Should Custom Mii's Be Seprated From Fighter Customs?

[Rashyboy05]

No. Just watch Nick Riddle verses Vinnie at evo. Miis are jank and stupid with customs. Plus that's unfair to the rest of the cast. If miis are the only character that get customs thats unfair.I know the only way the miis become viable Is through customs, but its just not fair. Either ban all of them or keep them.

You know who else is "Jank" and "Stupid"? Shiek. Seriously, I fail to see your point as to why Miis shouldn't be allowed to use their other movesets. The game allows you to use Customized Mii in a Customs Off setting and the only "customizable parts" that's turned off are equipment.

Funny that you used EVO, that's a custom tournament, as an argument as to why Miis are "jank" since Nietono has drowned in pools even though he used Mii Brawler and Dapuffster, arguably the best Mii Brawler main, never made it into Top 8 at EVO. So how are they "jank" again? I really want to know.

 

[GeneralLedge]

They're jank because I don't know how to fight them and don't want to learn.

Good players don't need to learn new things. At the top, everything is blissfully stale and predictable. The winner is determined by cold, raw, calculated skill, like it should be.

And that's how I want it to stay, because this is my game. It's fairer that way.

.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

GeneralLedge, I know you're being sarcastic anyway but I'm going to play along.

They're jank because I don't know how to fight them and don't want to learn.

Good players don't need to learn new things. At the top, everything is blissfully stale and predictable. The winner is determined by cold, raw, calculated skill, like it should be.

And that's how I want it to stay, because this is my game. It's fairer that way.

.

- a.k.a. the words of every Brawl Meta Knight who placed in the money.

Now I'm going to stop being silly and instead look at PuffDaddy's ridiculous remarks.

No. Just watch Nick Riddle verses Vinnie at evo. Miis are jank and stupid with customs. Plus that's unfair to the rest of the cast. If miis are the only character that get customs thats unfair.I know the only way the miis become viable Is through customs, but its just not fair. Either ban all of them or keep them.

We need to quit using 'jank' as a word for 'things I do not understand because I am too lazy to learn.'

This idea of 'unfair' is also silly. You know who else is unfair? Rosalina with her puppet. Mac with his armored smashes. Mega Man with his projectiles he can fire on the move. Perhaps the first thing we should ask about interesting characters in Smash is "how is this character unfair?" And if your answer is 'nothing', maybe they need some buffs. If your answer is something else, then proceed to ask "is this causing Time-Outs left and right?" If the answer is no, move on to "Is this absolutely dominating tournaments with no viable counter to be found?" If no, then there is no problem.

Others have already pointed out that Miis in their proper form (special sizes, full move list selection... or close to it in this case) didn't even place Top 8. Mind you, placing 13th is impressive on Dapuffster's part (especially since he did it while sick! Again, best of luck to you in getting through that... it's awful), but when he's about the only Mii who got that far, you sound alarmist.

The only way the Miis become viable is if they function as designed. They were designed around open selection by the player. Their entire point is they are fairly straight-forward, easily understood characters who can be fine tuned to suit their user's preferences. They were never designed around the concept of default moves, because every special move they have is either a massive trade-off (HUGE differences in recovery vs. killing potential) or does a completely different job than anything else that Mii has access to. They flat-out do not make sense on 1111-only. Brawler becomes nonfunctional because his specials define his game plan; his normals are primary there for damage racking and the player is supposed to decide how much help they want scoring KOs vs. how much help they want recovering as Brawler.

1111 Swordfighter has a slow close-range projectile, a close-range-movement sort of recovery, a side-B that mostly serves to help get him closer to attack people, and a Counter (a close-combat utility move). 'Close close close close'... who's supposed to be described with that word? Brawler. Why is it applying to a character whose movelist is built around making him a flexible 'decent at everything, great at nothing' sort?

Stop being lazy and learn the matchup, and quit denying Mii players their fun. That's what you're doing, in the pursuit of some misguided definition of 'fair.'

 

[Nexelon]

What about Palutena? She has all her customs as soon as you start the game. Should she get customs too?

The thing is that the Mii Fighters are purposely made for customization while Palutena is just there to represent Kid Icarus along with Pit and Dark Pit. Even so that Palutena's custom moves are highly different than the others, she can't use them if custom isn't on. Palutena is really irrelevant to this topic.

 

[⑨ball]

Can you give me some names of said tourament players?
Or even something to prove it?

What exactly do you want me to prove?

The thing is that the Mii Fighters are purposely made for customization while Palutena is just there to represent Kid Icarus along with Pit and Dark Pit. Even so that Palutena's custom moves are highly different than the others, she can't use them if custom isn't on. Palutena is really irrelevant to this topic.

She's actually very relevant.

If the reason customs are banned comes down to logistics Miis and Palutena should have no issue being allowed. This also opens up the issue as to why other compromises and alternatives can't be reached.

If the reason customs are banned comes down to preference no one should be allowed their customs including Miis and Palutena.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Palutena is definitely off-topic. I say this as someone who plays Palutena and is well aware she gains massive benefits, far more than nearly anyone else, from custom specials.

The game doesn't grant Palutena a special exemption from Customs Off because Palutena is functional and makes sense from a combat design standpoint on 1111, just as most of the rest of the cast except Miis do.

 

[BornABrawler]

Hey, it's me. Sorry it's been a while, but I had honestly forgotten about this thread for about a month or two and it seems to have picked up discussion really well! I appreciate everyone who has posted on this thread and given their thoughts on the topic, positive or negative. And going through most of the recent posts, it would probably be best if I posted my thoughts too, along with some relating topics. So here I go. NOTICE: I may or may not contradict my thoughts on original post, but time has passed, so please keep in mind that my opinions may have changed from then and now. Thank you.

