, oh wait. Kaboom has a suction hitbox and also he just healed...okay let's go attack instead. Oh no, Kamikaze, or Mana Burst...well, you didn't need that stock anyways.

This lack of counter play is why I think Hero should be banned or seriously nerfed. There is no way to predict what's coming and there is no way to predict how to counter it. This would be fine if this situation didn't often result in a lost stock.

 

[Wigglerman]

The main issue I have with Down-B is that you cannot react to all outcomes the same, and it is unpredictable how you should react.

Peach: Hold shield. If you see Saturn, don't hold shield
Mr G&W: Hold shield or take two steps backwards
Luigi: Hold shield or jump
Hero: Hold shield, unless it's Hatchet Man or a buff, then don't let them hit shield. But also be careful because they may just pick a different option. If you hold shield you will block the Thwack, but if they use Hatchet Man you die, if you drop shield, you also may die. Okay, just run away, oh wait. Kaboom has a suction hitbox and also he just healed...okay let's go attack instead. Oh no, Kamikaze, or Mana Burst...well, you didn't need that stock anyways.

This lack of counter play is why I think Hero should be banned or seriously nerfed. There is no way to predict what's coming and there is no way to predict how to counter it. This would be fine if this situation didn't often result in a lost stock.

His down B can be reacted to the same way for just about all his possible choices: Jump or hit him with a projectile.

You should rarely be giving him a moment to even open the menu, let alone give him (or yourself) time to decide best reactions to the selection.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

His down B can be reacted to the same way for just about all his possible choices: Jump or hit him with a projectile.

You should rarely be giving him a moment to even open the menu, let alone give him (or yourself) time to decide best reactions to the selection.

Jump: Mana Burst, Snooze, Kaboom, and Kamikaze beat this. Projectile: Kamikaze, Bounce, and almost all projectiles Hero has beat this, plus not all characters have projectiles.

And also, I hate the 'just don't let him do it' argument. If I was playing Sonic, sure. But there are 77 characters, not all of them can just put pressure on Hero every single second of the match, particularly with all of the different options Hero has at his disposal.

 

[shinhed-echi]

The main issue I have with Down-B is that you cannot react to all outcomes the same, and it is unpredictable how you should react.

Peach: Hold shield. If you see Saturn, don't hold shield
Mr G&W: Hold shield or take two steps backwards
Luigi: Hold shield or jump
Hero: Hold shield, unless it's Hatchet Man or a buff, then don't let them hit shield. But also be careful because they may just pick a different option. If you hold shield you will block the Thwack, but if they use Hatchet Man you die, if you drop shield, you also may die. Okay, just run away, oh wait. Kaboom has a suction hitbox and also he just healed...okay let's go attack instead. Oh no, Kamikaze, or Mana Burst...well, you didn't need that stock anyways.

This lack of counter play is why I think Hero should be banned or seriously nerfed. There is no way to predict what's coming and there is no way to predict how to counter it. This would be fine if this situation didn't often result in a lost stock.

You can’t shield a G&W dthrow to Hammer confirm, tho.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

You can’t shield a G&W dthrow to Hammer confirm, tho.

I'm not even positive that still works in this game. Regardless, you can react to a grab, and taking two steps backwards still applies. On top of that, both grab and hammer have a short range, so as long as you stay out of arm's length, you're safe.

Against Hero, as long as you're not directly in front...or all the way across the stage...or anywhere within a few meters radius...or shielding...or jumping...or attacking...or on ledge. As long as you don't do any of those, you've made a safe decision.

EDIT: Also don't just back away and do nothing because he might buff himself up
EDIT 2: Besides, the point was that you are trying to react to one move, not their entire arsenal. There is no predicting a Hero Down-B.

 

[Nate1080]

The main issue I have with Down-B is that you cannot react to all outcomes the same, and it is unpredictable how you should react.

Peach: Hold shield. If you see Saturn, don't hold shield
Mr G&W: Hold shield or take two steps backwards
Luigi: Hold shield or jump
Hero: Hold shield, unless it's Hatchet Man or a buff, then don't let them hit shield. But also be careful because they may just pick a different option. If you hold shield you will block the Thwack, but if they use Hatchet Man you die, if you drop shield, you also may die. Okay, just run away, oh wait. Kaboom has a suction hitbox and also he just healed...okay let's go attack instead. Oh no, Kamikaze, or Mana Burst...well, you didn't need that stock anyways.

