Should Custom Mii's Be Seprated From Fighter Customs?

[Splebel]

Honestly after looking through the past 5 pages there really isn't more anyone can really say. People need to have the same mindset for this to work and because people don't they just restate and shoot down other people's opinion without any reason on their own. It's my opinion that there is no "default" Mii so either let people use Miis in their entirety or not at all. Miis should be viewed as a custom character and not an established character. They only have a generated moveset so the game doesn't throw an error in the code. There always needs to be a default value even if it's not meant to be used. Although in this case it can be used.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

I still haven't gotten a good answer for why miis should get special treatment. Just because they are a different type of character doesn't mean they should get the advantage of customs. Them being able to use customs with customs off is still a bad excuse. The moves are still customs.

You've received tons. I'll repeat them one final time for your benefit.

The Mii Fighters are 'build a character' by their very nature. They do not have defaults. They have menus of choices, like a diner. I'm not forced to order the first burger on the menu, I can scroll down a tad and pick the second or third or fifth choice if I feel like it.

We've illustrated game design level reasons why the Miis do not make sense on 1111 only. Every other character in the game obeys 1111-only in Customs Off because they have coherent game plans on 1111, and every other character but the Miis was designed around a default move list. This should not be confused with what 'tier' they are. Zelda sucks. I can nonetheless tell you how she, on the game design level, is supposed to win. How she's supposed to damage opponents, how she's supposed to KO them, how she's supposed to recover.

I can't do that for Brawler. Sakurai almost certainly didn't design Brawler around 1111. The character winds up being nothing but a series of damage racking tools with no realistic way to score the kill and no mix-ups to secure it; up until absurdly high percentages where he finally can KO throw in very specific circumstances, everything 1111 Brawler can really do to you is answered by 'just press Shield.' He can't recover except along a very specific linear vertical path that has no special advantage to it.

Swordfighter on 1111 just steal's Brawler's gimmick of being overly focused on close combat. I cannot believe Sakurai intended that; "I'm going to make Brawler suck on purpose with 'default moves', then make Swordfighter good at Brawler's gimmick instead!" That sort of failure as a game designer is usually accompanied by a doctor's note excusing it, and Sakurai's not stupid like that.

Gunner at least remains vaguely coherent, but when two out of three of the Miis make no sense on 1111 you have a problem.

1111 Brawler and Swordfighter illustrate the folly of the idea there is a 'default Mii'. They are special characters whose special advantage is 'we pick our moves', much like Rosalina is a character whose special advantage is she gets a Puppet. Much like Little Mac's special advantage is armored smashes. So on and so forth.

This will be the last time I entertain this line of inquiry with you. These are all good answers, and at this point you are either being willfully stubborn, or hopelessly addicted to some artificial standard of 'fairness' because you're too lazy to learn three more matchups. Which is a shame; I expected better of a Competitive Player.

 

[Terotrous]

Absolutely. I've stated a lot of times that I think this is the optimal ruleset.

The game allows Miis to have any moveset under the "custom fighters = off" setting, therefore it should be legal. For logistics I can see why you might restrict them to default height and weight, but there's not much excuse for limiting the customs they can use.


Oh and I'm just going to echo exactly what Pegasus says above. It's fairly clear that that the Mii's moves weren't assigned in any kind of "order". There's nothing special about the 1111 set that denotes it as any kind of default, it's just the moves that happened to be listed first.

Now, you could possibly also make this case for Palutena, as it's not clear that her 1111 set was particularly intended to be her default, but it does have some degree of synergy and the game locks you to it if customs are off.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Relevant reading. A Reddit poll resulted in 73.5% approval in favor of unrestricted Mii customs on default guest Miis. I admit to being surprised, I didn't expect it to get majority support at all never mind such an overwhelming majority.

 

[san.]

Seems there's a general consensus then with a super majority.

Weight+Height seems like a logistical issue, where it's fine for locals and regionals and need to be handled with care at nationals.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Size can be handled through QR codes, or even allowing 3DS transfers. I know I'd be quite willing to pack my 3DS along to send my Mii Fighters over to the tournament station.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Anyone know if there is a difference between Guest sizes, and what they are? At least one Redditor is convinced that all the Guest Miis are "default size" (whatever that means).