So of course in my personal opinion, I believe Mii Fighters should be allowed to be played at regular non-custom tournaments, with the full potential of all of their moves. Why? Well there are a few reasons:

1. You are cutting out 3 Characters in the game - I suppose it could be argued that fighting games sometimes have banned/removed characters, but for what reason? Well, That's simple. It's usually because they take away from the enjoyment in the competitive scene from the players and the viewers. Do the Mii Fighters take away from the enjoyment of the game in any way? Not as far as I have noticed. And the argument that the Mii Fighters are "OP" is completely opinionated, because the only way to adjust to a character is fight against them, not hide behind a wall and hope no one good ever plays them.

2. People in the competitive scene want them - People like Dapuffster, Neitono, and even M2K wish to play these characters regularly at tournaments. And that doesn't include people who just enjoy to play the character. This is usually because the person prefers to play the character due to the fact that it suits their playstyle. The argument that people only play Mii Fighters to be supported by their "OP" moves arises way too often, and is not supported by facts or information. The claim itself can't really be supported because THE MII FIGHTERS ARE PRACTICALLY REMOVED FROM THE SCENE.

3. They are considered "non-custom" by the game itself - I know in general it's a flimsy argument, but if the game itself supports the Mii's it should be noted. Many people have mentioned the fact that when Customs are set to Off, the Mii Fighter's still retain their customs, which I think is important. And not only that, but in the recent update tournament mode was added, and what do we see separate from each other in the options? Customs and Mii's. So there is obviously evidence of the developers believing that Mii Fighters are just as deserving as any other character, and are not classified as "custom moves" characters.

Another thing to keep in mind is the reason why they are removed. I mentioned it earlier, but what is the reason for Mii Fighters are banned? ...No seriously, can someone please explain to me specifically why they are banned? Is it because they are "OP"? Well with that argument, why don't we ban Sheik? Oh, and I personally think Sonic is OP, so why don't we ban him to? Matter of opinion is not very convincing when there is no outside results to convey it nor support it. The thought of banning a character is selfish anyways, because you are pushing people in the scene out and people who look at the scene away. And If it's because the Mii's themselves take too long to transfer/download, then you are clearly just lazy and arrogant, because you only have to do it once. I am even trying to think of ways to play Devil's Advocate against my arguments, but I can't think of a legitimate reason as to why they are not allowed.

Something else I think should be mentioned recently happened on Twitter. M2K and ANTi had a small arguement about Mii Fighters. This was mentioned in the Twitter conversation:

Anti_SSB: "So you should be able to switch movesets for certain MUs when other chars cant? get the **** outta here"

ANTi isn't entirely wrong when he says that. Playing a different moveset/fighter might give the Mii Fighter player an advantage at a non-custom tournament, though I think it is still an exaggeration. But then SmashCapps commented on the conversation and ANTi replied somewhat positive. Here is the conversation:

SmashCapps: "What if you could use Miis with custom moves BUT where locked to one moveset during a set?"

Anti_SSB: "Thats a bit more appropriate"

I think the main problem with the Mii Fighters are that they don't have specific rules set in place for them. Because they are customizable people assume there is no way to give rules to them. This is not entirely true. Having the Mii's pre-registered on the console using QR codes fixes the issues of having creatable characters; because they are already there. And in all honestly, who would switch from a 2122 Brawler to a 3213 Brawler? The player would likely use a moveset that is best for the character. And while personal preference does exist, why would you not play your character at the best of their ability? In the case that this scenario actually occurs though, having the person locked to the certain moveset would probably be the best resolve. I think this should also be discussed more between TO's and top players so that we have solid and coherent rules.

And while I don't want to get too off topic on this I would like to point out why Palutena should not be discussed in this thread. If you wish to talk about her and customs, feel free to create a separate thread from this one. Please and thank you.

1. It's off topic. This thread is for Mii Fighters.
2. She is required to have "Customs On" to use her other moves.
3. She is a completed character with moves that compliment her overall moveset.
4. She is listed under "Fighters" rather than "Mii Fighters". The two customs are separate.

So after this ridiculously long post, feel free to examine my thoughts as you have done to others. I'll try to explain things that I may not have gone into complete detail on, though I tried my best to explain my reasoning. Thank you!

If it is possible, please post this thread on social media. If we can get more community interaction the thread might have a better chance of making an impact on the Smash 4 scene. The Mii Fighters will have a chance if the community shows their support, but if and only if we spread the word of the topic, and spread it easily through this thread. Thank you once again.

 

[Hippieslayer]

What exactly do you want me to prove?



She's actually very relevant.

If the reason customs are banned comes down to logistics Miis and Palutena should have no issue being allowed. This also opens up the issue as to why other compromises and alternatives can't be reached.

If the reason customs are banned comes down to preference no one should be allowed their customs including Miis and Palutena.

No because Palutena is a regular character who just happens to have her customs unlocked from the get go whereas mii's are mii's. She's not relevant in the least.

On a 49% serious sidenote, should people who think they have the right to ban stuff because of arbitrary whims which don't even make sense be set in chains and sent to slave in some Siberian coal mine until their flesh expires, whereupon their corpses shall be slung into the depths without ritual? Yes!!