This lack of counter play is why I think Hero should be banned or seriously nerfed. There is no way to predict what's coming and there is no way to predict how to counter it. This would be fine if this situation didn't often result in a lost stock.

If you’re close enough for him to hatchet man you, I don’t get how you can’t stuff what he picks from menu (forcing him to waste MP) or stuff menu entirely while he’s in menu picking stuff. And if he catches you while recovering from ledge, tbh you deserved it for being impatient.

Otherwise, stay in shield, you’re pretty safe and have room for a counterattack or whatever. If he picks a boost, you’re still fine unless you literally let him charge his slow smash attacks to break your shield.


I’ve been playing Hero almost exclusively since he dropped, I’m serious when I say he pretty much loses to shield damn near 100% of the time. He only breaks shields if the opponent lets him.

 

[ZephyrZ]

The main issue I have with Down-B is that you cannot react to all outcomes the same, and it is unpredictable how you should react.

Peach: Hold shield. If you see Saturn, don't hold shield
Mr G&W: Hold shield or take two steps backwards
Luigi: Hold shield or jump
Hero: Hold shield, unless it's Hatchet Man or a buff, then don't let them hit shield. But also be careful because they may just pick a different option. If you hold shield you will block the Thwack, but if they use Hatchet Man you die, if you drop shield, you also may die. Okay, just run away, oh wait. Kaboom has a suction hitbox and also he just healed...okay let's go attack instead. Oh no, Kamikaze, or Mana Burst...well, you didn't need that stock anyways.

This lack of counter play is why I think Hero should be banned or seriously nerfed. There is no way to predict what's coming and there is no way to predict how to counter it. This would be fine if this situation didn't often result in a lost stock.

If you think Hero's 37 frame hatchet man is unreactable then don't know what to tell you. Ganondorf's F-smash comes out faster.

Also: Accelerate is 34 total frames. Oomph and Psych Up are both 40+ frames. You might not be always be able to stop him from getting the buffs but you'll be able to adapt once he gets them.

 

[Wigglerman]

Jump: Mana Burst, Snooze, Kaboom, and Kamikaze beat this. Projectile: Kamikaze, Bounce, and almost all projectiles Hero has beat this, plus not all characters have projectiles.

And also, I hate the 'just don't let him do it' argument. If I was playing Sonic, sure. But there are 77 characters, not all of them can just put pressure on Hero every single second of the match, particularly with all of the different options Hero has at his disposal.

Snooze does not beat jump (it can, but isn't often the case. But Shield works 100% of the time so that's another 'safer' answer). It's not a big hitbox, doesn't go too far and if you get hit in the air, the sleep effect is negligible (Wears off as soon as you hit the ground). Magic Burst/Kamskazi obviously beat jump but are the rarest spells in his list besides Hocus Pocus and Magic Burst is only good if he has decent amounts of MP left. Kamakazi is bad for him too unless he's a stock ahead...and the range of it isn't that great either. Kaboom only 'beats' jump if you're at just the right distance that the explosion will actually get you.

The 'don't let him do it' argument is literally the answer. There's hardly a character in this roster who is not capable of keeping up with Hero and putting on the pressure so he doesn't even have a chance to open that menu in the first place. Please, name a reasonable list of characters in Ultimate who simply aren't capable of keeping up with the relatively slow Hero and don't have some sort of solid pressure option (Doesn't even need to be a projectile) that keeps him from menu surfing uninterrupted.

I often find I can RARELY open my menu when I play Hero because people know giving me that opportunity is not something I should be given and my frame data is just bad, so I've got to be so careful with my spacing to try to push them back. Hell, I can rarely even get a fully charged fireball more than once or twice per game unless I'm playing out of my mind and can keep them off stage long enough.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

If you’re close enough for him to hatchet man you, I don’t get how you can’t stuff what he picks from menu (forcing him to waste MP) or stuff menu entirely while he’s in menu picking stuff. And if he catches you while recovering from ledge, tbh you deserved it for being impatient.

Otherwise, stay in shield, you’re pretty safe and have room for a counterattack or whatever. If he picks a boost, you’re still fine unless you literally let him charge his slow smash attacks to break your shield.


I’ve been playing Hero almost exclusively since he dropped, I’m serious when I say he pretty much loses to shield damn near 100% of the time. He only breaks shields if the opponent lets him.

