Should Hero be treated differently because this is a fighter?

[REZERO]

Hatchet man does not have super armor.

Yeah my bad.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

Yeah my bad.

As for the rest, it's hard to say a whole community of people aren't using a character right. Hero has a very bad neutral. All of his normal moves are too slow and too unsafe to really get much started. That's why people reply on mana so much.

Hero honestly is a hard character to use. I think people that main him can be insanely good, but there is a steep learning curve.

 

[REZERO]

As for the rest, it's hard to say a whole community of people aren't using a character right. Hero has a very bad neutral. All of his normal moves are too slow and too unsafe to really get much started. That's why people reply on mana so much.

Hero honestly is a hard character to use. I think people that main him can be insanely good, but there is a steep learning curve.

His neutral is kind of bad but people are also greedy when they cast spells using hero. Positioning is a requirement to be good with him.

Sizzle doesn't use much mp and its a pretty good spell. Most of his spells spike making it very easy for him to punish people.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

Most of his spells spike making it very easy for him to punish people.

I'm sorry, what?

EDIT:

Sizzle doesn't use much mp

Also, I'm sorry, what?

 

[REZERO]

I'm sorry, what?

My phrasing is wrong, most of his attacks can kill.

Sizzle, bang, kaboom, magic burst, etc.

He has a strong kit but people don't utilize.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

My phrasing is wrong, most of his attacks can kill.

Sizzle, bang, kaboom, magic burst, etc.

He has a strong kit but people don't utilize.

People don't utilize the moves that are selected at random?

 

[REZERO]

People don't utilize the moves that are selected at random?

Its not that random, they pop up enough that they can be used. I've seen it often enough online. People struggling to select things because they cant make decisions.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

Its not that random, they pop up enough that they can be used. I've seen it often enough online. People struggling to select things because they cant make decisions.

I'm just confused by what you're saying.

1. The moves are random. There is no "not that random". Either they are or they aren't.
2. You say that people use the menu too much, but you also say they don't utilize it enough. I'm confused.
3. It is very hard to have 4 random options pop up on screen and to implement one of them in a useful manner. Of course it can be done, but it takes time to learn how.
4. I'm not sure where you're facing off against these Heroes, but it doesn't sound like it's peak competitive conditions. I can guarantee you that Hero solo mains are more competent than you make them out to be.

EDIT: Sorry, this came off a bit heated. It just really frustrates me when people go online and say how a whole community of players don't know how to play. Especially when the person saying it doesn't even play the character they mention. Just trust me, there are people who can play the character they chose to main.

 

[REZERO]

post

Some specials appear more often than others so its not really random, you have pretty good odds of sizzle, kaboom, or bang appearing in a selection of spells and they're good for zoning in neutral since they're so quick. You're right its not in peak competitive conditions but I'm not saying Hero is bad I'm saying that he has been underwhelming online because people lack the understanding of his character. It is a little early to ban him but the fact that people think hero is strong and people haven't discovered all facets of him means he's probably a little too strong.

 

[Nate1080]

Side B’a super armor comes out pretty late in my experience. I’ve definitely been bodied near the start up of fully charged side B quite a few times.

It’s a pretty unsafe move and definitely for a hard read.

 

[Kokiden]

No.

He hasn't been causing any problems thus far.

 

[BuffThePuff08]

If you pressure him constantly, he'll feel unsafe using his Down-B, which is where most of his punch comes from. However, not all characters can do this.(Like Zelda.) His recovery is fairly straightforward, just hit him as he makes his way back to the stage, whether staying on the stage or edgegaurding him. A Hero may also try to use Zoom if he's low on MP or Up-B isn't working for him. However, Zoom can land in 8 different spots, selected randomly. If you know this, you can try to predict where he's going to land and get a hit. (Just keep in mind Hero can jump out of Zoom.) If you see him charging his Neutral-B or using his Down-B, stay on your guard. A fully charged Neutral-B can be easy to react to if you keep your distance, and many of his Down-B attacks can also be equally reactable. In terms of his Side-B, he'll often use his medium-charged version at low percents, and his fully-charged version at high percents to take your stock. While Hero may be daunting at first, knowing when to play offensive and when to play defensive could win a game. While losing Grand Finals because the dice told you so isn't fun, Hero's weaknesses can be exploited for your own gain, so Hero being banned doesn't seem likely.

 

[SecretAsianMan]

Couple things:
First, if you are getting hit by Kazap Im sorry but thats on you. Its so predictable even if they mix up the charge and you can avoid it by jumping or shieldgrabbing, ect.
Second

If you see him charging his Neutral-B or using his Down-B, stay on your guard. A fully charged Neutral-B can be easy to react to if you keep your distance, and many of his Down-B attacks can also be equally reactable. In terms of his Side-B, he'll often use his medium-charged version at low percents, and his fully-charged version at high percents to take your stock.