 

[FSLink]

Anti_SSB: "So you should be able to switch movesets for certain MUs when other chars cant? get the **** outta here"

ANTi isn't entirely wrong when he says that. Playing a different moveset/fighter might give the Mii Fighter player an advantage at a non-custom tournament, though I think it is still an exaggeration. But then SmashCapps commented on the conversation and ANTi replied somewhat positive. Here is the conversation:

SmashCapps: "What if you could use Miis with custom moves BUT where locked to one moveset during a set?"

Anti_SSB: "Thats a bit more appropriate"

Yeah I don't think anybody would be opposed to this.

Could also be solved by just making you choose your Mii's customs at the same time you're "picking your character". Say, I won with a Mii Swordfighter, I can switch for the next game including the moveset, but I have to do it before my opponent picks their character, I should be able to switch to a different set in the event I lost. Either one works, but I'd say just go with what the community feels is fair for this one.

 

[BornABrawler]

Apologizes. Don't mind this post.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Anti thinks it's a bit more appropriate (but still inappropriate? lol) for mii's to be allowed their full arsenal so long as they stick to one move set per set? Why should anyone care what he thinks?

 

[san.]

Switching movesets is important for Gunner's down B, since the character may be stuck in PSI magnet against a close combat character for the next round. The other characters aren't really affected as much, just Gunner =\

However, if that's the extent needed to make a compromise, I'm completely fine with that (as a last resort lol).


Brawler's hardly even that "jank" anymore considering the patch gave Ike, DK, and Charizard kill combos from throws to an ever expanding list of characters and Brawler lacks range on his entire moveset. Though a ban discussion for tiny Brawler can take place separately to really assess whether he's a potentially banworthy or not.

 

[BornABrawler]

Anti thinks it's a bit more appropriate (but still inappropriate? lol) for mii's to be allowed their full arsenal so long as they stick to one move set per set? Why should anyone care what he thinks?

While I agree his personality isn't... glowing, he does have some logical insight on the game... sometimes. He can sometimes be hit or miss, but his experience in the game is something to recognize.

 

[Auramaniji]

What exactly do you want me to prove?

2. A large or larger amount of tournament players have asked that customs be disallowed. This has nothing to do with logistics, and everything to do with preference being responded to by the TO. In this case customs will usually be set to off, and mii fighters will be restricted to their default sets as per the preference of the majority.

I was going to say
"To prove to me that some or most tournament players who oppose this."
And of course many do, including my state's top ten.
However, there is a much louder and much bigger majority asking for mii to not be classified in a customs environment asking louder than ever before.

 

[Ghostbone]

SmashCapps: "What if you could use Miis with custom moves BUT where locked to one moveset during a set?"

Anti_SSB: "Thats a bit more appropriate"

The way it should work is that you pick your character and specials at the same time.

So if you double blind game 1, you have to double blind your mii brawler and your 1122 setup. You can't wait to see their character before you pick which mii brawler you want.
If you win the first game, they counterpick Battlefield, you then have to choose your mii brawler and your 2122 setup before they choose their character.
Being locked into the same moveset for the whole set is silly, but bypassing our counter-pick set rules by being able to change your character is also silly.

 

[BornABrawler]

Being locked into the same moveset for the whole set is silly, but bypassing our counter-pick set rules by being able to change your character is also silly.

Very reasonable. And this is why I brought it up in the first place, so we decide how Mii Fighters and their movesets would be reasonably handled for picking and counter-picking in a tournament. Though suppose it may have been common sense.

 

[⑨ball]

However, there is a much louder and much bigger majority asking for mii to not be classified in a customs environment asking louder than ever before.

I'd imagine it's just as loud as pro customs in general, but they both still apparently lack something that makes the alteration to the ruleset more valuable than the status quo.

On a 49% serious sidenote, should people who think they have the right to ban stuff because of arbitrary whims which don't even make sense be set in chains and sent to slave in some Siberian coal mine until their flesh expires, whereupon their corpses shall be slung into the depths without ritual? Yes!!

See the problem with this idea however serious it may be is the idea that TOs CAN'T ban stuff because of "arbitrary whims". As a TO you should always have the right to run whatever kind of tournament you want. However, every TO wants people to actually come and play, which is why competitive rulesets tend to stick closer to the grain rather then experiment with things. Tournaments usually run best when players and TOs communicate. It's not exactly a one way process for either side but the decision is always ultimately up to the TO what ruleset to run, and it's always up to the players whether or not to show up.

1. You are cutting out 3 Characters in the game -

2. People in the competitive scene want them -

3. They are considered "non-custom" by the game itself -
[...]
No seriously, can someone please explain to me specifically why they are banned?
[...]
1. It's off topic. This thread is for Mii Fighters.
2. She is required to have "Customs On" to use her other moves.
3. She is a completed character with moves that compliment her overall moveset.
4. She is listed under "Fighters" rather than "Mii Fighters". The two customs are separate.

1. This isn't essentially true. Miis have only been completely banned very rarely. Usually they are simply limited to their default specials set like everyone else. In the rare cases that they are banned, afaik, it's usually to avoid allowing the 3 characters that by pass the custom fighters off setting and should be spoken about with TOs before hand to reach compromise.

2. And they're not the only ones by far. I've spoken multiple times here that I'd much rather see these players stay than go. I also play Mii Gunner so I can sympathize. It's not necessarily a good point, but it's certainly a human one I think people can appreciate.