If you think Hero's 37 frame hatchet man is unreactable then don't know what to tell you. Ganondorf's F-smash comes out faster.

Also: Accelerate is 34 total frames. Oomph and Psych Up are both 40+ frames. You might not be always be able to stop him from getting the buffs but you'll be able to adapt once he gets them.

These are fair points, and honestly now that I think about it, shield is a strong option. However I don't think it's that clear cut. There are situations in which shield is not a viable option (off stage, shield is low, in the air, whiffed attacks, etc.) in this situation, regardless of how we got there, Down-B is unpredictable and cannot be out-played. If I'm offstage, I want to know all the options that are possible to kill me. I can't react the same way to Mana Burst as I would to Kaboom or Snooze, or even Bounce or another buff. I will admit, shield is a good option, but in situations where shield is not available it is still a requirement for a character to have predictable counter play.

Snooze does not beat jump (it can, but isn't often the case. But Shield works 100% of the time so that's another 'safer' answer). It's not a big hitbox, doesn't go too far and if you get hit in the air, the sleep effect is negligible (Wears off as soon as you hit the ground). Magic Burst/Kamskazi obviously beat jump but are the rarest spells in his list besides Hocus Pocus and Magic Burst is only good if he has decent amounts of MP left. Kamakazi is bad for him too unless he's a stock ahead...and the range of it isn't that great either. Kaboom only 'beats' jump if you're at just the right distance that the explosion will actually get you.

The 'don't let him do it' argument is literally the answer. There's hardly a character in this roster who is not capable of keeping up with Hero and putting on the pressure so he doesn't even have a chance to open that menu in the first place. Please, name a reasonable list of characters in Ultimate who simply aren't capable of keeping up with the relatively slow Hero and don't have some sort of solid pressure option (Doesn't even need to be a projectile) that keeps him from menu surfing uninterrupted.

I often find I can RARELY open my menu when I play Hero because people know giving me that opportunity is not something I should be given and my frame data is just bad, so I've got to be so careful with my spacing to try to push them back. Hell, I can rarely even get a fully charged fireball more than once or twice per game unless I'm playing out of my mind and can keep them off stage long enough.

For this I am assuming I am a full stage length away or in disadvantage, because there are kill moves that work from this distance / position.

-DK
-Kirby
-Luigi
-Jigglypuff
-Bowser
-Marth / Lucina
-Mr. G&W
-Ike
-Mii Brawler
-Shulk
-Bayonetta
-King K Rool
-Incineroar

If these characters are far away, because they were put in disadvantage, they could reasonably be killed from Hero's Down-B.

 

[Wigglerman]

-DK
-Kirby
-Luigi
-Jigglypuff
-Bowser
-Marth / Lucina
-Mr. G&W
-Ike
-Mii Brawler
-Shulk
-Bayonetta
-King K Rool
-Incineroar

So let's logically look at this list and what they can do against Hero, should they be full stage at any given time.

-Kirby has the air. What can Hero do against Kirby in the air? Hope for Magic Burst and then leave himself mana starved? Hope to bait a kamakazi? I'd be willing to bet Kirby is in the stock lead among equally skilled players. Not a good option. Pray for a Thwak and hope Kirby just floats in front of him for it to hit? Kirby can just float all around and ignore just about every spell Hero has. He'd be better off selecting a buff and hoping to land a solid hit. When Kirby gets in (and he will) Hero will get combo'd and put back in disadvantage (And honestly, disadvantage for Hero is anyone being closer than half stage). You could also force a menu drop with Up Special, using the projectile portion to cause Hero to react, unless he has an answer in his Menu which you've had ample time to observe while floating around.

-Jigglypuff again has the air. Same game plan with Kirby. Float around and make Hero sweat. You don't even need to do anything aggressive. Just being close is enough to make Hero drop the menu. Playing this game of 'chicken' with his very few AOE spells is not likely to happen unless he is Menu shuffling while you float around. You pressure just by existing in an uncomfortable closeness, ala Kirby.

-Bowser is fast. Bowser should have no trouble closing the gap. Even being big shouldn't matter much. You can react and shield many if his projectiles, or hop over and before he can recover, Bowser is now chewing on his face...or at the very least...making him uncomfortable with how close you suddenly are. What is Hero going to do about that now? Open the Menu in striking distance?

