Should Hero be treated differently because this is a fighter?

Modesty

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#1
I'm not gonna post some impassioned speech saying Hero needs to be banned. It's early and I don't really know. That said it seems like there is a different attitude now that it's a character based around rng. Like if it was a new stage it would just be banned. It seems to me hero's entire kit competitively will be based around down b and crits, the rest of him is a slow average swordsman. I think this is new territory for competitive smash because while yeah there have been discussion of banning a character for being too strong (though there's never been a full ban), this is a case where it's the random factor of the move set alone regardless of how good the character is. So my question isn't should Hero be banned, it's should the fact that he is a fighter weigh into the debate?
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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#2
No, he shouldn't treated differently.

And I doubt he is ban-worthy because he relies too much on RNG, extremely powerful RNG for sure, but that same quality makes him inconstant. It's hilarious to kill someone at very low percentages with a Whack/Twach but pulling that off at a higher levels of play is quite difficult.

Unless someone picks him right now and starts cheesing everyone at tourneys left and right, we'll have to see how he does later and if this needs to be considered.
 

NobleClamtasm

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#3
Hero's RNG gimmick doesn't change the fact that he has terrible neutral and disadvantage state. His MP meter means that it's impossible to play keepaway as he will eventually be forced to approach. This will also limit his recovery options, and even then his recovery is exploitable as all hell. How do you beat Hero? Play your neutral game well. Limit his opportunities to use RNG. If you can't manage that, camp him out and drain his MP. Force him to swing around that sluggish sword. I can tell you for certain that there is no way Hero will be top tier solely due to the fact that good players will not want to solo-main such an inconsistent character.
 

Zachmac

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#4
I think this post I made in the CCI thread sums up my stance pretty well.
I guess I just don't see Hero's RNG as being fundamentally more dishonest compared, say, going for random Ganondorf F-smash "reads" out of the blue. Either way you can clutch a game away from a better player if you're lucky but you're not going to be able to be consistent with it unless you're really smart with how you do it.

I suppose there is a case that a Ganondorf F-smash is a player interaction that depends on Ganon's for slipping up, but Hero's needs breathing room and a decently full mana gauge to fish for a down b as well. If you're offstage and he has enough mana to kill you at 40% with a mana burst it might still be "dishonest" but he still had to something to find himself in that position in the first place.

It's not ideal but its not quite the same as random item spawns that can happen anywhere in a match regardless of how either player is playing.

I also think too many people are seeing him as Down Special: The Character. That may be his main draw but his aerials, tilts and specials are really important to his gameplan as well and aren't dependant on RNG.
Maybe my history to competitive Pokemon has desensitized me to RNG mevhanics a tad bit, but I think Hero's a neat character with a deceptive learning curve. I like what he adds improv style gameplay that he bring to the game.
 

VodkaHaze

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#7
He should be banned because so much of his moveset revolves around RNG. Critical hits on his smash attacks are random, what moves you can use when you use down-B are random, and the effects of some of those moves such as Hocus Pocus or Thwack are also random. At points matches with him feel like a game of Mario Party.

And comparisons to characters who do have RNG is just drawing an invisible line because these characters' movesets aren't revolving around luck on a scale like Hero's. Also, we do ban RNG, which is why items and stage hazards are banned. Not to mention do we really want tournament matches with money on the line where Hero wins because he got Magic Burst while edgeguarding? Or he killed at 40% with a critical hit Usmash? Or killed at low % with Thwack? At that point, it doesn't feel like the better player won, but the player with the better luck won.
 
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link2702

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#8
The argument that other characters with rng elements aren’t banned doesn’t quite work, as they only have it on one move, and it’s (usually, peach/daisy’s turnips are the exception) a very high risk, high reward move. Hero has the rng on all his smashes and his down special.

The fact that so much of his toolkit has devastating rng elements is the problem.

Then of course it doesn’t help that some of the stuff that isn’t rng are still incredibly powerful in their own right. Having a neutral charged special projectile that does damage like a warlock punch and almost as much knockback at lvl 3 is kinda ridiculous considering everything else he has.
 

Arthur97

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#9
Last time I checked, :ultpeach::ultdaisy::ultluigi::ultgnw: were not banned, so Hero should be fine.

Then again, this community banned Miis in Smash 4 for no good reason, who knows.
No, they shouldn't be banned, but that argument isn't very strong. Also, you come off pretty smart alecy. Not great if you want people to actually give heed to what you have to say.
 