3. This, I have my doubts about. It'd be more convincing to see data dumps on customs with some type of specific marker for them that miis customs lacks. It might not hold against TOs and public opinion, but it'd at least make the argument worth using. At best we can say that the UI allows Miis their customs. As long as "default" is defined as 'a pre-selected choice (usually by a computer program or system)' we can't really pull the "Miis don't have customs" card in full honesty. It just isn't true. All we know is that Miis have defaults and allowed to used their alternates/customs with customs fighters set to off. This is similar in principle to many characters being able to produce items despite items being set to off. Developers intent is very easy to side with when it's something you want, but won't ever hold as an argument in the competitive scene we have.

Again, it's pretty rare to see Miis banned completely and is something that should be discussed with your TO. Mii's customs are typically banned as an extension to the customs ban. The main reasons for customs bans come down to logistics on smaller scales and preference on larger ones.

@ Hippieslayer @ P Pegasus Knight and @ BornABrawler
1. Palutena is not off topic in the slightest. I know she hurts the Mii argument but as one Mii supporter to another: "THIS WILL NOT SWAY TOS EVER." In fact I'm sure @Jigglymaster mentioned that a TO was a Palutena main and held him to the same rules because of this. If Miis are to be used on the premise that they don't cause logistical issues, Palutena holds true as well. It's that simple. The customs ban isn't the toggle in the corner, it's part of the human ruleset enforced by the TO and if we can't get around that bit, neither Miis nor anyone else will be able to use their customs.

2. Doesn't matter either way because at the end of the day it's still rules outside the game that decide whether their respective customs can be used in tournament.

3. I'm absolutely positive the majority of Palutena mains would argue with you there.

4. True, but their fates in the metagame as far as customs will always be the same in the competitive scene. It's not an issue of what they're classified as but an issue of (mainly) widespread opposition to customs.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Might be able to forgo a lot of the formalities by just loading your fighter via DS transfer, and having to stick with them for at least one set (if the rules sway this way).

If TOs want to be really stingy, they could limit one DS transfer per participant, where applicable. This hopefully isn't the argument settler though.

If anyone argues people playing weird Mii sizes, what's really the worst that could happen? The Mii player moves slower than intended and has more landing lag than intended, but launches equally as far from either party? And in exchange does about +0.3% damage on everything?

Again, it's pretty rare to see Miis banned completely and is something that should be discussed with your TO. Mii's customs are typically banned as an extension to the customs ban.

I know it's very difficult to consider, but I want people to take a moment and understand something very seriously:

From the perspective of players who play as any of the given Mii Fighters, these two ideas, "Miis being banned" and "Mii customs being banned", are exactly the same thing.


Nobody wants to play 1111 Brawler.


NOBODY. Wants to play 1111 Brawler.


NOBODY. WILL EVER. PLAY 1111 BRAWLER.


This isn't a matter of preference; there is no appeal or synergy or kill moves or creative play or reason at all, unless you've been smacked in the back of the head with a railroad spike, to play as this character. They are worse than Palutena. They are worse than Samus. They are worse than Melee Kirby. This isn't a matter of the moves doing too little damage or the endlag or anything relevant -- every other character has been observably fixed in this regard. Regardless of what they do to buff these moves, they are unappealing to use. It's entirely more desirable to quit the game. As two professional players are considering.

Regardless of logisitics, or illusive 'fairness' (to everyone except Mii players, isn't that weird!??!?!?) in the argument, by removing the ability to play a fun and engaging character, you are banning the reason to play them at all.

 

[Auramaniji]

I'd imagine it's just as loud as pro customs in general, but they both still apparently lack something that makes the alteration to the ruleset more valuable than the status quo.


See the problem with this idea however serious it may be is the idea that TOs CAN'T ban stuff because of "arbitrary whims". As a TO you should always have the right to run whatever kind of tournament you want. However, every TO wants people to actually come and play, which is why competitive rulesets tend to stick closer to the grain rather then experiment with things. Tournaments usually run best when players and TOs communicate. It's not exactly a one way process for either side but the decision is always ultimately up to the TO what ruleset to run, and it's always up to the players whether or not to show up.



1. This isn't essentially true. Miis have only been completely banned very rarely. Usually they are simply limited to their default specials set like everyone else. In the rare cases that they are banned, afaik, it's usually to avoid allowing the 3 characters that by pass the custom fighters off setting and should be spoken about with TOs before hand to reach compromise.

2. And they're not the only ones by far. I've spoken multiple times here that I'd much rather see these players stay than go. I also play Mii Gunner so I can sympathize. It's not necessarily a good point, but it's certainly a human one I think people can appreciate.

3. This, I have my doubts about. It'd be more convincing to see data dumps on customs with some type of specific marker for them that miis customs lacks. It might not hold against TOs and public opinion, but it'd at least make the argument worth using. At best we can say that the UI allows Miis their customs. As long as "default" is defined as 'a pre-selected choice (usually by a computer program or system)' we can't really pull the "Miis don't have customs" card in full honesty. It just isn't true. All we know is that Miis have defaults and allowed to used their alternates/customs with customs fighters set to off. This is similar in principle to many characters being able to produce items despite items being set to off. Developers intent is very easy to side with when it's something you want, but won't ever hold as an argument in the competitive scene we have.

Again, it's pretty rare to see Miis banned completely and is something that should be discussed with your TO. Mii's customs are typically banned as an extension to the customs ban. The main reasons for customs bans come down to logistics on smaller scales and preference on larger ones.