-Marth/Lucina? Should I have to make an argument as to how, arguably, the best swordies in the game harass a projectile user and keep up constant pressure with their amazing movement speed and air speed? One whiffed spell is all these two need to get in and put on stock threatening damage to Hero. They literally bait and chase, it's been their plan for a while and one they don't suck at.

-G&W Bucket. Literally answers every projectile move, not to mention he can duck most spells due to how small he is, or just Up B and glide into position. He only fears Kamakazi and Magic Burst which again are situational or put Hero in bad situations if they whiff.

-Ike I'd agree suffers a little more than most but every Ike I've played has zero issues keeping on me and even Ike has better frame data than Hero and is actually faster. His air speed is decent to hop over spells thrown (Or block) or counter if he feels ballsy.

-Brawler's options entirely depend on his load out. I'd imagine the psudo-ZSS flip kick is going to work wonders on not only covering the gap but getting a punish on the second attack. Yet even with out it, I'm just going to repeat myself. JUMP OR BLOCK.

-Shulk has monado to give him either speed or jump. There is no way he isn't getting across the stage to deal with a Hero sitting there with his menu open. And if the Hero isn't rapidly cycling his Menu and just sitting on one screen, you know what he has. You can bait it, you can punish it. Or just go Defense as you get closer and you're not going anywhere no matter what you might get hit with (Unless Thwak or Whack but...why are you getting hit by this).

-Bayo has great air options to traverse the entire stage without landing once. She can also shoot him with her neutral special to force him out of the menu. She can also Witch Time a spell thrown her way if feeling ballsy...or just block then resume her approach.

-K Rool might have the hardest time of the lot if he's finding himself on the other side of the stage. Depending on stage, he has platforms though. Hop along those. Ballsy = belly reflect any spell thrown or the safe option is...block. he's faster than Hero so gaining distance even on ground isn't too much a challenge. He's still big so I confess, a bad character in general is going to have a hard time no matter the match up.

-Incineroar is one slow boy but he is often underestimated. Revenge damaging projectiles if you feel bold or use your air options to traverse. You've got double jump, you can stall a bit with Fspecial and when in position, you can even try to use Cross Chop to hit Hero while he's sitting there (Even go through plats, or mix up by not going through the plat like they may expect and you've not only forced them to drop menu but now in their space). From there you play some cat and mouse as Incineroar does with most everyone but Hero isn't so fast as to outrun you and STILL get that menu back open.

While I may sound repetitive...block and jump solve 95% of the options Hero has when his Menu is open. None of them are unblockable sans Kamakazi.

As for full stage length away? With what Spell? His fireball goes fairly far but not full stage, is slow and reactable. Sizz and Kaboom? Sizz is shorter ranged and Kaboom is likely the one to do the job with the vacuum effect before explosion but can be blocked before the explosion happens. Thwak and Whack aren't getting you from full stage. Nor is Kamakazi or Magic Burst. His side special isn't hitting you full stage. Sleep isn't full reach and isn't going to kill unless it manages to hit and Hero runs all the way across the stage before you mash out of sleep. The rest of his spells are buffs, heals or slashes.

So...how is anyone 'reasonably' getting killed full stage by Hero?

 

[ZephyrZ]

Not everything Hero has has to be reactable, just the really nasty stuff.

Kamikaze is 41 frames. He'll only hit you with it if you are cornered or if you slip up. Even then he loses his stock regardless of if he hits it or not.

Thwack is 23 frames, just one frame slower then Bowser F-smash. You can all react to Bowser F-smash, right?

Then there's Magic Burst. Okay, I'll admit that once you factor in the potential hitbox this move can be crazy if you don't have a way to stall it out offstage. Still though, it takes luck to pull and costs mana. I'd argue Nikita is still crazier in some match ups. It's a pain to deal with but not ban-worthy.

 

[VodkaHaze]

Not everything Hero has has to be reactable, just the really nasty stuff.

Kamikaze is 41 frames. He'll only hit you with it if you are cornered or if you slip up. Even then he loses his stock regardless of if he hits it or not.

Thwack is 23 frames, just one frame slower then Bowser F-smash. You can all react to Bowser F-smash, right?

Then there's Magic Burst. Okay, I'll admit that once you factor in the potential hitbox this move can be crazy if you don't have a way to stall it out offstage. Still though, it takes luck to pull and costs mana. I'd argue Nikita is still crazier in some match ups. It's a pain to deal with but not ban-worthy.