 

[Auramaniji]

Size can be handled through QR codes, or even allowing 3DS transfers. I know I'd be quite willing to pack my 3DS along to send my Mii Fighters over to the tournament station

I can agree that size can be handled easily via 3DS transfer, but QR codes need to set up ahead of time because you're going out of smash.

Anyone know if there is a difference between Guest sizes, and what they are? At least one Redditor is convinced that all the Guest Miis are "default size" (whatever that means).

From my knowledge guests Miis are 52/48 and are not 50/50, but that's all I know about difference in sizes for them atm.

 

[kewl]

If we don't allow custom miis, then I suggest we don't allow custom controller settings.

Just my two cents.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

If we don't allow custom miis, then I suggest we don't allow custom controller settings.

Just my two cents.

In fairness, making a new Mii requires exiting Smash entirely. You'd need premade ones to keep things moving.

 

[Tinkerer]

Just let people bring in a single 3DS to put this stuff on if warranted. It's a minor effort.

 

[BornABrawler]

1. This isn't essentially true. Miis have only been completely banned very rarely. Usually they are simply limited to their default specials set like everyone else. In the rare cases that they are banned, afaik, it's usually to avoid allowing the 3 characters that by pass the custom fighters off setting and should be spoken about with TOs before hand to reach compromise.

3. This, I have my doubts about. It'd be more convincing to see data dumps on customs with some type of specific marker for them that miis customs lacks. It might not hold against TOs and public opinion, but it'd at least make the argument worth using. At best we can say that the UI allows Miis their customs. As long as "default" is defined as 'a pre-selected choice (usually by a computer program or system)' we can't really pull the "Miis don't have customs" card in full honesty. It just isn't true. All we know is that Miis have defaults and allowed to used their alternates/customs with customs fighters set to off. This is similar in principle to many characters being able to produce items despite items being set to off. Developers intent is very easy to side with when it's something you want, but won't ever hold as an argument in the competitive scene we have.

Again, it's pretty rare to see Miis banned completely and is something that should be discussed with your TO. Mii's customs are typically banned as an extension to the customs ban. The main reasons for customs bans come down to logistics on smaller scales and preference on larger ones.

1. Palutena is not off topic in the slightest. I know she hurts the Mii argument but as one Mii supporter to another: "THIS WILL NOT SWAY TOS EVER." In fact I'm sure @Jigglymaster mentioned that a TO was a Palutena main and held him to the same rules because of this. If Miis are to be used on the premise that they don't cause logistical issues, Palutena holds true as well. It's that simple. The customs ban isn't the toggle in the corner, it's part of the human ruleset enforced by the TO and if we can't get around that bit, neither Miis nor anyone else will be able to use their customs.

2. Doesn't matter either way because at the end of the day it's still rules outside the game that decide whether their respective customs can be used in tournament.

3. I'm absolutely positive the majority of Palutena mains would argue with you there.

4. True, but their fates in the metagame as far as customs will always be the same in the competitive scene. It's not an issue of what they're classified as but an issue of (mainly) widespread opposition to customs.

Initial Points
1. There is no argument I can make towards this claim because it is entirely true. However I would agree with just about everyone else that banning the Mii Fighter's customs are like banning the entire character. No Mii Fighter can be played to their full potential using 1111, period. It's obvious that they were created with the intent on being customized, so taking that away is essentially defeating the point of the character, and therefore making the character irrelevant.

3. I said in the point earlier that it was a flimsy argument, but I still think it is relevant. Whether it was by accident or purpose the options are in the game. And it is harder to argue against the fact that Mii's and Customs are completely separate in tournament mode, because that in no way could have been an error. I also realize that this would not completely influence the opinion of TO's, because its an online option, but the intent is there. Another thing to mention is that when a Mii Fighter is created, they are placed with a 1111 set. But until you press finish, the moveset can be changed in any way that the player wants. And it is only until the person presses finish does the character become playable on the roster. So the character themselves is not started with a 1111 on the roster, but in the creation stage.