GhostM

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#10
Honestly I am pretty stuck on this question since its both sided, and I can understand the reason why people want Hero to be banned, and people who don’t want him banned. It is true that Hero is a character with a huge emphasis on RNG, and a formula like that especially in a competitive scene can be disastrous, which is why rules such as items off and hazards off are put into place to emphasize skill rather than RNG. It is a little concerning that the RNG element isn’t on just one move, like G&W’s hammer, but rather on all of his smash attacks because of the chance of a critical hit. I can understand the concern of many people since Hero has many ways of obtaining early KOs, with critical hits, Thwack and Whack, etc.

On the other hand, I can also understand why some people don’t want him banned. With the RNG element being a large emphasis on Hero, this causes him to be an inconsistent character. You won’t always be able to get an early KO against an opponent. It is true that Hero has RNG, but that RNG will be meaningless if a player doesn’t know how to utilize it properly. Hero has glaring weaknesses which include his slow aerials, bad OOS options, and slowness in terms of his Spell Menu. You can’t move with the menu being out, and the menu closes when you are hit, which requires you to make a quick play to be effective, or else you’ll be vulnerable. I mean just look at this: Down B -> Look at the menu on the bottom of the screen -> Select Option -> Use Spell. This option takes time, and can be difficult to utilize the menu in top play, since you’d have to be quick 99.99% of the time. Not only that but it requires you to read your opponents, since rush down characters such as Joker can easily overwhelm Hero since they can interrupt the menu. With the limited MP Hero has, lower amounts of MP forces one to rush to obtain more MP, and with his glaring weaknesses, it’s difficult for him to compete against rush down characters. I feel like too many people are only paying attention to his Down B being based around RNG, and the random critical hits instead of focusing on his actual weaknesses.

You don’t have to worry too much about Hocus Pocus though, since it has a 5.07% chance of showing up on the menu, which is a rare occurance. You are more likely to use a random spell or receive a bad outcome than getting something good, which hurts its use in competitive play. (Combining both the percentages of random outcome of using spells with bad outcomes in total is 83.84%, greater than the 16.16% chance of receiving a positive outcome.) And Metal Slash is only useful in Hero dittos, so you’ll almost never see it in non ditto matches, unless if it’s used from Hocus Pocus.
 

SDFox

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#11
Honestly,
I'm pretty proud of the community for not flash-banning Hero.

Look at this we get to have a calm and actually useful discussion on something, how about that!
 

Sebas22

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#12
I don't think he should be banned, but I seriously hope he gets some nerfs in the future.

Also, I really enjoy that since this whole "Ban Hero!" thing started, people bring :ultgnw: as to show that Hero is totally ok as it is.
Like, really? Have these people never played as Game & Watch? Judgement is a real gamble. Failing to get a high number results in punishment in most cases. The effects it inflicts are not really that good, and you can even deal damage to yourself. Hero, on the other hand, can reroll the menu as many times as he wants. The commands are inmensely more useful that anything from Judgement. The MP is the only thing that prevent abusing the moves, but even then, it can recover real fast (if you're good). And how could I forget, the good old "get rewarded because yes" critical attacks.

Yep, they're the same. :smirk:
 

Nate1080

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#13
Calling it now, the whole topic of banning Hero because “lol rng” is not going to age well in the near future and we’ll all be laughing at how absurd the notion was in hindsight.

Hero is so fair and so honest it hurts. Yeah, he has a random factor to him, but if it didn’t he’d be the worst sword character in the game or at the very least a low tier. All of his normals are laggy and unsafe on shield, he loses hard to pressure and gets super punished for pressing a button in shield, pulling up menu is unsafe (even if you’re trying to bait them with it), etc., I’d rather him have some RNG to be able tip the game in his favor because without it he’s a heavily underpowered character. I’m fine with his crits because his smashes are hard to land anyways, the opponent has to make a ton of mistakes for any one of those to land; if a crit happens, its deserved because of the amount of out playing it takes to even land a smash with his poor frame data is almost astronomical. Admittedly, OHKOs are taking it a step too far, but you literally see it coming between the menu and Hero’s MP, both of which make him a very honest character. You literally see what he can do before he even does it, and even interrupt a lot of it because it’s so slow.

If Hero was a character that had a low skill ceiling or had amazing frame data, I can see the argument for banning him. But he doesn’t have either. You’re not going to see randy mc randerson suddenly cheese out good players because of RNG, because Hero is just too fair of a character overall.



Tldr: Hero’s RNG is balanced out by the fact that the rest of him kind of sucks so far.
 

Call_Me_Red

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#14
Calling it now, the whole topic of banning Hero because “lol rng” is not going to age well in the near future and we’ll all be laughing at how absurd the notion was in hindsight.