But that's the point. It's random whether you get Magic Burst or not. If you get it, it's a free edgeguard. If you don't, then unless you have another good option for edgeguarding, the opponent is back on the stage. Not to mention it also takes little to no skill to use, just stand far away so they can't use a ledge attack but close enough so it covers all options. Nikita takes actual skill to use because you still have to hit the opponent.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Alright I need a clear answer for this, because just the notion of banning the character leaves such a bad taste in my mouth, I’m pretty much done with the competitive scene including watching streams.

So...
Why not just ban Down+B

If people are upset at the randomness of the character, then this should be the best middle ground solution.

It covers:
- Too much RNG
- 0% Kill shenanigans
- Cheap edgeguards
- Every issue regarding Language barriers.

What you’re left is with a character with bad but powerful normal, great but consumable specials. And a critical hit gimmick which has as much RNG as G&W’s [9] Hammer has.


If Wobbling and Infinite Cape could be banned, then why not just ban Down+B instead of trying to reach for every possible excuse to ban a Hero apparently not many people like?

 

[Wigglerman]

Alright I need a clear answer for this, because just the notion of banning the character leaves such a bad taste in my mouth, I’m pretty much done with the competitive scene including watching streams.

So...
Why not just ban Down+B

If people are upset at the randomness of the character, then this should be the best middle ground solution.

It covers:
- Too much RNG
- 0% Kill shenanigans
- Cheap edgeguards
- Every issue regarding Language barriers.

What you’re left is with a character with bad but powerful normal, great but consumable specials. And a critical hit gimmick which has as much RNG as G&W’s [9] Hammer has.


If Wobbling and Infinite Cape could be banned, then why not just ban Down+B instead of trying to reach for every possible excuse to ban a Hero apparently not many people like?

Because banning an entire move isn't the same as banning something like wobbling. Down Special is also, quite literally, the only move that helps make Hero even somewhat viable on a competitive level. Just delete the character. This would be like saying "Oh, why not just ban Bayo's slide kick in Smash 4. problem solved!" (Though Bayo still had other good stuff but slide kick ladder to death combos were her largest grievance).

People need to stop whining and play against Hero more. His RNG 'sucks' now because people aren't used to how he functions or how to react to what he might throw out, or just how to shut down his menu use in the first place (Spoiler alert: Aggression). Instead of having tantrums and refusing to learn the match up, people need to discover for themselves that Hero isn't even that great competitively even with his RNG, which is often a detriment to himself as much as his opponent.

The only legitimate issue I've seen brought up is the language barrier. That I can agree with but I still don't find it BAN worthy. Other characters have super easy or cheap edge guards in this game, and I mean STUPID good for little investment (Looking at you, Ivysaur, just to name one). No one is issuing bans over Joker's Arsen shinanigans which might as well be full criticals all the time while it's active.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Because banning an entire move isn't the same as banning something like wobbling. Down Special is also, quite literally, the only move that helps make Hero even somewhat viable on a competitive level. Just delete the character. This would be like saying "Oh, why not just ban Bayo's slide kick in Smash 4. problem solved!" (Though Bayo still had other good stuff but slide kick ladder to death combos were her largest grievance).

People need to stop whining and play against Hero more. His RNG 'sucks' now because people aren't used to how he functions or how to react to what he might throw out, or just how to shut down his menu use in the first place (Spoiler alert: Aggression). Instead of having tantrums and refusing to learn the match up, people need to discover for themselves that Hero isn't even that great competitively even with his RNG, which is often a detriment to himself as much as his opponent.

The only legitimate issue I've seen brought up is the language barrier. That I can agree with but I still don't find it BAN worthy. Other characters have super easy or cheap edge guards in this game, and I mean STUPID good for little investment (Looking at you, Ivysaur, just to name one). No one is issuing bans over Joker's Arsen shinanigans which might as well be full criticals all the time while it's active.

Of course I'm anti-ban. I actually have fingers and a brain that allow me to react to Hero's moves and allow me to pressure him.
There's only so much he can cast from the other side of the screen where I can't do something about it (like buffs).
And the ones from up close, the only one that shouldn't be shielded has about as many start frames as a Falcon Punch if not more, and can be interrupted.

But this rant and question is directed at the people who are out there to ban the whole package, just because of the new made up rule that there's such a thing as "too much RNG" and everything that followed.