Now let me state something hypothectical. If we went back to the beginning of when Smash 4 was released and fitted the current to rules to match the intial rules, (Or the default game) Mii Fighters would be able to be played and customized without restriction. No exceptions. And until we got to the point to talk about custom moves the rules would stay that way. And though it's all my thoughts and opinions, I think that keeping it that way would be fine, because it doesn't hurt the game nor take anything away from it. Again, all completely hypothetical, but it would make logical sense.
Palutena

1. I see your argument but it still doesn't completely convince me. You can't include Mii's along with Palutena with the customs off argument, because it's the TO's decision. The human ruleset is what we can change, but what we can't change is the option that is integrated into the game itself. (Of course hacking is possible, but we are talking about the original game.) Unless a TO decides differently, Palutena is not allowed to used customs with customs off, so it is impossible for her to change without outside rules specifically for her. And until she is given a rule that enables her she is stuck with her default moves.

2. True. But once again, the game itself hinders her but not the Mii's. Only a TO would be allowed to change her situation.

3. I didn't say that she is the best in her default moves. What I did say though is that she is completed as a character, and that her moves do not conflict with her moveset.

Now in the case of Palutena I cannot disagree that it seems she had customization in mind. In her reveal trailer she was obviously demonstrated using her customs. The fact that she was also provided all of her custom moves at the beginning of the game also points to the fact that she had customization planned for her. But an undeniable fact is that she cannot be played with customs without changing the customs to On.

I really hope that this explains my thoughts and opinions without being too negative. I really want everyone to be happy and feel solace in the game's rules, but in terms of who is more important to the games future is Mii Fighters. If Palutena were to get her customs eventually, that's great. (Though I don't think she needs them as much as the Mii Fighters, and giving her the option of customs would be more of a "privilege", but I digress.) Please, have a nice day.

 

[BornABrawler]

For those of you who have not seen it yet, this link is to a post by CT Chibo on the situation of Mii Fighters. Take a read when you can. http://smash4u.net/the-public-opinion-on-miis-in-smash-4/

 

[⑨ball]

Spoiler: Response

Initial Points
1. There is no argument I can make towards this claim because it is entirely true. However I would agree with just about everyone else that banning the Mii Fighter's customs are like banning the entire character. No Mii Fighter can be played to their full potential using 1111, period. It's obvious that they were created with the intent on being customized, so taking that away is essentially defeating the point of the character, and therefore making the character irrelevant.

3. I said in the point earlier that it was a flimsy argument, but I still think it is relevant. Whether it was by accident or purpose the options are in the game. And it is harder to argue against the fact that Mii's and Customs are completely separate in tournament mode, because that in no way could have been an error. I also realize that this would not completely influence the opinion of TO's, because its an online option, but the intent is there. Another thing to mention is that when a Mii Fighter is created, they are placed with a 1111 set. But until you press finish, the moveset can be changed in any way that the player wants. And it is only until the person presses finish does the character become playable on the roster. So the character themselves is not started with a 1111 on the roster, but in the creation stage.

Now let me state something hypothectical. If we went back to the beginning of when Smash 4 was released and fitted the current to rules to match the intial rules, (Or the default game) Mii Fighters would be able to be played and customized without restriction. No exceptions. And until we got to the point to talk about custom moves the rules would stay that way. And though it's all my thoughts and opinions, I think that keeping it that way would be fine, because it doesn't hurt the game nor take anything away from it. Again, all completely hypothetical, but it would make logical sense.
Palutena

1. I see your argument but it still doesn't completely convince me. You can't include Mii's along with Palutena with the customs off argument, because it's the TO's decision. The human ruleset is what we can change, but what we can't change is the option that is integrated into the game itself. (Of course hacking is possible, but we are talking about the original game.) Unless a TO decides differently, Palutena is not allowed to used customs with customs off, so it is impossible for her to change without outside rules specifically for her. And until she is given a rule that enables her she is stuck with her default moves.

2. True. But once again, the game itself hinders her but not the Mii's. Only a TO would be allowed to change her situation.

3. I didn't say that she is the best in her default moves. What I did say though is that she is completed as a character, and that her moves do not conflict with her moveset.