Hero is so fair and so honest it hurts. Yeah, he has a random factor to him, but if it didn’t he’d be the worst sword character in the game or at the very least a low tier. All of his normals are laggy and unsafe on shield, he loses hard to pressure and gets super punished for pressing a button in shield, pulling up menu is unsafe (even if you’re trying to bait them with it), etc., I’d rather him have some RNG to be able tip the game in his favor because without it he’s a heavily underpowered character. I’m fine with his crits because his smashes are hard to land anyways, the opponent has to make a ton of mistakes for any one of those to land; if a crit happens, its deserved because of the amount of out playing it takes to even land a smash with his poor frame data is almost astronomical. Admittedly, OHKOs are taking it a step too far, but you literally see it coming between the menu and Hero’s MP, both of which make him a very honest character. You literally see what he can do before he even does it, and even interrupt a lot of it because it’s so slow.

If Hero was a character that had a low skill ceiling or had amazing frame data, I can see the argument for banning him. But he doesn’t have either. You’re not going to see randy mc randerson suddenly cheese out good players because of RNG, because Hero is just too fair of a character overall.



Tldr: Hero’s RNG is balanced out by the fact that the rest of him kind of sucks so far.
Highly, highly disagree. I don't think we should ban Hero, but he definitely needs some nerfs. Mainly his regular specials, but also a few of his down b specials. I've already argued this a million times before, but Neutral B is too fast and strong, Side B covers too many options and is too hard to punish, Up B is fine but the kill set ups are scary. And lastly, Thwack and Spirit Bomb need to be nerfed IMO, killing at literally 0 is not okay, and covering every possible ledge option with a KO move (that can kill at 0) is also not okay. If these things got changed I wouldn't even mind the possibilty of crit smash attacks killing heavies below 30%.
 

Nate1080

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#15
For as fast and as powerful as his neutral and side Bs are, they get stuffed at start up easily and don’t work on players that know how to press shield or actually pressure Hero. These are fine considering his normal attacks suck.

I agree that Thwack needs a nerf of some kind. Magic Burst needs a knockback nerf.

Okay he crits, so what? Have you actually played a game or so with his Smashes? They suck; they’re slow, neg on shield and barely have range for a sword character. They’re pretty hard to connect with, if you’re not getting it: Hero loses hard to shield (among a whole host of other things), and people shield Hero a lot if you’ve haven’t noticed. I’d rather them have an X-factor than not.


While some tweaks are needed, I agree with that, people seem to gloss over the fact that his regular attacks are trash and considering that (as well as the fact that he’s paid DLC), powerful spells are needed to make him a worthwhile character. He needs far fewer nerfs than most think, and if people actually played games with him instead of crying about him and watching Twitter/YouTube set ups, you’d immediately understand that.

Hero has been out for less than a week and people are already crying foul without actually considering his entire kit.
 
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Rizen

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#16
The fact he's a fighter shouldn't be important but it is. Like the OP said "if this was a stage it would be banned". Fighters for any reason are notoriously hard to ban, look at :metaknight:.
 

Wigglerman

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#17
I'm not going to keep going into overall detail on this character each time I see a thread because it's exhausting to keep going over the same things. Hero doesn't need banning. He has massive, undeniable weaknesses and is, imo, hardly going to make much of a splash in the competitive 1v1. His niche will likely be found in doubles where he MAY find a ban in the long run if he proves to be TOO troublesome (I see double Hero teams being a thing for a while). This 'the world is ending due to rng' hysteria is way overblown in my eyes. I just don't see this character blowing up the tournament scene in a major way. I don't think even MkLeo is going to make this character look THAT good when his weaknesses are just too vast.
 

drilldrive

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#18
I see this as a simple issue: Hero should be banned for being based in randomness. It doesn't matter if Hero is top-tier or bottom-tier (I personally estimate low- to mid-tier), as he as it stands has the potential to shake tournaments in the first couple matches. Even if bottom-tier, nobody would seriously play him, but imagine if in Smashcon just now Leffen lost to a nobody playing Hero in the first couple matches. Would be marked a false tournament, and would potentially kill advertising interest in Smash. And every other character with RNG right now doesn't even theoretically claim such a title, and generally run stable in tournaments.
As said above, if instead we got a new stage, item, or ruleset modification we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Point is Hero's aim is antithetical to competitive play and would only hurt the scene.
 
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Ryu Myuutsu

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#19
I see this as a simple issue: Hero should be banned for being based in randomness. It doesn't matter if Hero is top-tier or bottom-tier (I personally estimate low- to mid-tier), as he as it stands has the potential to shake tournaments in the first couple matches. Even if bottom-tier, nobody would seriously play him, but imagine if in Smashcon just now Leffen lost to a nobody playing Hero in the first couple matches. Would be marked a false tournament, and would potentially kill advertising interest in Smash. And every other character with RNG right now doesn't even theoretically claim such a title, and generally run stable in tournaments.
As said above, if instead we got a new stage, item, or ruleset modification we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Point is Hero's aim is antithetical to competitive play and would only hurt the scene.
The fact that he uses RNG isn't enough of a reason for banning him. Not all RNG is degenerate. Most of what Hero throws at you is reactable.