So yeah, I'm on board the anti-ban train. But I'd be extremely disgusted if Hero does get banned, and we didn't even consider a middle ground. Because everything has to be in extremes.

But yeah, on the grounds of banning Hero to "not repeat the mistakes of the past". Then... let's not? There's more than one ban trigger-happy way to deal with these things. Otherwise, don't just turn off items, throw the game away and let's play something else, because banning the character, on the Items On/Off analogy, is that poor, and that extreme.

(And as much as I would love to rant about all the characters with braindead ledge covering options, again, it's for the stubborn anti-RNG people. Otherwise, Hero should have been safe by now due to his tourney results).


P.S. Not to start an argument, but Bayonetta had way more problems than a single special move. Witch Time was crazy broken too. And you could wall almost everyone's recoveries with just Nair which lasted as long as you wanted to pretty much, etc.

 

[Wigglerman]

Of course I'm anti-ban. I actually have fingers and a brain that allow me to react to Hero's moves and allow me to pressure him.
There's only so much he can cast from the other side of the screen where I can't do something about it (like buffs).
And the ones from up close, the only one that shouldn't be shielded has about as many start frames as a Falcon Punch if not more, and can be interrupted.

But this rant and question is directed at the people who are out there to ban the whole package, just because of the new made up rule that there's such a thing as "too much RNG" and everything that followed.


So yeah, I'm on board the anti-ban train. But I'd be extremely disgusted if Hero does get banned, and we didn't even consider a middle ground. Because everything has to be in extremes.

But yeah, on the grounds of banning Hero to "not repeat the mistakes of the past". Then... let's not? There's more than one ban trigger-happy way to deal with these things. Otherwise, don't just turn off items, throw the game away and let's play something else, because banning the character, on the Items On/Off analogy, is that poor, and that extreme.

(And as much as I would love to rant about all the characters with braindead ledge covering options, again, it's for the stubborn anti-RNG people. Otherwise, Hero should have been safe by now due to his tourney results).


P.S. Not to start an argument, but Bayonetta had way more problems than a single special move. Witch Time was crazy broken too. And you could wall almost everyone's recoveries with just Nair which lasted as long as you wanted to pretty much, etc.

Oh for sure, Bayo had other issues for sure but her kick ladders were USUALLY the biggest complaint due to how easily she killed the entire roster off a single combo or two. Witch Time was usually the second REEEEEEE moment (Myself included). I typically use her kick as the most obvious example as it's often what annoys people most and was her most consistent tool.

I just wish the scene would think and stop reacting. The fact the ban cries happened just from the trailer alone says so much about the state of the community. I don't often see this kind of flailing in other communities and it really sucks it happens here almost ALL the time. I was ashamed to be a part of the tournament just a day after Hero was released in my area because of how abysmally whinny everyone was (One of which was the best player in our area who Bayo'd his way through Smash 4, which just came off as hypocritical). It was painful to be there.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Does the Smash Community even have a clear system in place for how we ban things, or does it just depend on the whims of TOs? Legitimate question, I don't actually know.

 

[Wigglerman]

Does the Smash Community even have a clear system in place for how we ban things, or does it just depend on the whims of TOs? Legitimate question, I don't actually know.

I believe there IS some sort of criteria, but in the end it really boils down to TOs. If a major bans something, like a domino effect everyone else follows suit in order to remain 'cohesive' and consistent among the community as a whole.

I'll admit if there is criteria, I don't know what that entails. I'd love to know, though.

 

[lordvaati]

By Hero's very design he is a character that has to be treated differently. The Mii Fighter softbans in Sm4sh were among my least favored things(especially the moveset restrictions) but I did understand a bit of the reasons why: the variable sizes/weights and potential matchup unfamiliarity due to them being unusable online were true issues. Much like then Hero too has problems that go to external levels that even expand from the confines of the game and affects the players themselves in a way that we have not really seen before. Mediocre frame data and having the worst grab in the game is irrelevant to the real topic of how by his design the Hero has an effect on the tournament environment. This FB meme pic sums it up best IMO

 

[boysilver400]

RK made a video about the whole Hero debate, mostly talking about some the arguments both sides offer. I think he proposed a pretty reasonable solution.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

RK made a video about the whole Hero debate, mostly talking about some the arguments both sides offer. I think he proposed a pretty reasonable solution.