Now in the case of Palutena I cannot disagree that it seems she had customization in mind. In her reveal trailer she was obviously demonstrated using her customs. The fact that she was also provided all of her custom moves at the beginning of the game also points to the fact that she had customization planned for her. But an undeniable fact is that she cannot be played with customs without changing the customs to On.

I really hope that this explains my thoughts and opinions without being too negative. I really want everyone to be happy and feel solace in the game's rules, but in terms of who is more important to the games future is Mii Fighters. If Palutena were to get her customs eventually, that's great. (Though I don't think she needs them as much as the Mii Fighters, and giving her the option of customs would be more of a "privilege", but I digress.) Please, have a nice day.

1. As someone that played MK in Brawl, I can only chuckle at that perspective, but you're certainly entitled to it. I agree with the bit on potential, but that's essentially true of nearly every character and their customs. Whether it be the ability to optimize or change your customs for a specific match up customs offer nearly everyone a greater depth of potential. I really don't like assumptions on intent because anyone with a basic sense of context in any given situation can give enough "evidence" to support them. I don't necessarily disagree or agree with your opinion, but I do think we should be wary of those types of pitfalls.

3. Again I'm not one to put much stock into assumed intent. That's certainly true, but it's also not exclusive to Miis. Like every other custom character they are created with a base and their default specials and stats(no equipment) in what is essentially temporary data, and only become playable upon saving. This doesn't mean they don't have defaults, rather it's a stronger argument that they are custom characters.

I think you're right actually. If you look at other regions like Japan and Europe you can see that their rulesets occasionally contain Miis and have customs off by preference. Although, it's hard to say if they would have changed if customs had gotten popular and convenient in other regions too. They also didn't have players like Dapuffster making everyone soil themselves so that surely played an influence on our current situation too.
------
Palutena
1. Only it's precisely because it's the TO's decision that the argument holds. If you're playing with friends at home, there is absolutely nothing stopping either of you from picking Palutena with all of her customs. The toggle exists but it's not some omnipotent undefyable god lurking in the corner of our select screen to judge us malevolently. It's just a switch. It's only when a TO says why that switch can't be tampered with that we have a restriction and whatever reason they give will almost always apply to both those Palutena and Miis. You will never have to create extra or outside rules unless you create a rule in the first place disallowing customs.

2. See above or tl;dr: The game is not preventing us from using customs, it will ALWAYS be the TO and the reason behind this prevention will almost ALWAYS be applicable to both Miis and Palutena.

3. It's hard to argue that anyone's specials conflict with their moveset. Usually it's a matter of synchronicity between them and a more coherent/flowing/understandable game plan. I still stand by my statement that you'll be able to find plenty of Palutena mains who do not believe her default set compliments her moveset.

The only characters we can actually suggest may not have had customization in mind are the DLC characters. We tend to talk a lot about developer intent and so on in these conversations while dancing around the idea that we change so many default settings and have so much variety available to us. If I had to take a guess I'd bet that when questioned Sakurai would say he intended everyone's customs to be used, and all equipment, and all stages and so on. I'm also certain he'd say something for Miis along the line of wanting each created one to function as it's own character, rather than alternate specials for a single one. We've got a lot of very fun ways to play available to us that were very likely intended, but at the end of the day we're still scrambling around trying to find the ways that are the most fun to the most amount of people. And yes, that is an undeniable fact, it just holds little value as a concept standing alone like the undeniable fact that you can't play stocks with the rules toggle set to time.

I feel like you've been very clear and positive, which is certainly appreciated as I understand fully well how passionate players are and how abrasiveness/obnoxious I can come off at times. With the support for customs still looking alive, I can see good things in the future for everyone. Even if the meta eventually splits, Miis are looking good down the line.

The next big tournaments I looked into [Paragon and Big House] are customs free and restrict Mii size, but with CT likely holding free Mii tourneys, there's a good chance the influence will spread.

 

[verbatim]

Paragon put up a Facebook poll to gauge user response to their mii rules, and so far the votes are overwhelmingly anti 1111 clause. Whether or not that will sway the official ruleset remains to be seen, but they did update their ruleset to clarify how suicide clause will work when they were asked about that.