@ Hippieslayer @ P Pegasus Knight and @ BornABrawler
1. Palutena is not off topic in the slightest. I know she hurts the Mii argument but as one Mii supporter to another: "THIS WILL NOT SWAY TOS EVER." In fact I'm sure @Jigglymaster mentioned that a TO was a Palutena main and held him to the same rules because of this. If Miis are to be used on the premise that they don't cause logistical issues, Palutena holds true as well. It's that simple. The customs ban isn't the toggle in the corner, it's part of the human ruleset enforced by the TO and if we can't get around that bit, neither Miis nor anyone else will be able to use their customs.

2. Doesn't matter either way because at the end of the day it's still rules outside the game that decide whether their respective customs can be used in tournament.

3. I'm absolutely positive the majority of Palutena mains would argue with you there.

4. True, but their fates in the metagame as far as customs will always be the same in the competitive scene. It's not an issue of what they're classified as but an issue of (mainly) widespread opposition to customs.

If that's the case we have far more drive than tournament players to change the status quo. Also, imagining things doesn't cut it to me, and you can imagine all you want don't get me wrong. Reality will knock on your doors soon enough in due time.

 

[⑨ball]

@ ZarroTsu

Do you honestly believe Mii mains are the only ones that feel like this? There are plenty of players mii and otherwise that don't even consider the default versions and custom versions the same characters. A large amount of players feel that customs bans are the equivalent of not allowing them to participate in the community let alone tournaments.

Unfortunately, none of these reasons work very well for changing minds because players who don't like miis or customs can easily argue the same thing.

It sucks I know, because from both this thread and the opinions on customs after EVO thread, it's very clear that the community at large wants both customs and miis legal and there is only a vocal(apparent) minority in opposition. Despite me disagreeing with the exception to the rule, I think things are heading in a very positive direction for everyone.

If that's the case we have far more drive than tournament players to change the status quo. Also, imagining things doesn't cut it to me, and you can imagine all you want don't get me wrong. Reality will knock on your doors soon enough in due time.

Haha, I hope that you're actually tournament players yourself. I don't really like the idea of people who just watch the game deciding how those of us that actually go to tournaments should play.

Cute little anime-esque thoughts on imagining at the end there lol.

 

[san.]

@ ZarroTsu

Haha, I hope that you're actually tournament players yourself. I don't really like the idea of people who just watch the game deciding how those of us that actually go to tournaments should play.

Cute little anime-esque thoughts on imagining at the end there lol.

I go to tournaments, but I main Ike and secondary miis. A Mii MAIN going to a tournament? You have got to be kiddin me, they can't even play LOL

 

[Dooms]

I go to tournaments, but I main Ike and secondary miis. A Mii MAIN going to a tournament? You have got to be kiddin me, they can't even play LOL

#dapuffsterhype

Seriously though, as a Mii COmain, I'm dropping the game after Mii's get banned (or forced into 1111 since it's the same thing). No reason to play when your character is removed from the game only because people don't want to deal with them. :x

 

[Ghostbone]

Mii mains aren't tournament goers because their character is unfairly banned at every tournament lmao.

At most people are mii secondaries, dapuffster being the exception but he's quitting precisely because his character is banned everywhere.

I guess Palutena mains fall under that but #1, i haven't really heard anywhere near as much outcry about her and #2, she can't be used with customs off anyway.

 

[⑨ball]

I go to tournaments, but I main Ike and secondary miis. A Mii MAIN going to a tournament? You have got to be kiddin me, they can't even play LOL

I know, san. It wasn't so much of a "you don't go to tournaments, you shouldn't get a say" as it was a "lol why are you separating yourself from tournament players".

 

[verbatim]

3. This, I have my doubts about. It'd be more convincing to see data dumps on customs with some type of specific marker for them that miis customs lacks. It might not hold against TOs and public opinion, but it'd at least make the argument worth using. At best we can say that the UI allows Miis their customs. As long as "default" is defined as 'a pre-selected choice (usually by a computer program or system)' we can't really pull the "Miis don't have customs" card in full honesty. It just isn't true. All we know is that Miis have defaults and allowed to used their alternates/customs with customs fighters set to off.

You can't shoot down a logical and completely valid argument because "I haven't read the exact code". If you think that some flag buried deep within the game is different from the UI which specifically says you can use 3211 mii swordsman with customs turned OFF, that's on you to investigate.

Obviously tournament player designed rulesets can override game design, that's why we're having this discussion, and why people specifically ban mii's without 1111 (and sometimes with) in tournaments, because if you don't specifically make a rule saying otherwise, they can do it with a default setup.

This is similar in principle to many characters being able to produce items despite items being set to off. Developers intent is very easy to side with when it's something you want, but won't ever hold as an argument in the competitive scene we have.

IMO the item argument is more pro playable mii's than against. Diddy Kong can generate a banana peel with items turned off, and there is no tourney rule saying Diddy Kong's are not allowed to use down-b, BUT 1312 Gunner can be made with customs turned off, yet some tournaments specifically introduce a rule against it.

I'm not saying player designed rules are bad. Banning specific stages is a huge part of what makes Smash fun to play at a competitive level, and several game breaking glitches were banned at tournaments in Smash 4 Wii U's early days, but Mii Brawler being able to use Feint Jump is in NO WAY comparable to New Pork City/Equipment/Final Smashes. They're not gamebreaking elements that are worth adding an extra arbitrary to the game in order to save competitive play.

 

[⑨ball]

You can't shoot down a logical and completely valid argument because "I haven't read the exact code". If you think that some flag buried deep within the game is different from the UI which specifically says you can use 3211 mii swordsman with customs turned OFF, that's on you to investigate.