I'm sorry, but who is this guy? How important is he to the competitive community to get TOs to look at this in that way? His opinion isn't gone for being a nobody, but I need more context on him and why it's here. Because then we could get complete randoms to the competitive scene in terms of videos and it won't mean anything.

 

[boysilver400]

I'm sorry, but who is this guy? How important is he to the competitive community to get TOs to look at this in that way? His opinion isn't gone for being a nobody, but I need more context on him and why it's here. Because then we could get complete randoms to the competitive scene in terms of videos and it won't mean anything.

RK is a pretty decent Kirby player who posts here sometimes, including in this thread. He got close to top 128 at EVO and goes to Xanadu tournaments frequently, so even though he’s not a top player, he isn’t a nobody.

 

[MASTER719]

Last time I checked, were not banned, so Hero should be fine.

Then again, this community banned Miis in Smash 4 for no good reason, who knows.

They were banned because ofnl custom-moves

 

[1FC0]

I don't think he should be banned, but I seriously hope he gets some nerfs in the future.

Also, I really enjoy that since this whole "Ban Hero!" thing started, people bring as to show that Hero is totally ok as it is.
Like, really? Have these people never played as Game & Watch? Judgement is a real gamble. Failing to get a high number results in punishment in most cases. The effects it inflicts are not really that good, and you can even deal damage to yourself. Hero, on the other hand, can reroll the menu as many times as he wants. The commands are inmensely more useful that anything from Judgement. The MP is the only thing that prevent abusing the moves, but even then, it can recover real fast (if you're good). And how could I forget, the good old "get rewarded because yes" critical attacks.

Yep, they're the same.

Your arguments support the stance that Hero should stay the same but your conclusion is that Hero should be nerfed. I guess it's because you think Hero is problematic for being OP while actually the worst problem of Hero is his randomness (though I do not think it's actually a problem). Adding a random punishment to Hero for hitting a Smash would increase randomness. Making Hero unable to reroll his menu to fish for commands would also increase randomness. Both your Hero "problems" are actually good things about Hero.

 

[1FC0]

https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sqvsvl

magic burst edgeguards, unblockable kamikazees or psych up critical shield breaks are frequently unavoidable

Hero's Smashes are unavoidable? They're about the hardest Smashes to hit.

Also, you say people are paranoid that they might die from Thwack at 0% in grand finals, but it has happened. I'd be rightfully salty if this happened to me, and trying to dismiss concerns by lumping it in the same category as Kirbycide or spiking with Chrom's Up-B is disingenuous.

I've seen people lose to double Misfire in a row. Know how big that chance is? Exactly as big as Thwack killing at 0%: 1%. Ban Luigi?

 

[Sebas22]

So.... I kinda got over the whole Hero thing a long time ago (you're replying an old comment after all), but i'm still going to answer some of your points.

Your arguments support the stance that Hero should stay the same but your conclusion is that Hero should be nerfed.

What arguments? I clearly said "Don't ban him, but please Nintendo nerf him". All the rest was me trying to explain how stupid is comparing Hero's RNG to G&W's RNG. Which it is.

I guess it's because you think Hero is problematic for being OP

Yes. Because he is OP. I should know, since I play him from time to time and is ultra easy to destroy people with this character.

while actually the worst problem of Hero is his randomness (though I do not think it's actually a problem). Adding a random punishment to Hero for hitting a Smash would increase randomness. Making Hero unable to reroll his menu to fish for commands would also increase randomness. Both your Hero "problems" are actually good things about Hero.

I don't want to sound disrespectful, but I laughed at this part. So what you're saying is "If Hero had both good and bad RNG effects, it would be extra bad for everyone, that is too much randomness!" No, it actually adds more balance to the broken character. But the thing that is funny to me, is that I never said anything about a reverse critical hit or making Hero unable to reroll his menu. If you want my opinion on how to make him more balanced, here it is:
- Rerolling the menu now costs mana. I'm not sure how much should it cost, but the point is, you can't abuse Down+B anymore.
- Either normal attacks now recover less mana or special attacks like Kafrizz and Kazap deal less damage/knockback.
- And the most important, critical hits now have absolutely no effect whatsoever. The sound and the close-up still plays like usual, but that's it. It's just a nod to the games...
Or, if that is too extreme, then lets give every RPG character in the game a critical hit mechanic. That sounds fair, doesn't it?