And you are suggesting a ban based on a completely hypothetical scenario that is very unlikely to happen. If Leffen and a nobody face off in a tournament, I know already who will win: the better player. Hero's RNG kit isn't enough to carry someone and stumble their way to victory on a tournament.

People ought to stop conjuring doomsday scenarios where Hero comes in and "kills" the Smash scene. You have no data at the moment to support those claims and most people crying for a ban have little match up experience. The character has no tournament results as of now so we have to wait to see what a good player can do with him. However, I will confidently predict that in the near future, Hero isn't going to hurt the competitive scene in the way people state he will, and they will end up feeling foolish for even bringing up the prospect of banning him in the first place.
 
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drilldrive

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#20
The fact that he uses RNG isn't enough of a reason for banning him. Not all RNG is degenerate. Most of what Hero throws at you is reactable.

And you are suggesting a ban based on a completely hypothetical scenario that is very unlikely to happen. If Leffen and a nobody face off in a tournament, I know already who will win: the better player. Hero's RNG kit isn't enough to carry someone and stumble their way to victory on a tournament.

People ought to stop conjuring doomsday scenarios where Hero comes in and "kills" the Smash scene. You have no data at the moment to support those claims and most people crying for a ban have little match up experience. The character has no tournament results as of now so we have to wait to see what a good player can do with him. However, I will confidently predict that in the near future, Hero isn't going to hurt the competitive scene in the way people state he will, and they will end up feeling foolish for even bringing up the prospect of banning him in the first place.
That I have no data for support is a fair point, and if Hero ends up not being banned time will tell if my description would ever pan out. I do want to make clear that I am myself not "crying for a ban": I do not see much if any change in the meta owing to Hero, and I do like playing him in non-competitive play. But the basis of the character is anti-competitive, and as we do not allow items, stage hazards, or other loose aspects of gameplay, I see fit to ban Hero on these grounds, to by the least keep Hero on close-monitor until censure is necessary.
 

xzx

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#21
Lmao the smash community. You didn't want to ban Brawl Meta Knight because you got carried hard by that character but want to ban Hero, a bad character, simply because of RNG? LOL

No, he should not be banned. Stop thinking his down-b is the only thing he has/does. Yes, at low-level play maybe, but at high-level play? Lol no. His side-b and neutral-b are way better and more consistent than his random down-b and are kept in check by his MP.

Arsene Joker robs more stocks than Hero ever will and Smash 4 Cloud was so ridiculous a worse player could actually win over a better player...

Yes, RNG sucks and I wish he didn't have random crits on his smash attacks, but if a character relies on RNG to win then that character is bad lol. (His other moves are unsafe and pretty lackluster if you ask me.)

Have a nice day, people! =^)
 

Hydreigonfan01

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#22
As of August 14th Hero is banned at competitive events run by SASC.
After deliberation and plenty of discussion we have concluded that Hero’s design as a character is fundamentally dependant on randomness to the point that it is not reasonable in a competitive environment.

RNG permeates every element of Hero's design, from spell selection to random critical hits and hocus pocus effects. While randomness has to varying degrees always been present in competitive games and other Smash games, Hero is so dependent on randomness that it cannot be 'played around' or accounted for in competitive play. The argument is similar to the reason why items are banned in competitive play.

Additionally, even other random effects in the game, such as G&W's Hammer or Peach's turnips, still require the player to connect with the move. Although it is not a central issue, many of Hero's random tools, such as magic burst edgeguards, unblockable kamikazees or psych up critical shield breaks are frequently unavoidable and decide whole stocks. Random kill power and mobility buffs as well as free Zoom recoveries have no counterplay and can significantly effect the outcome of a match.

We want to emphasise that this ban is not because hero is too strong, but because he is anti-competitive. We believe that tournaments are meant to provide an opportunity for players to demonstrate their skill and that, as a general rule, the player who plays more skilfully should emerge victorious. Hero's design has a very strong potential to de-emphasise player skill which isn’t fair for those who work hard to improve their abilities for competition.
https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sqvsvl
 

Predatoria

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#23
I just don't see Hero's RNG elements being enough to trounce skillful play.

All of his RNG elements can be avoided by the opponent. Even his "one hit KO" options are very easy to see coming. It's not like has an automatic "I Win" button he can press that just kills his opponent without them being able to do anything to avoid the situation.