 

[Auramaniji]

Paragon put up a Facebook poll to gauge user response to their mii rules, and so far the votes are overwhelmingly anti 1111 clause. Whether or not that will sway the official ruleset remains to be seen, but they did update their rule set to clarify how suicide clause will work when they were asked about that.

The Poll is currently over as of right now, however it left a huge controversy on paragon and future rule sets.
Highlights/Recap

• Dapuffster currently suggested that a voting process take place for tournament attendees only to decide on Miis.
• Zero isn't pro-mii and doesn't really like smawler. Saying

  Really hope Miis are limited to standard, 1111 at paragon...

  and

  I just think small mii brawler is ridiculous.

  Read more about it here.
• Dustin Rice, top 8 player of Socal, loses his stuff.

On the voting process...

I think the voting process however is really awful ATM. I won't be attending a tournament if the attendees have an unfair majority of a ratio to 100:1. It is the exact opposite for online polls however, as people clearly want Mii playable in tournaments and nearly win by a landslide.

I think the best course of action would be to still aim for larger tournaments and get #freemii in as soon as possible to avoid any major conflicts in the future. By the time that the poll was setup, paragon only had three days left before registration was CLOSED. Next time, TO's should set up Mii polls in major tournament ahead of time so players won't be easily disgusted, and If they really had priority for this issue they would take in it into consideration long before this even occurred.

 

[verbatim]

IDK what was up with Dustin, but he was in the poll swearing at the top of his lungs at everyone for everything. IDT that's really a fair reason to say no. I agree with your overall point though, this is campaign that should be aimed at future events, not one's that are nearly upon us (Apex 2016?).


I also don't like the argument "zero doesn't like them". If he legitimately thinks that small Brawler is broken, which is debatable (Dappufster took top 32 at EVO, Nientono didn't get out of pools, etc), I would wager that most Mii proponents would be okay compromising to default size mii's (which iirc removes a few dthrow combo's in the case of Brawler iirc). Making them 1111 is incredibly overkill and ruining the ability of people to compete at all.

 

[Auramaniji]

IDK what was up with Dustin, but he was in the poll swearing at the top of his lungs at everyone for everything. IDT that's really a fair reason to say no. I agree with your overall point though, this is campaign that should be aimed at future events, not one's that are nearly upon us (Apex 2016?).


I also don't like the argument "zero doesn't like them". If he legitimately thinks that small Brawler is broken, which is debatable (Dappufster took top 32 at EVO, Nientono didn't get out of pools, etc), I would wager that most Mii proponents would be okay compromising to default size mii's (which iirc removes a few dthrow combo's in the case of Brawler iirc). Making them 1111 is incredibly overkill and ruining the ability of people to compete at all.

I'd rather go default to restrict the size as well. You can take tiny and large but don't just ban mii entirely, that's really not looking into mii fairly at all.

Also on the subject of tiny, he is annoying personally to me a bit. I played a few matches with it using my TallThin mii and I was severely outclassed in my grab game and frame data. However, that didn't stop me from winning. I figured the best strategy was to stay far away from tiny and weave in and out for quick hits, and waiting for a shot to use a B special or smash attack to end his stock quickly.

 

[kewl]

In fairness, making a new Mii requires exiting Smash entirely. You'd need premade ones to keep things moving.

But you can limit the sizes to default.

Changing a default guest mii's moveset is quicker than changing controller settings.

 

[san.]

Or you can enforce a transfer or use default size rule and make the most people happy with little drawback.

 

[TheSquirrelKid]

I honestly think Miis should be kept at default sizes, as it makes it easier for TOs and the player base for simplicity.

 

[wizrad]

There is no such thing as a "default size" until we create one. If you mean guest Miis, there is no indication in game saying that they are what is considered "default". They aren't even acknowledged, because there is no "default" anything for Miis. Am I saying we should let players close Smash and make Miis of any size they want mid-set? No, not at all. What I'm getting at is that Mii mains to decide what "default" should be. Once the decision is made, the TO should make one Mii for each Fighter, each of its Mains' chosen sizes and moves, on a 3DS and then import them to each of the systems being used for the event. This is as fast or faster than creating a new Mii for each fighter on every system from guests.