The burden of proof is always on the person making the claim. If I tell you Martians exist and live on the moon, it doesn't make it true because you can't prove me wrong.

IMO the item argument is more pro playable mii's than against. Diddy Kong can generate a banana peel with items turned off, and there is no tourney rule saying Diddy Kong's are not allowed to use down-b, BUT 1312 Gunner can be made with customs turned off, yet some tournaments specifically introduce a rule against it.

It's not sadly because items aren't banned. They're set to off per TO preference. Customs however are banned in their entirety. In order to avoid the loophole of certain characters not being affected by the custom fighters off toggle, TOs often add another rule to ensure that all players are limited to their default sets.

CEO had something like:
Custom Fighters set to off
Mii Fighters restricted to 1111

Smash Con iirc uses something like:
Customs are banned
Mii Fighters limited to 1111

I also believe there were size limits in both cases.

The intent with items rule is essentially to remove the random spawning of items and that's done successfully using it's toggle. The intent with the customs ban is most likely to limit all characters to their default set which can't be done with the toggle alone.

 

[Divemissile]

Palutena isn't about customization? What!? Her trailer literally showcased her customs as a part of her! Come on. Also, how is banning mii customs banning them? 1111 mii brawler is bad, but he's still a character. The only people who would agree with this are mii mains who demand special treatment.

 

[verbatim]

The burden of proof is always on the person making the claim. If I tell you Martians exist and live on the moon, it doesn't make it true because you can't prove me wrong.

It's not sadly because items aren't banned. They're set to off per TO preference. Customs however are banned in their entirety. In order to avoid the loophole of certain characters not being affected by the custom fighters off toggle, TOs often add another rule to ensure that all players are limited to their default sets.

You're the one calling it a loophole, not me. No one needed to go digging through the code to make sure Diddy Kong's banana wasn't exactly the same as the one in the items setting in order to contest a "no Diddy Kong down B" TO ban (at least I hope not).

CEO had something like:
Custom Fighters set to off
Mii Fighters restricted to 1111

Smash Con iirc uses something like:
Customs are banned
Mii Fighters limited to 1111

I also believe there were size limits in both cases.

The intent with items rule is essentially to remove the random spawning of items and that's done successfully using it's toggle. The intent with the customs ban is most likely to limit all characters to their default set which can't be done with the toggle alone.

You're assuming that the final game UI runs contrary to the developers intention, which is especially contentious in a game with patches. I'll play along though.


Setting up a blank copy of Smash 4 in order to be a CEO legal console goes as follows

-Unlock and buy all legal characters (and stages, was Dreamland 64 legal?))

-Turn the game mode from time 2 minutes to 2 stock 8 minutes

-Turn items off

-Leave customs set to off

- Leave handicap and knockback set to off and default. Leave stage selection set to choose.

-Turn pause off (I'm assuming)


These are all mechanical changes, after that there are several player imposed rules, namely,


-The stage striking system, which also encompasses legal/illegal stages.

-Sudden death rules

-Legal/illegal controllers

-Mii's can't have 2 or 3 moves.

Banning Mii's from using 2's and 3's in their moveset is NOT a part of the custom ban. It is a separate rule that is listed separately in tournament rules. If you have a no custom tournament, you physically need to tell players that they cannot select 2131 Mii Brawler, the same way you have to tell them they can't pick Great Cave Offense round 1.

Saying that Mii Gunner can't use 2133 with customs off is exactly the same as saying Diddy Kong can't use down b with items turned off. The nitpick looks kind of like something else that people don't like so they introduce a rule banning it. There's plenty of discussion over standardization of Mii's, specifically weight and optimal sets, but people very clearly listening to no one that actually plays or cares about the characters if their ruleset is 1111 only, midweight, midsize.

 

[⑨ball]

You're the one calling it a loophole, not me.

What else should I call something that evades or goes around a rule?
=/

You're assuming that the final game UI runs contrary to the developers intention, which is especially contentious in a game with patches. I'll play along though.


Setting up a blank copy of Smash 4 in order to be a CEO legal console goes as follows

-Unlock and buy all legal characters (and stages, was Dreamland 64 legal?))

-Turn the game mode from time 2 minutes to 2 stock 8 minutes

-Turn items off

-Leave customs set to off

- Leave handicap and knockback set to off and default. Leave stage selection set to choose.

-Turn pause off (I'm assuming)


These are all mechanical changes, after that there are several player imposed rules, namely,


-The stage striking system, which also encompasses legal/illegal stages.

-Sudden death rules

-Legal/illegal controllers

-Mii's can't have 2 or 3 moves.

Banning Mii's from using 2's and 3's in their moveset is NOT a part of the custom ban. It is a separate rule that is listed separately in tournament rules. If you have a no custom tournament, you physically need to tell players that they cannot select 2131 Mii Brawler, the same way you have to tell them they can't pick Great Cave Offense round 1.

I'm not assuming anything because I know developer intent doesn't hold much weight in our competitive community.

Why do you think CEO and Smashcon make it a specific note to mention that custom fighters are set to off? What exactly do you think is the purpose of letting players know that certain toggles are set to off? Do you actually believe that if a Wario main decided to cut customs on for his match he wouldn't be disqualified just because the TO didn't have to specifically turn the toggle for customs off?

I'm half rhetorical and half serious on those questions as I know you're reaching but not sure how far you'd take it. It's enough for the average person to read something simple like "x is set to off" to know that it's meant to be set to off in order to ban what it brings.