I cannot imagine a scenario where a Hero player of inferior skill comes in, goes through pools and wins sets carried by RNG, goes up the ladder, and ultimately causes upsets in a tournament due to getting "lucky" with Thwack, a side smash crit, and happens to be blessed with magic bomb during a ledge guard.

Yes, these things happen, but a better player is going to lose a stock, come back, and continue destroying them anyways. Actually, a better player is less likely to be put into disadvantage against Hero as frequently, is less likely to open themself up to be hit by a side smash as frequently, and is less likely to, in general, grant windows of opportunity for Hero to roll some dice and get lucky with crits or menu options.

Across the entire duration of a full set of games, I just don't see that level of RNG happening.

Many people are also forgetting many other sources of "RNG" that are present at many levels of play, including the ultra-competitive, for all Smash characters. Two framing ledges, for example. Even at the highest levels of play, players do not regularly succeed with two-framing attempts. Missed techs, especially up against the underside of a stage. Many top tier players fail these all the time. They'll try, and ultimately have a rather low success rate when it really counts. These two things could be considered "RNG where skill improves your odds." A better player may perform a life saving tech 60% of the time, whereas a poor player may do it 5% of the time. Either way, there is some luck still involved here, and that's for all of Smash. The timing windows are too precise for even the best player to succeed at a 100% rate, so you try your best, attempt the input, and hope your insufficiently precise timing happens to land on the window it needs to be to see the desired outcome. Yes, this is "Luck," and it's everywhere. A better player will also avoid situations where they would need to perform a life saving tech more frequently, as they're less likely to be in disadvantage off-stage against a poorer player in the first place.

Another example is reads after tech chases. You think you have a good read on what your opponent may do. You prepare for them to choose that option. They seem to favor rolling away from you after failed techs. You kill them because they did it again, but what if they decided to get up attack? You can never be totally sure what your opponent may do, and, to some extent, trying to read an opponents options and punish them for it is a level of RNG due to uncertainty. The ultimate deciding factor in your success here is outside of your control, no matter how strong a read you think you have. You need to get "lucky," Hero or no Hero.

I've fought a ton of Heros so far online, and it does not feel unfair. Sure, an occasional Thwack killing you at 30 can be rage-inducing, but it isn't determining the overall victor across a string of stocks, matches, or sets.

People who are stating Hero needs to be banned are way over-reacting to this entire situation and need to look at the game overall and realize there is already a lot of RNG in Smash.
 
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drilldrive

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#24
I just don't see Hero's RNG elements being enough to trounce skillful play.

All of his RNG elements can be avoided by the opponent. Even his "one hit KO" options are very easy to see coming. It's not like has an automatic "I Win" button he can press that just kills his opponent without them being able to do anything to avoid the situation.

I cannot imagine a scenario where a Hero player of inferior skill comes in, goes through pools and wins sets carried by RNG, goes up the ladder, and ultimately causes upsets in a tournament due to getting "lucky" with Thwack, a side smash crit, and happens to be blessed with magic bomb during a ledge guard.

Yes, these things happen, but a better player is going to lose a stock, come back, and continue destroying them anyways. Actually, a better player is less likely to be put into disadvantage against Hero as frequently, is less likely to open themself up to be hit by a side smash as frequently, and is less likely to, in general, grant windows of opportunity for Hero to roll some dice and get lucky with crits or menu options.

Across the entire duration of a full set of games, I just don't see that level of RNG happening.

Many people are also forgetting many other sources of "RNG" that are present at many levels of play, including the ultra-competitive, for all Smash characters. Two framing ledges, for example. Even at the highest levels of play, players do not regularly succeed with two-framing attempts. Missed techs, especially up against the underside of a stage. Many top tier players fail these all the time. They'll try, and ultimately have a rather low success rate when it really counts. These two things could be considered "RNG where skill improves your odds." A better player may perform a life saving tech 60% of the time, whereas a poor player may do it 5% of the time. Either way, there is some luck still involved here, and that's for all of Smash. The timing windows are too precise for even the best player to succeed at a 100% rate, so you try your best, attempt the input, and hope your insufficiently precise timing happens to land on the window it needs to be to see the desired outcome. Yes, this is "Luck," and it's everywhere. A better player will also avoid situations where they would need to perform a life saving tech more frequently, as they're less likely to be in disadvantage off-stage against a poorer player in the first place.

