Should Custom Mii's Be Seprated From Fighter Customs?

[Rashyboy05]

Where is Zero pushing against Mii's?

And yes, Mii's are different then normal fighters. You're allowed to play the Mii as created.
Mii's are a custom fighter, every move of Mii's are custom moves.
So you can go two ways:
you ban them completely or you allow them with any move. (like the tournament mode does)
Everything inbetween is arbitrary. Everything inbetween is an intervention by us. Interventions by us should be reasonable. (like Sudden Death not played out) and not arbitrary limiting something to one Option out of 81.

Everything else goes by the game. We don't restrict stuff artifically.

He seriously thinks Mii Smawler is broken. That's it. No other reason. Just that he thinks that Mii Smawler is broken. No arguments against Mii Gunner nor Mii Swordfighter. Just Mii Smawler.

 

[wizrad]

And yet he played Diddy Kong until his nerf, then switched to Sheik. Who's broken, again?

 

[Rashyboy05]

And yet he played Diddy Kong until his nerf, then switched to Sheik. Who's broken, again?

In all honesty. While I like ZeRo. The moment he began complaining about Lucario's Aura and Luigi, I began to slowly stop taking his opinion seriously. I completely stopped taking him seriously when he began campaigning that Miis shouldn't be allowed to use their free movesets in Paragon.

 

[Yikarur]

Thats really stupid. The Reward Mii gets is ridiculous but the character is still considered worse than Sheik and so not broken at all. (or equally broken as something already allowed with no problems)

 

[Raijinken]

I'm just going to chime in for the first time since page 1 and say that I still think Miis should be legal and unrestricted.

Guest Miis are arbitrary, tiny is competitive for Brawlers, half-short and skinny is competitive for others. Competitiveness is the entire focus of this community, not time constraints or ease of access.

I wish more people thought like we do.

 

[wizrad]

Me too. I really don't understand the reasoning for guest Miis. If it made sense, I wouldn't challenge it even though it makes my main much worse. I guess it's easier than making one or two Miis, but the competitive scene was not built around ease of use. At least, it didn't seem like it was until Smash 4 came along with Miis. I knew that there would be backlash against these characters, but not like this. It's really disheartening.

 

[san.]

Problem for me is that I may use both Gunner and Swordfighter and have multiple sets for each. Do I really have to create 4-5 miis each time or can I just transfer once?

 

[wizrad]

I think just switching the moves around is faster than uploading a new Mii.

 

[AEMehr]

You need to keep in mind that each Mii won't be alterable if they weren't originally made on the system. So if you transferred your Mii early on to the system's Mii Maker, yeah you're good to alter it as opposed to just trying to transfer like three Mii Fighters.

Though, I would probably just transfer one of each type that you play instead of multiple sets of the same one. Because iunno if being able to switch your special set on the fly like that would be really fair to the other player.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Moreover, just a hunch, I don't think locals will delete Miis after the fact. In fact, I can't fathom a reason why nationals might either.

You do it once (per WiiU). You're done forever.

 

[AEMehr]

My local hasn't, and some guy added every Mii on his 3DS to a couple stations.

 

[Myed]

Where is Zero pushing against Mii's?

No one posted what he actually said yet, so:
'I really hope Miis are limited to standard, 1111 at paragon'

'It's not [simple-minded], I just think small Mii Brawler is ridiculous'

'Why? Customs should not be allowed period for anyone, don't cherry pick it. Also, letting them chose sizes is ridiculous (unbalanced)'

So yes. hes made it very clear he is venemently against miis.

 

[nodle]

So yes. hes made it very clear he is venemently against miis.

Zero is selfish, even if he doesn't know it. The truth is that Zero would thrive in a meta dominated by a single character. Then he only needs to learn one matchup, the mirror. The mirror is by definition a 50-50 matchup, meaning that the only variable left to decide who wins is player skill. Zero is a very skilled player, so he wins. Diversity is bad for Zero. Zero wants another MK situation. (at least subconsciously)

 

[wizrad]

I don't think it's subconscious at all. ZeRo just wants to win. He doesn't really have fun playing anymore, so he doesn't want to practice the Mii matchups.