Saying that Mii Gunner can't use 2133 with customs off is exactly the same as saying Diddy Kong can't use down b with items turned off. The nitpick looks kind of like something else that people don't like so they introduce a rule banning it. There's plenty of discussion over standardization of Mii's, specifically weight and optimal sets, but people very clearly listening to no one that actually plays or cares about the characters if their ruleset is 1111 only, midweight, midsize.

These two are in no way comparable. You have to keep context in mind.

Why are the items set to off? To prevent random spawning of items ect ect.

Why are custom fighters set to off? To prevent the use of customization ect ect

Diddy's downB does not spawn items randomly. Thus there's no issue and no need for an additional rule against items.
Mii Fighters are not affected by the custom fighters toggle. Thus an additional rule must be made.

In fact specific to CEO they also limited Mii size customization by creating defaults of each class before hand.

I'd think it's pretty clear that the intent here is anti-customization.

 

[verbatim]

What else should I call something that evades or goes around a rule?
=/

Being able to pick Brinstar Depth's in Melee isn't a loophole because it lets you pick a stage that isn't legal.

These two are in no way comparable. You have to keep context in mind.

Why are the items set to off? To prevent random spawning of items ect ect.

Why are custom fighters set to off? To prevent the use of customization ect ect

You can use Mii's with 2131 with customs off. I address the word customization in further detail below.

In fact specific to CEO they also limited Mii size customization by creating defaults of each class before hand.

I'd think it's pretty clear that the intent here is anti-customization.

They picked bad defaults. People would be mad if players were restricted to the default skin, or if you couldn't pick Alph. Obviously this is more important, but the bottom line is that there's a lot of customization EVEN WITH CUSTOMS OFF. You can change your character's color, you can change your name and controller settings, if you're Olimar/Alph you can change your character itself, if you're Wario you can change your skin, if you're a Mii you can have different sizes/weights/moves. Obviously at a big event it's important to have defaults, Evo had the Custom Move Project to set up default custom moveset options. The thing is in this case is that the default's are purposely picked in a way to make them appear to conform to a different rule that's not actually relative and as a result the character's lose a huge part of what makes them unique, to the point that Mii players DON'T GO TO TOURNAMENTS because there's specifically a rule that's made targeting them.


You're attacking three characters because their unique element (kind of like Luma, Mac's KO Punch, etc) seem kind of similar to something else (customs). I'm going to say it again, ATTACKING. Advocating a rule specifically targeting people's main's by changing the rules. We ban stages because certain stages are bad for competitive play, we ban items because they introduce rng, we use Stock because it's preferred to time. Adding a rule making it so that Mii players just about can't play in tournament's seriously is in NO way necessary, it's downright hostile, just like banning Metaknight was in Brawl, except 1122 Mii Brawler (best Mii) != Metaknight.


I'm not going to respond you any more, no one likes thread's that devolve into flame warr. Please feel free to have the last comment, but take the time to reflect on what I'm saying. I'm coming on a bit strong because I care about this, and because I think it sucks that a rule used by most majors pretty much ruins competitive smash for Mii players. Please don't take this as a personal attack, and please don't get personal in response.

Mii's aren't out to ruin your tournament experience, but by being stubborn about what is and isn't a custom move, you sure are ruining tournaments for them.

 

[19_]

SmashCapps: "What if you could use Miis with custom moves BUT where locked to one moveset during a set?"

Anti_SSB: "Thats a bit more appropriate"

@Breets91 @OfficialShofu you said "best set" and then said "arguable", when you can definitively say what set is best come back to me

— Scott (@TheTantalus) August 6, 2015

I just noticed a pattern.

Simplicity is what these people want. The idea of multiple sets almost completely turns them off. There is a reason why 1111 guest mii are only allowed: because it is simple. They don't see multiple different characters, they only see brawler, swordfighter, and gunner. One set for each character. That's it.

Honestly I think we should try to just make one optimal set for each mii fighter and try to make it standard rather than push for fully free miis. I know some may disagree (especially gunners) but I think we shouldn't bite off more than we should chew. It's better to at least try to have these characters viable than push for multiple move selections.

 

[Auramaniji]

@Breets91 @OfficialShofu you said "best set" and then said "arguable", when you can definitively say what set is best come back to me

— Scott (@TheTantalus) August 6, 2015

I just noticed a pattern.

Simplicity is what these people want. The idea of multiple sets almost completely turns them off. There is a reason why 1111 guest mii are only allowed: because it is simple. They don't see multiple different characters, they only see brawler, swordfighter, and gunner. One set for each character. That's it.

Honestly I think we should try to just make one optimal set for each mii fighter and try to make it standard rather than push for fully free miis. I know some may disagree (especially gunners) but I think we shouldn't bite off more than we should chew. It's better to at least try to have these characters viable than push for multiple move selections.

It's good for a foot in the door, but not in the long term. Not allowing total freedom to mii's sets would be a matter of just not learning what mii could do with each custom, or just narrowing down a character to the bare bones and not feeding it anything to eat. Sure the setup time could be simpler under this rule, but nobody ever wanted to be brushed off their character's set like this.

If anything, the first steps to take would to be to run off the Evo sets provided by the Mii sub-fourms and then ease into every special allowed rule after a period of time. Couldn't be more simpler than that.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Honestly I think we should try to just make one optimal set for each mii fighter and try to make it standard rather than push for fully free miis. I know some may disagree (especially gunners) but I think we shouldn't bite off more than we should chew. It's better to at least try to have these characters viable than push for multiple move selections.

A large part of the problem isn't really Mii Gunner; it's Mii Sword.