 

[san.]

I'd rather the TOs not do any extra work. Guest miis, make the mii players transfer, or let the mii players quickly make miis at the very start of the tournament way before brackets begin.

 

[wizrad]

I'd say that's more than fair enough.

 

[Yikarur]

In germany we decided to use Guest Mii's only.
This is consistent because Guest Mii's are on every console.
Every set-up should have the same conditions. Additionally no special treatments in form of arbitrary choices should been made. (Pre-Made Small Mii's for example).
Transfering should not be an option as well, because it's not fesible to need to own a 200$ console to play a character.

It's hard enough to tell people that 1111 is the most stupid solution. But no one would support pre-Made-Mii's.

It really hurts me inside, because I'm maining Mii Brawler but Guest Mii's are the only consistent solution.

 

[wizrad]

Guest Miis are arbitrary, tiny is competitive for Brawlers, half-short and skinny is competitive for others. Competitiveness is the entire focus of this community, not time constraints or ease of access.

 

[Yikarur]

Guest Miis are arbitrary, tiny is competitive for Brawlers, half-short and skinny is competitive for others. Competitiveness is the entire focus of this community, not time constraints or ease of access.

How is it arbitrary to use the only thing every console has access to?
Calling tiny competitive is arbitrary, because we have no right to pass a judgment on it.
Competitive is one focus, consistency is another focus. Fairness and equal distributions as well are important.
- Small Mii Brawler is no accessible on every WiiU console
- You have to own a 200$ device for transfer
- You need to quit the game to actually create the character, but most WiiUs at a tournamnt don't even have a gamepad with it and connecting a gamepad is a pain.
- Time contraint are important, if everyone takes 10 Minutes to actually create their character before the game starts, you'll delay the tournament by a lot.

Guest Mii's are on every Smash Bros. Wii U Save Game. They are globally the same. You can go to a set-up and go.
It's important to have a consistency among set-ups.

 

[san.]

I think that's another discussion, though both sides can be seen as reasonable.

Personally, I view having to use guest Miis as the worse-case and transferring to be OK since it's on the onus of the mii player, no creating outside of small locals.

 

[Yikarur]

We should focus on making the Guest Mii with any move legal in an custom off environment, because there are a lot of major tournaments that still do the 1111 restriction. This has to stop.

 

[Ghostbone]

Small miis are accessible on every console, they just require you to make them, which is a potential time constraint in a large tournament sure, but it's not like it's an unfair competitive advantage or anything.
And TOs already have to spend time getting all the DLC, making a 0/0 and 25/0 mii isn't that much extra time if you want them premade before the tournament.

But I agree that guest miis are the easiest solution right now, and in an environment where 1111 is the only set legal in most places, having miis be allowed to use all their moves is the top priority. Size is less of an issue and can potentially come later.

 

[wizrad]

0/0 and 25/0 Miis are perfectly accessible. It takes less time to make two Miis on each console than to unlock every character. The complaint that it takes too much time is total BS. Still, I agree that getting specials legalized is the first step. If the tournaments around here don't switch soon, I might give up and start actually learning Luigi ):

 

[nodle]

Eh.... I'm of the opinion that the solution is to just let customs be used in general. I honestly don't see any difference between letting Mi's use customs and letting other players use customs. The weird double think I see in this thread attempting to justify Custom moves, but only for Mi's is absurd.

There is ultimately only one reason to be in favor of letting customs be used by mi's. Customs make Mi fighters viable. There is no shame in wanting customs because they make a character viable. More viable characters means a more diverse and fun metagame.

Know lets go through some arguments...

1. There is no argument I can make towards this claim because it is entirely true. However I would agree with just about everyone else that banning the Mii Fighter's customs are like banning the entire character. No Mii Fighter can be played to their full potential using 1111, period. It's obvious that they were created with the intent on being customized, so taking that away is essentially defeating the point of the character, and therefore making the character irrelevant.