What the **** kind of heros you fighting using Kazap and Kafrizz at all. They can and will spam Frizzle, the medium charge one, cuz its godlike. And Kazap is literally a glorified falcon punch, why the hell would they use it either.

Yes, the way you beat hero is to rush him so he cant use down b. But like
Theres just so many people assuming online Menu spam works offline. And it doesnt.

 

[1FC0]

No, he should be treated the same as all other fighters.

 

[Nate1080]

Reading this topic now with literal 2020 hindsight is hilarious. LMFAO

This topic’s existence demonstrated the sheer paranoia and lack of foresight of the Smash community, as well as the unwillingness to actually throughly try something out before outright banning it, unless forced to.


I’m still in disbelief that it took the Smash community more than 5 minutes to figure out that Hero sucks, his “rng” is irrelevant and he was never going to take tournaments by storm or be an actual issue. This topic should’ve never existed.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

Reading this topic now with literal 2020 hindsight is hilarious. LMFAO

This topic’s existence demonstrated the sheer paranoia and lack of foresight of the Smash community, as well as the unwillingness to actually throughly try something out before outright banning it, unless forced to.


I’m still in disbelief that it took the Smash community more than 5 minutes to figure out that Hero sucks, his “rng” is irrelevant and he was never going to take tournaments by storm or be an actual issue. This topic should’ve never existed.

This reply didn’t age well. Akikikusu made waves when he beat Zackray.

 

[1FC0]

Not to mention do we really want tournament matches with money on the line where Hero wins because he got Magic Burst while edgeguarding? Or he killed at 40% with a critical hit Usmash? Or killed at low % with Thwack? At that point, it doesn't feel like the better player won, but the player with the better luck won.

Do we really want people to lose to a misfire? Do we really want a G&W to win by getting 9? Do we really want Peach or Daisy to win through a stit face or Bob-Omb? At that point, it does not seem like the better player won.

The fault in your argument is that the scenario's that you describe all require either skill on Hero's part or insane luck. In the former your argument is irrelevant, in the latter case the risk is acceptable, especially considering that Smash is played with multiple games of multiple stocks. If losing 1 stock to RNG causes you to loase the entire set, then you were probably about equally skilled to your opponent anyway.

Here are the reasons why your examples miss the mark IMO:

• Magic Burst edgeguard: Requires Hero to get advantage, which means that he has to outplay his opponent, and then fish for Magic Burst. Since normally Magic Burst will not appear the first few times, this means that Hero normally has to outplay the opponent to get advantage and then lose that advantage for free, multiple times, before he finally gets the kill. But at that point he deserves the kill for having outplayed the opponent multiple times with minimal reward. And let's not forget that after this Hero will be left with 0 MP.
• Get killed at 40% with CH Usmash: Hero's Usmash is tiny and extremely difficult to land. In fact, even if Usmash had a 100% CH rate then it would still not be overpowered. So in my view the CH system on Usmash in in hero's disadvantage; Hero has 1/8 to do normal balanced damage for such a crappy hitbox and 7/8 to get an extra weak version. Besides, many character can pull stuff like this occasionally. This is not even close to being exclusive to Hero.
• Killed at low % with Thwack: Even when Thwack hits the chance of this happening is very small. That is how Thwack works, the less damage the target has the less chance that he will get KO'ed upon being hit by this move. G&W's Judge is far worse than this as it alwasy has 1/9 chance to do insane knockback upon hit even when the target is at low damage. But even Judge is not even close to being disruptive enough, so clearly neither will Thwack.

 

[1FC0]

1. The moves are random. There is no "not that random". Either they are or they aren't.

Not really. For example, what is more random: a move that has a 50% chance of working one way, and a 50% chance of working another way; or a move having 99.99999999% chance of working one way, and a 0.00000001% chance of working another way?
Basically, the more predictable something is the less random it is.

People don't utilize the moves that are selected at random?

They are not fully random. Do you not know how Command Selection works? First 4 moves are picked and then the player can pick any of those moves for which he has enough MP, or he can cancel Command Selection by shielding or jumping; and of course he can vary in the timing of this.
The only part of that which is random is the picking of the 4 moves, and even that partly depends on player skill because the more often the player invokes the Command Selection the more chance that he has to get what he needs.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

Nobody is complaining about Hero anymore. Besides, most of those users are inactive so your talking to a wall whenever you quote them.