Mii Sword is very A-button focused, and can win or draw several MUs regardless of exactly what his customs are. This is why 1111 Sword isn't terrible: the moves aren't desirable per se, But each one individually is perfectly fine. The same could be said for all of Sword's moves however -- Unlike Gunner who desires Bombs and Grenade, or Brawler who desires Feint Jump and Helicopter Kick, Sword doesn't really have a move he 'desires' more.

Funnily enough, despite starting as the 'worst character in the game', it's come to light that Mii Sword is actually the biggest Jack of All Trades in the game (except kill throws I guess >>). None of his customs are similar, and you can realistically run any set without issue.

If the other two Miis were as balanced as Mii Sword, it would be very interesting to see which sets are most desirable between any of them. However, as it stands, I guarantee you no two Mii Sword players use the same set. It's entirely up to personal preference.

Which is weird since the Miis are meant to be up to personal prefer-- WAIT A MINUTE.

 

[Epok]

I think it woukd be rather hard to widdle it down to one move configuration. Also size diffences also play a part in that as well. What if we did 3 sizes and 3 configurations? Neither side is always gonna have exactly what they want. But if we want SOMETHING that resembles a solution we have to compromise.

 

[Illuminose]

whatever we do with sets, I want a mii set lock. no counterpicking with sets.

 

[GeneralLedge]

What if we did 3 sizes and 3 configurations?

If it comes to that, we're really going to need a community venn diagram for which customs function better by Mii size.

Plus it also comes to question whether or not size is the aformentioned 0/0, 25/0, 50/0, or some additional weight values between them. I'm almost certain a 50/100 Mii Sword has a better projectile game than a 50/0 -- whether or not this is true to additional damage or better pace-control, I don't know.

There's also the weird micro-management front: At which weight class can we push without detrimental effect to frame data? Does 50/50 lose more than it gains? Does 0/100 gain more than it loses? Does a really specific 25/7 set gain 0.14% damage without any lost frames at all?

These are questions I don't think anyone knows the answer to. We have a vague understanding that height adds range and weight adds damage, but I've seen mixed understanding on which affects what frame data, or how the movement speed is reduced both on the ground and in the air.

Plus, personally, I like playing slower characters. While a 25/0 might be 'optimal' in a super-computer sense, for all I know I might play the game better with a weird-ass 75/75 setup. Maybe other people would play the character better this way too. It boils down to personal preference, a lot, with Miis.

 

[Epok]

Personally I like 0/0, .25/.25 .50/.50. It really comes down to speed vs range. Avg size (.50/.50) I feel is very controllable. Tiny (0/0)is high mobility but small hit boxes. I personally like the .25/.25 across the board on all mii fighters. Good mix of mobility and range.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

And in all honestly, who would switch from a 2122 Brawler to a 3213 Brawler? The player would likely use a moveset that is best for the character. And while personal preference does exist, why would you not play your character at the best of their ability? In the case that this scenario actually occurs though, having the person locked to the certain moveset would probably be the best resolve. I think this should also be discussed more between TO's and top players so that we have solid and coherent rules.

An interesting line of thought. I'd like to comment on a few things.

We'd need more than one move set per character. You won't get much agreement on which one is the best. Brawler comes close, most people believe Uppercut, Onslaught, Helicopter Kick, and Feint Jump is optimal. They're probably right, but I'm legitimately uncomfortable using Helicopter Kick and instead prefer Piston Punch. I can score KOs with it vertically and it recovers slightly better, which makes Brawler play much better to me. I'll gladly play 'that movelist above, but replace the up-B'. Playing what others find optimal in this case would make me hesitate to pick Brawler at all. It's that big a deal to me.

Swordfighter is even more ambiguous. All three of his down-Bs are good moves with legitimate uses; they're a Counter, a Cape, and a Falcon Kick. There is also realistic debate as to whether Skyward Slash Dash or Hero's Spin is the better up-B due to recent balance changes. Neutral B? You'll find plenty of debate on which one to use there too. Same with side-B, all the options have something to offer. You're not going to find any agreement on an optimal Swordfighter.

Gunner likewise. About the only thing most people can agree on is 'Grenades are the best neutral B', and even that is slowly being questioned by a few people thanks to balance changes. After that, it's all over the place.

We'd need more than one moveset of these characters.

As far as 'swapping movesets during a set'... I would say only if the player has created them before the set started. Otherwise it wastes time sending them back to the Mii menu again to make another. They should do it all the first time and then play through. Anti might complain about this, but... his objection is a legitimate question for us to talk through. How far does the Mii Fighter's unique advantage (again, this isn't a bad thing; lots of characters have unique advantages. See Rosalina etc.) go in tournaments? Are we okay with them doing 'same class of Mii, different moves' within the same set, going from a Counter-using Swordfighter to a Reflect/Cape-using one? I would be, but others might not.

 

[san.]

Additionally, Mii fighter's specials receive patches. What's optimal one day may not be the next day. A special move may receive many subtle buffs until people realize that it may compete or exceed the optimal move.

For example, Gunner's grenade is now balanced with his charge shot with the nerfs and buffs received. They offer offensive and defensive variances of play that are pretty much equal with each other.

Swordfighter's chakram used to be so bad that it wasn't recommended on any moveset. Even though shuriken of light received buffs, that move is now situational for sets that don't have chakram. Even though chakram is good now, it still competes with slash launcher since slash launcher becomes active much sooner.

 

[Divemissile]

Is there any specific reason Mii mains should get special treatment? Why can't everyone get customs?