Another example is reads after tech chases. You think you have a good read on what your opponent may do. You prepare for them to choose that option. They seem to favor rolling away from you after failed techs. You kill them because they did it again, but what if they decided to get up attack? You can never be totally sure what your opponent may do, and, to some extent, trying to read an opponents options and punish them for it is a level of RNG due to uncertainty. The ultimate deciding factor in your success here is outside of your control, no matter how strong a read you think you have. You need to get "lucky," Hero or no Hero.

I've fought a ton of Heros so far online, and it does not feel unfair. Sure, an occasional Thwack killing you at 30 can be rage-inducing, but it isn't determining the overall victor across a string of stocks, matches, or sets.

People who are stating Hero needs to be banned are way over-reacting to this entire situation and need to look at the game overall and realize there is already a lot of RNG in Smash.
Great, a well-reasoned argument. Now tell me that same argument, only whenever you say "Hero", you write "soccer ball", as in the item. Nobody would seriously take down a giant if we allowed soccer-balls, even when they drop on the stage randomly. Or consider if we allowed food in tournaments. Wouldn't make more than a slight difference in outcome, but surely would loosen the feel of the game as a result. And that is a key point: 2-frames and wall-techs aren't able to be disabled or modified in the rule-set, and if there was a "no-RNG" rule competitive play would jump at the opportunity to use it. Why the hesitation to do so with Hero? If possible, always seek to tighten competitive play, not to give slack in the brackets.
Also, you should be clear to distinguish between "RNG" and "luck". Remember that very well-practiced players can 2-frame and tech nearly every time, provided the opponent is playing linearly and has obvious move choices. These moves are deterministic in output by the player, and it is up to the opponent to shake them out of sync.
 
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Avokha

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#25
Gonna repost something I said in the CCI thread;
Something I'd like to point out regarding hero is the mindgames that the menu can enable. Once the menu is open and the 4 options are available for both players to see, the RNG effectively ends there (unless hocus pocus rears its head lol). Imagine this scenario:

Fox vs hero on FD
Fox is standing by the ledge, hero is over halfway across the stage
Hero opens the menu at near full MP and gets Magic Burst, Sizzle, Oomph, and Bounce and hovers the cursor over burst
This opens up a scenario in which both players can make a read against one another;
The fox player can read Magic Burst and approach and shield it, read sizzle and reflect it, cover both options with shield, or call the magic burst bluff and make an aerial approach to punish a different option. Should the fox stay still, hero can cast sizzle hoping to catch fox off guard (at the risk of it being reflected back for massive damage), or opt for either of his 2 buff spells for free. Alternatively, hero can drop the menu altogether and approach.

Just something to think about.
I think it's important that we consider not just how much RNG hero relies on, but just how said rng affects mus and gameplay in general.
 

Wigglerman

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#27
Gonna repost something I said in the CCI thread;

I think it's important that we consider not just how much RNG hero relies on, but just how said rng affects mus and gameplay in general.
Ha, that last line makes me laugh. Hero? Approach? How? He can't do that. Especially against Fox. I also struggle to think of a reasonable scenario where Hero got to the far end of the stage and still had time to open his menu to initiate this 'read mini game', since Fox should be ALL OVER Hero due to his poor speed. XD But regardless, Hero is bad. He's fun, but bad. He could be optimized but he isn't going to be sweeping tournaments for a long, long time. This character is going to require SO much extensive practice before he can be seen as a credible threat.

Threw this in here because I felt the ban - and the reasons given - were relevant to this thread.
Last line in that "Hero's design has a very strong potential to de-emphasise player skill which isn’t fair for those who work hard to improve their abilities for competition." is crap. We've already discussed that his RNG isn't enough to topple better players due to how unreliable RNG is coupled with how terrible Hero's kit, as a whole, is (Frame data especially). And as I said in my prior post, anyone who actually trains themselves to play this character at a level to compete with the upper 'gods' of Smash deserve their wins because of how much work they'd have to put into Hero to even get him on the radar as a true threat.
 
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Avokha

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#28
Ha, that last line makes me laugh. Hero? Approach? How? He can't do that. Especially against Fox. I also struggle to think of a reasonable scenario where Hero got to the far end of the stage and still had time to open his menu to initiate this 'read mini game', since Fox should be ALL OVER Hero due to his poor speed. XD But regardless, Hero is bad. He's fun, but bad. He could be optimized but he isn't going to be sweeping tournaments for a long, long time. This character is going to require SO much extensive practice before he can be seen as a credible threat.



Last line in that "Hero's design has a very strong potential to de-emphasise player skill which isn’t fair for those who work hard to improve their abilities for competition." is crap. We've already discussed that his RNG isn't enough to topple better players due to how unreliable RNG is coupled with how terrible Hero's kit, as a whole, is (Frame data especially). And as I said in my prior post, anyone who actually trains themselves to play this character at a level to compete with the upper 'gods' of Smash deserve their wins because of how much work they'd have to put into Hero to even get him on the radar as a true threat.
I mean ok, but I'm just saying it's something that hero is able to attempt.