 

[1FC0]

I don't want to sound disrespectful, but I laughed at this part. So what you're saying is "If Hero had both good and bad RNG effects, it would be extra bad for everyone, that is too much randomness!" No, it actually adds more balance to the broken character.

You think that Hero is so overpowered that the idea of him not actually being an overpowered character is laughable? Well, I guess we'll see. If Hero will be allowed in enough big tournaments and you're right then he will be dominating. I've played with and against him a bit and I do not think that he's that good.

 

[Melonsismyusername]

Last time I checked, were not banned, so Hero should be fine.

Then again, this community banned Miis in Smash 4 for no good reason, who knows.

Comparing previous rng to hero is not a valid counterpoint, nor will it ever be, due to the fact that hero has a higher MAD and simply more rng overall.

 

[Melonsismyusername]

Calling it now, the whole topic of banning Hero because “lol rng” is not going to age well in the near future and we’ll all be laughing at how absurd the notion was in hindsight.

Hero is so fair and so honest it hurts. Yeah, he has a random factor to him, but if it didn’t he’d be the worst sword character in the game or at the very least a low tier. All of his normals are laggy and unsafe on shield, he loses hard to pressure and gets super punished for pressing a button in shield, pulling up menu is unsafe (even if you’re trying to bait them with it), etc., I’d rather him have some RNG to be able tip the game in his favor because without it he’s a heavily underpowered character. I’m fine with his crits because his smashes are hard to land anyways, the opponent has to make a ton of mistakes for any one of those to land; if a crit happens, its deserved because of the amount of out playing it takes to even land a smash with his poor frame data is almost astronomical. Admittedly, OHKOs are taking it a step too far, but you literally see it coming between the menu and Hero’s MP, both of which make him a very honest character. You literally see what he can do before he even does it, and even interrupt a lot of it because it’s so slow.

If Hero was a character that had a low skill ceiling or had amazing frame data, I can see the argument for banning him. But he doesn’t have either. You’re not going to see randy mc randerson suddenly cheese out good players because of RNG, because Hero is just too fair of a character overall.



Tldr: Hero’s RNG is balanced out by the fact that the rest of him kind of sucks so far.

Saying verything else sucks is just more reason to ban him, because it makes you rely on rng to play the game, which would be fine if the MAD wasnt so high.

 

[Coolboy]

after fighting multiple times against different Heroes with different GSP scores and skill i can honestly say..Hero is to RNG and just so annoying and NOT fun to play against.
while i play just online against him i already can't stand playing against him..the damage of these special moves are just rediculous and the urge to teabag when winning from a Hero is big but i don't do it though haha

i can only imagine how competitive players can really dislike him for the RNG and the rediculous damage you receive from it.

 

[VodkaHaze]

Comparing previous rng to hero is not a valid counterpoint, nor will it ever be, due to the fact that hero has a higher MAD and simply more rng overall.

I think the issue isn't how much RNG Hero has, but how much his RNG affects gameplay. I still maintain it's an issue because whenever I see people play Hero they do use Command Selection a fair bit.

Something I remember from Brawl and Smash 4 is trying to ban characters like MK and Bayonetta was difficult because they were broken. You had to show they broke the meta, but by the time you could show it, banning MK or Bayonetta meant many top players had to give up their mains. Since Hero's been out, I've consistently seen him ranked as mid-tier due to his randomness and other faults. I think banning one mid-tier in a game with over 70 characters would go down smoother than banning the best character in Brawl.

At the very least, allowing Hero but banning his down-B is the only compromise I can see between the two camps. His RNG isn't as pervasive, no language barrier, and Hero mains can still play the character. Might be hard to enforce though.

 

[REZERO]

So, I do think hero is a decent character but I feel like people can't seem to grasp his neutral game and spend to much time trying to down b at the wrong times. People don't understand his mechanics well or what skills he has that use super armor.

People have yet to familiarize with him and don't take advantage of his fast projectiles (sizzle, bang, etc). Then on top of that you dont see many people taking advantage of his side special or hatchetman which both have super armor.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

So, I do think hero is a decent character but I feel like people can't seem to grasp his neutral game and spend to much time trying to down b at the wrong times. People don't understand his mechanics well or what skills he has that use super armor.

People have yet to familiarize with him and don't take advantage of his fast projectiles (sizzle, bang, etc). Then on top of that you dont see many people taking advantage of his side special or hatchetman which both have super armor.

Hatchet man does not have super armor.