Most characters can't be played to their full potential without customs. This is not a unique trait of Mii fighters. The go to example here is Palutena; a totally trash character with 1111 who becomes viable with customs on.

Any discussion of what the game's creators intended with the game is totally pointless. The creator of the smash series never wanted for the games to be competitive. Wavedashing wasn't intended to be a thing. MK wasn't supposed to be the only playable character in brawl. We are deciding the rules for tournaments, not Nintendo. What Nintendo wants or wanted is irrelevant.

 

[Myed]

Most characters can't be played to their full potential without customs. This is not a unique trait of Mii fighters.

However, an unique trait to Mii fighters is that they have access to all of their moves even with the custom switch turned off, hence why we're having this discussion on whether customs off=custom switch off, or customs off=custom moves off (no miis).

 

[nodle]

However, an unique trait to Mii fighters is that they have access to all of their moves even with the custom switch turned off, hence why we're having this discussion on whether customs off=custom switch off, or customs off=custom moves off (no miis).

So you're of the opinion that the debate hinges on the UI decisions of Nintendo game designers?

 

[ZarroTsu]

Game allows it, only players disallow it. Why, nobody seems to know. Lazy TOs, lazy players, lazy learners.

We're too busy worrying to do anything of substantial effect. Smash 4 is by far the most paranoid community I've ever witnessed.

 

[Myed]

So you're of the opinion that the debate hinges on the UI decisions of Nintendo game designers?

Alright, I'll elaborate.

Why not? They did make special exceptions for Miis for a reason.

Every smash game, its been 'innocent until proven guilty'. We've always gone with Nintendo's rules until they proved to be hindering competition.
See: Items in Brawl, The origin of Stage Striking, Stock over Time, Team Attack in doubles, etc. Note how theres plethoras of reasoning behind them.

Customs have been outed by the sm4sh tournament scene, but the Miis remain as specified to be 'not customs' by the switch. Because of this, we should be considering the Miis ban completely separate from the customs ban.

Refer back to the 'innocent until proven guilty'.

Do the Miis add anything degenerate enough to consider banning?

Shiek still dominates them, specials or no specials, so I believe they're fine.

 

[Charey]

Ignore this,

 

[nodle]

snip

For the record I agree with you. I think mii's should be allowed to use customs. I just think its dumb to argue that mii customs are any different from palutena's (or any other character's) customs on the basis of the UI.

Ignore this,

Sounds good

 

[Myed]

Except customs haven't been proven guilty, they haven't even had a real chance with TOs going back to banning them after EVO with no reasons given.

Yeah, the Sm4sh banning policies have been...iffy at best. I really cant find reasoning behind bans besides 'it wasnt at APEX' and the oh-so-popular 'no-skill janky pos'.

This is why you see all the threads like these and 'why is wuhu/skyloft banned' or 'why 2 stock instead of three' pop up all the time. Because we dont know, and theres thoughts of many many things being optimal.

But I digress. None of this discussion matters anyway, its going to be near impossible to get something unbanned at this point. The locals copy the Apex ruleset from the majors to prepare, while the majors copy the Apex ruleset from the locals for familiarity. It's going to take a big push to break the cycle, and the way the majority's pointing, its just not going to happen.

But because of the confusion around Miis, there is still a glimmer of hope. People pushed for Miis at Paragon (iirc), people like Dapuffster and Trela are pulling off amazing things with them, building hype, more and more players have been pushing miis at locals. This wave of hype is honestly the best shot miis have at surviving viability.

But with ZeRo pushing against Miis as hard as he is, I honestly doubt it. But hey, theres a chance.

 

[Yikarur]

Where is Zero pushing against Mii's?

And yes, Mii's are different then normal fighters. You're allowed to play the Mii as created.
Mii's are a custom fighter, every move of Mii's are custom moves.
So you can go two ways:
you ban them completely or you allow them with any move. (like the tournament mode does)
Everything inbetween is arbitrary. Everything inbetween is an intervention by us. Interventions by us should be reasonable. (like Sudden Death not played out) and not arbitrary limiting something to one Option out of 81.

Everything else goes by the game. We don't restrict stuff artifically.