 

[Ghostbone]

lol why does every thread on smashboards at some point devolve into Zero hate.
"He doesn't really have fun playing anymore"
AHAHAHAHA you can't be serious

Anyway yea his opinions on miis is pretty dumb, I guess people need to talk to him about it, since he's still throwing them together with customs.

 

[wizrad]

I mean, if you can give up practicing almost completely, then I assume it's because you don't find the game enjoyable anymore.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

ZeRo runs Sheik and Diddy. He has absolutely no room to talk about 'unbalanced' or 'ridiculous.'

 

[ZarroTsu]

My psychic prediction:

As soon as Sheik gets properly adjusted (or ruined, which ever), Zero'll drop Sheik and advocate for Mii Fighters so he can play Smawler.

 

[Rashyboy05]

My psychic prediction:

As soon as Sheik gets properly adjusted (or ruined, which ever), Zero'll drop Sheik and advocate for Mii Fighters so he can play Smawler.

There is Luigi and ZSS in the option list though.

 

[ZarroTsu]

There is Luigi and ZSS in the option list though.

They have weaknesses though. Smawler is infallible and pure and godlike. So sayeth the meta.

 

[dav3yb]

So for the tournaments that allow Mii's in any configuration... do they also allow a variety of sizes? Or do they generally just stick to one (either an optimal size/weight or the standard from the guest mii's)

The thing i would hate to have is one person needing to back out of the game to create some Mii character of X height and Y weight in the middle of a tournament.

 

[ZarroTsu]

If the tournament allows imports, they should expect any size, unless it's only the Mii getting imported into Mii Maker.

If it's the Mii getting imported into Mii Maker, the TO can regulate however they deem appropriate. It's this step where, if Smawler is such an "unstoppable force", the TO would say "No you can't have 0/0, set that to 25/0, minimum".

At the moment though, this is wishful thinking I can only conclude with a shrug.

If it's a worry about backing out, the TO goes "No editing Miis mid-match". Which I think most people would be fine with.

 

[Rashyboy05]

So for the tournaments that allow Mii's in any configuration... do they also allow a variety of sizes? Or do they generally just stick to one (either an optimal size/weight or the standard from the guest mii's)

The thing i would hate to have is one person needing to back out of the game to create some Mii character of X height and Y weight in the middle of a tournament.

The Mii sizes have to be pre-made before the tournament. You can also import the fighters from the 3DS which is much faster. It depends on the tournament really. Some allow free reign on sizes while some restrict to medium sized Miis.

 

[dav3yb]

This is where im so on the fence about mii's. If i pick any other character in the tournament, im completely limited to what their size/weight is, and their default moves deemed proper by the dev's. When you throw Mii's in the mix, they get a multitude of options that the other characters don't have. I wouldn't mind, if say, there were a single, or even 2 or 3 "optimal" builds for each Mii fighter (each with a consistent height/weight).

If that weren't the case, if i were to allow mii fighters in any configuration a player might want, i would feel i'd have to limit it to the default guest mii's on the system, or the defaults + one that might be "optimal" that isn't difficult for anyone to setup themselves with no chance of minor variance (small/slim, mid/mid, tall/heavy)

 

[Raijinken]

I still find it laughable that Tiny Brawler is ridiculous for Helicopter Kick but Sheik isn't for the vastly superior Bouncing Fish, on top of better neutral and recovery.

While I'd prefer variable sizes be allowed, I can see limiting it to one, or one per type.

I do think swapping movesets mid-set should either be disallowed or require an off-character swap first. Mii customs are clearly intended as part of their designs, but that ability to change moves isn't really something other characters have unless you swap from Pit to Dark Pit.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Idk why miis are considered centrally their own character instead of an outlet to infinity.