Not to mention that was not at all the point I was trying to make xD
 

drilldrive

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#29
Threw this in here because I felt the ban - and the reasons given - were relevant to this thread.
Agree with this entire announcement save the last line. The last line isn't even congruent with the rest of the announcement, as in the third paragraph it claims such issues are "not a central issue", yet by ending with such claims sure makes it sound like they are.
 
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#30
Samsora literally got 3 stitches, a bomb, and a Mr. Saturn doing his Top 8 at SmashCon. Any amount of RNG can change the outcome of a match regardless. You don't need RNG to happen every stock to take a match from someone, Are people saying that any RNG must be banned? Then we have to ban Peach/Game and Watch/Luigi too by this very criteria. If people are serious about banning him, then you need to precisely decide on what your're problem is? A peach can very easily pull a bomb/stitch and win a match because of it and she could have barely plucked turnips at all. A win or a loss is still a win or a loss regardless of how it happened. A 3-2 nail-bitter will still have the same outcome of someone sweeping 3-0 in bracket. ANY amount of RNG can change the outcome of a match, So should we ban ALL RNG because the outcome of matches are affected?
 

Zachmac

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#31
Let me ask you this: Can you list/visualize in your head the tilts, smashes, aerials, and special moves of all the characters? If you load into a game against say, an unpopular character like Plant, do you think to yourself, "Oh, I forgot what his side B is..." I would say all players can do this - I believe this is the base line knowledge. Even if you were to mix up a few specials by assignment, you would know the complete set of moves.

It was nearly impossible to memorize that with Smash 4 customs if you didn't request. It would be very hard to do this without the Mii fighter request right now.

Do you have memorized all of the variance that the Mii Fighters can have for all their specials?

Could you list, without looking at a guide, from memory, all the names of Hero's down B skills and what they do? Can you rank the speeds of the projectiles? Do you know which ones can kill, and which ones cannot at any given percent?
(Moving threads so I don't get shot by Thinkaman).

Okay I'll admit it, I don't have all of the Mii Fighter's specials or Hero's down b variants memorized yet. But the way I see it that's on me, and I guarantee you that if I was really determined to memorize all of Hero's down specials I could do it in under a week. There's a lot but it's not an absurd amount.
 
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boysilver400

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#33
The only reason I could possibly justify Hero being banned is the language barrier. My biggest issue with the Australian ban is that it happened in just 2 weeks and he's literally only been in 1 supermajor. That's just flat out ridiculous to me. We saw in SSC2019 with the Salem/Leffen match that the RNG didn't even have that much impact. Hell, Salem could've beaten Leffen if he stayed Snake.

Also I saw on twitter that someone apparently beat MkLeo(person didn't specify whether he took the set or not) with Hero RNG? If this is true, it didn't matter because MkLeo still won the tournament.

He may not have been specifically meant to be competitive, since Smash also has party game elements, but this hysteria reminds me of people who were screaming for a :ultmetaknight: ban because of twitter combos and people saying that :ultkirby: and :ultlittlemac:weren't meant to be competitive because they're bad. I'm bringing these up because they were all knee-jerk assumptions made after less than a month of the game's release. Kirby and Mac may be agreed to be low tier, but Meta Knight is now seen as mid tier at best. My point is that we should wait longer than just 2 damn weeks before giving hero the ban hammer.
 

|RK|

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#34
FGC dealing with Faust (Guilty Gear) and Phoenix Wright (UMvC3) but pockets of the Smash community not dealing with Hero is a riot, honestly.
Funny thing is that people were saying they weren't comparable... But now FGC players are making the comparison themselves.

Anyways, I personally believe that RNG isn't inherently anti-competitive. There are a lot of lucky situations and flukes in everything. The way you deal with it, however, is awareness and precision.

If I'm worried about Hero's crit fsmashes, I will make it a point to avoid fsmash. If my opponents are worried about my dtilt tripping, they will avoid my dtilt.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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#35
I saw on twitter that someone apparently beat MkLeo(person didn't specify whether he took the set or not) with Hero RNG? If this is true, it didn't matter because MkLeo still won the tournament.
He couldn't have taken the set because MKLeo only fell in Losers Bracket in Top 8 in Winners semi-finals.
 

Vycoul

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#37
After the s*** the Smash community has put up with in the past (Brawl Meta Knight, Sm4sh Bayonetta) this really, really rubs me the wrong way. (yes, I know this is "not about power-level" blah blah)
I can only hope SA's foolish decision stays... detained there. My condolences to the levelheaded people there who have to put up with this.
 