Miis aren't the character, the thing you make using them is the character.

Black Knight, Chrom, Lloyd, K.rool, Inklings, Akira, Jackie, Flying man, KK Slider, Zero, Megaman.exe, Heihachi, Isabelle, X, Protoman, Dunban, Ice T, and Abe Lincoln. Are they all the same height and weight?

 

[Raijinken]

Idk why miis are considered centrally their own character instead of an outlet to infinity.

Miis aren't the character, the thing you make using them is the character.

Black Knight, Chrom, Lloyd, K.rool, Inklings, Akira, Jackie, Flying man, KK Slider, Zero, Megaman.exe, Heihachi, Isabelle, X, Protoman, Dunban, Ice T, and Abe Lincoln. Are they all the same height and weight?

It would be exceedingly interesting if someone took canon/reality-based weights and heights for these characters and set them in relative scale to each other.

But since that isn't happening, yes, they're all the same weight.

 

[dav3yb]

Tall/Heavy black knight, all of the hardest hitting moves, name is "the Mountain"? ...

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Geez. Can you imagine? Imagine if they require Miis to be 1111-only, max size. "To be fair," of course.

 

[Steelballray]

Well, if they aren't OP and/or not a pain set up there shouldnt be a reason to ban them.

..Although I find them to be more of an eyesore than customs and wouldn't mind them getting banned.

 

[FSLink]

This is where im so on the fence about mii's. If i pick any other character in the tournament, im completely limited to what their size/weight is, and their default moves deemed proper by the dev's. When you throw Mii's in the mix, they get a multitude of options that the other characters don't have. I wouldn't mind, if say, there were a single, or even 2 or 3 "optimal" builds for each Mii fighter (each with a consistent height/weight).

If that weren't the case, if i were to allow mii fighters in any configuration a player might want, i would feel i'd have to limit it to the default guest mii's on the system, or the defaults + one that might be "optimal" that isn't difficult for anyone to setup themselves with no chance of minor variance (small/slim, mid/mid, tall/heavy)

I'd argue that they have a multitude of options because that's how they were designed, they are allowed in any configuration even with the in-game toggle set to "Customs OFF". Setting them to 1111 only is going against how they were designed. Ban them because they're "custom characters" if the community feels that way, but I do think 1111 is basically soft-banning them, as any Mii main would mostly find the 1111 sets undesirable, Mii Swordfighter is the only one who has an okay gameplan with 1111.

However, I really think a "Mii Fighter Project" like the EVO sets would make the most sense. Or even use the same sets from the Custom Moveset Project. Most people would likely use the "optimized" sets, and anybody who wants to be unique and/or experimental with sets could just import, and those people will be very few. The Mii Fighter Project could even add some QR codes for some of the Mii costumes. Want to use a pre-made Chrom, Lloyd, or whoever with an optimized Mii moveset? Use the QR code for easy access.

Allowing creation of Miis and imports of Miis outside of this Mii Fighter Project could be allowed depending on the size/scope of the tournament.

If there's any interest in this, someone should definitely make it, or I could do it if nobody else is willing to.

 

[Raijinken]

I'd argue that they have a multitude of options because that's how they were designed, they are allowed in any configuration even with the in-game toggle set to "Customs OFF". Setting them to 1111 only is going against how they were designed. Ban them because they're "custom characters" if the community feels that way, but I do think 1111 is basically soft-banning them, as any Mii main would mostly find the 1111 sets undesirable, Mii Swordfighter is the only one who has an okay gameplan with 1111.

However, I really think a "Mii Fighter Project" like the EVO sets would make the most sense. Or even use the same sets from the Custom Moveset Project. Most people would likely use the "optimized" sets, and anybody who wants to be unique and/or experimental with sets could just import, and those people will be very few. The Mii Fighter Project could even add some QR codes for some of the Mii costumes. Want to use a pre-made Chrom, Lloyd, or whoever with an optimized Mii moveset? Use the QR code for easy access.

Allowing creation of Miis and imports of Miis outside of this Mii Fighter Project could be allowed depending on the size/scope of the tournament.

If there's any interest in this, someone should definitely make it, or I could do it if nobody else is willing to.

In all my experience with custom characters in other games, I can't think of any (my experience is limited, to be entirely fair) that were actually unique characters as Miis are.

Of course, as much as I like the idea of having pre-set and identifiable Mii fighters based on the costumes, remember that every costume that is specifically based on a character is DLC, and while most people have Characters, and many people have Stages, far fewer have those costumes.

I'd support a Custom Mii Project either way. The balance patches, Customs Off playability, and Tournament Mode legality all suggest that they are intended as usable characters. Full moveset choice is necessary, full size choice may be compromisable in the lack of a Mii Project.

 

[wizrad]

The Custom Moveset Project already created Miis downloadable by QR code for Mii fighters to use. They're in what's generally considered to be each Mii's optimal configuration. 0/0 and 50/50 (not actually necessary) for Brawler, 25/0 for the other two.

Here are my suggestions, from most conservative to most liberal:
a) Create one 'standard' set for each Mii, chosen by their mains, to be used by anyone who chooses the character. This includes both special moves and sizes.
b) Allow the Miis all of their special moves/sizes, however, once you've chosen a set, you're locked into it for however long the community feels desirable, from the rest of the set to the rest of the tournament.
c) Allow everything, but switching set/size/Mii counts as switching characters during a set.

A is what I'd prefer, I've posted elsewhere about it. B is similar to how Japan does their tournaments; once you've chosen a character, you must stay that character. C is how I would handle it if everything was legal and allowed to be switched between.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Item B creates extra paperwork for TOs having to track which iteration of each Mii type you used. "Your Brawler was 0-0 2213, your Swordfighter was 25-0 1131, and your Gunner was 25-0 1112? Alright, make sure you stick to those because I will be watching you." - No way this works at a major.

Honestly, we should give option C a try until it proves to be an actual problem. We tried Items until they proved to be an actual problem. We tried 75m until it proved to be an actual problem (this took about 15 seconds, admittedly!). Why not try open Miis with imports and see if it actually causes any real trouble? Educate people about 0-0 Brawler with Helicopter Kick, tell them to just avoid getting grabbed near the edge and maybe not take Brawler to Smashville, you have 4 to 8 other legal stages in most other venues, give those a try.

 

[wizrad]

B would've been more of an honor code thing, or your opponents should have to call you out if they notice.

 

[Raijinken]

To the best of my knowledge, there's no penalty for swapping characters, and most tournaments allow it freely, though at specific points in the process. So the "counts as a character swap" rule only really matters if you're the winning player, since you have to declare before your opponent whether you're swapping or not.

 

[ZarroTsu]

B would've been more of an honor code thing, or your opponents should have to call you out if they notice.

Smoke pellets are the new meta.

 

[FSLink]

Of course, as much as I like the idea of having pre-set and identifiable Mii fighters based on the costumes, remember that every costume that is specifically based on a character is DLC, and while most people have Characters, and many people have Stages, far fewer have those costumes.

Well of course, I merely suggested it as a convenience option for those who have them. But then I realize that the QR codes are already available on the DLC pages on Nintendo's website for the most part, so that could just be linked.

 

[Raijinken]

Well of course, I merely suggested it as a convenience option for those who have them. But then I realize that the QR codes are already available on the DLC pages on Nintendo's website for the most part, so that could just be linked.

Those include variable Mii sizes, not just the faces, interestingly.
Not that they can't be copied and edited, though.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

But then I realize that the QR codes are already available on the DLC pages on Nintendo's website for the most part, so that could just be linked.

Where? I'm curious to see this listing, it would have saved me a lot of trouble of creating relevant Miis for DLC costumes I bought.