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Ryu Myuutsu

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#38
Great, a well-reasoned argument. Now tell me that same argument, only whenever you say "Hero", you write "soccer ball", as in the item. Nobody would seriously take down a giant if we allowed soccer-balls, even when they drop on the stage randomly. Or consider if we allowed food in tournaments. Wouldn't make more than a slight difference in outcome, but surely would loosen the feel of the game as a result. And that is a key point: 2-frames and wall-techs aren't able to be disabled or modified in the rule-set, and if there was a "no-RNG" rule competitive play would jump at the opportunity to use it. Why the hesitation to do so with Hero? If possible, always seek to tighten competitive play, not to give slack in the brackets.
Also, you should be clear to distinguish between "RNG" and "luck". Remember that very well-practiced players can 2-frame and tech nearly every time, provided the opponent is playing linearly and has obvious move choices. These moves are deterministic in output by the player, and it is up to the opponent to shake them out of sync.
There's some important information that you are omitting with your post. Hero's RNG isn't completely comparable with item RNG.

Items are degenerate for the competitive scene because they can spawn anywhere at any time. If you get a poke ball or assist trophy, you can throw it and get something powerful like Keldeo, Scizor, Zero, Tiki, Sheriff or Alucard. Your opponent then has very little counterplay because they have to contend with two adversaries and some of those characters have large, powerful and hard to avoid hitboxes. If you get a Hammer at close quarters you are almost guaranteed to get a KO. If you get a Heart, you'll heal most of the damage you've received. If you get a flag, you can get an additional stock. If you get a Beam Sword you now have a strong and large disjoint that also serves as a throwable projectile. If you get a Boss Galaga, you can secure a stock is your opponent gets caught on it. And so on. Anyone can get them depending on where they spawned. Those powerful items are bestowed upon players by sheer luck with no skill involved which is why they are not allowed at tournaments.

In the case of stage hazards there are varying degrees. Stages like Wily's Castle aren't legal because they are very intrusive to the gameplay, since the Yellow Devil takes a huge portion of the stage so the fight devolves into players vs the Yellow Devil. Other stages like Halberd are allowed at some places because its hazards are less intrusive and can be easily telegraphed by the players.

With Hero it's another story. While he uses RNG in his Down B, everything he throws at you can be reacted and anticipated by his opponent, unlike random items. You are also not going to see many crits land on neutral or disadvantage; there will only be the occasional Snooze + Smash Attack that nets an early kill but its not going to be a dominant strategy. That's why replacing Hero with Soccer Ball doesn't really work for the argument you propose. You can be conscious of Hero possibly getting the chance to use Whack or Thwack which prepares you for it, but you can't be aware of a random soccer ball suddenly dropping on the field. There's just no way to prepare for that.
 
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#39
With the incomparable amount of RNG he would be worth banning if he was a commonly picked meta centralizing top tier, because then he could really damage the ultimate scene. But right now that's not the case, and I doubt it ever will be, so no need to ban him.
 

VodkaHaze

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#40
With Hero it's another story. While he uses RNG in his Down B, everything he throws at you can be reacted and anticipated by his opponent, unlike random items. You are also not going to see many crits land on neutral or disadvantage; there will only be the occasional Snooze + Smash Attack that nets an early kill but its not going to be a dominant strategy. That's why replacing Hero with Soccer Ball doesn't really work for the argument you propose. You can be conscious of Hero possibly getting the chance to use Whack or Thwack which prepares you for it, but you can't be aware of a random soccer ball suddenly dropping on the field. There's just no way to prepare for that.
This point that Hero's command selection is reactable is a myth. Human reaction time is on average 0.25 seconds for visual stimuli (so about 15 frames). Hero's command selection is active on frame 19. Please also consider that Ultimate has input lag between 6-7 frames. What you're forgetting is the command selection is part of your peripheral vision. So your reaction time will be slower because you now have to bring your attention away from the characters and to the menu. And if the Hero just immediately goes for the first option, and it's say Whack or Snooze which both have 6 frame startup, you had better have pressed shield by frames 18-19. Every frame matters in Smash, especially at higher levels.

Also note that not only can Hero select four commands, but he has more options. He can shield, he can jump, and shield cancel into things like a dash grab or Fsmash. This means you can't react reliably to all his options because you might think he'll go for Snooze (6 frames) so you shield, but he could go for a dash grab (4 frame cancel + 6 frame dash grab = 10 frames) or Hatchet Man (11 frames) and your shield is toast.

TL;DR - If you try reading all of Hero's options, you will lose, especially if you have issues reading (second language, dyslexia, etc.)
 
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